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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 11:49 AM

Here we go.

I arrived at 5:30 am this morning from SD (I left at 7:30pm)

First shots are coming off the camera.

Here we go. Stand back.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 11:53 AM

WDSADF


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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 11:56 AM

Trying to figure out the shop computers (that I put in place..lol)

B


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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 11:59 AM

Andy's rear shock WAS bad...




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Posted by: JPB May 27 2006, 12:01 PM

Cool I-Beam rig, must make one, can't resist urge, evil enchantress of hell! Oh ya, got no room, ahhhh.

Posted by: Jeroen May 27 2006, 12:03 PM

Holy crap Batman...

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 12:06 PM

Check out the shock shaft!!. The shock exploded all over Mark!

B


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Posted by: trekkor May 27 2006, 12:08 PM

Live broadcast...I love it!


KT

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 12:08 PM

There was a Carrera in the parking lot when we arrived!!




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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 12:11 PM

This is going REALLY quickly!!!

Pete Stout from Excellence magazine (feature editor) with hands in his pockets (playing pocket pool..LOL) he is winning.





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Posted by: Jeroen May 27 2006, 12:14 PM

So Pete's giving instructions eh?
Say hi to everyone there for me!
Would have loved to be there and errrr... give instructions like Pete

Posted by: michelko May 27 2006, 12:15 PM

Very nice

Keep on posting, What happend to the shock???

greetings to all!

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 12:23 PM

I love doing live updates. We will post away with pics..!!!




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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 12:24 PM

Suspension out. We will have it on the bench in less than an hour.




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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 12:26 PM

rtwet


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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 01:44 PM

Got shims?

If you have this many shims...your tub is BENT


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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 01:48 PM

DaveD really gets on his work..or into it.


B


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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 01:49 PM

eddasd


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Posted by: Jacco May 27 2006, 01:59 PM

Cool stuff, interesting to see how this evolves!
Good luck and keep the visuals commin'

Posted by: spare time toys May 27 2006, 02:15 PM

What was the tip off to drive you to doing this?

Posted by: davep May 27 2006, 02:19 PM

That is a small fortune in shims. That will help offset some of the cost of the Cellete.
We need to know about that exploding shock.

Say Hi to Pete Stout for me. I'm working on that article for the GT I found in Canada.

Posted by: Dr Evil May 27 2006, 02:19 PM

Cool Brad. I guess this means the Swedish chick turned you down, eh?

Posted by: Engman May 27 2006, 02:21 PM

Damn - there goes my shim market!



M

Posted by: cbenitah May 27 2006, 02:28 PM

Brad is playing hard to get of course...

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 04:09 PM

qwerrt we are drinking beer now..


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Posted by: swood May 27 2006, 04:11 PM

That's a great shot! I'm sure there are folks who have nightmares similar...but they're in the good Dr. Daves Dental chair!! (By the way, that's the tool they use on my teeth;) )

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 04:11 PM

Cutting the cage... relieve to strength.. Heineken..good

CRis.. send me the TXT message with her number


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Posted by: Grimstead May 27 2006, 04:16 PM

So that's what an Ass Dragger looks like...

Posted by: echocanyons May 27 2006, 04:19 PM

Good to see ya made it safely Brad.

Hey those doors look familiar.

Hope the pulls go well

Posted by: Britain Smith May 27 2006, 04:43 PM

Did you really have to cut the cage? Was the stress that bad? Are you going to be able to weld the cage back together or is it time for a new one?

-Britain

Posted by: mikez May 27 2006, 05:04 PM

The cage was welded into a bent tub....you can always reset the cage....

Posted by: PRS914-6 May 27 2006, 05:44 PM

Brad, If you guys are still working, I'm planning on stopping by on Sunday after a brief stop in Danville for the local PCA. What does Sunday look like?

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 27 2006, 06:19 PM

We will be here starting at 10am. I need some sleep.


B

Posted by: Jeroen May 27 2006, 06:59 PM

why are we TALKING about hot swedish chicks and LOOKING at pictures of a couple of ugly guys...

And what's with the blue doors?

Posted by: Britain Smith May 27 2006, 11:48 PM

Any updates?

-Britain

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 27 2006, 11:49 PM

Aaaahndy wanted to remove the doors, so they left 'em in Napa. Turns out they're very useful for telling how and where some of the chassis is bent, so B scraped up some other early doors for the tub.

Either that, or Aahndy wanted to try the "Captain America" look.


....So, did you guys ever start pulling the damn thing? When I had to leave, the only actual moving of parts of the chassis was some beating on the front suspension pickup point with a BFH...

--DD

Posted by: SirAndy May 27 2006, 11:55 PM

yes. just got home, we got all the pulling done on my red car, it's sitting all bolted down until tomorrow morning. we'll see if we did the job right when we unbolt the fixtures.
if the tub stays, we're done! if not, we have to do some more

this was a real learning experience for me!
i am not afraid of the mighty celette anymore ...

Andy

let's start with the end, this is how the car looked like when i left around 9:30pm ...




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Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:02 AM

some creative pulling ...

couldn't have done it without the experienced operator of the bench, thank you sir!


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Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:05 AM

McMark welding the front a-arm mounting plate back to the body ...



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Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:10 AM

cut rollcage ... it had to be cut apart completely ...
the cuts all came apart with a loud BANG, displacing the tubes up the 1/2" in places ...

guess there was some load on the cage after we started pulling the tub ...
Andy


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Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:11 AM

all one needs is the right tools ...




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Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:13 AM

jenny was helping out until the bitter end, you rule girrrrrl!!!

Andy




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Posted by: Joe Sharp May 28 2006, 12:14 AM

If you didn't cut the cage you'd have those gaps in the tube.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe

Posted by: jonwatts May 28 2006, 12:14 AM

Rafael is the shiznit, is he not? And the other guy, Jeff? He was great to talk to.

So how'd the fiberglass do?

Sorry I took off so quickly. I went to take Gwen and Moose home and got called home after that. I'm hoping to come back up tomorrow afternoon.

Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:16 AM

and here's a sneak preview of tomorrows project ...

unbending a 914-6 tub on the celette bench!

(we must be nuts )

Andy


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Posted by: jonwatts May 28 2006, 12:18 AM

Are you doing the six yourself or will rafael be back?

Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:20 AM

yeah, Rafael has done hundreds of those pulling sessions ... as i said, couldn't have done it without him!



fiberglass is holding up well so far, we got a lot of scary noises from the tub, but no major pieces that fell off ...

fingers crossed for tomorrow when we unbolt the fixtures ...
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy May 28 2006, 12:21 AM

he'll be there tomorrow and monday, thank good ...
Andy

Posted by: Andyrew May 28 2006, 12:22 AM

It looks good!!!!

Whats up with the shock? When did it blow?

That kinda explains that one video of "bouncing"

Andrew

Posted by: McMark May 28 2006, 01:35 AM

The shock blew directly in my face. It took me 20 seconds to figure out where the friggin' shower came from. I knew everything was unhooked, including the brake lines, then I saw the shock looking very odd and it all clicked. The shaft had completely dislodged and the chassis was holding it in place. So when I grabbed the wheel and started to pull it, out the shaft came out completely and I got hosed! This picture is exactly what I was looking at when it went off.



It was a great time. I learned a lot and it was great to have so many people show up to help out.

