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Posted by: GTeener Jul 12 2006, 04:27 PM

I'm considering adding oil coolers behind my front fog light grills.

Who else has done this?
What's it look like?
Are you satisfied with the results?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 12 2006, 06:26 PM

OK... so why is it less preferable to do the oil cooler the proposed way as opposed to the open-mouthed GT way?

Posted by: drew365 Jul 12 2006, 07:47 PM

I know it's been discussed, don't know if anyone has done it. The two biggest drawbacks would be:
Size of cooler would be small, if you go to the trouble to plumb a cooler up front you want to get as much benefit as possible.
Where would you exhaust the hot air? There has to be good flow into, through and out of the cooler for it to be effective. The center of the car makes it easier to do.

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 12 2006, 09:09 PM

Someone here (I want to say Brant) did two smaller coolers, each more or less through the bumper where the fog lights go, with ducting that took that straight into the wheel wells. The major downside is that the headlight buckets have to go, too. Not a very good setup for a street car.

I figure if you're going to do something different, be really different.

For a road car, or for AX, or even track duty with a mild-ish engine, I'm not convinced a "perfect" external cooler is required. Trekkor seems to do OK with almost no venting at all, he just put the cooler in the front trunk. Much like is speculated on 911s with "trombone" cooler, much of the cooling actually takes place in the lines. I would think a very intesting cooler setup would be a "surface" cooler, where you put hard lines with fins along the outside of the longs (or even just one long), plumb the oil to these hard lines with flex hoses, and there's your cooler. Loads of surface area, and the cooler isn't all that delicate or in a spot where it's likely to be easily damaged.

Another idea, convert the engine lid into a GT style, and mount the external cooler just below the forward part of the lid. There's certainly airflow here, and lots of otherwise wasted space. On your car, mounting it on the driver's side would probably be best, since you have all of your ignition stuff on the passenger side.

Yet another idea, mount it low in the engine bay, below the tin, near the firewall. If you're not running any heat, there's lots of room here.

If you are running heat, still another idea is to mount it atop a custom fresh air box at the base of the windscreen. I've seen this done, and the report was that it cooled the engine (a 3.2, in this case) adequately, but didn't generate as much cabin heat as desired. The lines to the cooler were run down the stock heater tubes, which dump straight into the right area for the cooler.

Posted by: brer Jul 12 2006, 09:35 PM

This is something we have onfile for use with Chillers.
http://www.wlv.com/products/products/Enhanced/HFTrufin.pdf

run it up one long and down the other maybe?
something i thought of.

Posted by: BMartin914 Jul 12 2006, 09:41 PM

Gwen,

Search for Brant's race car thread. He has an A+++, 5 star setup utilizing the fog light grills for the intake air. Extremely clean, effective setup. Brant would probably say it is too effective - I believe they ended up blocking one side off...

Posted by: brant Jul 12 2006, 11:53 PM

Thanks Ben!

so Gwen, I have a little experience in this area.
if you don't cut out your headlights and just run coolers against the body then your cooling is somewhat compromised.

Brad built Julius this way and the ended up running a 75 fiberglass bumper in order to move the coolers a few inches off of the body and get exit airflow.

without exit airflow coolers are hugely less efficient.

a PCA club racer budy of mine (car now owned by brian in AZ) tried a pair of fog light grill coolers without exits also. He ran PVC 5inch tubing from the driving light grill to the cooler, on a 2.2hot motor. but again with no exit behind the tiny mocal coolers that were approximately 1 inch off of the body.

He overheated badly at altitude.

he ended up giving up on the system and going with a front mounted cooler that had an exit.

my experiency on cooler exits on my old car led me to try 3 different exits with the same exact cooler. Each time I improved the exit, I dropped more oil temp.

you get something out of having the lines.

but you also get something out of having a functional cooler with a good exit ( larger exit than intake)

I did 2 huge coolers through the fog light grills on my 2.0/6 race car.
they work too much. I can barely get enough temp in the motor. But it's not streetable and I gave up my headlights.

overall... You will get something out of having the lines alone.
but if that something isn't enough then I would recommend a single front oil cooler with a good exit on a street legal car.

if you decide to go race only, then the fog light grills are neat as long as you provide a cooler exit into the wheel wheels and give up your headlights.

happy to talk at length and share my real life experience Gwen!
can provide pictures too.....

brant

Posted by: soupbone Jul 13 2006, 12:04 AM

QUOTE(brer @ Jul 12 2006, 08:35 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 13 2006, 12:12 AM

Gwen, I have an admittedly conservative view of oil cooling. I think you'd be sufficient with an oil cooler without any air flow. You could cut openings behind the fog lights just to introduce fresh air into the trunk. I like James idea of finned lines in the longs, but I think it's got a bit more R&D type work than I think you're looking for.

Posted by: trekkor Jul 13 2006, 08:50 AM

Posted by: Scott Carlberg Jul 13 2006, 10:19 AM

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 13 2006, 10:35 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 12 2006, 10:12 PM)

Posted by: synthesisdv Jul 13 2006, 10:39 AM

was that a recent excellence article? do you know the issue?

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 13 2006, 10:45 AM

QUOTE(synthesisdv @ Jul 13 2006, 08:39 AM)

Posted by: dinomium Jul 13 2006, 11:25 AM

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 13 2006, 09:45 AM)

QUOTE(synthesisdv @ Jul 13 2006, 08:39 AM)

was that a recent excellence article? do you know the issue?

I´ll answer your question tonight...once I get home from work. Its an article from within the last three years. If you have old magazines, look for an article on a red 75 or 76 914...the big issue with this car was that the owner installed a custom made FI using a Volvo TB.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 12:06 PM

Thanks for the help guys. I talked to Tony more about his recommendation last night. His reasoning for the design proposal is that it is streetable, doesn't sacrifice my full spare tire in the front trunk, involves the least cutting up of the car and protects the coolers the best.

BUT He says he hasn't done an ail cooler setup on a 914 for almost 10 years so maybe he doesn't know that the space under the headlights is too small for an oil cooler he couldn't give me a price quote either, because he hasn't done it in a while.

A co-worker who is also an ex-Porsche mechanic suggested mounting an oil cooler and fan in the back close to the oil tank under the trunk protected by the rear suspension. He says it would be a short plumbing job that will provide adequate cooling (not as efficient as fresh air), not blow hot air into the engine, and require the least holes in the car. Says he did something similar to his VW bus. Anyone done or seen this done?

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 13 2006, 12:13 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 10:06 AM)

Thanks for the help guys. I talked to Tony more about his recommendation last night. His reasoning for the design proposal is that it is streetable, doesn't sacrifice my full spare tire in the front trunk, involves the least cutting up of the car and protects the coolers the best.

BUT He says he hasn't done an ail cooler setup on a 914 for almost 10 years so maybe he doesn't know that the space under the headlights is too small for an oil cooler he couldn't give me a price quote either, because he hasn't done it in a while.

A co-worker who is also an ex-Porsche mechanic suggested mounting an oil cooler and fan in the back close to the oil tank under the trunk protected by the rear suspension. He says it would be a short plumbing job that will provide adequate cooling (not as efficient as fresh air), not blow hot air into the engine, and require the least holes in the car. Says he did something similar to his VW bus. Anyone done or seen this done?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 12:28 PM

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 13 2006, 11:13 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 10:06 AM)

Thanks for the help guys. I talked to Tony more about his recommendation last night. His reasoning for the design proposal is that it is streetable, doesn't sacrifice my full spare tire in the front trunk, involves the least cutting up of the car and protects the coolers the best.

BUT He says he hasn't done an ail cooler setup on a 914 for almost 10 years so maybe he doesn't know that the space under the headlights is too small for an oil cooler he couldn't give me a price quote either, because he hasn't done it in a while.

A co-worker who is also an ex-Porsche mechanic suggested mounting an oil cooler and fan in the back close to the oil tank under the trunk protected by the rear suspension. He says it would be a short plumbing job that will provide adequate cooling (not as efficient as fresh air), not blow hot air into the engine, and require the least holes in the car. Says he did something similar to his VW bus. Anyone done or seen this done?

