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Posted by: TROJANMAN May 22 2006, 09:55 AM

First has never been a problem. In fact, in high school, i used to just sometimes skip to second and steal third, before taking home.

But this weekend, first became a problem. The story goes as such:
I drove the car 5000 miles to what felt like the center of the earth in a small town called Lamar,CO. The place they show on the news every morning as the day's "hot spot" in the state. I proceeded to track the car on Satruday and Sunday. (BTW there is absolutlety no reason to EVER travel east of Denver. It all looks the same, and you can actually see the curvature of the earth.)

First gear was fine all weekend, no problems. After my second to last run, it was gone. I say second to last, because i tracked the car one more time without first gear and without any problems. Every other gear is just fine. No problems shifting, or finding any other gear. I drove the car home without incident. (hit 118 on the speedo. and trust me NO ONE was around) We drained half the tranny oil at the track, and there was no metal to be found. I just can't find first gear. We checked the linkage, and everything seems to be moving ok, except when i am looking for first. all bushings appear to be in tact, and i am guessing if i had a problem with my firewall bushing, i would not be able to shift so smoothly to the other 4 gears (+reverse) that i am using. I did have some slight grind when finding third on the track, and maybe i was hitting first, but i sincerely doubt it. especially since my fist gear has always been tempramental. I only ever shift into first when i am at a complete stop, and i wait for it to pop in, before attempting to move forward. Plus, I didn't grind any other gears all weekend, just on the last run, and it was only, ever so slight. BTW, on the track, I only used 3,4, and 5. 1st and 2nd were only used at the starter.

Thanks in Advance

(brant, care to add.....?)

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 22 2006, 10:10 AM

If you are not making it to first base it could be your Prostate gland.

You did not mention wether you checked your clutch adjustment. If you did and the cable is fine also than it could be the sancro ring. If allowed to expand to much it won't mesh like normal. But double check your bushings and linkage.

Posted by: Ferg May 22 2006, 10:16 AM

5000 miles is alot in a weekend

Describe what it feels like when you are trying to engage? How is Reverse? Are you able to shift into first "area" and it's just not there, or are you not even able to go against the spring and down...

Ferg

Posted by: rhodyguy May 22 2006, 10:18 AM

is the linkage freeplay the same, side to side and front to rear, for each while 2nd and 3rd are engaged, respectively? the shifter handle may have slid a bit on the front shift rod.

k

Posted by: Dr Evil May 22 2006, 10:24 AM

If you can shift into reverse then the shift fork is installed and it is not a shifter problem.

What sounds do you get when you try 1st?

From my own experiences:
-If your shift rod was binding a little on your engine mount bar then your synchro band would soon become shinny = bad.
- It is possible for your brake band stop and pillow block to come out of your synchro band (rare, but possible).


What you should do is take the tail cone off and check your 1st gear and related items.
Things to note:
-Index the shift fork rod so you can reinstal the fork inthe same position again (keeps your fork alignment nice so you dont have to pull the stack to readjust).
-Remove the fork, slider, and 1st gear.
-Take pics so we can see.

Posted by: LvSteveH May 22 2006, 10:25 AM

Are you sure it's not operator error? If I recall first gear was rather elusive in Mike's car at Joe's BBQ.

Oh, and you might want to check your linkage connections, particularly where the shifter connects to the shift rod. If it slipped during spirited driving, first may now be outside the range of motion of the shifter. You would typically have trouble with reverse too, as they are on the same plane, but it's worth checking based on your description.

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 22 2006, 10:26 AM

front to rear, it does not move as far when trying to find first. side to side and every other gear is fine.
clutch is not out of adjustment, and the cable is good.
i can find the "area" (i think), but cannot go against the spring and down, it just wants to pop out. Every other gear is smooth.

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 22 2006, 10:28 AM

That was second, smart ass. someone put reverse where second is supposed to be on mike's car

reverse is fine on my car. no problems there either. just no first.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut May 22 2006, 10:31 AM

Heh, I can vouch for that! When I left the Navy (Charleston, SC) and drove home (Philomath, OR) in my VW, I took the middle of the USA. Kansas was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I swore that if I was from that area I would've re-enlisted -- and I couldn't stand the Navy! For a while it was just me and some older lady in a BMW, cruising at 80mph...

As to your problem, are your cone screws snug? Sounds like you've covered everything else.

