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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Anybody running without a rear sway bar?
Posted by: stephen7 May 7 2006, 10:26 PM
I read that the early cars didn't have rear sway bars - do they make a difference?
I bought expensive weltmeister sway bars for my 911 and all the PCA racers said take them off and it will corner better. How about 914s? Should you have beefy sway bars for AX and DE or run with stiffer springs, dampeners and thicker torsion bars?
thanks
steve
Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 7 2006, 10:30 PM
depends on your set up and what you want to do with your car.
My car is for DE/TT and AX. 21 mm front torsion bars, stock front sway bar, and koni adjustables. Rear is 180# springs and Bil sports with no rear bar, stock or otherwise.
Car is well balanced, turns in on command.
Alignment has a lot to do with a cars cornering and balance.
Posted by: Dave_Darling May 7 2006, 10:36 PM
First, I don't believe that early cars had sway-bars. And I think that when the factory fitted the bars, they were front and rear both. (But no, I'm not certain about it.)
I loved the factory F&R bars on my car when I had stock springs. Now that I've got 140s in the rear (still stock front torsions!) and a 19mm bar up front, the rear bar was too much roll stiffness in the rear. I removed it and am happy with the balance. (For now.)
It's all a question of balance. You can increase the roll stiffness directly with sway bars, or indirectly with stiffer springs (which also increase the overall stiffness). Either way works, and to some extent you can trade off between the two.
EDIT--When I had the stock suspension, I tried a little autoX with the rear bar disconnected. Not a huge difference, but I liked the way the car felt with the rear bar connected better than with it disconnected. I put it back on at the first opportunity! Until I upgraded the rear springs, that is...
--DD
Posted by: stephen7 May 7 2006, 10:37 PM
what size tires and wheels are you running? Did you try it with a rear sway bar too? Did you get too much oversteer with a rear sway bar?
Posted by: grantsfo May 7 2006, 10:38 PM
I'm running my 914/6 with 21 mm front bar, 200# rear springs, no rear bar and it is very balanced.
Posted by: turboman808 May 7 2006, 10:54 PM
really not a question with a definite answer as you see. All depends on what you got already.
I will say this though. On my honda I went for a harder spring in the rear so I didn't need a rear sway bar. At the time seems lots of people had problems with the sub frame tearing out. If I ever get around to it though I will go back and replace the 550# springs with 400s and a 18mm sway so it isn't so harsh over bumps but still handles well.
But most important is you get a balance between the front and rear. Hard front and soft rear is gonna understeer. Soft front and hard rear will over steer.
I try to shoot for a slight understeer that I can throw into oversteer if I need to.
Posted by: JOHNMAN May 7 2006, 10:56 PM
Our track car has 21mm front torsion bars, a very heavy front sway bar (don't recall the size), 400# rear springs and no rear sway bar.
This car is track only (no auto-x). The car has 245/45-16 Kumho Victo Racers on all four corners.
The car is very neutral. We could tell no difference with the rear bar connected, but in the interest to prevent any rear wheel lift (and wheelspin), we removed the rear bar. Now that we have a limited slip differential, this may not be a problem, but like I said, we could tell no difference with or without the rear sway bar.
Posted by: stephen7 May 7 2006, 11:10 PM
Our track car has 21mm front torsion bars, a very heavy front sway bar (don't recall the size), 400# rear springs and no rear sway bar.
This car is track only (no auto-x). The car has 245/45-16 Kumho Victo Racers on all four corners.
The car is very neutral. We could tell no difference with the rear bar connected, but in the interest to prevent any rear wheel lift (and wheelspin), we removed the rear bar. Now that we have a limited slip differential, this may not be a problem, but like I said, we could tell no difference with or without the rear sway bar.
when you see the pictures of the guy lifting his front tire on hard cornering - is that due to too stiff a combination of front sway bar/torsion bars? Is a little wheel lift ok?
I thought no rear bar would meet with widespread concerns but I stiffer springs and no rear sway bar is a pretty good set up.
thanks guys
steve
Posted by: campbellcj May 7 2006, 11:57 PM
Wow, I can't imagine driving a 911 w/o a rear swaybar.
Popular opinion for the 914 is that you only want a rear bar if your powerplant and suspension are basically stock (i.e. a 73-74 2.0 that came with swaybars) or if you have upgraded bits and an LSD.
I know that when I bought my current car with a torquey 2.4/four, it was totally undrivable until I unhooked the rear bar. Without an LSD it is very easy to unweight a drive wheel and an open diff sends the power there, resulting in chirping/spinning or worse.
Posted by: alan9144 May 8 2006, 05:58 AM
I don't have any sway bars or uprated shocks/springs on my 75 - yet - and it handles amazingly well, no matter how hard I try the thing is stuck to the road and the tires never make a noise (this is probably why my box is knackered 
Saying that I have a full set of weltmeisters/ adjustable Konis and uprated springs ready to fit. 
Al
Posted by: synthesisdv May 8 2006, 06:18 AM
no rear bar here either....
Posted by: srb7f May 8 2006, 06:25 AM
Had one for awhile, took it off and sold it. My current setup is 21mm torsion bars with a stock sway bar, #140 rear springs with Bilsteins all around.
Posted by: Joe Ricard May 8 2006, 06:44 AM
Yup no rear bar on the red NEck Racer. Primary Autocross car but will have my 1st track lapping day This coming Friday.