Wes Hildreth in Dallas sells a kit that installs underneath the rear trunk as you indicated. It requires an electrical fan that is switched on-off manually from within the cockpit. I didn´t like the switching on-off part...the reason I am going inside the rear fender. This setup also uses short oil lines.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 13 2006, 12:38 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 10:28 AM)

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 13 2006, 11:13 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 10:06 AM)

Thanks for the help guys. I talked to Tony more about his recommendation last night. His reasoning for the design proposal is that it is streetable, doesn't sacrifice my full spare tire in the front trunk, involves the least cutting up of the car and protects the coolers the best.

BUT He says he hasn't done an ail cooler setup on a 914 for almost 10 years so maybe he doesn't know that the space under the headlights is too small for an oil cooler he couldn't give me a price quote either, because he hasn't done it in a while.

A co-worker who is also an ex-Porsche mechanic suggested mounting an oil cooler and fan in the back close to the oil tank under the trunk protected by the rear suspension. He says it would be a short plumbing job that will provide adequate cooling (not as efficient as fresh air), not blow hot air into the engine, and require the least holes in the car. Says he did something similar to his VW bus. Anyone done or seen this done?

Wes Hildreth in Dallas sells a kit that installs underneath the rear trunk as you indicated. It requires an electrical fan that is switched on-off manually from within the cockpit. I didn´t like the switching on-off part...the reason I am going inside the rear fender. This setup also uses short oil lines.

Seems inside the fender wells wouldn't protect the oil cooler from getting damaged I saw that the MOCAL kits for the 911s mount them in the front fender wells. Anything that gets picked up by the tires and flinged around the weel wells seems to be a threat to an oil cooler in there.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 12:44 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Jul 13 2006, 07:50 AM)

QUOTE

Trekkor seems to do OK with almost no venting at all, he just put the cooler in the front trunk.

Not exactly...

My HUGE cooler sits in front of three large exit holes.
I use the front grommet holes as my inlets.

So, I have fresh air in and hot air out.

On a track car, this has to be done. ( unless you like short sessions )


KT

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 12:46 PM

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 13 2006, 11:38 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 10:28 AM)

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 13 2006, 11:13 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 10:06 AM)

Thanks for the help guys. I talked to Tony more about his recommendation last night. His reasoning for the design proposal is that it is streetable, doesn't sacrifice my full spare tire in the front trunk, involves the least cutting up of the car and protects the coolers the best.

BUT He says he hasn't done an ail cooler setup on a 914 for almost 10 years so maybe he doesn't know that the space under the headlights is too small for an oil cooler he couldn't give me a price quote either, because he hasn't done it in a while.

A co-worker who is also an ex-Porsche mechanic suggested mounting an oil cooler and fan in the back close to the oil tank under the trunk protected by the rear suspension. He says it would be a short plumbing job that will provide adequate cooling (not as efficient as fresh air), not blow hot air into the engine, and require the least holes in the car. Says he did something similar to his VW bus. Anyone done or seen this done?

Wes Hildreth in Dallas sells a kit that installs underneath the rear trunk as you indicated. It requires an electrical fan that is switched on-off manually from within the cockpit. I didn´t like the switching on-off part...the reason I am going inside the rear fender. This setup also uses short oil lines.

Seems inside the fender wells wouldn't protect the oil cooler from getting damaged I saw that the MOCAL kits for the 911s mount them in the front fender wells. Anything that gets picked up by the tires and flinged around the weel wells seems to be a threat to an oil cooler in there.

911 kits install in the front fender well....I am talking rear fender well using the Mocal 914 cooler kit. The cooler in this area would have to be installed sideways so the fins are not exposed to debriss. Besides, it is some distance in front of the rear passenger wheel.

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 12:58 PM

I believe Rich Johnson has an under trunk cooler with a fan, as well. One could easily switch the fan with a temperature sensitive switch, rather than manually. These switches are commonly available for use with watercooled engines, but can be used with oil just as easily. Most are also adjustable so you can change the temps they use to switch it on or off.

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 01:03 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 11:46 AM)

Posted by: BKLA Jul 13 2006, 01:19 PM

Mid '70s 911's had brass tube oil coolers (coiled and multi tube - depending on the function and model) in the right front wheel well. They were more like heat sinks, not radiator types, and were much less susceptible to flying debris.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 01:20 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 13 2006, 12:03 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 11:46 AM)

Ricky,
I'm still skeptical about the exposure inside any wheel well next to a spinning tire.

Placing it in front of the tire (as I believe was suggested) means it's unlikely anything will be thrown off the tire into the cooler. Behind the tire, then, yes, you'd have to shield the cooler somehow. The 911S put a cooler behind a front tire for several years.

Posted by: Brando Jul 13 2006, 01:27 PM

the "911" became water cooled

Basically their oil coolers a big coolant->oil heat exchanger.

Posted by: jhadler Jul 13 2006, 01:37 PM

James, I would think you would be well aware of the pummeling the inside of a wheel well takes when the car is shod with sticky race tires. No surface inside the wheel well is safe from gravel and debris being tossed up by the tires.

The gap on the passenger side inner fender well is a nice size, but there is very little air flow in there, it's pretty stagnant. Unless you cut a hole and add a duct, you're just gonna have a pocket of hot air in there, it won't make the oil cooler very efficient.

Mounting the oil cooler to the engine lid (minus the drip tray) is okay, better with a fan attached. But still has the problem of drawing low pressure air and venting that hot air into the engine bay.

There have been a number of installs in the rear under the trunck. Not bad, as long as it has a fan. But you're trying to cool that oil cooler with 125 degree temperature air. You're right next to the heat exchangers, the transmission and swimming in the heted air coming off the engine.

Up front is where the cooling is at. Even a tube-n-fin oil cooler up front (in the cooler, high pressure air) will be more effective than a mocal oil cooler wedged into the passenger wheel well.

Brant's setup is a work of art, In my opinion, it doesn't get much better than that. Then again, it's a lot of work and money to make something like that. I'm working on making a front oil cooler setup that works without cutting any sheet metal (not allowed in my class). I thought about the fog light grilles, but there's just no where for the the heated air to exit that area.

-Josh2

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 13 2006, 11:03 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 11:46 AM)

Ricky,
I'm still skeptical about the exposure inside any wheel well next to a spinning tire.

Placing it in front of the tire (as I believe was suggested) means it's unlikely anything will be thrown off the tire into the cooler. Behind the tire, then, yes, you'd have to shield the cooler somehow. The 911S put a cooler behind a front tire for several years.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 13 2006, 01:46 PM

simple:

efficiency has some to do with SIZE of the cooler, but MOSTLY airflow.

do it once. do it upfront. never touch it again

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 13 2006, 02:08 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 13 2006, 10:58 AM)

Posted by: rktmn247 Jul 13 2006, 02:09 PM

Take a look at eastcoaster's thread. His cooler install is very very nice!

Posted by: jhadler Jul 13 2006, 02:09 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 13 2006, 11:46 AM)

do it once. do it upfront. never touch it again

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 13 2006, 02:11 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Jul 13 2006, 01:09 PM)

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 13 2006, 11:46 AM)

do it once. do it upfront. never touch it again

Yup, "Buy cheap, buy twice..."

Do it right the first time. Learn from other people's experience, it's cheaper...

-Josh2

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 02:14 PM

I'm not arguing more effective or less effective. I'm arguing effective enough. I'm also arguing trading off factors other than optimal cooling, like not wanting to run lines all the way to the front and back, taking up front trunk space, cutting vent holes, etc. Maximum thermal efficiency is not the be-all end-all solution.

Gwen's car uses a 2.2, which may or may not be in S tune (there's some doubt about that). It's primarily a street car. If she ran a front-mounted Mocal with full venting, my bet is her thermostat would be closed most of the time.

In my own case, I intend to try running my 2.7 with no external cooler at all. I'll be using an aluminum oil tank, so I'm hoping for some additional heat loss there. If I do end up needing an external cooler, I'll most likely try a simple cooler in the engine bay first, or even the along-the-long-trombone idea. Perhaps some louvers on the rocker valence for better airflow. I think the idea has considerable merit.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 03:17 PM

Granted I don't typically drive at altitude like at WCC, but I typically register 220 and at WCC I was a steaming 260

I'd like to go to RRC (UT) and next year the SWC (NM). I have been known to autocross and occaisonally do a track-day, but ya, it's mostly a street car. So I'd prefer not to sacrifice my spare tire and headlights....

Oh ya... I did get confirmation that my engine is a properly tuned 2.2S. I just don't have the S distributor or shroud.

