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Posted by: 72914S Jun 16 2006, 08:22 AM

Having both brands on hand.Which rear shocks would be best for road and some track use. I have 140# springs.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 09:18 AM

Both work really well!

The value to the Koni's: they are adjustable. You wont be able to run your springs with them however.

The Bilsteins are pretty agressive on the valving and work really well with your current springs.

B

Posted by: elwood-914 Jun 16 2006, 09:23 AM

Brad, why won't you be able to run the springs he has with the Koni's? I eventually need to do the shock and spring thing, just wondering.

Tim

Posted by: Midtowner Jun 16 2006, 09:23 AM

I've got 140's too. So, what springs work best with Koni's for sport/occaisional A/X driving? Thanks.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jun 16 2006, 09:24 AM

because the perch doesnt go low enough to get you out of baja mode...

you need threaded perched to drop the ride height

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 09:45 AM

**Somebody** needs to contact Koni (Jeroen/Timo) and let them know the perch they weld on is set too high (even for lowered springs) I honestly believe they welded the perch on based from a worn out set of stock springs.

Bilsteins have a 5 way adjustable "clip" that sets the ride heigth.


B

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jun 16 2006, 10:23 AM

Well this is strange.

I'm running 140-lb springs (lowering, Weltmeister, I believe...) on normal Koni reds. And I've swapped in two different sets of Konis over the years. All of 'em work. Is it the springs?

Whatever, the car sits right down and works well. Well...

pete




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Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jun 16 2006, 12:55 PM

Buurr-rad, please explain. Inquiring mind(s) want to know...

pete

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 01:01 PM

Umm.. Nobody sells Koni REDS!!

I'm referencing the Koni yellows.

They stopped selling the Koni Reds some time back (as far as I know)

The Reds came with a plastic spacer that I used to trim to get the corner weights correct without threaded perches.


B

Posted by: ottox914 Jun 16 2006, 01:02 PM

I've had both on my car, and here's my take. The Bil's are a great compromise. That being said, they are a COMPROMISE. When I thought I'd use the car to putt putt around on sunny days, hit the Dairy Queen, enter a few car shows, and try that auto cross thing, the Bil's were great. Once I was bitten by the auto x bug, I switched to the Koni's, sold the Bil's and have never looked back.

Bottom line: if you are serious enough about auto cross or time trials or other track activities, go with the Koni's, as you'll probably end up serious enough to want to learn how to adjust them to your best advantage. If auto x or track stuff is barely hitting your radar, the Bil's would be better all around, just install and enjoy shocks/inserts.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 01:06 PM

Daily drivers where cup holders rule your world = Boge stock replacement


B

Posted by: thesey914 Jun 16 2006, 01:14 PM

when i swapped my boge stock shocks for koni adj the ride hight went up 1/2 inch to 1inch....reckon when i put the six in it'll sit nicely.

Posted by: Bruce Allert Jun 16 2006, 01:17 PM

I had the Bils with 100# springs. The adjustable perches were Great! The Bils were wonderful although my wife complained it was too stiff for her... (but what does she know, eh?)

.....b

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jun 16 2006, 01:18 PM

These are not Koni sports that Barry has.
He is talking about the Really old adjustable only once you pull the spring and completely compress the rod and turn to adjust.

Shocks seems to be in good shape and not sure what his ride hieght ends up being.


My take on cars is figure out what you want to do with it. make no compromise
either track it, Autocross it or keep it on the street with a set up that won't jiggle the coffee out your cup. (like we got cup holders)

The Koni's that Barry has at least have the ability to crank up the reboud stiffness for the 2 or 3 AX events he attends yearly.

Bilstiens are stiffly valved and can beat you up a bit but defnately keep the rubber on the road.

So the poison I picked in 200# rear coilovers and Koni reds that are externally adjustable. Hey they still work. But plan on going to QA-1 shocks soon. 21mm t bars Koni sports up front.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 01:24 PM

Be careful with the QA1's. Remember this: they came from the dirt track world not the road car world.