Posted by: rhodyguy May 22 2006, 10:39 AM

not to be redundant, while reverse is engaged, does there seem to be alot of fore/aft freeplay. before you tear the trans apart... take a peek at the shift lever frnt rod connection point. you may even see a little "witness" line where it has slipped. then inspect the rear cup bushing at the rear shift rod.

k

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 22 2006, 10:40 AM

what sounds?
#$%&^@! (wait, that's the sound of me cursing)

I do not believe the shift rod is binding. (but where it would it be binding?) every other gear is quite smooth. and there was no chunks of anything in my gear oil.

why is the your second diagnosis so rare? that sounds more possible, if everything else is clean, doesn't it?


kev,
no freeplay in reverse. rear cup bushing appears ok. i will check the front conncection tonight.



thanks everyone. this is great

Posted by: LvSteveH May 22 2006, 10:48 AM

Ok, we are done being nice.

Loosen the shift rod at the shifter, put the trans in 2nd gear by hand, put the shift lever where you want 2nd to be (top and center) snug the nut down, and check your pattern. Repeat as needed until everything is right with the world again. Then tighten the adjuster nut fully.

Posted by: rhodyguy May 22 2006, 10:51 AM

that helps loads(i think). wag is the shifter connection has slid on the front rod. mark where it rests now with a sharpey(sp) and move the shifter connection forward on the front rod. i hope for your sake that is all it is.

k

Posted by: brant May 22 2006, 11:35 AM

I have a tiny bit to add..
I crawled under the car while greg was inside shifting.
the shift rod itself moved 1/2 inch less for 1st gear than it did for 3rd or 5th.

it is not moving far enough to engage first. It is not sloppy.. just won't move physically far enough

from inside the car, I could feel first... barely. the reason it is "popping" out of first is because it is only barely engaging... not enough to fully engage or stay in.

(by the way greg... do not try to use 1st at all, because if it pops out enough times... it will ruin the dog on 1st. = $400)

I checked bushings and cone screws.
there are only 2 things I think it could be=
1) not likely... something is physically blocking the shift lever from moving... doesn't seem likely since it goes into 3rd and 5th fully normal.
2) more likely... something inside the tranny is preventing the full range of motion. Likely a shift fork loosened up or else the brake band retainer broke or cracked enough to cause it to interfer with range of motion

greg
the brake band is what greg johnson diagnosed at the track when I talked to him.

but this thread is still great and useful.
someone may come up with the solution!

brant

Posted by: 2-OH! May 22 2006, 01:24 PM

Maybe someone has already suggested this as I did not read all the post completely...

Disconnect the shift rod from the transmission...Physically move the lever sticking out of the transmission and see if you can physically feel 5 gears and reverse...Or, you can remove the lever housing (now you need a new O-ring) and just move the forks to see if you can feel the gears...If you can, then the problem is in the linkage and not the transmission...Or Vice Versa...

2-OH!

Posted by: Dr Evil May 22 2006, 03:13 PM

I would bet the break band and the pillow blocks are forcing the synchro band out so that it can not compress causing it to not engauge. It is rare because it doesnt happen often (duh). This doesnt mean it can't happen to you, just that you have particularly crappy luck It could be worse if we are right. If you need parts, let me know as I have acess to new parts fro less than any other place that I have seen.

Sounds similar to what you say Greg said.


Time to take the tail cone off

It is not all that bad.

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 23 2006, 11:24 AM

Brant,

Would you describe the gear oil we drained as having a gold sheen?

Thanks mike, for your time on the phone today

Posted by: MW 914 May 23 2006, 01:43 PM

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 23 2006, 01:47 PM

Keep laughing AZ boy.
you're spending a whole lotta cash to mount a nice motor to a tired tranny.

Posted by: MW 914 May 23 2006, 01:57 PM

Don't stop there....I'm spending a lot of money to find out my tranny sucks, my brakes suck, my tires suck....the list will go on I'm sure.

Posted by: LvSteveH May 23 2006, 03:04 PM

I just got a six conversion with PMO's, NOS oil tank, fabulous PMS mount bar, etc for less than Mike's motor, and it included a free car!

Posted by: Dr. Roger May 23 2006, 07:02 PM

mine didn't go into first when the clutch did not fully disengage. clutch adjustment required with too much play.

also needed a readjustment of the front shift linkage.

i was pleasantly surprised to find that i could make my shifter pattern more to my liking. more rearward and to the left while still fully engaging the gears.

just had to throw my $.02 in. =-)

Posted by: MW 914 May 23 2006, 07:55 PM

Hey Steve.... Oh yeah....to my good friend Greg,

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 23 2006, 08:01 PM

Enough of this prattle and uninformed speculation, most of which looks like the poster never read the question. Back to the problem! If you can't engage first gear with the linkage disconnected, drain the oil, lower the tranny a bit, and pull the cover. Sounds like something in the synchro came adrift. Might be a toasted slider, but it sounds more like it's in the gear. Report back, with pix. The Cap'n

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 24 2006, 10:05 AM

So i drove the car again last night. Essentially, i was "assuming the postion"
I backed it in and out of the garage, and onto ramps. No problem whatsoever finding reverse, or shifting into second.
I plan on opening her up on saturday morn.
I will have a couple of spare tranny's available for picking parts from if necessary , and will report back with pics
I hope some of you are online saturday for help and encouragement.