I do like the open-mouthed GT look though


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 03:41 PM

[gulp] What should this modification cost?

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 03:49 PM

I don't think there are any off-the-shelf kits to do what you want, except maybe for the Wes (mumble) kit mentioned above. Rich Johnson can probably quote you a price on that.

The parts alone will be in the $300-400 range. No telling on how much labor would be involved.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 13 2006, 03:52 PM

the labor isnt "That bad". drill some holes, make some openings, buy a shroud

30 feet of -12 braided line at around 9 bucks a foot. (or you can go with the cheaper fittings and socketless hose)
GT shroud FG parts.... 100?
various fittings 100
mocal thermostat 100
Setrab/Mocal/Fluidyne/Mazda rx7 cooler - 50-400

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 06:12 PM

Setrab/Mocal/Fluidyne/Mazda RX7 cooler

Is the quality of all these coolers equal?

I've been told offline only use MOCAL or Fluidyne and then by someone else that the Mazda RX7 cooler was definitely the way to go

Posted by: trekkor Jul 13 2006, 08:40 PM

Fun thread!

If you want to know if a spare tire will fit up front with a set-up like mine, try to set the tire on top of the spare cover instead of underneath.

I actually block some of the inlet holes in cold weather.
In 111 degree temps at TH after 25 minutes of *FLOGGING*, the temps creep up to 230-235. WhoooWaaa!!

30 feet of line will definatly do the job, but it's more like 24-26.
Fittings are $20-50 each
My BIG Setrab cooler lists at $440
Mocal t-Stat is $125ish.

It'll be close to a grandsky when you are all said and done.
If it's cheaper, hooray!!

Any car that sees serious track duty, *WILL* need a cooler. Period.



KT

Posted by: GeorgeRud Jul 13 2006, 09:08 PM

The finned lines were used along the passenger side rocker panel by Riccardo Gonzales in Indiana, and they seemed to work well for him.

My 2.7 is cooled by a turbotrol cooler (Lenke Design) laid flat over an opening in the front trunk floor, with ducting bringing air from the front GT style bumper.

Back in the 70's, Porsche used the lines up the passenger side to the front hoop and back again. Basically, the front hoop was just a fancy U shaped detour to the back of the car. They figured that with the 55MPH speed limit, we didn't need any more cooling. No wonder the 2.7s had so many problems with heat!

I agree that there's no need to reengineer the system, the front coolers work very well as long as there is an outlet for the hot air! The lines are not that hard to run up there.

Posted by: drew365 Jul 13 2006, 09:32 PM

When I first bought my car it had a cooler under the rear trunk with a fan. It was adequate for the street but as soon as I went on track it was not cutting it as I quickly saw temps rise to 250+. If your going to run on the track you have to protect your engine, I don't think any cooler in the engine bay will be enough protection for the track.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 13 2006, 10:52 PM

tough decision!? So many credible seeming advice... front mounted or back with a fan

Then there's the decision of who to trust to do the work for me

Trekkor,
your setup does look pretty clean. Not sure about those huge outlet holes, but I undertsand the need to vent hot air out.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 14 2006, 10:04 AM

QUOTE(synthesisdv @ Jul 13 2006, 08:39 AM)

Posted by: URY914 Jul 14 2006, 11:36 AM

Gwen, here are some pictures of the Gunnar Racing 914 with twin front coolers. This wouldn't be something you would want to do to a street car but it tell you what can be done.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 14 2006, 11:58 AM

Description of Rich Johnson´s car:

An Earls cooler is mounted under the rear trunk next to the starter. A custom bracket holds the cooler and the fan set (blows down through the cooler) about an inch off the bottom of the trunks floor for air flow to the two 12v commercial fans. Thanks to Wes at H&H Enterprises for this idea.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 12:01 PM

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM)

Posted by: stevesc_us Jul 14 2006, 12:03 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 09:52 PM)

tough decision!? So many credible seeming advice... front mounted or back with a fan

Then there's the decision of who to trust to do the work for me

Trekkor,
your setup does look pretty clean. Not sure about those huge outlet holes, but I undertsand the need to vent hot air out.

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 14 2006, 12:14 PM

When is this event? Is it at Carlsen Porsche? Have a pic of your car?

Posted by: stevesc_us Jul 14 2006, 12:21 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 14 2006, 11:14 AM)

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Jul 14 2006, 12:49 PM

QUOTE(stevesc_us @ Jul 14 2006, 10:03 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 09:52 PM)

tough decision!? So many credible seeming advice... front mounted or back with a fan

Then there's the decision of who to trust to do the work for me

Trekkor,
your setup does look pretty clean. Not sure about those huge outlet holes, but I undertsand the need to vent hot air out.

If you want to see a really clean set-up, I will be showing my original six at the Carlsen Concourse this Sunday in Redwood City. I have a 3.2 motor with an external oil cooler mounted on the underside of the engine lid. It is a very efficient set up. The temp never gets much above 180 even when driving it hard.

Steve

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 12:51 PM

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 11:49 AM)

QUOTE(stevesc_us @ Jul 14 2006, 10:03 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 13 2006, 09:52 PM)

tough decision!? So many credible seeming advice... front mounted or back with a fan

Then there's the decision of who to trust to do the work for me

Trekkor,
your setup does look pretty clean. Not sure about those huge outlet holes, but I undertsand the need to vent hot air out.

If you want to see a really clean set-up, I will be showing my original six at the Carlsen Concourse this Sunday in Redwood City. I have a 3.2 motor with an external oil cooler mounted on the underside of the engine lid. It is a very efficient set up. The temp never gets much above 180 even when driving it hard.

Steve

Is this your car?

Posted by: jhadler Jul 14 2006, 01:10 PM

Oh, I'm sure it helps.

Certainly not as much as front mounted, but it's sure better than nothing. Then again, power suffers a little more with the higher temperature intake charge...

Lid mounted coolers are very convinient, but a double edged sword. The convinience is offset by the fact that the very thing put in place to cool the motor down, is helping to heat it up as well...

But... no fan?? Not gonna be very effective there without a fan...

-Josh2

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 14 2006, 02:21 PM

Again, there's "optimal", and there's "good enough". If even "hard driving" keeps a 3.2 under 180 degrees, it appears to be "good enough", even without a fan, even with pre-heating the cooling air, etc. This is a tidy, simple setup that's easy to do, and doesn't require much cutting of the car at all. It does the job.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 02:22 PM

QUOTE(URY914 @ Jul 14 2006, 10:36 AM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 02:24 PM

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 02:26 PM

QUOTE(stevesc_us @ Jul 14 2006, 11:21 AM)

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 14 2006, 11:14 AM)

When is this event? Is it at Carlsen Porsche? Have a pic of your car?

Yes it is at Carlsen Porsche this Sunday. I hope to have Dean Vanni there with his full concourse signal orange six that has one the Parade in the past.

Pics of my set up were posted a couple of months ago by Carreraguy. I will try to post again.

You should try to make it this Sunday and check it out.

Steve

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 02:30 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM)

Description of Rich Johnson´s car:

An Earls cooler is mounted under the rear trunk next to the starter. A custom bracket holds the cooler and the fan set (blows down through the cooler) about an inch off the bottom of the trunks floor for air flow to the two 12v commercial fans. Thanks to Wes at H&H Enterprises for this idea.

Hey, ya! That's what my coworker suggested! Thanks for the pix

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 14 2006, 02:34 PM

Yes. Pegasus, as an example, sells coolers that are as small as 8.25x3 (inches). I'm sure there are plenty of other places you could get them, as well. Thickness may be a problem, however, unless you cut the body behind the front bumper.

I think it's probably just possible that you can fit a cooler below the headlight, along with some ducting into the wheel well behind it. You're looking at doing enough custom work, however, that this will be more expensive than a simple front-mounted cooler (custom is nearly always more expensive than off-the-shelf).

Did you ever solve your cutting-out problem, btw?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 02:41 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 14 2006, 01:34 PM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 02:46 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 01:30 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM)

Description of Rich Johnson´s car:

An Earls cooler is mounted under the rear trunk next to the starter. A custom bracket holds the cooler and the fan set (blows down through the cooler) about an inch off the bottom of the trunks floor for air flow to the two 12v commercial fans. Thanks to Wes at H&H Enterprises for this idea.

