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Posted by: bondo Jul 11 2006, 07:04 PM

My dad has a kitcar that came without a starter. It has some sort of 911 engine and transmission. A 911 starter from Kragen and a high torque starter off ebay both just spin without engaging the ring gear. The ring gear is much closer to the starter opening than it should be for the high torque starter. (if the starter gear were large enough to engage the ring gear, it would be fully engaged when off)

What's going on?

Here are the pics:

edit: number cast into drivers side engine case underneath is: 901.101.101.2R

164398 is stamped into bottom of trans. The number in the last pic is on the side of the trans.


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Posted by: bondo Jul 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Nobody has any ideas?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 11 2006, 08:25 PM

Sounds a lot like you have the solenoid wired up incorrectly...

--DD

Posted by: bondo Jul 11 2006, 08:30 PM

It's not that.. the gear pops out from the starter as it should... The problem is that the gear is not large enough in diameter to engage the ring gear. And if it was it would always be engaged because the ring gear is too close to the starter opening, or because the starter nose is too long. The only thing I can think of is wrong starter, or wrong flywheel.

Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 11 2006, 08:34 PM

Wrong flywheel for the tranny you are using? I bet you need one that works with the VW tranny you are trying ot run. Switch to a 901 maybe? What engine is it?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 11 2006, 10:00 PM

that looks like a 4 speed 901....

Posted by: "Z" Jul 11 2006, 10:13 PM

I have an SR68X you can try.....911 starter.

Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 11 2006, 10:16 PM

measure a 2 inch long run of teeth , if it has 7 teeth its a really early 911 flywheel , if it has 8 its the same as all 914/ 911.

7 teeth its a really early,tooth count same as 356, maybe same as VW.

Posted by: bondo Jul 12 2006, 01:17 PM

He was told by the PO that it was a 2.2, but who knows.

The transmission is a 901, and it appears to be a 5 speed. The linkage is more than a little messed up, so it's hard to tell.

Here is a pic of the flywheel with my calipers set to 2.000"... looks like 7 teeth to me. The reason the flywheel teeth are a little chewed is because some yahoo that was helping my dad previously was just using the stud and nut to hold the starter on and was using a crowbar to pivot the starter towards the flywheel. (bad idea) With the starter properly mounted, the starter gear makes no contact with the ring gear. The FLAPS starter (for a 70 911) had the same problem.





Here is a pic showing the depth problem. The starter gear in it's un-energized state sticks in too far. (the caliper is set to the depth where the ring gear begins)



So it's beginning to look like he needs a "really early" 911 starter.. any idea how early? Is that SR68X starter really early? Does anyone have a really early 911 starter that they could check the depth measurement on?

Thanks for the help!

Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 12 2006, 01:29 PM

Royce, check to see if the bus starter with the pole sticking out of it would work It is the one that they always try to sell you at Kragen when you ask for a 914 starter.

Do you think you may be missing a spacer adaptor for the starter?

Posted by: SLITS Jul 12 2006, 01:40 PM

'60 - '65 356 ..... Bosch SR12X or Lester 16319

The one you have (Bosch SR17X / Lester 16300) and the one Zits (Bosch SR68X / Lester 16426) offered are essentially the same except for HP rating.

The VW one that they say fits the 914 (but it won't) is an SR15X / Lester 16446.

The SR12X and SR15X have very similar noses (This is the style that the good Dr. Evil is talking about).

I'm to lazy to post images.

****EDIT****EDIT ........The SR12X / SR15X distance from the case flat mount to the END of the starter gear is 1.293" or 0.900" to the center of the gear as you have pictured above.

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 12 2006, 02:20 PM

On the engine, the number you quoted that ended with 2R is likely the case casting number, and that number hints it's late 2.0 to an early 2.4. On the right side of the engine (as you look directly at the fan), on a horizonal surface near the cam chain cover, will be a stamped number that looks like 901/xx or 911/xx. The xx is the engine type. Post that and it can be looked up to tell you at least what the engine started as.

I agree that's a VW transaxle.

No help on the flywheel. It doesn't look like the early 901/911 type, nor does it look like the later 915 type. It may be a custom job from a VW flywheel redrilled or recentered for a 911 crank.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 12 2006, 02:53 PM

Are you all done yet? Enough of this crap! Look at the pictures! If you are clueless, don't put bad information into the knowledge base! And you wonder why I'm Krusty!

It's a 911 transaxle. It's a 911 engine. It has what appears to be a 2 litre 911 flywheel.

A VW starter requiring a nose support bushing won't fit, because there's NO BUSHING, and no place for a bushing. The FW depth for a VW with the SR 15x and with the SR17x is the SAME, and the SR17x is often installed in cars with damage to the bore for the bushing. Whatever year the 911 engine is, they ALL TAKE THE SAME STARTER up to the SC, and possibly a little later. 914s take THE SAME STARTER, too. They NEVER sold a 911 with a 6v starter and ring gear, although some of the developmental cars may have been 6v. Some 356C cars were sold with 12v systems, however.

The flywheel ring gear depth is the SAME for 1964-1969 911 and ALL 914s.
If the ring gear is too close to the starter, you need to pull the tranny and find out why. Early cars used a thick plate under the flywheel bolts, much like the lock plate on the T4 flywheel, only much thicker. I dunno whether it's possible to put it on under the F/W, but I've seen some really strange things. If it uses the lock plate, be really careful to get the correct length F/W bolts.