Posted by: mudfoot76 May 8 2006, 08:40 AM
My car had a big rear bar when I got it. I took it off after the first DE. The front suspension is stock (w/factory front bar) except for Koni shocks. In the rear, Koni's and 140# springs. The car has very slight understeer at higher speeds.
Posted by: URY914 May 8 2006, 10:29 AM
I ran a rear bar for one DE. Oversteer like crazy. Took it off.
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 8 2006, 10:39 AM
I ran a rear bar for one DE. Oversteer like crazy. Took it off.
dial in more front bar ?
Posted by: Britain Smith May 8 2006, 11:24 AM
I have an early car that came with NO swaybars. I added a stock rear bar and a Welt 21mm front bar. The car is flat and handles great...ask some of the folks that I used to AX against. I use the front bar to fine tune the set-up.
-Britain
Posted by: jhadler May 8 2006, 11:29 AM
As it's been said here already, "it all depends". Car setup and alignment will have a large impact on wether a rear bar is needed.
I run 21 mm torsion bars, 200# coils, and a 22 mm adjustable front sway bar. No rear bar, and the car handles -very- well. 
I've thought about going to softer rear springs and trying a rear bar, but haven't gone there yet. Need a running car to do that... 
-Josh2
Posted by: SirAndy May 8 2006, 12:08 PM
i have to say that i like it better with the rear bar connected, for AX that is. seems to help to get that ass rotated in tight corners.
no power oversteer for me, so i take all the help i can get ...
Andy
Posted by: Brando May 8 2006, 12:21 PM
I'm running a 21mm front bar, stock tortion bars, 120# springs in the back with a stock rear bar and I cannot get barely any body roll in the hardest of turns. Not to mention it rides nice with Boges in back. 195/55/15 Fuzions on Rivieras.
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 8 2006, 12:24 PM
i love my rear bar.....
22mm torsion bars, 225 lb springs, tarett bar up front, stock in rear..
i can use the tarett to fine tune the understeer/oversteer.....
Posted by: jhadler May 8 2006, 12:25 PM
Hey Aaron, any wheel spin issues?
-Josh2
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 8 2006, 12:27 PM
Hey Aaron, any wheel spin issues?
-Josh2
havent AX'd this setup yet... but it sticks like glue..... pretty stiff, and almost no roll...
i dont think ill have any inside rear wheel lift issues.... but ill let you know.
currently it pushes, i need to back off on the front sway a tad...
Posted by: TGM May 8 2006, 12:34 PM
I am currently running 23 mm torsion bars, 180lb progressive springs with Bilsteins and no sway bars. The handling is neutral to slight understeer but there is a fair amount of body roll. I am considering adding front bar and my question is how much stiffer would I need to go on rear springs? 
Posted by: SirAndy May 8 2006, 12:42 PM
I am considering adding front bar and my question is how much stiffer would I need to go on rear springs?
depends entirely on the size of the front bar ...
Andy
Posted by: sean_v8_914 May 8 2006, 01:22 PM
22mm front and stock bar
180# rears with no bar
205/50/15 Falkin Aziniz on Fuchs
car is neutral
very little body roll
this is a little stiff on he street but that is a small price to pay for teh added grip
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 8 2006, 01:33 PM
22mm front and stock bar
180# rears with no bar
205/50/15 Falkin Aziniz on Fuchs
car is neutral
very little body roll
this is a little stiff on he street but that is a small price to pay for teh added grip
it doesnt push with the 180's?
Posted by: TGM May 8 2006, 01:38 PM
I am considering adding front bar and my question is how much stiffer would I need to go on rear springs?
depends entirely on the size of the front bar ...
AndyThanks Andy. Let's assume the front bar would be a Tarett unit which they claim is equivalent to 22mm solid bar.
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 8 2006, 01:44 PM
I am considering adding front bar and my question is how much stiffer would I need to go on rear springs?
depends entirely on the size of the front bar ...
AndyThanks Andy. Let's assume the front bar would be a Tarett unit which they claim is equivalent to 22mm solid bar.
i have a similar setup TGM,
22tb's, 22 tarrett, 225 springs, and stock rear bar...
with 23's i think you would be pushing... maybe up the rear rate AND add a swaybar? or some combination of springs AND sway to compensate for the large front bar
Posted by: SirAndy May 8 2006, 01:46 PM
Thanks Andy. Let's assume the front bar would be a Tarett unit which they claim is equivalent to 22mm solid bar.
i have the tarett bar and 911 torsion bars which i believe are 23mm. i used to run the 180lbs progressive springs in the rear *without* a rear sway bar and the rear was too soft. i could not even adjust the front bar, i had to run it on full soft (and still had understeer) ...
i added a stock rear sway bar and went to 250lbs straight springs in the rear. now i have the front bar right in the middle and i get just a tad of oversteer, which is gud ...
Andy
Posted by: itsa914 May 8 2006, 02:17 PM
1970 914 with 73 2.0L
21mm Torsion bars with 21mm front sway bar
150lb springs in rear
adjustable rear spring pearchs
no rear bar
Set adjustable koni's to full firm
lowered & corner balanced
Kuhmo 205 50 15's for AXing on Keiser rims
This is my third year AXing and the first with this setup. Our last AX was during some major rain, I beat 2 of the 4 WRX's running and our Hot shoe in his street mod 1970 911. I was 1.5 sec's off TTOD and placed 10th out of 26 drivers. Not bad for using my street tires and heavy rain.
Raw results http://www.inr-scca.org/solo2/2006/2006%20test%20tune_raw_.htm
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