Hey, ya! That's what my coworker suggested! Thanks for the pix

sorry, i am anti enginebay/rear trunk cooler mount nazi.

look at that picture... where is it getting its circulating air from? oh, the hot air off the header? the air swimming around the hot tranny?

i would put it on the targa top (baja bug style LOL) before i lay it flat under a trunk...

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 03:02 PM

Trekkor,

Why'd you mount yours at the back of the front trunk over the exit holes instead of close to the fresh air intake holes?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 03:44 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 01:46 PM)

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 01:30 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM)

Description of Rich Johnson´s car:

An Earls cooler is mounted under the rear trunk next to the starter. A custom bracket holds the cooler and the fan set (blows down through the cooler) about an inch off the bottom of the trunks floor for air flow to the two 12v commercial fans. Thanks to Wes at H&H Enterprises for this idea.

Hey, ya! That's what my coworker suggested! Thanks for the pix

sorry, i am anti enginebay/rear trunk cooler mount nazi.

look at that picture... where is it getting its circulating air from? oh, the hot air off the header? the air swimming around the hot tranny?

i would put it on the targa top (baja bug style LOL) before i lay it flat under a trunk...

What about a low profile fresh air scoop on the end of the rocker panels?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 03:52 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 02:44 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 01:46 PM)

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 01:30 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE(rickyhgarcia @ Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM)

Description of Rich Johnson´s car:

An Earls cooler is mounted under the rear trunk next to the starter. A custom bracket holds the cooler and the fan set (blows down through the cooler) about an inch off the bottom of the trunks floor for air flow to the two 12v commercial fans. Thanks to Wes at H&H Enterprises for this idea.

Hey, ya! That's what my coworker suggested! Thanks for the pix

sorry, i am anti enginebay/rear trunk cooler mount nazi.

look at that picture... where is it getting its circulating air from? oh, the hot air off the header? the air swimming around the hot tranny?

i would put it on the targa top (baja bug style LOL) before i lay it flat under a trunk...

What about a low profile fresh air scoop on the end of the rocker panels?

then the tube somehow needs to come in front of the wheel... miss a header.. miss the heads... keep it from melting... onto the rear trunk just to duct cooling air to a spot....

seems like trying really hard to bandaid a bad idea....

just my opinion.

up front gets clean easy airflow...... yes, it costs more upfront, but you wont have to do it twice

i reaally like your fog light grill idea.... it looks like there is room up there.. maybe like 2 7x6" coolers.. ductiong under the headlights....

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 03:53 PM

ill go take some headlight bucket pics for you.

we can then determine what you will need to do cooler wise and cutting wise.

basically, you need to cut a hole behind the cooler, and in front of it.
intake and exit

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 03:58 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 02:53 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 02:58 PM)

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 02:53 PM)

ill go take some headlight bucket pics for you.

we can then determine what you will need to do cooler wise and cutting wise.

basically, you need to cut a hole behind the cooler, and in front of it.
intake and exit

Thanks
The cuts won't compromise the structural integrity of the chassis will it?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:08 PM

looks like you have about 7"-8" from nose of car to front of fenderwell...

and, about 8" of width to work with under the headlight....

and the only thing you may have to do, is cut the rain funnel off the bottom of the headlight bucket.....

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:18 PM

Mocal has a cooler that will fit under the headlight.

I measure 8" from the support with the two big holes in it out to the inner fender wall.
I measure about 5.5" from the floor to the bottom of the headlight bucket.
I measure about 3" between the wheel arch to the headlight drain.

You could keep the drain in place and put the cooler behind it.

Structure is no at issue there.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 04:23 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 14 2006, 03:18 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:23 PM

Mocal 115 in the 5.78" height would probably work. 5 1/8" wide cooler face and 2" deep.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 04:25 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 03:06 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 02:58 PM)

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 02:53 PM)

ill go take some headlight bucket pics for you.

we can then determine what you will need to do cooler wise and cutting wise.

basically, you need to cut a hole behind the cooler, and in front of it.
intake and exit

Thanks
The cuts won't compromise the structural integrity of the chassis will it?

im not a stuctural engineer LOL...

the coolest thing i saw with the v8 cars, was welding in a loose but thick gauge mesh... puts some strength back in.

but check this out.

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:26 PM

It's not a bolt in, by any means, but the concept it sound. Run a pair of them, put a Y splitter in the oil supply line and run the coolers in parallel. The straight flow ducting and frontal access to air should make the cooler very efficient, even though it is quite small.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:26 PM

mark beat me to oil cooler size hunting...

i think you need the fittings on the SIDE tho.... (to get access to the plumbing....

so the height can now be 8" but the width can only be 5.5"

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:27 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 14 2006, 03:26 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 03:26 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:29 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 03:27 PM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 14 2006, 03:26 PM)

It's not a bolt in, by any means, but the concept it sound. Run a pair of them, put a Y splitter in the oil supply line and run the coolers in parallel. The straight flow ducting and frontal access to air should make the cooler very efficient, even though it is quite small.

why not run them one after another? i *think* they would cool the same either way tho LOL (cant think right now)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:30 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 14 2006, 03:28 PM)

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 03:26 PM)

mark beat me to oil cooler size hunting...

i think you need the fittings on the SIDE tho.... (to get access to the plumbing....

so the height can now be 8" but the width can only be 5.5"

Welders my man. Port location is the least of my worries.

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:33 PM

I'm focusing on a straight shot without cutting much of the chassis. Welding 90 degree extensions on the ports to make them accessible is very very easy. Like don't even think about it easy.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:35 PM

or you can use 90* AN fittings...

smart.

i looked in pet for a front fender mock up pic.... none from the right angle....

looks like 2 openings, and a rain spout removal may be all that are required body cutting wise.... (per side)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 04:40 PM

So Mark... If I give you $1K will you do a primo job for me so I can make it to the RRC event?

Series9 says: Use Fluidyne or Mocal oil coolers w/-12AN fittings. Aeroquip fittings and Aeroquip braided lines with a Mocal -12 thermostat. Set aside $1000 to do the job properly. Adding an external cooler on a /6 is something best left to a competent shop. Take the car to someone you trust.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:43 PM

Mocal, Setrab, and Fluidyne are primo coolers..... Behr and a few others also make some good ones.

Gwenster, you also have to decide where you will run your lines.

Do it GT style under the rockerpanels, and into the footwell?

have heat xchangers? or headers?

you can also run them up the heater ducts IN the longs.

then, when you get to the front of the car, you can use the Box Gusset like the GT cars did to sneak it into the front trunk,
or you can run your hose up the inner fenderwell and have it come out over by the shock tower....

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 03:43 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 04:48 PM

prices..
Coolers
MOC - 19212 19 5 3/4 - 12 AN $147.25
MOC - 19212 19 5 3/4 - 12 AN $147.25
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/cooler.htm
300 bucks in coolers....

MOC12AN- 12 180 Degree F. - $89.99
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/mocal.htm
runnning total =390 with thermostat....

- 12 braided aeroquip hose FBA1200 $7.61 (per foot) a tad under 30 feet needed
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/aero.htm
230 bucks in hose(worst case 30 feet)
running total = 620.00

add in various fittings = 200
running total = 820

shipping from RPW = 40?

860 with primo components from ONE place on the net

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 04:57 PM

Overhead mockup pictured below.

Aaron, 90 degree AN fittings are very tall and might interfere with the chassis. But acquiring male AN fittings and welding and extension pipe the makes a tighter 90 degree bend is possible.

Gwen, there's a lot more to figure out. Also, this is experimental. I like the idea, it makes sense to me. But it is unproven. Make sure you're comfortable with that.

2 Coolers @ $180 = $360 (shipping included in this price, not in Aaron's)
AN Lines (rubber) = $150
Thermostat = $100
AN Fittings = $200

That's $810 just in parts.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: stevesc_us Jul 14 2006, 04:59 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 14 2006, 01:21 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 05:06 PM

setrab coolers in the same size are
width with mounting tabs 8 - 1/4
cooler width 6 - 3/8
height 5 - 3/4
depth 2 "
Part number 119
$140 livermore performance.com

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 05:08 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 14 2006, 03:57 PM)

Overhead mockup pictured below.

Aaron, 90 degree AN fittings are very tall and might interfere with the chassis. But acquiring male AN fittings and welding and extension pipe the makes a tighter 90 degree bend is possible.

Gwen, there's a lot more to figure out. Also, this is experimental. I like the idea, it makes sense to me. But it is unproven. Make sure you're comfortable with that.