The Cap'n

Posted by: Dr Evil Jul 12 2006, 03:32 PM

Well glad you finally stopepd by to call us all abunch of idiots when we were OPENLY GUESSING and not PROFESSING at a solution. I hope some day that I too can know it all so I can talk down to people like you do

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 12 2006, 04:09 PM

It's just another one of those "give an answer no matter what-don't read the question-don't look at the pictures" kinda thing The picture CLEARLY shows a 901 (NOT a VW, and Bondo SAID it's a 901), the F/W is CLEARLY a close approximation of a 2.0 911 unit, if not the real thing, the bushing hole is CLEARLY not there, 911/914 starters have NEVER used a spacer of any kind, and you can't tell from the outside whether a 901 tranny is a 4 or 5 speed unless you can read the numbers on the bottom. There, you have a little observation, a little specialized knowledge, and a little general knowledge. We've gone over the VW/Porsche starter fittment thing 'til out fingers hurt, yet it keeps popping up. Why? This is NOT a newbie asking, nor are the responses from newbies. I stand by my attitude! The Cap'n

Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 12 2006, 05:40 PM

I stand by my post


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Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 12 2006, 05:45 PM

Factory documentation, never say never

note gear modulus,and "b" dimesion


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Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 12 2006, 06:26 PM

You're right. I'm wrong. I am a firm believer in admitting my mistakes. Others may choose to take example from this. Or not.

That flywheel is for 1964 (360 cars) and the first 1277 1965 cars, and none for export (with USA equipment). It is not listed in the PET, nor is the starter. I doubt you would EVER find a replacement starter for a car of such limited numbers, because the owners of the few remaining cars would be understandably reluctant to part with theirs. Flywheels to fit with the available starters are readily available. I've never seen one of these flywheels, although I've rebuilt a 1964 transaxle as a bench job.

The Cap'n

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 12 2006, 06:48 PM

Replacement 2.0 flywheels ARE available (I just bought a new one not a whole month ago). However, they're rumored to be available only in very limited numbers. The Worldpac warehouse had three when mine was sold to me.

Posted by: "Z" Jul 12 2006, 07:10 PM

Kennedy Engineered Products makes NEW 901/911 flywheels and can provide a clutch and pressure palte for less than oem used flywheels are going for....AND they will make it with any starter ring you want.

Frank had a KEP flywheel for a 2.2 and a 6volt ring gear to fit the 356 tranny.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 12 2006, 07:37 PM

Not THAT 2 litre flywheel. But, yes, they're available, as are the starters, for the later "early" cars. The Cap'n

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 12 2006, 07:40 PM

I doubt you used a 2.2 F/W, because those are a flat disc, and the ring gear goes on after the pull type pressure plate. Wouldn't work with a 356 tranny. The Cap'n

Posted by: bondo Jul 12 2006, 11:06 PM

Whoo, lotsa info! Thanks!

Ok, so now what do we do? Replace the flywheel with a "normal" early 911 flywheel, and then use a "normal" 911 starter?

I'll have to check with my dad on the engine number.. I am now 300 miles away (and finally home from the WCC).

Posted by: "Z" Jul 12 2006, 11:15 PM

I doubt you used a 2.2 F/W, because those are a flat disc, and the ring gear goes on after the pull type pressure plate. Wouldn't work with a 356 tranny. The Cap'n
[/quote]


2.2 ENGINE.....the custom made KEP flywheel had the proper center to bolt up to the 2.2 ENGINE and the flywheel was made to fit the 356 C tranny with a 6v starter with a 12v electrical system....used a 200mm clutch if I remember correctly. They supplied the proper pressure plate and bearing as well. The starter spun like there was a scalded monkey turning it....

Manfred...my 914/6 with the 2.0/6 S motor needed no mods....direct bolt up.

Posted by: bondo Jul 13 2006, 03:17 PM

Bump! So is this what we need to do? change flywheels? I want to make sure I have the right plan before further advising my dad.

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 03:41 PM

I'd take the gearbox off and measure the flywheel you have to see if it's close to the figures for the very early flywheel posted above. If it is, then you'll need to find a later flywheel (you'll still need a 2.0 flywheel to make it work with that gearbox).

Posted by: "Z" Jul 13 2006, 07:47 PM

Send the old flywheel to KEP...they will ID it....use it as a core or give you credit.....

Posted by: bondo Sep 30 2006, 12:22 PM

Ok, I found the engine type number, it's 911/07. What does that mean?

Posted by: mikez Sep 30 2006, 12:25 PM

70/71, 2.2
125hp, came with Zenith Carbs.....

Posted by: bondo Sep 30 2006, 12:31 PM

Cool, thanks!

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Sep 30 2006, 12:38 PM

911/07 is a 2.2T originially fitted to a sportomatic equipped vehicle. Obviously someone has installed a very early flywheel. All things considered, you need to get a newer 2 litre flywheel. They're out there. I may even have a good used one. Despite MTZ being head over heels in love with KEP, the stock setup is gonna be just fine, put less stress on the clutch actuation components, and be more reliable, too....

The Cap'n

Posted by: mikez Sep 30 2006, 12:58 PM

I only use KEP for conversion flywheels....the stock stuff for the early 911s is fine.