IIRC, there was Jon Watts, Pete Stout, Bill ________, Bill Pickering, Randal Barrick, Gwen Golub, Chung (not Daniel :wince), Dave Darling, Fiid, Jenny, Lyressa, Dave Hunt & Gerry, Andy and Me. Who did I forget.

Posted by: redshift May 28 2006, 01:46 AM

WOWSERS! ALL FUN!

(especially mark taking the shower... you could get used to it dood!!)




M

Posted by: DEC May 28 2006, 02:32 AM

Great job

Like it to see

Wilco

Posted by: davep May 28 2006, 06:15 AM

Did you start pulling before you cut the cage? That would explain the popping of the cuts.
What was the problem with the front suspension mount?
What other particular locations required significant pulls?

Glad to see the six tub is there for today's pulls. I'm really interested in the results on that one. Since the right rear ear is so badly rotted, I guess it cannot be used too much; makes me wonder if welding a new console in first would be best, or waiting until the chassis is straight to put it into place, or perhaps a combination. Best of luck with this old girl, she is in good hands.

Posted by: grantsfo May 28 2006, 09:30 AM

I bet the front wheel lift will be minimized once tub is tweaked and the bad shock is replaced.

Thing I'm curious to know more about is how badly was the car bent from stock specs and will the bending back to spec weaken the tub? I know from looking at the car a couple weeks ago it was visibly twisted.

Fun watching the progress!

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 12:15 PM

Back in the saddle. We are running about an hour late at this point!

The chassis appears to have "taken" to the pulls. It hasnt sprung back.

We will start some grinding and welding on the cage. The thought is to pull the chassis apart 2-3mm's and weld te cage back together. In theory this should help keeps things in place.

Good morning!


B

Posted by: Eric_Shea May 28 2006, 12:59 PM

Excellent thread.

Is the next tub the -6 that Kelly was going to cut up?

Posted by: echocanyons May 28 2006, 01:01 PM

Yup it is, I hope it can be saved

Posted by: shoguneagle May 28 2006, 01:09 PM

This is better than watching the Indy 500. Great Job!!! And we thought the people of 914 Club just know how to party!!!

Great information and how this is done. I would not want to do it. Leave it for the Pros such as>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!

Andy, glad it is finally done and you can continue your build. Brad, you still put in the long hours and driving to support 914 owners, many thanks!!! Scott Yeaman for use of his facilities; I know where my car will be painted -- Thanks!!! Thanks to all the members for working on and supporting Andy's project. Distance, time, money, etc does not seem to matter when the 914 Club becomes involved. Many Thanks!!!

What a Group!!!!!

Steve Hurt

Posted by: Aaron Cox May 28 2006, 01:36 PM

good luck on that sixer! i saw some of the creases in the bulkhead

Posted by: rhodyguy May 28 2006, 03:07 PM

if andy is the original purcaser, i think koni may fix or replace the rear shock. worth checking out.

k

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 06:01 PM

Making the final pulls. The rear trailing arm mounts where WAY out (shim stack)


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Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 06:05 PM

sdfg


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Posted by: davep May 28 2006, 06:57 PM

Okay, now lets see some pictures of the six on the Celette bench. Andy car was nothing but a warmup for the main event.

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 07:07 PM

Andy's red tub is/was tweaked in so many ways... it is crazy. The body guy's looked at the six tub and said: "easy".

Here is what I *think* happened with Andy's tub:

It was bent in a rear end collision

It was bent in a front end collision

Neither repair included "pulling" the tub

They replaced bumpers and installled the flairs with "insurance" money instead of paying to repair the tub properly.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 07:48 PM

Done!!

It is straight!

Starting to unbolt the fixtures after all the pulling..and NONE of the bolts are in bind. This means the tub was pulled into submission!!!

Now to take it off the bench and bench the 6 tub.. help...lol


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 07:49 PM

More pics to come! Later.. My camera died. Andy will upload later.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 09:53 PM

Very nice!

All the suspension now bolts up and it is not in BIND!!!

We assembled the rear without shims. I'm going to check camber with a SMART gauge and see if we have an equal number.


B

Posted by: Gint May 28 2006, 09:56 PM

Grats Andy! That's gotta feel great getting that finally done.

So, I probably missed it, but what's it cost to rent the Celette bench? And can you only do that in Claifornia? Are they available in other parts of the country?

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 10:04 PM

REALLY good news!!

Negative 2.5 on both!! rears with NO shims. This means the tub is zero.

Unless... both control arms bent the exact same amount. Chances of that are real slim.

It goes on the trailer in a few minutes. We will then put the six up on the bench and go home.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 28 2006, 10:08 PM

You will probably find a shop in your area with a Cellete bench.. but finding a place that rents the 914 fixtures might be close to impossible. Cellete has a office in Hayward (about 40min from here and they rent the fixtures... but you still have to have the bench) The bench is designed for european cars, so you would have to start with a body shop that specializes in the euro cars.. then they might have the bench. Then try and locate the fixtures!!

I knew from previous experience that we had access to the fixtures. I know of at least 10 914's in this area that have been on the bench. 4 of them (if not more) are race cars with their rear suspension points raised.


B

Posted by: Brando May 28 2006, 11:56 PM

I wonder if you could attach a 914 to the celette bench to weld in a cage... as assurance that the body doesnt twist, bend and warp when doing structural welds...

Posted by: SirAndy May 29 2006, 03:59 AM

actually, his exact word were "piece of cake" ...

we'll see ... we didn't get to the /6 yet, that'll be my monday ...

just dropped my car of in napa at McMarks, going to bed now ( ) then up early tomorrow morning to pick up chungs car and haul it down to scotts, then on to unbending the six ...

what a weekend ...
Andy

here's a teaser, off the celette ... (never mind the crooked cut rear valence )
*ALL* the suspension stuff bolted right on, *all* the mounting points/bolts were dead on!



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Posted by: redshift May 29 2006, 04:04 AM

Great job fellas! You must feel awesome Andy... it's better than just any old tub now, it's perfect!


M

Posted by: davep May 29 2006, 06:38 AM

That ought to be worth seconds a lap!

Posted by: TimT May 29 2006, 08:48 AM

thats the preferred way to do a cage install anyway

Posted by: jonwatts May 29 2006, 10:50 AM

The level of skill just blows me away. The celette makes it easier, but far from easy (to me at least, maybe Andy thinks he could do it by now). They said they don't even use the bench that much any more, they do floor pulls.

Posted by: McMark May 29 2006, 10:53 AM

Andy and Brad mentioned they could still use a hand or two today. I've got to work after taking two days off already.

Posted by: DNHunt May 29 2006, 06:08 PM

Gerry and I had a great time with you guys. As always the best part of the experience is the people. It would have been fun to have seen the tub pulled. Thanks to all of you for your hospitality.

Dave

Posted by: GTeener May 29 2006, 06:52 PM

The /6 did not get any work done on it. It did get put up on the bench and pushed into the shop but Brad had to get on the road home. Andy took some pictures.

GTeener got home under her own power today, though. Gotsta figure out these electrical gremlins before WCC So far she's a one way ride. I can get to any destination, I just can't leave

Anyone know an electical guru around here?

Posted by: chunger May 29 2006, 07:33 PM

Crap. . .

Are the shop guys going to make some pulls without Brad on Tues? Hope I didn't slow you guys down too much with the extra errand this morning.

