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Posted by: jimkelly May 18 2006, 09:07 AM

http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/

I am thinking of getting this but need to figure out total cost, for tanks, regulators, etc.

Jim

Posted by: Mueller May 18 2006, 09:30 AM

I asked about the Henrob welding torch a while back....http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=21403&b=1&st=&p=&#entry

I thought there were more responses, but I guess not.
I have yet to purchase one, I already have the regular gas welding setup.

Posted by: root May 18 2006, 09:38 AM

Jim,

Here's my recommendation;

Get a MIG. It's really difficult to get clean (uncontaminated, unoxidized welds) welds using non inert gas. The torch you are looking at uses oxygen as one of it gas's right? Well there's no better gas than oxygen to contaminate welds. Argon and other inert oxygen reducing gas's are the key to good welds. The argon blanket that a MIG or TIG lays around the fresh weld minimizes oxidation that occurs instantaneously when metal approach's it's melting point. Get a MIG cause it's easy to learn, works well for most automotive welding, uses argon to keep the weld clean. McMaster has a Lincoln MIG for $600 #7264A11 or yo can get an off brand for alot less at HF.

If you buy the torch.... I'll still let you borrow my MIG when you get frustrated trying to use the torch to perform a MIG's job.

Posted by: jimkelly May 18 2006, 09:49 AM

Root - you feeling better?

Scott Thacher uses propane alone? with welding rods - hum.

Too many options - each with its own limitations.

Posted by: Mueller May 18 2006, 10:01 AM

I agress with root, get a MIG (gas shielded)..then down the road you can get a gas welder and then a TIG if you really get into fabrication and can justify the money.

Posted by: tat2dphreak May 18 2006, 10:02 AM

I would like to know how well this cuts vs. plasma... MIG for welding, but is the cuts really similar to plasma...

Posted by: bondo May 18 2006, 10:10 AM

Plasma cutters can cut aluminum.. beat that!

Gas welding drawbacks: Hard as hell to do, slow

Gas welding benefits: Better if you need to work the welds afterwards (john kelly flares, etc.)

I've read that gas welding causes less warping because it's not as hot, but that's the exact opposite of my experience, probably because I'm not very good at it. I tried gas welding sheet metal on my Mustang, and it warped all to hell before I even got it hot enough to weld. I gave up and bought a mig.

Posted by: tat2dphreak May 18 2006, 10:15 AM

I'm well aware of what plasma can do... but the cost is prohibitive... I borrow my dad's when I can, but he uses it most days(roofing)...

there isn't much aluminum on our cars that needs cutting...

Posted by: smdubovsky May 18 2006, 10:41 AM

Disclaimer: I've never gas welded.

But, it is supposed to be easy to set up an oxy-acetylene torch to have eother an oxidizing flame (excess O2) or a reducing flame (not enough O2). I'd have to check my manuals, but I believe you weld w/ a reducing flame. Cutting ferrous metals is OBVIOUSLLY an oxidizing process (since you can technically turn off the acetylene once the O2 is cranking).

I have a TIG, MIG, and plasma - but have always been temped to buy a gas setup. It really looks to be the non-electric equivalent of TIG. Which does require initial more skill than MIG but is really easy w/ a little practice.

SMD

Posted by: bondo May 18 2006, 10:54 AM

I've always gas welded with a neutral flame, but I don't know if that's correct. I've gas welded and tig welded, and tig is MUCH easier. Gas seems to heat a larger area, at least when I do it. Tig also has the instant control with the foot pedal, the only instant control you have with gas is distance.

I sold my gas welding setup, but I miss it.. mainly for heating things red hot for easy bending, etc.

Posted by: michel richard May 18 2006, 11:55 AM

What happens is that the gas torch is not quite as hot as the arc on a Mig, you therefore compensate by going slower/heating longer, which creates more warpage.

IMHO, almost anything you can do with a Mig, you can do with gas. But you can do a lot more with gas, like weld upside down, braze, cut etc . . . Downside is that getting "good enough" welds is a lot harder with gas. However, the difference in the level of skill required is much smaller if you want to achieve top quality "pressure grade" welds.

I think that for most hobbyists doing routine stuff a Mig is the way to go.

Michel

Posted by: LvSteveH May 18 2006, 12:07 PM

Of all the welding processes, Gas welding is my favorite. It does take a lot of time and practice, but there is just something cool about an open flame. It's a great way to learn welding. If you ever get a chance to see an older guy gas weld who's been doing it for 40+ years, do it! The antique airplane guys are artists.