2 Coolers @ $180 = $360 (shipping included in this price, not in Aaron's)
AN Lines (rubber) = $150
Thermostat = $100
AN Fittings = $200

That's $810 just in parts.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 14 2006, 05:16 PM

As I mentioned in our PM discussions, I firmly believe Trekkor's setup to be ideal for your needs. It may be a bit of overkill, but "overkill" is FAR preferable to "overcook". The exit openings could be shuttered as a "dial in" procedure to achieve optimum cooling under various circumstances. While I don't believe the cooler he has is necessarily the right size for you, smaller ones are available. His setup is clean, the thermostat is near the end of the lines so the oil benefits from heat transfer for the length of the run, whether or not the cooler is in the loop. You retain all but a small portion of your luggage capacity, and the system is as efficient as you're gonna find. Cutting of body panels is minimal, labor times are reduced, and you get what you need and then some. There's plenty of room for a thermostatically controlled fan should one be needed. If you use a trunk mounted cooler, it ain't gonna be anywhere close to as effective, and the small, behind the bumper coolers are gonna be an expensive exercise in futility, with the return on the dollar numbers being very low.

To recap. Cheap, effective, clean, pretty non-invasive, visually attractive, proven, and it can be tailored to your needs, now and in the future. Al Gore, noted climatic expert, says it's gonna be REALLY hot, real soon. Of course, you're gonna be under water, what with you being in the bay area and all ......................

If you want a REALLY EXPERIENCED opinion, call Otto. 310 399 3221 Trust me, you WILL get an opinion, LOL.

I'm outta here ................. The Cap'n

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 05:24 PM

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 14 2006, 04:16 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 05:25 PM

If my spare tire fits in the trunk over the board I'm game for Trekkor's design. I still don't understand why the cooler is mounted against the exit holes and not the fresh air intake holes?

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 05:27 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 04:08 PM)

It's a proven solution with bigger coolers in the same places. Is the experimental part laying the cooler down instead of mounting it upright?

What will you do it for? Once you perfect the design, others will benefit

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 05:42 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 14 2006, 04:27 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 04:08 PM)

It's a proven solution with bigger coolers in the same places. Is the experimental part laying the cooler down instead of mounting it upright?

What will you do it for? Once you perfect the design, others will benefit

The cooler isn't laid down. It's upright and air flows straight through it. But the coolers are quite small. I am cautious with any new idea. I think it sounds good enough to try it, that's saying something. But there is a small possibility that at the end of the day it won't give enough cooling. Any time you're breaking new ground, you're taking a risk. Something similar has been done and has worked, but that only proves the basis of the idea since we are talking about drastically changing the implementation. There is very little similar about the race car fog light coolers, and what we're talking about. Those have different motors, different coolers, different installations, and all of those things can completely change the effectiveness of the idea. If you're not comfortable with breaking new ground and accepting that risk, there are tons of proven effective methods that will suit your needs.

At my rates it would probably $500-$700 in labor fees.

Posted by: xitspd Jul 14 2006, 05:42 PM

My B&B without ducting in place.

Dan


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 05:44 PM

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 05:52 PM

What is lost other than labor cost in going the way of the 2 small fog light cooler route?

The lines and fittings are re-usable aren't they?

Most of the lines will still be located in the proper place going to the back of the car, right?

If the chassis doesn't get cut up, which is what I prefer, I can still go the way of the more traditional GT front coolers, can't I?

The two small coolers will cool more than what I've got, which is no cooler, right?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 05:54 PM

i like the attitude! try something new!

worst case, you weld in patches for what you cut out, and go GT style...

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 14 2006, 05:57 PM

If my spare tire fits in the trunk over the board I'm game for Trekkor's design. I still don't understand why the cooler is mounted against the exit holes and not the fresh air intake holes?
[/quote]
The front of the chamber, or the rear. Doesn't matter. The air goes in at the front, exits at the back, passing through the cooler. The top effectively makes the whole thing a duct. The Cap'n

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 14 2006, 05:58 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 04:42 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 05:59 PM

If for some unforseen reason the small cooler setup does not work well enough, you will be left with the following body metal holes: 1.) a hole behind the fog light grills 2.) a hole in front of the wheel (air exit) 3.) an access hole cut in the body brace in the front trunk (the piece with two big holes in it). All three of those areas can easily be recreated with replacement stock metal. The oil coolers could be sold on eBay, and the oil lines and fitting could be reused.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 06:02 PM

[quote name='Cap'n Krusty' date='Jul 14 2006, 04:57 PM' post='728313']
If my spare tire fits in the trunk over the board I'm game for Trekkor's design. I still don't understand why the cooler is mounted against the exit holes and not the fresh air intake holes?
[/quote]
The front of the chamber, or the rear. Doesn't matter. The air goes in at the front, exits at the back, passing through the cooler. The top effectively makes the whole thing a duct. The Cap'n
[/quote]

Gotcha. Thanks for 'splaining me

I'll see if the tire fits in the trunk on top of my board this weekend.

I somehow doubt it though. It's a 205/50/15

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 14 2006, 06:06 PM

james, i already said i was biased against the trunk mount coolers....

its all good.

Aaron the asstalker

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 06:12 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 14 2006, 04:58 PM)

Posted by: Series9 Jul 14 2006, 06:16 PM

I suggested the rear cooler with a fan as well. It could be made to work. It's a 2.2S, not 3.8.

Remember, I'm the guy who did the 'impossible' by fitting 225s on the back of a narrow bodied car, I'm pretty sure I could set up a very functional oil cooler in the back of a 2.2.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 14 2006, 06:19 PM

QUOTE(Series9 @ Jul 14 2006, 05:16 PM)

I suggested the rear cooler with a fan as well. It could be made to work. It's a 2.2S, not 3.8.

Remember, I'm the guy who did the 'impossible' by fitting 225s on the back of a narrow bodied car, I'm pretty sure I could set up a very functional oil cooler in the back of a 2.2.

Posted by: Series9 Jul 14 2006, 06:22 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 06:19 PM)

QUOTE(Series9 @ Jul 14 2006, 05:16 PM)

I suggested the rear cooler with a fan as well. It could be made to work. It's a 2.2S, not 3.8.

Remember, I'm the guy who did the 'impossible' by fitting 225s on the back of a narrow bodied car, I'm pretty sure I could set up a very functional oil cooler in the back of a 2.2.

Come and get her and do it for me Joe

or at least give me a parts list (vendors, manufacturers, model #'s)

Posted by: McMark Jul 14 2006, 06:27 PM

There you go.

Posted by: drew365 Jul 14 2006, 06:29 PM

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 14 2006, 04:16 PM)

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 14 2006, 07:33 PM

QUOTE(drew365 @ Jul 14 2006, 05:29 PM)

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 14 2006, 04:16 PM)

If you want a REALLY EXPERIENCED opinion, call Otto. 310 399 3221 Trust me, you WILL get an opinion, LOL.

Truer words have never been spoken!

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 14 2006, 07:41 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 14 2006, 05:06 PM)

james, i already said i was biased against the trunk mount coolers....

its all good.

Aaron the asstalker

Posted by: trekkor Jul 14 2006, 08:14 PM

For the record, I like my set-up.
The bottom line is this: 111 degrees at Thunderhill's got nothing on me.


KT

Posted by: drew365 Jul 14 2006, 09:34 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Jul 14 2006, 07:14 PM)

For the record, I like my set-up.
The bottom line is this: 111 degrees at Thunderhill's got nothing on me.


KT

Posted by: East coaster Jul 14 2006, 10:25 PM

A few posts back someone mentioned adding steel mesh to re-enforce openings. I did this on my oil cooler outlets and it made an incredible difference in structural rigidity. When I cut the holes the surrounding sheetmetal became very unstable and would "oil can" very easily. I welded in some grill work liberated from an extra engine grill and it is now solid as a rock. Just thought I'd echo that it make a big diff.




And a gratutitous oil cooler pic:

Posted by: jonwatts Jul 14 2006, 11:18 PM

East coaster, that is hot (in the Paris Hilton sense). I really like the job you did there. Even the grill you welded in is 914-correct

Posted by: maf914 Jul 15 2006, 07:24 AM

QUOTE(jonwatts @ Jul 14 2006, 09:18 PM)

East coaster, that is hot (in the Paris Hilton sense). I really like the job you did there. Even the grill you welded in is 914-correct

Posted by: GTeener Jul 15 2006, 06:57 PM

QUOTE(Series9 @ Jul 14 2006, 05:22 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 14 2006, 06:19 PM)

QUOTE(Series9 @ Jul 14 2006, 05:16 PM)

I suggested the rear cooler with a fan as well. It could be made to work. It's a 2.2S, not 3.8.