B

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jun 16 2006, 01:46 PM

Well, alrighty then!

I think you mean nobody sells them NEW.

I just picked up a set of VERY nice used (from the looks of it, barely) Koni reds at EASY. Before I put them in, where would you set them for street/occasional autoX use, oh great Brad-holio?

For reference, 911"M" front suspension with stock torsion bars, 22-mm Weltmeister anti-roll bar up front (no rear bar) and YES there is understeer in my setup...a rear bar may be in my future...




As for the great Bilstein debate, I only had limited experience until one of them failed at high speed, bottom attachment point just shearing off nicely.

Took em back, shop said they'd seen it before with Bilsteins and put me on (used) Koni reds, which I have been happy with ever since -- though I think I am going to have my first pair rebuilt and put them on a shelf...shelf life issues?

Since then, however, I've never heard anyone else talk about shearing Bils and a lot of people (me included) like 'em in 911s and 914s.

pete

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 01:50 PM

Set them on stiff (rear)

Correct: NO NEW KONI Reds!

Absolutely get them rebuilt. Have them step up the rebound valving and the bump side a tad from stock.

Shelf life: shouldnt be an issue.


B

Posted by: spunone Jun 16 2006, 01:53 PM

So I guess my koni adjustables are no bueno with the 140# springs I just bought great another extra part

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jun 16 2006, 01:57 PM

Koni yellow adjustables, 21mm torsion bars, stock sway bar up front for adjustablility at AX and TT.
Bil sports set at the 2nd from bottom perch, 180# springs no rear sway bar.
here is how the car corners at speed

so depending on what you want to do either will work or in combination.
If I go to Konis on the rear I will go to 200# springs with threaded collar to set ride height were it belongs.....in the weeds as it is now.


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Posted by: Mueller Jun 16 2006, 02:17 PM

...the Koni Yellows "will" work with the 140# springs, the problem that Brad mentioned is the height issue, not a compatibilty issue. see my thread on making Boge shocks "adjustable" ride-height wise: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=33544&hl=coil-over

in the picture below, the top shock has the perch in an elevated position, from Brads post, it appears that the Koni Yellows have the perch even higher, so that the rear of the car will ride too high. By lowering the perch you can have the rear of the car at a more normal height.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Jun 16 2006, 03:07 PM

I *think* TIG welding would be ok on a shock body that is filled. I would probably stay away from MIG however.

Bottom line: The Yellow Koni needs to have the perch moved down or you need to use a threaded collar setup and a shorter spring (which is what I use)

The shorter spring responds quicker (side benefit of running them)


B

Posted by: 72914S Jun 16 2006, 04:27 PM

The reason for asking was after talking to the Bilstien service center, they told me they could rebuild my shocks and make them Sports and add more grooves to raise the spring perch. $65.00 EA. for the rebuild and $10.00 for each groove.Really just wanted opinions on the ride differance between the Bilstien Sports and the adjustable Red Koni`s.

Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 16 2006, 04:35 PM

I have Bilstein's on the rear and 100 or 110lb springs (I forget) and I have a very harsh ride. I am tempted to put in 140lb springs just to see if it would actually get better with more spring.

Posted by: smdubovsky Jun 16 2006, 04:43 PM

*DONT* weld on a gas shock. Its would be no different than welding on a compressed air tank (it will explode unless your REAL fast and lucky).

Brad, I'll also argue w/ the shorter spring = faster acting statement;) There is no truth to it. Just like hollow torsion bars are faster. Both BS.

SMD

Posted by: Dr. Roger Jun 17 2006, 02:05 AM

shorter springs are lighter but with less useful range. but we ain't exactly 4 wheelin' here... =-)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jun 17 2006, 10:46 AM

when you shorten (cut) a spring you also effectively increase the spring rate.
so now what spring rate do you really have?