Thanks for all the feedback

Posted by: Dr Evil May 24 2006, 11:49 AM

Probably not Sat, but I can help you Sun (on line). Other than that, you have my # if you get stuck. Its fun scaring you about how to fix your tranny

Posted by: SLITS May 24 2006, 04:55 PM

Make sure Gimp is there with his WHITE LeMans Jacket on! Oh, and if you can get Clay Perrine to come up from Tejas, he's short enough to walk under the tranny without jackstands

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 24 2006, 05:02 PM

"But the Gimp's sleeping."

Posted by: brant May 28 2006, 09:21 AM

hey gang...
what is the update
must have been nice to have a guru right on scene with you.

my hotmail is down, someone update me

brant

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 28 2006, 03:55 PM

Time to rebuild First. I'll have to get some pictures of what we found, but essentially, I need to replace the Syncro Band, Dogteeth, and Slider. All were worn pretty good.
I had the pleasure of having a man by the name of Grady Clay come over and assist in the tear down. He is an incredible assett to the Porsche community, and had some fantastic stories to share. At one time, he owned 38 porsches, 2 of which were 904's that he purchased for $6000 each, and later sold for much, much, much, more.
He currently owns 4 914-6's and a few others.

We disassembled my tranny from the tailcone, then took a look see at the insides of 3 other trannies (thanks steve). Gint got his shorts dirty and Brian Munday showed up to his first CO event

I'll post pics later.

Posted by: LvSteveH May 28 2006, 04:59 PM

But the question still remains...... why wouldn't it go into first? Inquiring minds want to know.

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 28 2006, 05:18 PM

because everything was worn.
when we played with the parts off of the car, we had a hard time engaging the slider onto the teeth due to the wear.

Posted by: Dr Evil May 28 2006, 05:22 PM

Can't wait to see the internals of 1st gear.

Posted by: Dr Evil May 28 2006, 05:35 PM

Oh sure, I can send you all of the parts prices, OR you can tell me what you need and save me a but load of work

WHAT DO YOU NEED?

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 29 2006, 10:08 AM

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Posted by: TROJANMAN May 29 2006, 10:12 AM

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Posted by: TROJANMAN May 29 2006, 10:13 AM

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Posted by: SLITS May 29 2006, 10:16 AM

Did Ahandie take the second image?

"Grind me a pound"

Posted by: majkos May 29 2006, 12:23 PM

AHhh the pictures are so blurry, it looks fine!!

Show the damages!!

Posted by: Dr Evil May 29 2006, 10:22 PM

OK, the one side of the 1st gear slider is supposed to be flat....there is nothing for it to engauge to so no need for teeth. I wanted to see what i looked like together (synchro band bulge factor).

What condition were the brake band and blocks in?

So far you can use the typical; slider, teeth, synchro band....notice the groove in teh synchro band where the dog teeth wore in? Not exactly correct me thinks.

Posted by: TROJANMAN May 30 2006, 09:25 AM

i plan on replacing the bands as well.

Posted by: Dr Evil May 31 2006, 05:44 PM

Your parts are on their way

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:24 AM

This is the famous part of the day where GINT got his shorts dirty, and according to brian,
whined, A LOT


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:26 AM

Brian Mundane really liking the fact that he moved to Brokeback Country
admiring Gint's Zambeziteenie


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:27 AM

Myself and Dan(shelby/914) watching Gint fabricate a jackstand out of a 2x4


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:30 AM

The happiest Gint ever looks


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:33 AM

Turns out I have a Pelican 911 neighbor. He was nice enough to show up with an ATV jack to help me raise my tranny. The jack worked better when we figured out we can't trun wrenches in the opposite direction at the same time.


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:36 AM

Grady Clay, just before he shed blood. The tailcone was stuck, and grady lost some skin popping it off. Grady is a true Porsche Expert, and a really neat guy to talk to about cars


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:38 AM

This is me thinking about how much i wish i owned a lift


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Posted by: LvSteveH Jun 7 2006, 10:40 AM

The good news is that with it all torn down for new parts you'll also get the linkage adjusted properly and it should all work great.

Your old parts look like but without a catastrophic failure, I can't see how first would just go away all together unless it was in the shifter throw.

