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Posted by: SirAndy May 2 2006, 04:50 PM

"Did Gugelot design the 914 as claimed by some lately and printed in a few so called expert Publications?"


here's what DGVWPB (Das Grosse VW-Porsche Buch) has to say about this topic on page 23 (scan attached):

==========================
There's a lot of talk and Rumors

The History of the Design of the 914 has often been connected to the Designer Hans Gugelot.
The Source for the worldwide spread of this mis-information is, in retrospect, the Porsche "Bible",
Karl Ludvigsens book "Porsche - Geschichte und Technik der Renn- und Sportwagen".

Quote from his Book:
"How did a car have to look like that on one hand had to fit into the VW Model-Line and
at the same time had to have the signature touch of Ferry Porsche.
For marketing reasons the car had to be different from the current Porsche Model-Line.
There was no intention to simply copy an existing design ... to solve this without bias,
it was decided to outsource the design to the company Gugelot."

Inquiries with the Porsche Factory, personal talks with Ferdinand Alexander Porsche, the head
of the Porsche Design Studios at the time as well as talks with employees of the Gugelot Company
did, however, not verify Ludvigsens theory. Gugelot was never commissioned with the Design of
the 914. Furthermore, Porsche did not use the Gugelot-Auto as the base or template of their own Design.

Ferdinand Alexander Porsche:
"Gugelot never did anything to the Car! They had a car that had a few similarities with the 914,
that's all. The most one could do is to point out those similarities, but Gugelot had nothing to do with the Car.
It's always the same, there's a lot of talk and rumors, like when people say that my grandfather once worked for Renault ..."

Some Background:
In the early 60s, Gugelot together with the Bayer-Werke designed a plastic car that was based on a BMW.
Like the 914, this car separated itself from others through it's clear-cut lines. The car pictured in
Ludvigsens "Bible" and wrongly labeled the "Gugelot-Auto" was in fact a one-off prototype that never
made production. In addition, quite a few other Car designs of that area show similarities to the
Gugelot-Car and the 914, like the pictured Fiat 2300 with a Chassis Design by Pinifarina.

The Myth of Gugelots involvement in the Design of the 914 is especially wide-spread in the American
Literature. David Coleman for example claims that Gugelots "stark" design was influenced by Braun's
Toasters of the same Era ..."
==========================


Andy

PS: click on the thumb below for a full size version of the scan ...


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Posted by: jd74914 May 2 2006, 05:09 PM

Wow. . . Nice find.

Thanks for ze translation

Posted by: Headrage May 2 2006, 05:15 PM

Vat vas he sinking????

Posted by: lapuwali May 2 2006, 05:23 PM

I can't quite read the caption on the lower photo. Does that say FIAT 2800 for Pininfarina?

Posted by: SirAndy May 2 2006, 05:28 PM

did 'ya click on the picture?
Andy

Posted by: dlo914 May 2 2006, 05:28 PM

Allan's little quote reminded me of this http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1365353836237246497 on Google Videos. LOL "Vat ah yoou sinking z-bout?"

Sorry for the Hi-Jack...back to your normal thread broadcast.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed May 2 2006, 06:07 PM

I absolutely LOVE stuff like this...

pete

Posted by: grasshopper May 2 2006, 06:22 PM

dude! I know a porsche guy named david coleman. I got some weber parts from him. All I will say is that he is sitting on a VERY LARGE parts stash. hundreds of engines, and some VERY VERY VERY Rare cars...

Posted by: ejm May 2 2006, 06:29 PM

I always thought the Mustang protype was very 914ish looking




Attached image(s)

Posted by: jimtab May 2 2006, 09:35 PM

I think that the fiat shares a lot of it's lines with the bmw 2800cs-3.0cs series....but swoopier somehow...Italian stuff I guess....

Posted by: neo914-6 May 2 2006, 10:58 PM

Braun record player by Gugelot, see the resemblance?

There were several designers who produced their concepts of the 914, who's to know what really happened after the non-disclosures were signed...


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Posted by: SirAndy May 2 2006, 11:08 PM

and you would know that how?

as stated in the other thread, also from the DGVWPB, there were 5 designs that made it to the finals, all 5 were done inhouse by the Porsche Design Studios.

i have not seen a single schred of credible information that suggests otherwise.

no doubt, there were many design-studies and prototypes that were *based* on the 914, even as early as 1969, but as far as i know, all of those were after the car had already started production.


from DGVWPB ...