-'Chung

Posted by: SirAndy May 29 2006, 07:44 PM

not quite true ...

i changed the bench setup to 914-6, several additional fixtures to put in place, then refael started with the pulling.


jeff keyzer and jon watts and wife showed up to lend a helping hand!

by the time i had to leave, refael had about 1 hour into the tub and he had the back already straight!

he said the front is going to be tricky, two, maybe three more afterhour sessions and it'll be done ...

fingers crossed ...
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy May 29 2006, 07:45 PM

rear pulled and straight ...



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Posted by: GTeener May 29 2006, 07:48 PM

Hooray for the cavalry!

Posted by: jonwatts May 29 2006, 07:50 PM

Once again I did nothing but stand there looking pretty, but it was great to see the /6 making progress.

Andy, do you have to pay for the fixtures to get back where they need to go or was that included in the delivery charge? If not I might be able to help out.

Posted by: SirAndy May 29 2006, 07:53 PM

should be covered ... you want to carry 1100lbs to fremont ?

Andy

Posted by: cbenitah May 29 2006, 08:11 PM

Is Mr Roberts still up there with y'all

Looking great guys!

Posted by: jonwatts May 29 2006, 08:21 PM

After looking at the crate the fixtures came in it looks like it might fit in my truck. I'm not volunteering if it's covered, just offering in case it isn't. $150 for delivery seemed like a lot, but not in the big scheme of things and not if it covers both ways.

Posted by: drewvw May 29 2006, 10:51 PM

awesome team work....fun thread to read. To the classics?

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 29 2006, 11:40 PM

Mr. Roberts is HOME! I left San Jose at 3pm and walked into my apartment at 10:15pm. I sat in over an hours worth of traffic. Not bad! The rest of it was ranat 80mph+. traffic was hauling ASS!.. with the trailer..LOL

Andy,

this is really good news about the 6 tub. I'm sorry I had to leave.. I know how long it takes to get home..

I had a blast


B

Posted by: Jenny May 30 2006, 12:36 AM

Hey, hey! You made it home. You didn't leave SJ until 3?? What kept you?

Jen

Posted by: Dave_Darling May 30 2006, 12:59 AM

Sorry I couldn't help more, but I had "obligations" for most of the weekend. My attorney wasn't so happy I spent most of Saturday over at the shop, actually, so I had to help make it up to her Sunday and today.

--DD

Posted by: Lawrence May 30 2006, 03:10 AM

Amazing... simply amazing.

I'm almost afraid to ask what a shop would charge for such a treatment.

-Rusty

Posted by: SirAndy May 30 2006, 10:08 AM

don't

Posted by: horizontally-opposed May 30 2006, 10:18 AM

Good times to hang and great to see the progress after I had to roll out. Rebekah couldn't believe how long I was there. It was a slice of heaven, served up two days before a perfect, long day on the coast in my 914...

Good to hang with Chung, Brad, Andy, Mark, Bill, Jenny, Randal, Bill, Laryssa (sp!), Jon, John, Dave, Rafael, Jerry, Fiid, and, and, and...

Just a cool project and cool people.

We should do stuff like this more often.

pete

Posted by: Jenny May 30 2006, 10:36 AM

I agree. It was an awesome weekend. I always enjoy hanging out with 914 peeps. It was nice to finally meet Pete , Bill, and to see Dave and Gerry again. And of course, it's great to see the usual suspects. You know who you are

Jen

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 30 2006, 11:22 AM

Jenny,

I stopped at Jason's to pick up all the Boxster engine pieces he had laid out for me. We didnt want to jam them into your 914, so I stopped and picked them up on my way out. I'm going to start development on the 986/987/996/997 engines for racing. Jason had a 2.7 engine apart and I needed the crank/rods/cams/pistons.

Pete,

It was fun talking/working with you. We have been holding these types of "gatherings" for years. I stopped counting the number of sawzall parties and the such we have held in the past. The club comes together all over the USA for these different events. This one was a little more in depth than most. I have found that people are hungry for information (you know this.. you are a supplier also).. so we invite people to "help" and learn.


B

Posted by: maf914 May 30 2006, 02:42 PM

Looks like you guys had an interesting weekend. It's good to see Andy's car get straightened out.

In the photos there are several chains that appear to be in tension. I assume this is part of the pulling process. Is it dangerous being in the same space while this is taking place? A chain failing would be pretty scary. When I am around boats or heavy equipment with lines or cables in tension, I'm always a bit wary.

Posted by: Jenny May 30 2006, 02:47 PM

Funny you should mention that. Saturday night while I was watching Rafael, Mark & Andy working, I was pretty close to the stretcher. McMark graciously put himself between me and the chains just in case of such an occurence. What a gentleman!

Jen

Posted by: chunger May 30 2006, 03:27 PM

This kind of 914 bondage doesn't come cheap

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 30 2006, 03:50 PM

As people walked up over the weekend, we would strategically "remove" them from the "path" of the chains when a pull was in progress. From what I have seen: chains break and make a loud noise, but they dont release and "fling" like a cable would if it broke.



B

Posted by: SirAndy May 30 2006, 04:33 PM

now what i'd really like to see is mueller stopping by scotts shop thursday after work and take exact measurements of all the fixtures ...

Andy

Posted by: Brad Roberts May 30 2006, 05:31 PM

Just what we need! Stronger jack stands!



B

Posted by: LvSteveH May 30 2006, 06:12 PM

I second the nomination of Mueller to measure the bench

Posted by: fiid May 30 2006, 07:04 PM

At this juncture - couldn't he just measure Andy's car?

Posted by: SirAndy May 30 2006, 07:42 PM

uhmm-uh, measure my car to what??? it's all in the reference point!

if he get's a exact measurement of the fixtures, we can replicate them. the idea is to get a exact measuremeant of height to a level ground (the bench) as well as location.

think 3-D, not 2-D ...
Andy

Posted by: jimtab May 30 2006, 08:46 PM

Jen, I don't want to spoil this for you but Mark is just into "chains" if you catch my drift....

Posted by: PRS914-6 May 30 2006, 09:12 PM

From a fabrication and accuracy point, It would be better to make the pieces while you had a straight body to use as "a fixture" For instance, duplicate one piece at a time while the others were still attached to the frame and the body. Otherwise you would almost need a "welding fixture" to accurately weld the pieces together. Very time consuming without a welding fixture.

Posted by: grasshopper May 30 2006, 09:28 PM

say my name bitch!

Posted by: Mueller May 30 2006, 11:07 PM

I don't see this as being an easy task at all...I "think" , we could get something "close" and better than nothing...

what we need is something from http://www.faro.com/products/FaroArm_Advantage.asp



got $40K I can borrow???

Posted by: jonwatts May 31 2006, 12:48 AM

Why do you think I keep offering to deliver the fixtures for you, so that they can accidentally get "lost"

Posted by: SirAndy May 31 2006, 09:54 AM

you could have told me ...
Andy

Posted by: Bleyseng May 31 2006, 03:52 PM

Yeah Baby, those digital template systems for a CNC are way cool. I want one for the V.Alberti CNC here in Suriname to make and copy stuff only they are $25k

I met a guy who will make one for $5000 in Las Vegas.....

Posted by: street legal go-kart May 31 2006, 05:15 PM

Guys,
We use digital templates in our industry all the time for the cnc stuff and the complete system cost about 4k.