Remember, I'm the guy who did the 'impossible' by fitting 225s on the back of a narrow bodied car, I'm pretty sure I could set up a very functional oil cooler in the back of a 2.2.

Come and get her and do it for me Joe

or at least give me a parts list (vendors, manufacturers, model #'s)

Fine. Take detailed pictures of the underside of your engine bay and under your trunk.

I'll set it up and intall it on Friday at the RRC.

Cost is $500 + parts.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 17 2006, 10:10 AM

Any idea how much cooling (approx. reduction in temp) this design will provide?

Joe,

How much do you think parts will cost for the under car with fan?
Would it be better if I bought and brought the parts?

Posted by: Series9 Jul 17 2006, 10:12 AM

Probably around $600 in parts.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 17 2006, 10:32 AM

600 for a rear cooler?

must be a fluidyne cooler then....

Posted by: Series9 Jul 17 2006, 10:41 AM

I'm thinking about $250 for the cooler, $100 for the thermostat and $250 in lines and fittings.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 17 2006, 10:47 AM

What happens if it doesn't cool enough?

What if the fan can't generate enough cool air from under the car at 60+ MPH?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 17 2006, 02:10 PM

So I just talked to Rich Walton at Jerry Woods Enterprises (JWE). He likes the idea of the 2 small coolers in the fog light location. BUT he's never done it either

He thinks that it can be done outside the chassis behind the horn grills, like was suggested already. Thereby not cutting the car much and cooling well. The lines will already be in the proper places if I decide to go big full frontal later

He'd also charge me a ridiculous amount to do the work...but he'll do the work

The thing he was most concerned about is why my little 2.2S was generating that much heat. Even my typical 220 temp. was higher than he'd recommend. They like their cars (albeit taildraggers with coolers outside the chassis) running between 180-210.

He suggests checking the cloggage condition of the engine's current oil cooler.

How easy is that to get at and check out?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 17 2006, 02:12 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 17 2006, 09:47 AM)

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 17 2006, 02:52 PM

First thing, not yet discussed at all: how are you checking your oil temp? If you're going by the gauge on the dash, has that ever been checked for accuracy? PA Speedo could do this for you.

Second, you can see the bottom of the oil cooler from underneath. Driver's side of the car, rear of the engine, aft of the aft-most cylinder. There will be an oil line coming out below the cooler. To see the top of the cooler look at the fan cooling shroud, and see if you can distinguish a second "bump" above where the cooler will be. It's often a different color than the main shroud. If you can, and you can see the bolts that hold it down (there are several), that shroud can be removed to expose the top of the cooler. I have no idea how hard or easy this would be to do with the engine in the car, or with the FI bolted to the engine. I expect it would NOT be easy. Cleaning the cooler (and the cylinders) is something that requires the FI to be removed, and that fan cooling shroud removed. This is no big deal with carbs or CIS, but with MFI...

Posted by: GTeener Jul 17 2006, 02:57 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 17 2006, 01:52 PM)

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 17 2006, 03:13 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 17 2006, 01:57 PM)

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 17 2006, 01:52 PM)

First thing, not yet discussed at all: how are you checking your oil temp? If you're going by the gauge on the dash, has that ever been checked for accuracy? PA Speedo could do this for you.

Brad installed external oil pressure and temp gauges in the center console back when he was working at HPH. The pressure sender was just replaced by Tony at Heyer Performance.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 17 2006, 04:18 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 17 2006, 02:13 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 17 2006, 01:57 PM)

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 17 2006, 01:52 PM)

First thing, not yet discussed at all: how are you checking your oil temp? If you're going by the gauge on the dash, has that ever been checked for accuracy? PA Speedo could do this for you.

Brad installed external oil pressure and temp gauges in the center console back when he was working at HPH. The pressure sender was just replaced by Tony at Heyer Performance.

All due respect to Brad, while I'm sure he installed the right parts, there's no telling what the calibration of those parts are. What are your oil temps normally? Say, for a typical commute from PA to San Jose? Do you fly down 280, or crawl along on 101? What's the highest temp you remember seeing during your commute?

Posted by: brer Jul 17 2006, 11:15 PM

You might need this.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.ahnendorp.com/27.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dporsche%2B914%2Bteile%2B.de%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN


click on PORSCHE-2

Posted by: pete-stevers Jul 17 2006, 11:24 PM

hey sunshine!
are you opposed to the cented front mount cooler?
you needn't make it as bulky as mine....
but running cooper lines along th e body helps disapate as well....
i used refrigeration grade copper, welded with silver soder....
my lines get fairly
warm but never to hot to touch.....
but up here it doesnt get as hot as you lucky californians.....
take care
Steve

Posted by: brant Jul 17 2006, 11:28 PM

QUOTE(pete-stevers @ Jul 17 2006, 11:24 PM)

Posted by: Marv's3.6six Jul 17 2006, 11:46 PM

Back to the original question..........
Doesnt Jim Lamonica's 914-6 have behind the foglight grill oil coolers for his 3.6? That is a very saweet looking install, someones gotta have pics!?! So cal contingent?

Posted by: agrump Jul 18 2006, 06:26 AM

I thought I would throw in my two cents, here is the installation I'm working on that uses two small coolers. I wanted to keep as much usable trunk space as possible. I'm using 90 degree fittings coming out of the coolers and everything fits under the tire cover which is raised due to the DPD AC condensor. I'm going to build ducting that wraps around the spare tire and exits out of the side of the fenders.

I am running the oil lines on the drivers side because the AC lines are on the other side. I did have a rear mounted cooler and fan but it didn't provide enough cooling.

Posted by: McMark Jul 18 2006, 10:03 AM

Dean, I'm anxious to see your results. I applaud your creativity.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Jul 18 2006, 10:15 AM

gjvytjm


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 10:22 AM

Thanks for chiming in Dean. Your design looks interesting. Can we see more pictures? Like what does it look like from the front of the car?

I only have a 2.2S engine so it shouldn't be getting as hot as 3Ltr. engine.

I like how you are preserving the front trunk space.

I really want to do something that cools efficiently, the least invasive and the most low-profile/elegant.

I've been thinking more about the spare tire preservation requirement and it has been brought to my attention by a co-worker that my full-spare only matches the front tires of my car. I have 205s in the front and 225s in the back. So my concern for its preservation are somewhat flawed. Plus I don't have a jack or lug wrench for the tires either...

So I'm back to focusing on the front cooler designs

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 10:28 AM

QUOTE(pete-stevers @ Jul 17 2006, 10:24 PM)

hey sunshine!
are you opposed to the cented front mount cooler?
you needn't make it as bulky as mine....
but running cooper lines along th e body helps disapate as well....
i used refrigeration grade copper, welded with silver soder....
my lines get fairly
warm but never to hot to touch.....
but up here it doesnt get as hot as you lucky californians.....
take care
Steve

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 10:44 AM

BTW- I drove G TEENER to work today.

By the time I arrived at the office, the temp was registering 220. Drive time 7:30 am PST, temp approximately 75 F.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 18 2006, 12:23 PM

QUOTE(Marv's3.6six @ Jul 17 2006, 10:46 PM)

Posted by: brant Jul 18 2006, 12:38 PM

Gwen,

maybe just bite the bullet and go with the proven GT pieces?
(you said you were back to thinking about frontal coolers)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 18 2006, 12:39 PM

and, as i posted, you can use a vertical mount space saver.... so.. its all good

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 01:02 PM

QUOTE(brant @ Jul 18 2006, 11:38 AM)

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 18 2006, 01:10 PM

You can vent any front mounted cooler into the wheel wells. You don't really even need any ducting.

Posted by: McMark Jul 18 2006, 01:11 PM

205 vs 225 is irrelevant because that is the width of the tire not the height. As long as you have a 205 or smaller spare it will work. Plus a spare just need to get you to a tire shop, so it's okay if it's not a perfect replacement. A jack and a wrench aren't a big deal because if someone stops to help it's likely they'll be able to use the pieces from their car (regardless of make). Although, a wrench wouldn't be a bad addition to your car. I feel the extra air flow under the car isn't an issue except in a fast car on a big track. But I'm sure there are some people with real world experience.