--------------------------
"the first sketches were done in 1964 at the porsche design-studios. five different sketches were chosen for the final design choice in early 1966. all 5 sketches were turned into 1:5 size clay models. the (unanimous) vote went to a model designed by Heinrich Klie, then head of the porsche design-studios, who also designed the the first porsche formular 1 racecar and the carrera 6."
--------------------------

attached are 3 pics of klie's clay model that won the contest ... (click on pic for full size version)

Posted by: SirAndy May 2 2006, 11:17 PM

:DRUMROLL:

meet the father of the 914, Heinrich Klie, Head of Porsche Design Studios and creator of the 914-Design ...

here's to you Heinrich!



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Posted by: neo914-6 May 3 2006, 12:52 AM

Still trying to get that "true" Porsche connection, huh? Where are the other four designs?

If the Gugelot's BMW proposal was done prior or part of the inhouse competition, I see features heavily predicating or "infuencing" the production design. For instance, the greenhouse shape, the signal light "pods", and the door lines. Hats off to whomever changed the front to mid engine it really helped the proportions. Of course this writer may not have done his homework as you're suggesting.

I really don't care about the whom, but the styling progression interests me...





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Posted by: Andyrew May 3 2006, 01:30 AM

Is it possible to find these prototypes? er.. the sketches at least?

Very interesting stuff..

Andrew

Posted by: smontanaro May 3 2006, 03:56 AM

Though not very Mustangish looking.

Skip

Posted by: olav May 3 2006, 09:54 AM

Thanks Andy, this is cool.

Someone has to make a t-shirt of Klie as the 914 designer. That would be nifty.

Posted by: SirAndy May 3 2006, 10:22 AM

not really. i would be just as happy if gugelot or bois or pinifarina had designed the 914. no need for a "porsche" connection to like the 914.

BUT, i am *very* interested in the factual history, and it seems Michael von Klodt has done his homework.

i think that the fact that neither Ferdinand Alexander Porsche nor any of the former employees of Gugelot, nor anyone else who was actually involved in the process, can remember Gugelot having anything to do with the 914 design, well, that is fact enough for me ...


btw, your picture above is from Karl Ludvigsens book, which was wrongly labeled the "Gugelot-Auto" in the book.
if you look at the scan of the page from DGVWPB, in the top righthand corner is a picture of the real Gugelot Auto, which was actually produced and driven.

if you're really interested in the "styling progression" you *should* pay attention to the actual facts at hand and not just pick pieces that you would have liked to have played a role ...
Andy

Posted by: davep May 3 2006, 11:15 AM

Andy is quite correct, one needs to research history and accept the truthes you discover. There is a lot of crap out there that was just wishful thinking.
Jeff and I have come across some very interesting things about the LE production that has destroyed previously accepted assumptions.

Posted by: thomasotten May 3 2006, 11:52 AM

Perhaps we will get a deathbed confession from Butzi: I am the 914's fasher!" (fasher, meaning "father", as in GoldMember movie)

Posted by: neo914-6 May 3 2006, 12:11 PM

"seems" isn't conclusive to me or any court . I found the Gugelot photo on a PCA site and only have internet material because I've found zero 914 information in the automotive industrial design or styling tradebooks that I'm aware of. Almost all of the articles refer to Gugelot and the VW & Porsche joint venture. Dam me and all the authors who didn't go to Germany to do their homework.

IMHO Porsche gets the credit for completing the 914 design but it was an obvious departure from the Porsche design status que. I believe (as many have written) that an industrial design firm (Gugelot) had a hand because the 914 design is product oriented, not highly stylized and because the conceptual shape is not classic teardrop...

Posted by: SirAndy May 3 2006, 12:32 PM

well, you really should get DGVWPB and learn to read german. one of the next pages i'm going to translate actually outlines the whole design process and has personal quotes from Heinrich Klie, among others, as to how, when and where the design of the 914 came about.

you are correct in your assumption that the design was a departure from the classic porsche "teardrop" and as outlined in the book, that was very much on purpose.

you are, however, mistaken when it comes to your assumption of the involvement of the Gugelot design firm. in the book, Klie, Porsche and others cleary state that Gugelot had abosulutely nothing to do with the design and that his firm was most certainly never commissioned by Porsche to do any design work.

the truth is out there ...
Andy

Posted by: fitsbain May 3 2006, 01:04 PM

Got to share this, no offence to our German Brothers (Half of me is with you).