JT

Posted by: Bleyseng May 31 2006, 05:19 PM

Give me a link.....

Posted by: street legal go-kart May 31 2006, 05:34 PM

Idon't know off hand if it will duplicate the .005 tolerance of the Faro, but do we need that to duplicate the Celite fixtures?
This looks like something we could "one off " with the water jet.
Do we have any decent pics of the fixtures in question?

JT

Posted by: street legal go-kart May 31 2006, 05:39 PM

Let me see if I can get my guy in the field as he has the system with him. I'll see if we have a manual in the shop.

JT

Posted by: kwales May 31 2006, 08:15 PM

Glad you are trying to measure the fixtures.

That 3-D CAD model will be handy.

Being a creative sort, I kept imagining simple fixtures that could be made to check key measurements out- picture a 3-D template...

Yup, probably could fab something quick outa tubing, plates, pins and stuff that could be used to check for accuracy.

A measurement fixture in other words. As per tolearances, it doesn't have to be in thousandths.

Stuff I designed over 8 feet long was +/- .25 of an inch- commercial tolerances.

Ken

Posted by: jonwatts May 31 2006, 08:53 PM

Wow, I must be smart, I was thinking the same thing.
- Bolt all the fixtures to the table
- Cut some small plates (with holes in the middle) to act as the body mount points
- Connect it all with some cheap square tube and enough slag to make it solid

But then I was wondering how useful it would be. You could bolt it up to check a tub but you'd have to pull it off and put it back on between adjustments or you risk changing your template.

Posted by: SirAndy May 31 2006, 09:16 PM

that's why the celette fixtures are so fucking heavy! 1100lbs just for the fixtures alone ...

they (the body shop) used them to pull the tub. just hook a chain around the fixture and pull ...
Andy

Posted by: davep May 31 2006, 09:24 PM

Does the shop own the Celette bench, and just rent the fixtures for the car at hand?

Can you give us the low down on how a pull is made. I assume that if the body is twisted, then the attachment points are not going to line up. So what then? Attach the fixture to the body point and pull it to the proper location on the bench? What if the point is rotten like a suspension ear?

Posted by: SirAndy May 31 2006, 09:51 PM

scotts owns the bench and rents the fixtures on a per day basis ... the celette center in hayward (fremont?) is probably the only one on the west coast that has the 914 specific fixtures ...

basic strategy:
put fixtures on bench, set tub on top. find the attachment point that is the closest to the factory spec and bolt that down to the bench/fixture.
start pulling/pushing the rest of the tub. if the attachment points are still good, you can fit the fixture to the body and use it for pulling. if not, you need to pull the body using other parts.

while all this sounds easy, it involves a *huge* amount of experience. you need to know where and how to push/pull to get the chassis to do what you want, sometimes you pull in two or more directions while simultaniously pushing somewhere else plus using a BFH to release tension or even reshape metal all at the same time ...

once you get *all* the fixtures to line up perfectly, you have to release them (unbolt) and make sure none of the fixtures moved away.
if they do, you need to do some more pulling.

you're done when all of the fixtures line up with the mounting points perfectly with the body *unbolted* so there's no stress on the tub ...

took only 2 days for my red car ...
Andy

Posted by: jonwatts May 31 2006, 11:41 PM

From watching I figured it's a lot like repairing a bent fender. You can't just start hitting it in the middle of the dent or you'll end up with a lot of stretched metal. You almost have to visualize what happened to the metal and then try to work backwards. Like Andy said it sounds easy but in practice it takes real skill, knowledge, experience.

For example, on Andy's red car one of the first bends was to push up on the passenger side long below the door. His car was wrecked (we think) in the front and rear. That's where the metal started to bend but it ended around the doors with some minor rubbing on the door jambs. So working backwards they started by straightening the long at the door. Doing this causes the long to flatten on the top side (take a paper towel tube and bend it slightly, before it folds it will flatten) so to compensate Rafael whacked the long (repeatedly) back into shape on the inside of the passenger compartment with a sledge. At the time I had no idea what he was doing because everything looked fine to me (the long didn't look flattened). But afterward it looked right as was evidenced by how well the fixtures lined up.

Sorry for going off or if I got any of the details wrong but it was really cool to witness.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 1 2006, 01:36 AM

Come on.. everyone can do this at home!!

I have learned (in old age) let the people who kickass at what they do... DO IT.

I'm glad Andy and I made some pulls of our own. You have to be able to "see" and think ahead of yourself.

I had a great time.


B

Posted by: davep Jun 1 2006, 05:34 AM

Thanks Andy & Jon. That was what my thoughts were also, but didn't have confidence it was correct. The BFH comes in handy so many times, I guess that is why I have so many of them.

I haven't seen much talk of the six, and the results of pulling it.

Posted by: LvSteveH Jun 1 2006, 10:06 AM

When I poured my shop slab I put in 8 pull points using grade 70 chain. My plan was to build a jig using a known straight car. That's probably the easiest way to do it for the small operator. I was not planning on pulling directly from the jig like on the Cellete bench, but rather to use it to measure/confirm after doing each pull. Obviously it would be slower, but I haven't seen a Cellete bench and 914 fixtures on ebay yet.

I have a funny feeling I have an appointment with a non-movable barrier once I get on the track.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 1 2006, 10:07 AM

still in the works ....

Andy

Posted by: davep Jun 1 2006, 10:18 AM

Having to work and not being able to play sucks, doesn't it.

Finding Celette benches and fixtures for sale is much easier when you get the correct spelling. I know of at least one bench for sale.

Posted by: fiid Jun 1 2006, 10:28 AM

Yeah - I got that. My point was - since the fiture bolts to the car and your car is now about as close as you can get to reference straight - he could measure the same pickup locations on your car as on the celette.... theoretically.

It was only semi serious... probably less than that

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 1 2006, 11:06 PM

[ I had to register just to comment on this whole thing. This was the first time Rafael has ever used the Celette Bench. It sits in storage on the adjacent property and hasn't been touched for three years. The last car to sit on the jig was a 912 getting the "torque tube" replaced. It was fun to watch "Rafa" think about how to do it, cuz I knew he didn't know. Don't get me wrong, that guy can fix anything. I've yet been able to overchallenge him, and I try everyday. I manage Yeaman Auto Body and see wrecks everyday. Point is, once Andy said that the door on the passenger side did not align, that the first clue of the problem. Obviously, the cage was another factor. The porta power was a key tool, along with the tower, block of wood and a big hammer. Relieve the pressure after each pull and it goes farther intoo place each time. That 914-6 at the shop now is a whole different picture. Better have the beer ready!!!!

Cheers,
Jeff

Posted by: Jenny Jun 1 2006, 11:13 PM

Hi Jeff ,

Jen

Posted by: jonwatts Jun 1 2006, 11:47 PM

Uh oh, now you did it. You just admitted you manage a reputable auto body shop. Get ready to be hammered with questions. In fact here comes the first one...

What's the best wax to use on my car?



Like her ladyship said and thanks for letting us hang out in the shop.

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 2 2006, 12:09 AM

[ Hi thxs. Actually you want to use a "clay"brick first to remove any contaminants, i.e. fallout, overspray, tree. then apply a polymer coating, which lasts for atleast 6 months. It takes 2 applications, and you have to be in the shade. I can get this stuff if you're interested.

