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Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2003, 11:05 PM

I got the Tarett strut mounts, sway bar & suspenders on this weekend.

Naturally I shot a few pics.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2003, 11:06 PM

and more

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2003, 11:07 PM

OK,if you insist, one more

The down link is nifty. It has left & right hand threads.
A hole thru the link allows a .25 rod to be inserted.
Loosen the lock nuts, turn the rod and it expands or contracts the link.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 23 2003, 11:10 PM

Interesting that you used the "washer" from the old mount on the top of the Tarret strut mount.

I'm guessing you did this so you could tighten the nut down and hold the strut.

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 23 2003, 11:13 PM

Can you shoot one more pic for me ??

I would like for you to fully load one of the front control arms (put a jack under it and lift until the body starts to com off your "stands" Then shoot a pic of the sway bar drop link. I want to know if the heim joints go into bind when under load.

You will have to support the other side also.

B

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2003, 11:15 PM

Yup.....that was the only thing I didn't like about the set up. I'm gonna call Ira & find out what he recommends there....prolly what I did?....Also ....for lack of a better idea, I put the supplied thick washer on top of the the concave washer

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2003, 11:24 PM

I can do that, but I gotta take the opposite down link off and pull the T bar caps. I tried jacking it but it lifted off the blocks just from the gas charge in both shox. From what I can tell...eyeballing.... it ain't gonna bind, even at full soft & full compression.

I have to do this nohow to check camber.....2 steps foreward and one step back.

I also ended up grinding about .08 from the inside of the shock tower hole to get the mounts up against the inner fender/tower thingy.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 23 2003, 11:27 PM

BE VERY CAREFUL the first time you shut the hood. I dont use the old strut washer. I reach down and hold the strut/strut cover and tighten it down. I'm not sure which washer your makeing reference too when you say "concave" washer. You should NOT be using the strut washer with the metal locking tab. The Ny-lock nuts took the place of these way back.

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 23 2003, 11:31 PM

The key is: You dont want it to bind anywhere in the adjustment of the bar in full compression or full droop. It really looks good on you car.


The problems with the Welt bar and those stock tabs: the bar may not bind on the drop links when you have it set full soft... but go full stiff on the bar and the drop links can go into bind.

I havent had time to document this...


B

Posted by: Dave Cawdrey Feb 23 2003, 11:35 PM

Dang, that bar is purdy 'nuff to buy one. By god, Mueller's got mine

Paypal this week, okie dokey Mike?

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 23 2003, 11:36 PM

The concave/convex washer in the pic....the bigun'.
And, yes, I was eyeballin' the top of the insert....humm, it seems higher than before...I'll be careful, thanx.

There is a thick(.25) washer just below the nut. If necessary, I can shitcan it and take a grinder to the top of the strut.

BTW, my Welt bar bound up, set soft, at compression.....right down there where you said.
I posted pics, somewhere. I figured I could fix it, tho.....I gots power tools

Posted by: krk Feb 24 2003, 12:47 AM

JP,

Your car is frikk'n clean and beautiful. All of the pic's you've posted have been head turner's and definitely 'lighthouse' quality. (I spent the day staining mahogany -- if I want to ever get back to Mere Car Hell™, I have to complete this house! Your car, and others I've seen on this bbs are providing ample motivation.) Thx for posting!

kim.

ps. Your ceiling needs painting. lol.

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 24 2003, 01:01 AM

You shouldn't need that big washer; just the smaller tabbed one and the big nyloc nut up top. This pic is with my old (914-4 boge) struts but is approx how it still looks now -

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 24 2003, 01:06 AM

In the past.. I have had to cut down the Bilstein threads that hang out of the installed nut. I say shitcan the concave washer. Your asking for trouble by moving the nut up. It will hit on one of the X braces in the hood.


B

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 24 2003, 01:16 AM

Great looking set up. Looks like a productive weekend all around.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 24 2003, 01:22 AM

Ok, bear with me here.
If I use the small tab washer, how do I keep the strut from turning? ....Get hold of that thin tab washer with channel locks or something?
A pipe wrench on the tube, maybe ?
The dust covers are history and have no tab nohow.

The stuff above the mount has no effect on the height of the strut shaft. To get it lower, something would have to go below the mount.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 24 2003, 01:30 AM

I left a word out in my early post: Dont use the locking thin plate or the concave.

Do you have air tools ??

I hold the shock cover (under the fender) and hit the nut with a airgun. The Bilsteins are very strong up top (dont try this with Koni's unless you set the airgun on a low setting)

You can use a ratchet also, but you have to be able to multi-task. Hold the cover and pull on the ratchet.