"ACHTUNG!

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."


I have this posted on the cube I work in doing Technical Suport for Aerotech. A company that does motion controls and servo systems.

Posted by: SirAndy May 3 2006, 01:21 PM

translation?

neither my german nor english is good enough to make any sense of this ...
Andy

Posted by: fitsbain May 3 2006, 01:35 PM

Just read in english. Forget about German. Sound out the words and say them out loud.

Posted by: SirAndy May 3 2006, 02:47 PM

still does not make any sense ...
Andy

Posted by: Matt Meyer May 3 2006, 02:55 PM

Try one more time. Read it out loud and don't think as you are reading it.

Knowing any german but nicht, der, das, dem and den is hinderance to understanding.

For some reason I think it would help picturing Mel Brooks with a monocal saying it.

Maybe too much english slang?

Posted by: horizontally-opposed May 3 2006, 02:57 PM

Two Davids here.

There's the David Coleman you're talking about in VA, who is very into Northeast Porsche circles. He sold one of Bruce Jennings' old Speedster race cars a couple of years ago.

Then there is the David Colman who, used to write for Excellence and is a big fan of 914s, with a 914-6 "GT". I think the German is referring to this David Colman, and believe me it is scary how much the German press refers to Excellence in its historical research. Even at the archive in Zuffenhausen, they remark at how there is nothing similar to the magazine in Germany.

Ever play the game "telephone?" Now try it starting in German and translated to English about half way around the circle.

The truth IS out there...and I too want to find it.

pete

Posted by: markb May 3 2006, 03:00 PM

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."



Veeeery loose translation:

This machine is not for finger pokin' and mitt grabbin'
It's easy snapping the springworks
It's not for working on by the dummkoffs
The rubberneckin' sightseein' geeks should keep their hands in their pockets
Relax and watch the blinkin' lights

Posted by: Rrrockhound May 3 2006, 04:19 PM

So anyway, just to keep this thread on topic, if it's true that Gugelot had nothing to do with the design, that blows up the whole storyline that the 914's design was outsourced to a 3rd party to keep it from showing too much influence from one company (Porsche) or the other (VW).

Damn internet misinformation. In the old days, info was harder to get, but somewhat more trustworthy once you got it.

I've always thought the 914 showed more Porsche influence than anyone would acknowledge. The running lights in the leading edge of the front fenders are just a variation on the 356/911 theme, only using turn signals instead of headlights.

Posted by: highways May 3 2006, 04:29 PM

Grate, now ist maykeen purfect nugen sensse. Dank yu.

Posted by: eg914 May 3 2006, 10:43 PM

Rrrockhound, I agree. Even my daughter thinks the family resemblence is there. She says all the older Porsches have the rounded front fenders with lights in them.

Posted by: 9146986 May 4 2006, 05:51 PM

Nearly ten years ago, as VP of the Porsche 914 Club, I set out to get the final word on this. Although Gugelot has been mentioned ad nauseum, there isn't much more than ink, and a clay model of a car with vaugely similiar features, to substantiate the Gugelot theory.

After discussing the matter in detail with Alex Buller (RIP, the founder and Pres. of the Porsche 914 Club), Alex suggested I contact Jorg Austen, who worked in the Porsche design department, and on the 914 development (clutch and rear suspension). Mr. Austen wrote me a letter (which I still have) and told me the Gugelot story was wrong, and the 914 was a internal design project.

I had some discussions on Rennlist with Charlie Davis regarding this, and he also quoted Ludvigsen (sp), whom Davis regards as an unquestionable athority. The final word (from this camp of the argument) being the Porsche design group would claim responsibility regardless of who was truly responsible. I do not agree with this position. Why would someone like Mr. Austen lie to me?

Of course discrediting Porsche with the design also distances the 914 from "true Porsche purism", which I'd guess would be a position for Ludvigsen to take. I dunno.

I do find it interesting though, that seeing restoration photos of a 904 shows some striking similarites in the rear half of the chassis.

Posted by: william harris May 5 2006, 09:45 AM

Sloopy research = copy what the most recent "authority" said in his book. Often the original source just accepted hearsay as true and so the myth begins. Excellent thread.