Jeff

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 2 2006, 12:19 AM

you guys are running dry again? i'll swing by tomorrow and fill up the fridge!

rafael might not have used the celette in a while, but he sure knows how to pull/push those cars ...
i, for one, learned a thing or two over the weekend ...

thanks for the "heads up" ...
Andy

PS:

Posted by: richardL Jun 2 2006, 09:53 AM

Is there a limit to how far you can pull the body before the act of pulling weakens the metal? Or creases the body?

Is that just experience or is there some known limit?

Richard

Posted by: maf914 Jun 2 2006, 11:15 AM

Andy,

I assume the cage was cut to allow the chassis to be pulled independently, otherwise the cage would try to hold the chassis in its "bent" shape. Did this result in much misallignment of the cage members? What do you do with the cage now? Is it salvageable?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jun 2 2006, 11:21 AM

More info on the six. I wanna see that Phoenix rise from the ashes. She was almost cut up. Go Andy Go!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 2 2006, 11:30 AM

Andy and I are formulating a plan of attack for the restoration of that car back to original.

Which means.. you may not get those parts!! LOL


B

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jun 2 2006, 11:32 AM

Like that thought never crossed my mind...

Posted by: echocanyons Jun 2 2006, 02:30 PM

Are you going back to narrow body?

Posted by: McMark Jun 2 2006, 02:46 PM

No, wider body.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 2 2006, 03:02 PM

there might have been a change of plans ...

Andy

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 07:15 PM

Hey Andy, the cars' almost ready. Couple more pulls. Rafael wants to know if you're coming by this weekend?

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 08:08 PM

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 3 2006, 08:12 PM

whats the hole in the long for?

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 08:12 PM

[

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 08:13 PM

kink in the rocker.... only way to straighten through

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 08:14 PM

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 3 2006, 08:18 PM

Kinks all out here, but a new cowl piece should be patched on .

Posted by: echocanyons Jun 3 2006, 08:50 PM

nice work, it looks like it coming along nicely

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 3 2006, 10:13 PM

Very cool! You can check one of the pics earlier in the thread for just how badly twisted this chassis was... That head-on shot here really shows the difference. It's amazing what a knowledgeable guy with some talent and some tools can do!

Thanks for sharing, Jeff!

--DD

Posted by: LvSteveH Jun 3 2006, 10:19 PM

I think it's great that you are fixing the six.. very cool indeed. You can drive the crap out of it with a clear conscience knowing you saved it from the scrap bin.... it owes you its life!

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 3 2006, 10:41 PM

couldn't make it today, but if you guys are around, i'll swing by tomorrow and drop off some beer ...

excellent work!
Andy

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jun 4 2006, 09:42 AM

This has been a really interesting thread. It makes me wonder how badly my car is bent. Or how strait is might be. Is there any way you can tell if your car is misaligned or bent without useing this bench device? Is the bench used to check alignment or more to straiten out a car that is known to be bent? Andy, how did you discover that your car was bent in the first place?

Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 4 2006, 10:12 AM

i don't think one would drop their engine, transmission, steering rack, front suspension and rear suspension just to check alignement ...

see this thread for more info:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=50515&hl=bend

and here:
http://www.sirandy.com/projects/cars/tub.asp

and here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=50809&hl=bend

and finally here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=44700&hl=bend

Andy

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jun 4 2006, 01:47 PM

Elliot,

Have it aligned and corner balanced first. If you run into any issues with either of those you may have a tub issue.

Was it banged up in the past?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jun 4 2006, 01:50 PM

Andy, Brad, Jeff and Rafael... thanks for saving this -6

Love seeing these pics.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jun 4 2006, 04:09 PM

I don't think my car is bent, I was just curious how Andy discovered how bad his was bent in the first place. I can see by the pictures at the autox how bad his was. Thanks for the links Andy, I don't remember seeing them before. All that pulling into shape should make a world of difference when your done. You think it'll shave a few seconds off your time?

Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 4 2006, 04:53 PM

hey jeff, stopped by today (sunday) around 1pm (ish) ... waited for 1/2 hour but no one there ... so i left ... now i have to drink the two 12-packs of heineken all by myself ...

Andy

Posted by: MecGen Jun 4 2006, 05:05 PM

Wow

I had to jump in with a Thumbs up on the work !
Rafael is a tradesman, no doubt.

Later

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 4 2006, 06:57 PM

Yes. http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php?PHPSESSID=5c30f2983215ca7d3b04499c1f4aeb0d, and also http://www.914world.com/specs/underdims.php?PHPSESSID=5c30f2983215ca7d3b04499c1f4aeb0d.

--DD

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 5 2006, 01:04 AM

Hey guys, this car is ready for the finals, what ever that means!!! This has been an enjoyable time for us, as we work on cars all week long, but to know people enjoy it as much as we just "do it" because it's our job. Whatever the problem, we fix it. I have to admit I wish it was a 2005 GT3, but whatever. Andy, good luck in your endeavors.

Cheers,
Jeff C/O Yeaman Auto Body

Posted by: Tom Perso Jun 5 2006, 06:19 AM

Ok everyone... Group hug!!!

Nice work!

Tom

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 5 2006, 10:36 AM

Thank you Jeff.

I have not met another group of guy's that work as hard as the "Yeaman" guy's. It is truly amazing what these guy's can pull off "no pun intended". It is always a pleasure dealing with them. I have spent A LOT of time around these guy's and they actually care about the work they perform for customers. There is a reason why Yeaman Autobody has been around for 20+ years in the same location in Palo Alto right off of 101. Customer service! They have been recognized by the industry leading trade organizations time and time again for customer service and hard work.

I would like to personally thank Scott Yeaman. This business owner shares the same passion for the 914 that "our" club shares. I personally believe that he has straightened and repaired more 914's than any other body shop in the USA. He knows these cars. He is a very careing and giving person (almost to fault) He has never given up on me and actually has helped support me during rough times. I cant thank you enough Scott.

Keep up the good work. I will always recommend Penisula people to take their daily wrecked drivers to Yeaman!

Jeff, please make sure Scott reads some of this. I dont always get across to him how much I appreciate his help.


B

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 5 2006, 03:12 PM

Twice so far, and I am very happy with the outcome both times! Scotty will continue getting my business.

--DD

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 5 2006, 03:21 PM

me too!


thanks guys, now on to working out the logistics of the pickup ...
Andy

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 5 2006, 04:23 PM

Andy, give the shop a call and ask for Rafael, He has a little more to do and said tonight is the night.............

Jeff

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 5 2006, 11:07 PM

went by the shop tonight and helped for a couple of hours ... pass. long is almost back to perfect, a bit more and and and it'll be like new ...
the front is still off by about 1/2 cm, but rafael can't start pulling the front until the longs are straight.

front firewall came out nice, looks almost like new, all of the buckle got pulled out, just needs some massaging of the sheet metal ...

all in all, it looks very close!
Andy

Posted by: sixnotfour Jun 5 2006, 11:14 PM

Was your serial number plate intact ?
Impressive pull work.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 5 2006, 11:27 PM

yepp, right where it's supposed to be ...


Andy

Posted by: ThinAir914 Jun 6 2006, 12:23 AM

This has been an amazing and educational thread to read! Thanks so much for posting this stuff!

I always knew that you really needed a shop that knew 914s if you needed any body work done, but it's good to know some more details about what is involved.