If you dont have the cover on the shock... just hold the shaft with your bare hand. That upper nut only gets torqued too 20 some odd lb-ft. You should be able to hold the shock to get this.

B

Posted by: jonwatts Feb 24 2003, 01:44 AM

Speaking of shock covers, do they need to be run with today's replacement shocks or are they just dead weight?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 24 2003, 01:53 AM

Street car.. sure why not. Nothing much to be gained or lost by running them or not. All the new shocks have a seal that keeps crap out.

B

Posted by: jonwatts Feb 24 2003, 01:58 AM

Speaking of keeping crap out keep an eye out for a beer commercial where a guy shows up at a bar in a '70's vette with personalized plates that say "THE BRAD"

I died when I saw it. Seems too new to find on the web yet.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 24 2003, 02:06 AM

OK, so I went out and checked.(it's cold out.....ah....west coast cold....30ish.)
The nut hits a hood stiffener on one side. It's dented from some past abuse already. It looks like it will clear the shaft, however.

I'll either go get one of them strap wrenches or take my monster pair of channel locks to the tube above the working surface....looks like I can get hold of it above the chrome.

Have I got an impact wrench? You have to ask? ....I'm appalled . Normaly, I use *them* for disassembly only. I think I'll make an exception in this case.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 24 2003, 02:11 AM

The problem normally rears its ugly head AFTER the aggressive negative camber alignmet. I know you have decent paint and didn't want you to "ding" the hood the first time you shut it AFTER the alignment.

Jon,

I have seen the comercial.. it has been out for awhile.


B

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 24 2003, 02:14 AM

I admit to being a tad nervous about running without any dust cover....a misnomer if there ever was one.

What concerns me is gravel putting nicks in the chrome. the nicks can be very abrasive to the guts of the shocks.......seals, sleave bearings. I'll keep a close eye on em'. If I detect any problems, I'll be lookin' for some rubber bellows type gravel guards.

krk:
Glad you enjoy my drivel....I'll keep it up
Ayup, come summer I gots to do some paintin'......after the car's done. Ya gotta have priorities,eh?

Posted by: krk Feb 24 2003, 02:45 AM

JP:

Dude, your car is serious! And that's good to see. My house reno will be completed (or I'll be dead) by summer, and the p-cars will get the attention they deserve! 'Till then, I live vicariously thru others.... my car must look like yours one day. Period.

Hope your racing year kicks ass!

kiim.

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 24 2003, 02:34 PM

"We" (i.e. mechanic while I watched) used the air wrench on the top nut of my new struts. I don't know if I have seen anybody who actually has/uses the special slotted bilstein shaft holder tool. Blipping it with the air wrench did the trick just fine. Then the edge of the thin slotted washer is bent up, as an extra measure, just in case the nyloc nut decides to work itself loose.

I can take a hi-res close up pic if it would help.

BTW the P.O. of my car had a strut top issue at one time; there's a nice dimple in the front lid on the right side, where the strut shaft comes up. Oops.

Posted by: Don Wohlfarth Feb 24 2003, 02:41 PM

JP, take a look at your picture of the top of your strut showing the nut and washer.
There's something that looks screwy here with the angle of the strut going thru the the strut mount. Now look at the picture that Campbelljc posted without the washer. You can visualize the angle of the strut versus your setup that looks a little strange. Just something to check.
Doubt you will be able to get more than 1.5 degree's neg without enlarging the hole that the strut mount goes thru.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 24 2003, 03:11 PM

Ok, we fixem'.
Don:
The strut mounts are offset to allow the top of the strut to move inboard. There's a mono ball in there rotating to compensate for the angulation. Having said that, I did use up about all there is. It's about .02 from binding. I still have to cycle the suspension up to insure there is no bind at full compression and also to check camber at the new ride height. Here's a pic with a better view of the thing. If you flip back to Chris's pic and compare the 2 You'll notice that he has a gap on the inboard side
and I have a gap on the outboard side.

Posted by: Don Wohlfarth Feb 24 2003, 03:49 PM

From your first picture it just looked a little strange to me, something to check for sure. Your second picture without the washer shows that everything's fine. Put a little clay or dumdum on the top of the strut shaft and sloooowly close the hood. May have to hit the shaft with a file to gain a little clearance. Notice before pic that threads didn't clear the nyloc nut and after pic you've got 2 or 3 threads showing.
Please post your first reading on neg camber.