Posted by: DEC May 5 2006, 01:03 PM

Hello Andy
The Klie clay model is existing today.
A 914-friend became the model as a gift from Mr. Klie as he bought his very early
1.7.
This clay model is a unique 914 how the Klie real 914 with many different parts
as the series.

Wilco

Posted by: SirAndy May 5 2006, 01:48 PM

WOW!

i didn't think it would have survived all these years ...

hey wilco, any chance to see some more recent pictures of the model?
Andy

Posted by: DEC May 5 2006, 02:20 PM

Hey Andy,
I will contact Norbert tomorrow and will ask him
for making any actual photos.

Wilco

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby May 5 2006, 02:43 PM

I LOVE this place!

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 5 2006, 03:00 PM

If anything, the Gugelot story got Ferdinand Alexander Porsche to admit that there is such a thing as a 914

Posted by: DEC May 8 2006, 03:20 PM

Hi Andy,
here is a first pic from the Klie 914.

Remember it is a german car.

I hope to become further pics from the car and the clay model.

It can a few days take.

Stay tuned

Wilco

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 8 2006, 05:41 PM

I see some simularities between the 914 design and these other car designs.

But I also see alot of simularities between Mercedes Benz and alot of rice burners.

Following this logic that would meen that the Benz was designed by Hero Heto?

Following the bread crums It seems that a few people that were directly involved

in the design are saying that Porsche designed the 914 in-house. Why would they

lie? They don't seem to want to claim the 914 as a "Real Porsche" anyway.

An Observation.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby May 8 2006, 06:57 PM

Is that photo of the 'really early german 1.7L"? If so why does it have side vents on the dash? Whats the VIN of this car?

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:00 AM

Jeff
yes this is the original Klie 914(!) but not mine.

I hope that I get more details in the next days.

My friend is very busy in the next months (SAP introduction), so
that the informations comes not in shortterm.

stay tuned, if I get the Informations I will post these immediate.

Wilco

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 9 2006, 12:13 AM

Say Wilco, great pic. Your english is very good but substitute the word get for the word become and you will be right on.

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:31 AM

Thanks for the hint

Posted by: sixerdon May 9 2006, 06:25 AM

Good pictures of the embryonic 914. This is better than X-files! The truth is right around the corner. What's a few more days when I've been waiting 30 years. Keep 'em coming Wilco.

Don

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:17 PM

here we go....

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:18 PM

with redesigned front.....
done by Klie

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:20 PM

rear

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:21 PM

last one

Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2006, 12:27 PM

thank you sir!

i'm still amazed that that clay model actually survived ...

what a find! thanks for posting the pics, wilco ..
Andy

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 12:37 PM

No problem.....

If you are looking for any further missing stuff
let me know this.

I will see what I can do.


Wilco

Posted by: Aaron Cox May 9 2006, 12:43 PM

this place is the best. period.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby May 9 2006, 01:08 PM

Hmmm... 2 different models...

Compare them and see the differences...




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Posted by: Twystd1 May 9 2006, 01:17 PM

I had no idea this data existed.



I am so grateful that you guys take the time to show this kind of history with us...

Just very kewl stuff..!!!!!!!

Regards,
Twystd1

Posted by: DEC May 9 2006, 02:30 PM

Jeff,
the pics I posted today shows the same model.
But it was more than one times redesigned.
See also page 21 and 22 in the DGVWPB.

Don't hesitate to make your own inquirys
but I know you will have the same result.

Wilco

Posted by: rickyhgarcia May 9 2006, 03:25 PM

Great info!!!

Posted by: johannes May 9 2006, 04:37 PM

Gugelot has been misspelled (gudelot) on the 914garage.com french website.
Now you can read gudelot on all the french websites ...
That's the way rumors and wrong informations spread all over the Web ...

By the way, this is one of the most interresting thread I ever read ! I love this place

Posted by: sixerdon May 9 2006, 07:36 PM

Fabulous information, Wilco! We've all learned a little bit more on the history of the 914's beginnings. You rate "member of the week" in my book.
Don

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 9 2006, 07:50 PM

Who are you!?!

You come in here and between the clay model and the factory restoration photos, single handedly smoke virtually every post that's been put on these pages!

(Andy, please translate the American English vernacular to Wilco... Wilco, it's a good thing)

WTFingG!!!