Posted by: brant Jul 18 2006, 01:12 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 18 2006, 01:02 PM)

QUOTE(brant @ Jul 18 2006, 11:38 AM)

Gwen,

maybe just bite the bullet and go with the proven GT pieces?
(you said you were back to thinking about frontal coolers)

OK, so here's another issue that was brought to my attention with the GT design.... How noticeable is the lift created by the hot air venting out under the car?

The foglight design vents in to the wheel wells, so no lift.

And no, I don't want a vent cut in to my front hood

Posted by: maf914 Jul 18 2006, 01:35 PM

There has been a lot of talk about the air vented through the front trung floor creating lift, but I wonder if the effect is really significant relative to a stock car. On a stock car with no front inlet where does the air that strikes the front bumper go. The front bumper is sort of bow-like and most of the air probably goes under the car. Unless you have an agressive front spoiler/air dam. Cut an opening, force the air through a cooler, vent it through the floor, where does it go? Under the car. I just don't think there is a big difference.

Now an exhaust through the top of the hood is another matter, and I think that may be beneficial from an aero standpoint.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 01:44 PM

Esthetically, the top of the hood exit duct doesn't appeal to me. My car isn't a hard-core track car. It gets tracked only recreationally

Most of my driving is low altitude street flying ( ).

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 01:46 PM

QUOTE(lapuwali @ Jul 18 2006, 12:10 PM)

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 18 2006, 02:04 PM

Different strokes for different folks. Some people vent it down, some people out the side, some people up. Some people vent, others don't.

Some people put them in back under the trunk, too.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 18 2006, 02:15 PM

rofl james....

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 03:39 PM

decisions, decisions, money, money

I'd like the fog light design to work. I think it fits my form and function desires. I'm hesitant to finance the R&D and muck up my car if it fails.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 18 2006, 03:43 PM

not really mucking up. i have faith

i can prolly get you Jim L's number through a mutual friend, he is using fog light coolers to keep his 3.6 cool....

Posted by: GTeener Jul 18 2006, 03:45 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 18 2006, 02:43 PM)

Posted by: agrump Jul 19 2006, 12:08 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 18 2006, 08:22 AM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 12:12 PM

QUOTE(agrump @ Jul 19 2006, 11:08 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 18 2006, 08:22 AM)

Thanks for chiming in Dean. Your design looks interesting. Can we see more pictures? Like what does it look like from the front of the car?

I'm still hacking away at it. The holes I made in the front are pretty small, I may have to open them up but I wanted to try it out first. I have more pics at http://www.marinerc.net/914/front_mounted_oil_coolers.htm

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 12:14 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 18 2006, 09:44 AM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 19 2006, 12:24 PM

Did it used to run this hot? Or is it just after you got it tuned that it runs hotter? The state of tune of the engine can have a large impact on the oil temps.

Posted by: brant Jul 19 2006, 12:41 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 19 2006, 12:24 PM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 12:54 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 19 2006, 11:24 AM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 12:56 PM

QUOTE(brant @ Jul 19 2006, 11:41 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 19 2006, 12:24 PM)

Did it used to run this hot? Or is it just after you got it tuned that it runs hotter? The state of tune of the engine can have a large impact on the oil temps.

the timing a bit too.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 19 2006, 01:23 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 19 2006, 11:54 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 19 2006, 11:24 AM)

Did it used to run this hot? Or is it just after you got it tuned that it runs hotter? The state of tune of the engine can have a large impact on the oil temps.

It used to run pretty consistently at 220 or lower. What would have happened during the tune-up to change the temp readings?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 01:28 PM

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 19 2006, 12:23 PM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 19 2006, 11:54 AM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 19 2006, 11:24 AM)

Did it used to run this hot? Or is it just after you got it tuned that it runs hotter? The state of tune of the engine can have a large impact on the oil temps.

It used to run pretty consistently at 220 or lower. What would have happened during the tune-up to change the temp readings?

Timing. The Cap'n

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 19 2006, 01:31 PM

your oil temps will drop *SOME* if timed right


what is enough drop in temp? only you can decide

Posted by: brant Jul 19 2006, 02:03 PM

Timing. The Cap'n
[/quote]

So are you now telling me that if I get my throttle bodies rebuilt and the timing to stay at a fixed idle my cooling problems will be solved?
[/quote]


Gwen,

timing affects a lot more than idle.
I really don't know MFI at all.. (wish I did)

but I'd bet that MFI has capacity to adjust idle independent of timing.
perhaps your throttle shafts prevent you from getting a steady idle...

but you should still be able to retard your timing and then readjust your idle independently.

brant

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 02:07 PM

It has been advised that my car's oil temp should be between 180-220.

Posted by: markb Jul 19 2006, 02:28 PM

Gwen, why not put the spare in the rear trunk?

Posted by: dbu356 Jul 19 2006, 02:49 PM

I've have this set-up on my 3.0. The car was my daily driver. Never runs hot.
Fog light/horn grills mount over the coolers. Plumbing's not purdy...but it works. Vents out through the wheel wells.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 03:48 PM

QUOTE(markb @ Jul 19 2006, 01:28 PM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 19 2006, 03:50 PM

QUOTE(dbu356 @ Jul 19 2006, 01:49 PM)

Posted by: markb Jul 19 2006, 04:04 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 19 2006, 02:48 PM)

QUOTE(markb @ Jul 19 2006, 01:28 PM)

Gwen, why not put the spare in the rear trunk?

Then the targa top won't fit in the rear trunk.

Posted by: dbu356 Jul 19 2006, 04:37 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 19 2006, 02:50 PM)

QUOTE(dbu356 @ Jul 19 2006, 01:49 PM)

I've have this set-up on my 3.0. The car was my daily driver. Never runs hot.
Fog light/horn grills mount over the coolers. Plumbing's not purdy...but it works. Vents out through the wheel wells.

interesting...what's the inside of the front trunk look like? And where to the lines run to get to the engine? Where did your horns go?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 20 2006, 11:03 AM

Well I have good news and bad news...

The bad news is that I can't go to this year's RRC party in the desert

The good news is that this gives me more time to properly sort out this oil cooler installation project

BTW-I'm back to wanting to do the fog light design.

McMark? Up for the challenge? I liked your offer. Can I trust your abilities?

Posted by: brant Jul 20 2006, 11:11 AM

We will miss you Gwen,
but it will be interesting to see the project.

brant

Posted by: GTeener Jul 20 2006, 11:28 AM

QUOTE(brant @ Jul 20 2006, 10:11 AM)

Posted by: Series9 Jul 20 2006, 11:34 AM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 20 2006, 11:03 AM)

Posted by: neo914-6 Jul 20 2006, 11:56 AM

QUOTE(Series9 @ Jul 20 2006, 10:34 AM)

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 20 2006, 11:03 AM)

McMark? Up for the challenge? I liked your offer. Can I trust your abilities?

Gwen,

If you can get Mark to take on the project, I strongly suggest you do so. You will be happy with his work.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 20 2006, 12:42 PM

You up for the fog light cooling challenge McMark?

If so, what's your schedule like?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 20 2006, 12:52 PM

hooray innovation!

Posted by: McMark Jul 20 2006, 01:48 PM

My schedule is crazy. I'll have to PM you Gwen. I need to look at my calendar. Maybe Septemberish. I'll pm you and give you a real date.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 20 2006, 02:03 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 20 2006, 12:48 PM)

My schedule is crazy. I'll have to PM you Gwen. I need to look at my calendar. Maybe Septemberish. I'll pm you and give you a real date.

Posted by: Terrance Jul 20 2006, 04:00 PM

Posted by: brant Jul 20 2006, 04:17 PM

Terrance,

where are you going to exit the air?
any duct work planned?

brant

Posted by: Terrance Jul 20 2006, 04:41 PM

It's going straight out through the front of the wheel well. Probably use thin gauge aluminum for that. I used some foam tape to form a good tight seal between the cooler and the front of the car.

Posted by: trekkor Jul 20 2006, 05:04 PM

Gwen, don't know if you saw my latest development.

I was out in the hills today busting it up and the oil temps stayed below 200°
It was near 100° in Napa today...hideous.