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 24 2003, 11:07 PM

Hey JP - BTW, what device and/or technique are you using to read/set your camber? I figure I need to get up to speed (so to speak) with that capability before too long.

Posted by: ChrisReale Feb 25 2003, 12:09 AM

He uses a super hi tech pen and draws on his car
Just kidding

Posted by: jonwatts Feb 25 2003, 12:30 AM

I heard he drives a 10 penny nail into each tire and connects them with a string.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 25 2003, 04:06 AM

It ain't much more complicated than my "friends" have said.

All you need to know is the run and the rise.
I have the car sitting level...within .100 or better..close enuff.

A carpenters level and a machinist's rule.....the rule is: don't screw the pooch

I bolt on a wheel, mark points 15 inches appart on the rim, the top & bottom. That's the run. Hold the level plumb and measure at the points. The difference twixt the 2 is the rise. Lets say the rise measures .52..... .52/15=.034666 (inverse tangent on your calculator) =1.985 deg.

So, if the wheel is leaning in at the top between .5 & .6 in. you're in 2 deg. the ball park. Close enuff to take it to the alignment guy.

Or you can spend 200 bucks for a gauge to do this.

A set of trammel points would be good, but mine have disappeared.

Posted by: Dman Feb 25 2003, 11:43 AM

This is kind of an unrelated question but when you put the wheels and brakes back on are you going to reinstall the sheet metal guard/cover.

I am in the process of doing a 911 front strut conversion an the ones I have are kind of bent up.
I was wondering if you get better brake cooling with, or without them?

BTW JP your stuff looks great!

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 25 2003, 11:46 AM

Somehow I just had this intuition that you hadn't sprung a few hundred bones for one of them fancy triangle gauges with laser beams and all that newfangled wizbang stuff

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 25 2003, 11:48 AM

I have been running without the shields not really because of cooling, but to avoid the problem of having crap (sticks, stones, small animals) get stuck between the rotor and the shield. It is very easy to do in a track "off".

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 25 2003, 01:16 PM

The sheilds didn't make the cut this time.
I have a nice set of fronts if ya need em'.
I woud have put them back on if were doing more street dtiving. The rears have been gone for some time.

As for alignment.
When I get the car on the ground, I'll set the ride height and recheck the camber. The rear is pretty much locked in, me thinks. At the front, I have the struts set at max camber & caster. I may just tell the alignment guy to leave those specs alone, but double check me.

All I have lest to do is reinstall the gas tank, bleed the brakes, check the valbes, and fill the motor with oil ......uh....rack spacers, damn...get some.

Posted by: Sammy Feb 25 2003, 04:35 PM

You aughta build some bathroom scales into them cool lookin boxes you got so's you can do a corner balance while yer at it

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 25 2003, 10:07 PM

JP - pretty sure I have an extra Welt rack spacer kit. Email me your address if you want it chris@nosubstitute.org

I actually ended up with an extra turbo tie rod kit as well; I spose that could go up on the classifieds.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 26 2003, 02:58 PM

I would like to find a way to weigh/corner balance the car.
The proper scales sold for this are prohibitively expensive (for me)....in the 1K + range.
8ea. 400lb bathroom scales would do the trick. Most only go to 300 lbs.
Surely some one in this crew has come up with something.
Anybody gots a plan?....remember, cheep is gud.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 26 2003, 03:01 PM

I have a Scale/Lever system that uses bathroom scales (had to start somewhere) Its a complete kit (minus cheapy home scales) I think I paid 200$ for it. Works well. Semi dificult to setup, but works.

B

Posted by: Justin Fischer Feb 26 2003, 03:06 PM

Hey JP,

Here is a link to a PP thread about corner balancing utilizing bathroom scales:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76742&highlight=corner+AND+scales

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 26 2003, 03:07 PM

Those are the ones I have used in the past.

B

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 26 2003, 03:10 PM

If it involves smoke, mirrors, wires, levers and duct tape, it's right up my alley.

Gotta drag out my Harbor Freight cataloge and see whut the Chinese do.

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 26 2003, 03:14 PM

Ah.....what's the conversion factor? Looks like 3-4 to 1.
Are there 2 of these rigs or 4?

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 26 2003, 03:32 PM

Ah....looked at the thread. I can make some of them
outta wood....use a 2:1 ratio....in keeping with my CSOB philosophy....then convert them to firewood.
I detect the formulation of a plan here.