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 9 2006, 08:49 PM

Thanks Wilco. Great Pics!

Posted by: DEC May 10 2006, 01:05 AM

Posted by: Bleyseng May 10 2006, 04:15 AM

Wow, amazing photos of the model and thanks for posting. The 914 always has seemed to be a interesting German style car, similar to the German styling of the 60's to me.

Ah, heck what do I know stuck here is Suriname now.

Posted by: DEC May 10 2006, 01:09 PM

Correction

Today I had a telephone call with Norbert.
He told me that the Klie 914 is a 1970 model with first licence in 1973.
The car was more than two years in the Porsche test department and have
many different parts.
The side vents in the dash are allegeable with this Informations.
The dash part you can see on the attached photo is from the Klie 914.
If you have the DGVWPB (Andy) compare this with the photo side 25 in the
upper right corner.

Further Informations about the Klie 914 will follow.

Wilco

Posted by: Gustl May 10 2006, 01:56 PM

Wilco, I'm really impressed about all this fascinating material and data you're posting here

did you ever post something of this stuff at the PFF
I can't remember seeing this before

anyhow ... it seems that you choose this place the right to be

keep on posting

Gustl

Posted by: DEC May 10 2006, 02:34 PM

Wolfgang,
hab ich nicht und werde ich auch nicht bis....
ja bis jemand so einen Thread startet.

Wilco

Explanation: PFF is the german Porsche Fan Forum

Excuse me that I answer this post in german.

Posted by: Gustl May 10 2006, 02:57 PM

well ... that's o.k. for me

Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2006, 03:00 PM

looks to be the same car!

DGVWPB, page 25, upper right hand corner, caption says (losely translated):

"The electronical Check-System was omitted from the production cars to keep the price down."

the car has some '73 features, dash sidevents, center console. i'm guessing this picture was taken somewhere after '73, after klie had "updated" the car ...
Andy


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Posted by: Mueller May 10 2006, 03:02 PM

do you have a description of what this did and how??

Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2006, 03:09 PM

more pictures of the clay model ...

NOTE: on the second pic, you can see the normal single headlight versus the dual-headlight, which was only build once, on what is now Dr. Piech's red 914-8 ...

Andy

PS: these pictures appear to be from the latest stages of the clay model as it is almost exactly the same as the current pictures wilco posted.
even the license plate matches!


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Posted by: SirAndy May 10 2006, 03:11 PM

yes. electronical self-diagnostic system. for each circuit, there is a diagnostic light (above the knobs), when you turn on the ignition, the system runs a self test, and if a circuit fails the test, the warning light will stay on ...

Andy

Posted by: sixerdon May 10 2006, 04:17 PM

So the Klie 914 was a factory test mule. Which factory??
Could be an early 1970 model? The VIN number and other chassis infomation would help us.
Fascinating!

Don

Posted by: DEC May 17 2006, 09:58 AM

Thanks Andy for cleaning and updating the website

@Dan
1)In the Porsche Design center
2)The VIN comes at last
3)Firstable two further pics...
The passenger foot rest

Posted by: DEC May 17 2006, 10:01 AM

The interior back wall from the Klie 914

Posted by: DEC May 18 2006, 02:27 PM

Dan,
Here is the maintenance book with the VIN

I post the pics how I get these.

Remember.....its not my car

Wilco

Posted by: SirAndy May 18 2006, 02:33 PM

so it's a fairly late '71 ...

VIN: 471 29 10319

remember that europeans write the 1 like you guys write a 7, and the 7 always with a horizontal line, so don't get confused there ...

Engine #: 0080472

the dealer started this maintenance booklet on "03/19/1974", the owner is listed as "Heinrich Klie" ...

Andy

Posted by: DEC May 20 2006, 12:23 PM

here are any pics from the "Klie" 914


split mid console



looks like selfmade

Posted by: DEC May 20 2006, 12:28 PM

one pic from the Klie model with the original bumper

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 20 2006, 12:48 PM

Danke, grobe abbildungen und informationen halten sie ihn zu kommen. Nehmen

sie ihn einfach.

Posted by: DEC May 20 2006, 02:29 PM

ÄHHHHHH
What do you mean ?