We just got a tub to use as a new home for Mike's wrecked '73 and we noticed some shims on the right-rear suspension so I'm sure we're gonna need this kind of thing. From the look of what these guys do it would be worth trailering it to CA to get it done. I'm not sure we have anyone in Arizona that can handle it, but then I haven't really started looking yet.

Thanks!!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 6 2006, 10:30 AM

Andy's red tub was a great example of half ass work performed on a 914 in the past.

I have told many people this same thing:

If you see a 914 with fiberglass bumpers (and it is NOT a full blown race car) you are standing a 99% chance that car has been hit in the front and/or rear. *Some* 914 owners will use the insurance money to buy a new home sterio instead of having the car fixed correctly. It is sad, but this is the way it has been for years and years.

B

Posted by: JMDAZED Jun 9 2006, 02:29 PM

Posted by: jonwatts Jun 10 2006, 12:11 AM

Andy,

Any update on getting your 6 up to Napa? If you need Mueller's trailer give me some warning so I can at least drop off the ramps, or deliver the trailer back up to Yeaman's.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 10 2006, 12:14 AM

how about tomorrow?

now all i need is to bribe someone in hauling the /6 up to napa for me ...

any takers? i'll pay for gas and beer and dinner and ...
Andy

Posted by: Mueller Jun 10 2006, 12:22 AM

if you find someone to take the car up there to Napa, let me know when, I'm guessing Mark does not want the trailer to stay up there and I could meet whoever takes it up there on thier way back to San Jose or fremont should they be going near or past that area

Posted by: jonwatts Jun 10 2006, 12:29 AM

I'd probably do it for gas and a bite to eat but I'm pretty busy this weekend. How long does the round trip take? Maybe some evening next week?

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 10 2006, 12:33 AM

about 3 hours roundtrip from scotts place. rafael said the car would be ready tomorrow ... i'm sure it could sit outside for a day or two ...

Andy

Posted by: degreeoff Mar 30 2008, 08:48 PM

Sorry had to bump this one as it is a helluva read, you and your ride have been through alot of stuff! Thats the shit!

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 30 2008, 09:50 PM

yeah, no kidding ...
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 23 2009, 04:15 PM

Just had a conversation about celette benches and bent tubs so i thought i give this 3 year old thread a so the newbies can enjoy some rather disturbing images ...

Andy

Posted by: timothy_nd28 Sep 30 2017, 01:13 PM

8 yr

Posted by: 76-914 Sep 30 2017, 09:54 PM

Glad you bumped this thread. I'd never seen it even though I had joined 6 mo's before the previous bump. My head was probably spinning just figuring out my dinky fuel problem.

Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 4 2017, 11:52 AM

Man, this made me happy/sad. Its good to see so many old friends and familiar faces. I miss the lot of you. Sad to see that some of the names on here have passed on too soon

Posted by: timothy_nd28 Oct 4 2017, 01:07 PM

There is some good stuff in here. I'm preparing to sawzaw my longitudinal in a attempt to untwist my tub.

Posted by: Perry Kiehl Oct 4 2017, 08:15 PM

I was told that Celette scrapped the 914 fixtures. I hope what really happened is they got saved by someone and are still out there. My bench will accept the 914 fixtures.

Posted by: McMark Oct 5 2017, 06:32 AM

I've talked to multiple employees at Celette and everyone has said that the fixtures are gone. So unless they're stuck in a corner of the warehouse and some forklift operator knows where, they're gone.

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 5 2017, 07:01 AM

Me Too. As far as I can tell they are gone.

Posted by: SirAndy Oct 5 2017, 11:09 AM

I knew we should have mode a copy of them last time we rented them ...

Posted by: Rand Oct 5 2017, 11:13 AM

*Someone* has to have a set. They didn't vaporize. Hopefully they will surface so copies can be made. Certainly they could be reverse engineered though. Someone made the first set.

Posted by: mepstein Oct 5 2017, 11:48 AM

I would think the front fixtures were similar to a 911 so if that's true, there's just a couple needed for the back.

Posted by: altitude411 Oct 5 2017, 11:51 AM

That sucks... I know you have a huge investment in fixtures.


Yes, they could be made with existing photos and today's CAD technology. Cost prohibitive? Absolutely...

Posted by: 914_teener Oct 5 2017, 12:21 PM

I have access to the CAD technology.....


Time is another thing.

What about Resto Design.

Posted by: gcrotvik Oct 5 2017, 01:18 PM

I know someone with a Celette bench. I will email him to see if he has the 914 fixtures. I (think) he told me he does have them, in a round about sort of way. He said my 74 was straight and that I saved thousands not having to put it on the bench. That statement somewhat indicates he has them. If he does, will he part with them, even temporarily? Who knows.

I just sent him an email. Let's see what he says...

Posted by: JRust Oct 5 2017, 03:03 PM

That is a cruel tease Geoff

Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 5 2017, 04:45 PM

McMark has the new design towers.

I was on the RD site and see they are selling the top fixtures for the new design towers for the 911.

http://www.restoration-design.com/store/product/911FIXTURE

These will fit the front of half of the 914.

Posted by: DM_2000 Oct 5 2017, 06:28 PM

But build prints are bound to exist somewhere. . . When Celette rents fixtures, they check them for bends post rental so even that limited data would be helpful.

Celette has been in and out of bankruptcy ( 2008 ) and most recently the owners involved in some sort of business manipulation. https://www.bodyshopnews.net/index.php/article-archive/item/117-celette-in-bankruptcy-again So it's likely that lots of other fixtures were scrapped as well.

However, Celette is a french company so there are bound to be fixtures in Europe somewhere.

In the USA

Rentals

Company : RELIABLE AUTOMOTIVE EQUIPMENT, INC.
Email : dave@rae1.com
Address :
58 LEONARDVILLE
BELFORD NJ 07718
Phone : 732-495-7900
Website : www.raeservice.com


Company : CELETTE North America
Email : contactus@celette-na.com
Address :
1142 North Main Street
LOMBARD IL 60148
Phone : 16303966100
Website : www.celette.com



Company : EUROCAR BENCH SYSTEMS
Email : frontoffice@eurocarbenchsystems.com
Address :
Caryl Ramos (800) 692 3900,
13710 Carmenita Road
SANTA FE SPRINGS CA 90670
Phone : 001 800 692 39 00

http://www.celettefixtures.net/rentalbank.html







Others are remaking 911 fixtures so this isn't that difficult. If someone has access to a Faro arm or even carefully measures a "straight" tub they could be remade. The problem is the tubs are not built that consistent, I've seen 911 fixtures with slots on the mounting bases to allow for adjustment.

Those are " MZ " towers and very easy to replicate, the tops vary from model to model. There are dedicated fixtures that don't use the interchangeable tops, these are pictured at the top of this thread.

The bench in the beginning of this thread is a " MUF 7 " ( Not " Sevenne " )

Production body shop guys don't like these benches as they are a pain to set up and insurance companies unwilling to pay for fixture rental. Few shops buy fixtures outright as circa 1995 they were $ 5,000 a set per model. With modern measuring devices fixtures are less valuable.

Also, circa 1990, Blackhawk designed a system similar to Celette either by license or by copy. There is a small chance there is a 914 in Blackhawk world though I'd suspect Blackhawk won't be of much help given they both ended up in court. http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/975/868/163485

Check E bay, there are a few 911 fixture sets / benches and a Blackhawk bench with basic fixtures for $ 2,500 right now. One seller matias1963 has absolutely insane prices, he is wanting $ 2,500 for a Celete wall mounted _peg board_ without any tools and $ 900 for a rolling pegboard.