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:41 AM

Dave Harris - '72 914 + Factory 914-6GT kit + all Alu & Ti SBC
as featured in Christophorus.
He says he did one of the first ever V8 conversions on a 914 back in 71.


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:43 AM

Gint pointing out that there might be something wrong with my transmisison


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 10:44 AM

Gint's cute little zambiteenie parked next to the mommy wagon


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Posted by: Gint Jun 7 2006, 11:04 AM

Finally! For all of us that have spent countless hours under Greg's 914, here is undeniable proof that he can actually hold a wrench and use it to apply force to a 914 part.

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 11:20 AM

more internal pics


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 11:27 AM

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Posted by: Dr Evil Jun 7 2006, 12:01 PM

Nice and flat....you will REALY like the new one, then. Finally learned how to take pics, eh?

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 01:09 PM

Not sure how the linkage would have gotten out of whack, but it's possible.
There were no missing parts to 1st when we tore it down, the linkage was PERFECT for every other gear. Everything looked as it should when i disconnected the shift rod. I had a new firewall bushing put in, in February.

Posted by: brant Jun 7 2006, 01:12 PM

Greg,

go ahead and pull the boot off of the forward knuckle of the linkage and inspect that firewall bushing again too.

brant

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 01:19 PM

why, so i can get pissed if it is all torn up, and find out i never should have dismantled my tranny in the first place? Ignorance is bliss



I'll try and do that tonight.

Posted by: brant Jun 7 2006, 01:49 PM

na....
I don't think its that bushing
(way to smooth in all the other gears)

but as long as you have the shift rod out, its worth checking

brant

Posted by: LvSteveH Jun 7 2006, 03:13 PM

I'm just giving you a hard time Greg. Actually, you'll know if it slipped at the shifter when you get it all back together assuming you leave the adjustment where was. If all is right with the world again, then it was certainly internal. I'm just surprised you couldn't get into first at all.

Your slider was trashed, no doubt, so no harm in taking care of it now. I'd pay to be in the car the first time you grind the new slider

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 7 2006, 03:17 PM

pretty funny

Posted by: brant Jun 7 2006, 03:20 PM

how much would you pay?
(? enough to buy a 2nd hand 69S motor?)

brant

Posted by: Gint Jun 7 2006, 03:22 PM

I plan to be standing by with a camera...

Posted by: majkos Jun 11 2006, 08:48 AM

Sorry,no see wrench, and no see a turnin'

Posted by: majkos Jun 11 2006, 08:51 AM

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 24 2006, 03:54 PM

My car's a runner again !


And Gint left too early to watch me NOT grind first gear

I'll post pics in a little bit.........

Mike - Where did you get those first gear dog teeth? there was some discussion about their origin as did they not look OEM.

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 24 2006, 04:07 PM

Gint wiping his hands after they got dirty "cooking breakfast"
gud stuff mike


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 24 2006, 04:08 PM

Everyone talking about how "screwed" brian is with his fourth gear problem.
I gave him the opportunity to practice turning a wrench
"Lefty loosey, brian"


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 24 2006, 04:09 PM

ben martin pointing out to brian munday that the car does not have a water pump


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Posted by: TROJANMAN Jun 24 2006, 04:16 PM

the "professor" grady clay, after a quick spin to make sure everything was assembled properly
And trust, Grady really IS a Porsche professor. Everyone was listening to his lesson plan today.
In addtion to helping assist in replacing my first gear, he showed all how to reset a Ring and Pinion on a spare tranny someone brought.
Pretty cool stuff He showed us some pretty expensive tools.


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Posted by: Red-Beard Jun 24 2006, 08:37 PM

I just looked at your pics. The dog teeth were gone. The synch band was definitely done. The slider was in ~ok~ shape. I would have reused it in a rebuild with some clean up and dremel repointing. OTOH, it didn't hurt replacing it. Fixing 1st gear is pretty easy with the tanny in the car, but then, yanking the whole stack and fixing the rest of the synch bands isn't too much more...

Posted by: Dr Evil Jun 24 2006, 09:42 PM

Hey James,
Where you been? Stop stirring the pot...he needed everything I sold him

Greg, I too noted that the teeth looked as if they were of a different metal. My supplier only sells OE stuff, though. I have gotten similar looking parts from Pel and GPR from time to time.

Posted by: TROJANMAN Jul 6 2006, 10:43 AM

Here are http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284811&perpage=20&highlight=denver&pagenumber=2 from the 1st gear swap. Grady took some pretty good before and after pics of the dogs and syncro.

Mike, feel free to post your ring and pinion questions to grady in that linked thread