A funny translation

Please write this in english once more


Wilco

Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn May 20 2006, 03:24 PM

Wilco,
Does the "Klie 914" have the early dash-mount wiper switch(another telltale of an early /4), or had it been updated with the later column-mounted stalk? Do you know what is happening with this car? Restoration? Refurbishment? Parts car(hope not)?
Thanks for all your contributions and input, this is interesting and fascinating history!

Danke!

Posted by: DEC May 20 2006, 04:32 PM

The "Klie 914" has the later column-mounted stalk.
This 914 is a really unique car, many parts and configurations are
made by the Porsche development.
The owner of this car is a real 914-fan and he is restoring the car
to bring it back on the street.

Wilco

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 20 2006, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the pictures and the information. Keep it coming.

Take it easy.

My spanish is better.

Posted by: The Swede Nov 15 2006, 02:21 PM

Let me help you develop this matter, although it may be periferic:

Re: Some Background:
In the early 60s, Gugelot together with the Bayer-Werke designed a plastic car that was based on a BMW.
Like the 914, this car separated itself from others through it's clear-cut lines. The car pictured in
Ludvigsens "Bible" and wrongly labeled the "Gugelot-Auto" was in fact a one-off prototype that never
made production.

Gugelot did design an interesting Swedish sports car called OBC Mantorp (after a racing course in Sweden). OBC was founded by a German, Mr. Ottmar Beckmann, who turned to Gugelot to complete his own design ideas. The car was supposed to be made of a core of polyurethan draped in glassfibre and had a mid-engine BMW engine, ranging from 100 to 200 hp. It never reached production since the project ran out of money but a completely new factory was built in Swedish town Klippan (on the west coast) in 1973-74. The car itself was constructed in a shed just by the Swedish racing course Falkenberg. I'll try to submit pictures of the only prototype (from the brochure that was made) as soon as possible. It doesn't look like a 914 at all, but has much in common with the BMW M1. And – there are gullwing doors!
Best regards from The Swede.

Posted by: SGB Nov 15 2006, 03:40 PM

Thanks for sharing!

Posted by: highways Dec 26 2006, 03:27 PM

I'd like to nominate this thread for classic status, as it seems to have dissappeared since the shuffle.

Posted by: Derek Seymour Apr 6 2009, 02:52 PM

This is one of the best threads I have ever read on any forum... period. It felt like a treasure hunt.. or something like it... fun exciting stuff!

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 02:57 PM

This IS super cool. I know its been awhile, but thanks Andy and Wilco for the treasure!

Posted by: lotus_65 Jun 19 2009, 09:02 PM

that was frickin' funny

there is NO way i'll ever see the Gugelot design has anything in common with the 914.
i'll just point to the front. you can't look at that beak and think 914. it's pure french-ugly.

the 'fleur

p.s. i had no idea this thread was so old...

Posted by: Tom_T Sep 9 2009, 01:38 AM

Surprised you didn't nominate it for the "Comfy Chair" award!

Great read from all!

Personally, with Porsche offering their own design services for many outside firms since its inception post-WWII - including many VW designs, some of which made it to production - why would one doubt that they could indeed design the 914, even if a departure from the 356-911/912 lines. You can look at the 924 to 968 & 928 chain as another set of departures.

Frankly, I think the Froggies are spreading that Gugelot rumor! ...you know - "I fart in your general direction!" & how the French & Germans have always each other! ...and this comes from a part German, French, English, Irish & Cherokee/Seneca Indian mix-mash M.Python fan!!

The clay models show a clear line of development on the final version.

It would also be "very interesting" to see some pix of the other 4 schemes in competition with Mr. K's scheme - if anyone runs across something to post here.

Cheers!

Posted by: johannes Sep 9 2009, 01:58 AM

Nothing to do with the french. The source of the Gugelot story is the Karl Ludvigsen's book "excellence was expected". Karl is not french.

Posted by: Tom_T Sep 9 2009, 02:14 PM

Just "pulling your legs" collectively, Johannes - no harm intended!

BTW - Do you know if Gugelot was French - as I had thought - or Belgian or ??

I think Ludvigsen himself was a Swede or a Dane or somewhere other than Germany himself, so it's really an international circle of rumor & innuendo.

Long's book below, in particular, does a good job of a quick debunking of the "Gugelot Theory". Personally - and as a design professional myself - I see no more than a passing similarity in some features of Gugelot's & others' designs, with the 914's styling - which often happens in what is often referred to as parallel development or innovation (2 disconnected groups/persons developing something similar but separately).