Posted by: Mikey914 Oct 6 2017, 06:42 AM

I believe Cary has a set, and he's making use of them.
Mark

Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 22 2020, 01:37 PM

It's been a while since i was on here, but since we had to dig out the Celette bench, why not? Here's our next repair.

Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 22 2020, 01:38 PM

Insurance says go for it. Yikes!


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Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 22 2020, 01:40 PM

We have some updated fixtures to set up here. Everything is still super heavy though.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 22 2020, 01:41 PM

Donor car from HPH in Redwood City just got towed in.


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Posted by: 76-914 Dec 22 2020, 03:12 PM

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 22 2020, 04:28 PM

Wow- that looks like a very clean, straight and rust free front end.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 22 2020, 06:04 PM

It is a rustout?

Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 23 2020, 11:34 AM

The battery was not kind to the donor car. Engine bay totally rotted out.

Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 23 2020, 11:39 AM

Decided to do a rough pull on the Chart bench first then transfer to the Celette.


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Posted by: Andyrew Dec 23 2020, 11:31 PM

What would it cost to straighten a twisted chassis on the cellete?

Im really curious how this turns out

Posted by: mbseto Dec 24 2020, 12:19 AM

So I'll just put this out there... I've done some reverse engineering of various mechanisms on a professional basis and currently work for the company that makes NX cad software. If someone has a set of fixtures that can be copied and having a set of engineering drawings is the only thing standing in the way of making these available to the community, it's my briar patch.

Posted by: 930cabman Dec 24 2020, 05:56 AM

It's only numbers, what could be standing in the way?

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 24 2020, 07:47 AM

Or just let us know the hours for this repair. I'm guessing 40 hours just for the bench and metal repairs, then plus finishing and paint.

Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 24 2020, 11:08 AM

Rough pulls should be close today. Then again, I want to close early today and go home.


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Posted by: 930cabman Dec 24 2020, 11:36 AM

Indeed, Christmas only comes once a year. Enjoy the kids, have a safe and Merry Christmas with your family.

Posted by: JMDAZED Dec 24 2020, 11:52 AM

Merry Christmas!

Posted by: Luke M Dec 27 2020, 02:46 PM

This is how I found my set of fixtures. A guy in CA bought out a shops fixtures that had been sitting around. He wanted the 911 fixtures but the owner was selling a package deal or none. He purchased all of the fixtures and sold off what he did not need or want. I made an offer on the 914 Celette set and a few months later I had them in my garage. I've yet to attach them to my bench which I purchased from Perry. Once I wrap up a few projects here I'll get them mounted on the bench.



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Posted by: mepstein Dec 27 2020, 03:28 PM

Someone has to scan them one day.

Posted by: Luke M Dec 30 2020, 06:59 AM

Hi JMDAZED, hey could you do me a favor and please measure a few things on your Celette bench ?

I attempted to mount the Celette 914 fixtures to my Black Hawk bench but the fixtures do not line up. No matter what I try they will not mount to my bench. Even with the Black Hawk cross beams nothing lines up. So looks like I will need to make some type of adapters to mate the two together. If you could let me know the width of your bench, outer mount hole to outer mount hole (center to center), there's also a large flat plate at the front of your bench. Is that part of the bench or is it removable ?
Also there's a few cross beams that may have mounting holes in them.
Pictures of your bench would be helpful too. I'm gonna try again to search online but came up empty when I did a quick search last night.

I know many have said that the Celette fixtures should mount to the Black Hawk bench but so far that doesn't seam possible with what I have. Does anyone know if there was some special plates that may have been used to adapt the two?

TIA,

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 30 2020, 07:35 AM

Sent you a pm Luke.

Posted by: pencap914 Jan 4 2021, 12:46 AM

So does this mean there's a shop in Palo Alto that has a Cellete bench with 914 fixtures?
My tub is still a bit tweaked from the installation of the inner long stiffening kit, and I don't necessarily trust my skills at un-tweaking a tub in my garage... I too am curious to know how many shop hours this typically takes.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 4 2021, 07:47 AM

Unfortunately, no. The car was on a bench 15 years ago.

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 4 2021, 10:48 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10825

Mine was, but the new posts clearly show another 914 on their bench right now.

Posted by: mepstein Jan 4 2021, 12:22 PM

Right on the bench but I'm not sure there are (914 celette) fixtures for it.

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 4 2021, 12:28 PM

I was out last week, but Scott Yeaman borrowed a set of newer style fixtures from a shop in Oakland.

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 4 2021, 12:30 PM

Some progress photos while I was gone. The repair car is still not benched on the Celette.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 4 2021, 12:30 PM

More progress.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 4 2021, 12:31 PM

The donor car has donated.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 4 2021, 12:33 PM

Hi Andy, I haven't been on this forum for years and decided to post some fresh photos. Not to hi jack your thread. Cheers!

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 4 2021, 12:36 PM

No worries, it's all good. Glad to see another 914 saved!

Posted by: Luke M Jan 4 2021, 02:00 PM

Hi Andy,

Do you mind if I add this info here as well?

May as well keep this thread alive with the bench and fixtures info for future references.

I purchased a set of Celette 914 fixtures from a guy in CA and the BlackHawk bench from Perry. All now in Western New York.
I mainly purchased these to fix my factory 6 and my brothers 74 914 which needed a lot of metal work.

The word was that the Celette fixtures could be a bolt-on to the BlackHawk bench.
There was even a law suite between the two about this. The issue that I just came across is that my bench and fixtures do not mate. The bench is way wider then the Celette fixtures. I even tried fitting the BlackHawk cross beams to the fixtures and still it's a no go. I looked into this over the weekend and found several differences between the two benches. I could make the Blackhawk bench work with the Celette fixtures but it's gonna take some time. I would need to add a few cross beams, a front flat plate, and drill some new holes into the I-beams. That's one way. The other way would be to make all new cross beams to fit between the bench and fixtures. I'm not sure which way to go yet but either way it needs to be flat when done.

Does anyone know for sure if the Celette fixtures where a direct bolt-on to a BlackHawk bench? Or was there some in between fixtures that allowed that to happen? This info seams hard to find and verify.

Posted by: Andyrew Jan 4 2021, 02:49 PM

Boy this reminds me too much of what Dad did to the white car...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8lCEtW8Ytl7n8S4LCr9P5c7uWT_AZHPR

Im really curious now what the PROS will do differently.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 5 2021, 12:01 PM

I was always under the impression the worked also. I wonder if you need the Celette cross beams too. That may be the issue. Shoot a couple photos of the deck on your bench. Do you have any threaded holes?

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 5 2021, 12:19 PM

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 5 2021, 05:42 PM

Like a puzzle.


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Posted by: Luke M Jan 6 2021, 08:04 AM

I thought that I may need the Celette cross beams too but didn't want to spend more money if they wouldn't work. That's why I'm asking for someone that may have a set for measurements to confirm the fitment. If it is what I need that so be it but need to make sure that's the case. There's not much info out there that really clarifies that issue. The BlackHawk bench has no threaded holes but just drilled holes all the way down both sides of the I-beams. One big thing that I noticed is that the Celette bench has a large flat piece towards the front of their bench. The BlackHawk bench does not have this piece which is needed to mount the two front A-arm mounts and the Celette cross beam which holds the fixtures for the strut/cross member fixtures.
I'll post a few pics of what I mean soon.