Posted by: Sammy Feb 26 2003, 08:20 PM

I seem to remember a picture of some kind of lever looking hand jack that has a gauge on it, it's made just fer corner balancing. It has a lip that hooks onto the lip of the wheel and you pick it up just far enough to move a piece of paper from under the wheel. Anybody used one of those?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 26 2003, 10:39 PM

Nope, but I've seen some used at the track. They're considered "old school" now. They're not tremendously accurate--the measurements don't repeat that closely. But they are a damn sight better than nothing at all...

--DD

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 27 2003, 12:31 AM

I guess some of us are "lucky" to live in big cities where we can drive to a dozen different shops within a half hour radius that have some of these spendy tools available.

There's gotta be some kind of industrial/freight scale that has a higher capacity and is decently accurate without costing a fortune?

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 27 2003, 01:50 PM

I guess I really need to get a good book on suspension tuning.....any suggestions?

I was doing some day dreaming at wurk and got to wondering about weight jacking with the anti roll bar....or just adding/deleting roll stiffness to one side
This new Tarett bar *seems* to make it easy. Some scales would prove/disprove this WAG.

Our AX venue most often includes a double loop around 2 180 deg sweepers or a sweeper at one end and a hairpin at the other.....kind of a mini oval
with joggles in the straights. I *think* a guy could make up some time there if the car was set up to handle those sweepers better. ...or maybe I should day dream bout other stuff.

So may adjustments, so little knowlegde.....I kin turn this thing into an evil handling pig.

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 1 2003, 05:12 PM

Someone (Don?)asked me to post the camber settings after I was *done*.

Right on -2 deg. There is nuthin' more to be had. This is with the ride height dropped .75 in. The A arms are just below(ball joint is lower) level. I get more neg camber thru the whole range of suspension compression...go figure

There is no binding anywhere in the suspension travel range/full stiff/soft settings on the Tarett bar.
I furgot to take a pic....trust me

The rack spacers are in....thanx, Chris....Tie rods run uphill (higher at the steering knuckle) just a bit.

Posted by: Jeroen Mar 1 2003, 06:50 PM

Hey JP,

So, when can we expect the first running report?

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 1 2003, 08:11 PM

With luck, next weekend. It's still gotta go to the alignment chop.....he can be a stinker to get into.

There's a SCCA "test" AX next Sunday....A DE at PIR the following Friday. I hope to make one or both of them.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 2 2003, 09:36 AM

As for books, there are a few oldies... One of 'em is almost as old as you, JP!!

"How to Make Your Car Handle", by Fred Puhn. Old, but still fairly relevant.
"XXX to Win" (Prepare to Win, Engineer to Win, etc.) by Carroll Smith. More oriented to all-out race cars than street cars that see the track, but a lot of good info.
...Rats, there are others I know but I can't remember the titles offhand. I think one was "Race Car Engineering and Design" by Paul Frere?

Anyway, there are lots of good books on the subject. I have found that relatively few of them deal with our particular form of madness--they either talk about scratch-built race cars, or Stock Cars (NASCRAP stuff), or other such-like, but most don't deal with street cars.

--DD

Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 2 2003, 01:25 PM

what benefit does the aftermarket strutholder do/ have? is it like the cambermeister / elephant racing monoball camber keeper thingy's ? nice setup..looks great on your car! .....i like the clean look of everything without the cool air bok / fan and all the ducting....looks great!
(new to the whole aftermarket thing )

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 2 2003, 08:56 PM

The Tarett mount is offest. It gives more negative camber....also has a monoball in there.

Hey, Jeroen.........

OTG, just add gas & oil and it'll be ready to Rock &.....ah.... head for the alignment chop....then Roll.

Speakin' of rocks, that's what if feels like when I plop
my skinny ass down on a fender....no move.

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 4 2003, 02:09 PM

Thursday morning we go to the alignment shop.
That means that tomorrow I get to wake ulf from its "long winters nap".....that's always fun, particularly when I have to do it by my self. I disturbed many things that were nicely sealed up.
Maybe I can call on one of my retired buddys for moral support....I'd supply ear plugs and a gas mask.

I would like to take this opportunity to bitch about
the price of Mobli 1......64 bucks a case.....auugh.

Anyhew, if it don't rain on Sunday and all goes well,
I get to go AX and see what it feels like.

Schedule, Jeroen, schedule.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 5 2003, 12:38 PM

JP, give a look into Delvac oil. Comes in 4-qt bottles, and is supposed to be a very good synthetic oil. Intended for diesels, but also rated for spark engines. I believe that it can be bought for less than M-1 pretty easily.

It's even made by Mobil, if that's important to ya.

--DD