Heck, if one could claim being the genesis or authorship of a design simply by having done something similar previously, then I could claim so on the Mazda Miata & BMW Z3/Z4 on the basis of a scketch which I did for my college applications' portfolio way back in 1969/70!

For all interested - in addition to Brett Johnson's 914 tome, I recently got 2 really interesting & useful 914 resource books, that talk about some of this history of the design (Long) & worth the pix alone, & a compendium of past articles (Clarke), which are available online from the usual suspects Barnes & Noble, Borders, Amazon, PP, Pelican, etc. as listed below:

"Porsche 914 & 914-6", 2nd Ed., Brian Long, Veloce Publishing, Dorchester, UK, ISBN 1845840303

"Porsche 914 - Ultimate Portfolio", compiled by R.M. Clarke, Brooklands Books, Surrey, UK, ISBN 1855204320

Enjoy the read! Tom

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 9 2009, 02:45 PM

German, with Dutch ancestry.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gugelot


American
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Ludvigsen

Posted by: Tom_T Sep 9 2009, 04:05 PM

Thanx Andy! ...interesting reads on both!

One correction though re: Ludvigsen - he'd be a German-American, Dutch-American, Swedish-American, or whatever his immigrant ancestry is/was. Similar to how you put Gugelot as a German with Dutch ancestry.

Do you happen to know which he was, as the wiki article didn't say, but his first & last names clearly use the "Old World" spellings?

"American" is mostly an amalgam of many races & cultures & only related to their current place of residence. So I was going by the spellings of his names to guess at his ancestral origins.

Whereas, the only true Americans which can be considered as separate race/cultures from the Anglo-European, African, Asian or other ancestry from elsewhere in the world, are the Native Americans. "Wrong Way" Columbus called them "Indians" (Indios in Spanish) because he thought he was in India, and that grew into the other term "American Indian".

I myself am a "Mixed-blood" Cherokee/Seneca Indian (1/4 Blood), with English, Irish, Scots, French & German ancestry. So I had some ancestors here already, as the others were coming over in their boats!

Perhaps a small point, but important to the all too often marginalized First Peoples of this land!

Posted by: johannes Sep 9 2009, 04:47 PM

Found theese interresting pictures from the BMW project

http://www.hansgugelot.com/en/bmw-bayer_sports-car.php

Link updated on 02/04/2014

Posted by: johannes Sep 9 2009, 04:56 PM

Relinked to Internet Archive on 02/04/2014

Posted by: Tom_T Sep 9 2009, 04:57 PM

Interesting design when you see these. Reminds me of the 1960's Saab & Arbath sports cars of the day, especially the rear greenhouse glass enclosure layout.

His urethane foam core with 2 gel coat skins are interesting too. My Dad was a chemist who used a similar construction for factory built housing in the late 1960's HUD "Operation Breakthrough" program. The only one from that program which was seen much internationally, were the concrete modular system used for the 1970 Montreal Olympics athletes' housing.

Posted by: johannes Sep 9 2009, 05:01 PM

Another picture of the 1967 Gugelot - Bayer car

Posted by: Tom_T Sep 9 2009, 05:20 PM

This shot makes the F&R wheels look pinched too close together, but not on the pic of the Orange one above you posted with the caption: "1967...."

Johannes - are they of the same car & just a camera optics thing, or different prototypes?

Posted by: johannes Sep 9 2009, 05:38 PM

Same car. Wide angle lens effect.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 9 2009, 06:14 PM

Posted by: 9146986 Sep 9 2009, 09:59 PM

Now you can see it guys!! It looks just like a 914 right?

Where is the 914 Gugelot design smilie going down in flames?

Posted by: Tom_T Sep 9 2009, 10:05 PM

I think we should infiltrate the Saab & Arbath owners' websites, & start rumors at each that Gugelot actually designed their sports cars with the glass fastbacks there too!

Posted by: johannes Sep 10 2009, 06:21 AM

The smoking gun was always the early clay model...

Targa roof and high fenders ... Just like on a 911 Targa.

From http://www.gugelot.de/gugelot/bmw-bayer_sportwagen.php

Posted by: ME733 Sep 10 2009, 08:34 AM

Well I think ...that most of the comments and information should be moved into ...the...ORIGINALITY & HISTORY forum. most of this information is too important to be "lost " in the world garage forum.