I believe these are the cross beams that I may need. I still need to verify that.


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Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 6 2021, 09:34 AM

See the countersunk holes. Those are the holes used to bolt the crossmembers to the bench. I can't find my metric tape. It is still packed from the move. But check to see if you have holes in your bench that measure 33 3/8 center to center. There are other holes fro mounting the cross members but these are commonly used.

Posted by: Luke M Jan 6 2021, 12:40 PM

Rick,

I got 33 3/4'' center to center on the side to side. Down each I-beam is holes 1/2'' in diameter that are 4'' apart. I don't think the Celette adapter plates will work either as the have the same 4'' x 4'' spacing as the BlackHawk units. So not sure what to use.

I believe that the Celette cross beams I posted a pic of is for the newer style Celette bases and not the Celette fixtures that I have. The fixtures that I have would mount right to the bench like the pic that Andy posted. I may have to just modify my bench to mount these fixtures.

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 7 2021, 12:05 PM

update


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 7 2021, 12:06 PM

the front is lined up where it should be.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 7 2021, 12:08 PM

Lots of welding the next couple days.


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Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 7 2021, 12:12 PM

McMark made his own Cellett 914 fixtures I think...

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 7 2021, 12:14 PM

Very nice progress. I love to see these go back together when you know it is being done correctly.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 8 2021, 07:28 AM

Are these fixtures available to rent from someone?

Clay

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 8 2021, 10:08 AM

Clay,
Ask @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=419 . He will know the history. I think many sets of 914 fixtures were destroyed. He was making his own last I heard.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 8 2021, 12:54 PM

I don't want to by them, I want to rent a set to use for fixing Betty's car. I am willing to pay a rental fee and shipping both ways for them.

Clay

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 8 2021, 05:30 PM

Everything lines up. It's getting welded up as I type this.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 8 2021, 05:32 PM

Scott Yeaman borrowed the green tipped fixtures from a shop in Oakland. Scott owns the bench and the rest of the pieces and they are in Palo Alto.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 8 2021, 06:03 PM

So you work at Yeamans shop? Does he still have his /6 with the 3.0? Always a fun car to drive. I have not seen Scott in years since he repaired my '91 964.

Posted by: Luke M Jan 9 2021, 06:53 AM

I looked into the Celette cross beams and it seams that the ones I posted are for the MZ tower system. That does me no good as my fixtures are the older more robust style. The fixture that I have need to be mounted on the Bench and not the cross beams like the MZ system. I spoke to someone about the Celette cross braces and they will not work for me. Looks like a custom set of cross braces need to be made to mate the fixtures to the bench. I'm now wondering if there was a set of cross braces that worked for mounting the Celette fixtures to the BlackHawk. So, after going back n forth on how to resolve this I decided to make some custom cross braces to mount the fixtures. The other option was buying a 1/2 '' flat sheet of steel and have all custom holes cut to mate the two. For ease of install and cost I went with the custom braces. My brother and I started mounting the fixtures on Friday and lowered the car onto the bench. It looks like this will work out just fine. Now to spend the next few days measuring, cutting, aligning, drilling, and welding the new cross beams. Some pics of what it looks like now. I'll post pics of the final product when done.


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Posted by: mate914 Jan 9 2021, 07:44 AM

Looks good so far... I'm a fan.
Matt

Posted by: Luke M Jan 9 2021, 07:55 PM

Spent the day getting the rear half mounted and setup on the car. Looks pretty good.
I ran out of mounting hardware so off to the home depot or Ace on Sunday.
Got the cross beams for the front end figured out so just need to drill, weld, and bolt down. That's another days project but slowly getting there.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 12 2021, 11:43 AM

That looks like it works well!

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 12 2021, 11:44 AM

He still has his 6. It's all repainted and he needs to put it all together.

Posted by: JMDAZED Jan 12 2021, 11:50 AM

Fenders are being welded on now.


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Posted by: 930cabman Jan 12 2021, 06:47 PM

Dumb question: Lets suppose our rusted out 914 is secured to a frame bench and all the new parts/pieces/assemblies are welded in place with little regard to heat induced distortion. The chassis is removed from the frame bench, will any built up stresses from much welding create stress cracks or will the "straightened chassis" move from internal stresses?

thanks

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 14 2021, 04:42 AM

No questions are dumb if you do not have experience with the subject. You would still take precautions while welding. You can build in distortion even while on fixtures. The less likely method is the pinch or spot welder. Same thing with mig spot welding. You would still use common sense. Specially on the upper body where you may not have the best bracing.

Posted by: Arno914 Jan 14 2021, 05:27 AM

Great work, Luke!

As far as I know, you need the "old" Celette to use the "old" fixtures. Blackhawk and Celette don´t mix.
I have the fixtures for the 914, together with the Celette "MUF 5" bench. The fixtures bolt directly on the bench.
Maybe the plan is of some interest?

Cheers, Arno



https://up.picr.de/40319595rd.pdf

Posted by: Luke M Jan 14 2021, 08:23 AM

Hi Arno,

Thanks for the info. What I didn't know was if there were cross beams that mated the two together. I figured out a fix and currently working on that now. I have everything pretty squared away and ready to weld up. I'll be able to use these fixtures on my BlackHawk or a Celette bench.

Posted by: JMDAZED Feb 8 2021, 03:32 PM

Haven't been on here for a couple weeks. We have seam sealed and caulked the front nose and jambing color so we can put front suspension back in.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Feb 8 2021, 03:33 PM

Looking like a 914 again.


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Feb 8 2021, 04:13 PM

Outstanding!

Posted by: JMDAZED Feb 9 2021, 03:29 PM

Front steering and suspension going in.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Feb 9 2021, 03:30 PM

gas tank is next. This car will be rolling soon.


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Posted by: PotterPorsche Feb 9 2021, 09:19 PM

What the shop in Palo Alto . I’m impressed with the work , and tha ability to save another 914

Posted by: JMDAZED Mar 9 2021, 02:30 PM

Hi Yeaman Auto Body in Palo Alto

Posted by: JMDAZED Mar 9 2021, 03:58 PM

Shell and doors got painted today


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Posted by: JMDAZED Mar 9 2021, 03:58 PM

Super straight and shiny.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Mar 9 2021, 03:59 PM

Now the careful task of reassembly.


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Posted by: flyer86d Mar 9 2021, 07:44 PM

Very nice!

Charlie

Posted by: JMDAZED Mar 22 2021, 04:02 PM

Almost ready to go back home


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Posted by: JMDAZED Mar 22 2021, 04:03 PM

Installing bumpers today.


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Posted by: rjames Mar 22 2021, 04:10 PM

LOVE IT!!

Posted by: JMDAZED Apr 22 2021, 04:56 PM

Car has been completed.


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Posted by: JMDAZED Apr 22 2021, 04:56 PM

rt side


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Posted by: gereed75 Apr 22 2021, 07:49 PM

yeoow so thats what they look like when done! really nice

Posted by: bkrantz Apr 22 2021, 07:55 PM

Congrats! Looks great.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Apr 23 2021, 06:57 AM

That came out very nice. We would all love to see additional pictures I am sure.