It doesn't take the place of Mig or anything else, it's just a good option to have in your bag. Your first welds will be UGLY, but they get better and can look like Tig when you get good.

on edit: I just clicked on the link, I've heard those work great, although I've never used one myself. Gas does not have to be that messy, if you’ve ever seen a track burner, they cut really clean, and can cut much thicker plate than a typical plasma setup

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 18 2006, 02:21 PM

I've been welding with oxyacetilene sense high school, I learned how in an afternoon. This torch also cuts, and with oxy you can also braze. No rod no wire on mild steel. Oxy is not the boogieman you are making it out to be.

Posted by: trekkor May 18 2006, 02:35 PM

The MIG welder kit at Home Depot ( HD3200 ) is under $500 and will do any job on our cars. It will weld up to 5/16 plate on the high setting.

It has many voltage and wire speed settings.

If you pick up some metal scraps and sheet metal you can practice all afternoon and start to produce some great welds.

I like using straight CO2 instead of the argon bi-mix.


KT

Posted by: scotty b May 18 2006, 05:25 PM

Jim the Henrob is a great torch BUT it isn't practical for several reasons. 1 Mig is easier, cost is not much different for complete setups with a small mig (175 amp is more than enough for auto body)Gas welding gets the metal hotter than migging it does thus greater warpage. I had to learn it for my certification and yes it was neat but I have used it ONCE in the last 3-4 years and that was to weld some aluminum on a car body, and Ii only did it then because I couldn't afford the $3000.00 for a new tig machine. Something else to think about is the flux needed to gas weld is not nice stuff for your health! Buy a mig and be done faster!!

Posted by: kwales May 18 2006, 05:34 PM

The thing I don't like with gas is the way it oxidizes or burns the metal while you weld. A gas weld will rust much faster than a MIG weld. Additionally, it heats a larger area, and, if you are welding something closed like a rocker panel, the metal is prone to rust from the inside out. With gas, it is very important to go back and treat the inner side of the gas weld.

Ken

Posted by: scotty b May 18 2006, 05:54 PM

Flux is very acidic and is the reason for the rust. When I gas welded the aluminum it would burn my nose if I inhaled the fumes, kinda scary. I also would go back after the weld had cooled, and scrub it clean with a wire brush and water to remove the left over flux.

Posted by: kwales May 18 2006, 06:22 PM

Not all that corrosion is from flux....

Heat bare steel with a combustable gas and oxygen mix and you drive in oxygen..

MIG uses an inert gas so the oxygen never hits the metal when it's melty hot.

The other fun thing with gas is it's jet.... Goes through a butt weld gap and heats things up behind the weld

Did I mention the ordeal of the flaming towel? Quite funny later....

Ken

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 18 2006, 06:31 PM

For mild steel you don't need flux, but you are right it does heat up a larger area.

Posted by: jimkelly May 18 2006, 06:54 PM

So far the concensus is about 50/50.

about 10 for mig and about 10 for mig - is that 50/50 ??

Thanks guys!






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Posted by: smdubovsky May 18 2006, 07:05 PM

Not that simple. MIG does NOT use an inert gas (unless your welding stainless). CO2 isn't inert and some of it it actually splits into C and O2 - adding carbon to the weld (and oxidizing some steel). Thats why pure CO2 give a hotter weld/more penetration than a C25 mix for the same machine settings.

SMD

Posted by: bondo May 18 2006, 07:54 PM

Hmm, is that why mig welds are so darn hard? (extra carbon)

Posted by: John Kelly May 19 2006, 06:07 AM

Here is an old article I wrote comparing the two weld types:

http://metalshapers.org/101/jkelly/index.html

In short, the henrob/dillon/cobra torch is great torch that will do a lot, but so will most small torches with a smaller price tag. I generally use my Victor Jr. I have never tried cutting with my henrob, so I can't speak to that. Check out the Meco midget from Kent White: www.tinmantech.com Small and light weight. The henrob is heavy.

Mig welding is not superior to gas welding, just easier. Welds shrink no matter the type. Shrinkage from gas welding is easy to stretch, mig welding shrinkage is not. The metal that is gas welded is softer and easier to work afterwards....no grinding is required just a little sanding or file work.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

Posted by: jimkelly May 19 2006, 06:39 AM

John,

Thanks for that info - lightweight and decent price !

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.php

I am leaning mig - but like the idea of an old school open flame and filler rods : )