Posted by: 9146986 Sep 10 2009, 08:44 AM

Good point ME733.

Is it possible to edit out the non-essential information and lock down the good info on a separate thread?

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 10 2009, 11:08 AM

There's already a link in the "Classics" forum.



Do we have any good writers here?
I've been meaning to submit this to Excellence Magazine, but my writing skills are rather marginal ...
Andy

Posted by: johannes Aug 20 2010, 01:08 PM

At least we can now trace this project ... Gugelot car 1/1 clay model ? what car is this ?

Posted by: johannes Aug 20 2010, 01:26 PM

More has been posted about the Gugelot car here

The one who says this is the 914 ancestor has to wear glasses ...

http://www.formfreu.de/?p=10392

http://www.hansgugelot.com/bilder/content_rechts/Markt-1990.pdf

http://www.hansgugelot.com/bilder/content_rechts/BAYER_Information.pdf

http://www.hansgugelot.com/de/bmw-bayer_sportwagen.php

...

Posted by: bandjoey Aug 20 2010, 06:34 PM

My 914 history book states:

"Porsche already knew of an existing design study by a nearby company, Gugelot GMBH, for a front-engined sports car made out of advanced composite materials. This was acquired and quickly adapted by Butzl Porsche to accept either engine in a mid-mounted arrangement similar to Porsche's racing models."

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2010, 08:05 PM

Yes. A lot of books are repeating that same statement.


The purpose of this thread was to show what really happened ...
Andy

Posted by: johannes Aug 21 2010, 04:03 AM

From journalist imagination. Not even an idiot would buy a project to "quickly" adapt it to a completely different architecture and make a 100% different design. That is nonsense.

Posted by: johannes Aug 21 2010, 04:05 AM

the picture above was not from the Gugelot / BMW / Bayer project but is the ...

Opel 1900 GT Aero prototype. Was it also "quickely adapted" from the Gugelot design ?

Posted by: tumamilhem Dec 24 2013, 09:47 AM

Haha good one!

Posted by: boxsterfan Dec 24 2013, 11:36 AM

So are there pics of the other four models that were considered in the Porsche design contest before they settled on our beloved 914 as we know it today?

Posted by: balljoint Dec 24 2013, 11:40 AM

Yeah, Eric, good one! From seven years ago.

Posted by: johannes Apr 2 2014, 10:04 AM

More pictures from the Bayer K67 Car designed by Guguelot










More pictures here

http://www.motor-talk.de/blogs/kuesmagazin/der-bmw-von-bayer-leverkusen-mit-exklusiven-werksfotos-t3370902.html

http://www.formfreu.de/2009/09/26/bayer-k67-der-polyurethan-bmw/

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 2 2014, 11:30 AM

Nice! Ugly, but nice ...

Posted by: veekry9 Apr 2 2014, 12:00 PM

Hmmm..mid 60's 924/944/968.

see item #4 above,a tray spoiler like no other designer's.
A long gestation of styling ideas.
kudos.

Posted by: johannes Aug 13 2014, 11:01 AM

On this NYT article it is written that the Gugelot story has been reported by Bernt Polster...

"Bernd Polster, a leading German design historian, traces the 914’s basic shape to a design that Gugelot created for a never-built car planned by a plastics company. But F. A. Porsche, known as Butzi, who designed the 911, denied that story in an interview in the book “Porsche 914 & 914-6: The Definitive History of the Road and Competition Cars” by Brian Long (Veloce Publishing, 2006)."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/automobiles/collectibles/04PORSCHE.html

...

Posted by: OU812 Jul 22 2016, 06:31 PM

Excellent reading, and history lesson.....going to do some more reading on it.

Great old school photos and clay models

Interesting story

Posted by: mech986 Mar 26 2018, 05:28 PM

Stumbled on this thread while re-researching the 914 history and development. Kudos to all concerned who brought forth evidence for the in-house 914 body development. I suspect there may have been indirect influences, seeing as maybe the designers in Germany ran in a small circle or were following similar trends, but it looks like Klie fleshed out the final design cues and it was the one that ultimately Porsche adopted for the 914.

Klie's "development" 914 car also shows a lot of different pieces placed together into one evolving car. What has happened to its restoration and its current state of affairs?

Posted by: johannes Oct 13 2018, 10:24 AM

There is a thread about this car
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=81380