Will the report from Sear tomorrow night mean anything to you?
My goal is 220° or lower. Forecast in Sonoma is near 100° Arrrghh!!


KT


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 20 2006, 05:56 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Jul 20 2006, 04:04 PM)

Gwen, don't know if you saw my latest development.

I was out in the hills today busting it up and the oil temps stayed below 200°
It was near 100° in Napa today...hideous.

Will the report from Sear tomorrow night mean anything to you?
My goal is 220° or lower. Forecast in Sonoma is near 100° Arrrghh!!


KT

Posted by: trekkor Jul 20 2006, 11:33 PM

He has seen it. I'm the wrench


KT

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jul 23 2006, 12:19 AM

I was installing my Mocal cooler today in the front and I was wondering about water drainage. Since the cooler is inside the vehicle instead of outside, water will get in from washing and rain. The only thing I can think of is put some water in there and drill holes in the low spots.....What did you guys do?

Posted by: bam914 Jul 23 2006, 08:34 PM

Has anyone mounted a cooler where the fresh air vent is? It is a good low pressure area.

Posted by: McMark Jul 23 2006, 08:54 PM

High pressure area, but it's still a decent location. I don't know anyone who's done it, but for a smaller engine, its a possibility. the issue becomes getting rid of the hot air.

Posted by: brant Jul 23 2006, 08:59 PM

QUOTE(bam914 @ Jul 23 2006, 08:34 PM)

Posted by: lapuwali Jul 23 2006, 09:01 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 23 2006, 07:54 PM)

Posted by: Mountain914 Jul 23 2006, 10:29 PM

This with a factory 6 oil cooler keeps it plenty cool (tested in AZ heat!). Thermostatic fan kicks it on when necessary. Not my doing, I miss my wipers.

Posted by: brant Jul 24 2006, 08:51 AM

Lee,

I forgot you had your cooler there.
so that is 3of them done that way in colorado!

Lee, why don't you come out the moab RRC06?
it would be great to see you again, and a nice reasonable objective to get the yellow car back on the road!

brant

Posted by: GTeener Jul 24 2006, 10:12 AM

QUOTE(Mountain914 @ Jul 23 2006, 09:29 PM)

This with a factory 6 oil cooler keeps it plenty cool (tested in AZ heat!). Thermostatic fan kicks it on when necessary. Not my doing, I miss my wipers.

Posted by: gregrobbins Jul 24 2006, 10:49 AM

QUOTE(bam914 @ Jul 23 2006, 07:34 PM)

Posted by: Mueller Jul 24 2006, 11:08 AM

Gwen,

no pictures, but Ed C. in San Antonio(?) TX has an oil cooler behind the fog light grills on each side. It works on his street/auto-x/DE car in HOT Texas contrary to the nay-sayers that "think" it won't work

Having said that, I'm a fan of the GT oil-cooling method, it's proven to work and looks the best..........

Posted by: GTeener Jul 24 2006, 11:41 AM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 24 2006, 10:08 AM)

Posted by: Mountain914 Jul 25 2006, 09:12 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 24 2006, 10:12 AM)

QUOTE(Mountain914 @ Jul 23 2006, 09:29 PM)

This with a factory 6 oil cooler keeps it plenty cool (tested in AZ heat!). Thermostatic fan kicks it on when necessary. Not my doing, I miss my wipers.

This is an interesting placement.

Can a cooler be mounted there without losing the wipers?

I'd get a GT valence, un-block the plug-holes and wouldn't need to cut much of the chassis...

Posted by: Mueller Jul 25 2006, 09:24 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 24 2006, 10:41 AM)

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 24 2006, 10:08 AM)

Having said that, I'm a fan of the GT oil-cooling method, it's proven to work and looks the best..........

As long as you don't want to keep your full-size (205/50 15) spare tire and be able to stash you targa top in the back trunk.

Posted by: brant Jul 25 2006, 09:27 PM

[/quote]
and Brant, Free time is my whole issue right now, I have become a major workaholic, spend all the rest of the time trying to keep the girlfriend happy (gardening, not cars are her thing)... but I lurk, so there is hope. September is out, though <sorry>
[/quote]


dang...
we will miss you.

best of luck
brant

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 25 2006, 09:37 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 24 2006, 10:41 AM)

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 24 2006, 10:08 AM)

Having said that, I'm a fan of the GT oil-cooling method, it's proven to work and looks the best..........

As long as you don't want to keep your full-size (205/50 15) spare tire and be able to stash you targa top in the back trunk.

Posted by: dgw Jul 25 2006, 11:08 PM

heres mine.

Note, the car has a 3.0, the former owner says he never had heat problems, I've only driven it twice, although on the hottest two days in the history of the Santa Cruz mountains.

It does seem very exposed thought, that worries me.


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Posted by: Mountain914 Jul 26 2006, 12:01 PM

QUOTE(dgw @ Jul 25 2006, 11:08 PM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 26 2006, 12:46 PM

QUOTE(dgw @ Jul 25 2006, 10:08 PM)

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jul 26 2006, 06:23 PM

Good timing on this thread, I am just wraping mine up. For a 3.6, I did what I feel will yield the best cooling since it is the only cooler this motor gets.

I moved the cooler back a ways so the opening in the front of the car would not have to be enlarged to match the cooler grid. I tried to avoid mounting it too far forward.. There will be plenty of inlet air to the front of the cooler and the spare tire will still fit. (space saver). There is plenty of room to add fans if needed behind the cooler but I am trying to avoid them since they block air through the cooler by 20-30% when they are not running.

-

-

-

-

-

-
The cooler flange is bolted at the top and the bottom sits freely in a "U" channel that is rubber lined. This allows the body to flex without twisting the cooler

Posted by: GTeener Jul 26 2006, 06:32 PM

QUOTE(PRS914-6 @ Jul 26 2006, 05:23 PM)

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jul 26 2006, 06:35 PM

Everything in front of the cooler is a pressure zone and is sealed right to left and up and down around the cooler so no air can bypass around the cooler. The air will exit through the cooler and out the bottom of the trunk. Yes, there will be holes in the bottom of the trunk to let the air out, they are just not shown. It's not a track or race car and won't have an air dam so I am not worried about lift at all. The amount of air and resulting lift that you can push through the actual "net" air opening in a cooler would be insignificant for a street car. (in my opinion)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 26 2006, 07:03 PM

QUOTE(PRS914-6 @ Jul 26 2006, 05:35 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Jul 27 2006, 01:03 AM

I was talking to Gary from G/D Racing. He has a fantastic 935 clone...600hp+.

It has a front cooler opening that I can can nearly crawl through
The air dumps out under the car and it's a non-issue. No lift.


KT

Posted by: GTeener Jul 27 2006, 11:21 AM

I know a lot of you are fans of Mocal and Fluidyne coolers, but I've been told that RX7 coolers work just as well. Anyone have experience with using an RX7 cooler setup?

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jul 27 2006, 11:37 AM

I researched the coolers extensively. The Mazda coolers are apparently VERY good. If you can get a Mazda Comp cooler (not being made right now) you would have the best. I could not get a big enough one out of an RX-7 to suit my needs and bought the big Mocal but if I had a 3.2 I would just get one from a Mazda dismantler. with a known engine that had not blown.

Posted by: xitspd Jul 27 2006, 11:39 AM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 27 2006, 10:21 AM)

Posted by: GTeener Jul 27 2006, 11:47 AM

thanks for the confirmation guys.

Where can I get a space-saver spare?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 27 2006, 12:01 PM

QUOTE(GTeener @ Jul 27 2006, 10:47 AM)

thanks for the confirmation guys.

Where can I get a space-saver spare?

Posted by: McMark Jul 27 2006, 12:11 PM

Are we talking about the collapsible spare that need to be inflated on the side of the road before use? Or do I have that wrong?

Posted by: GTeener Jul 27 2006, 12:35 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 27 2006, 11:11 AM)

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jul 27 2006, 12:37 PM

Another note on the Mazda. They are a double pass cooler meaning that there is a divider in the middle and the oil goes in and out the same side. The oil goes through the bottom half and returns on the top half (or vice-versa) so the oil flow capacity is restricted to half the cross section of the cooler.

The big Mocal goes in one side out the other side and if I was looking for a large volume cooler, I would go the Mocal route since the oil can flow the entire cross section of the cooler and not just half. It only applies to high volume situations though.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 27 2006, 12:45 PM

QUOTE(PRS914-6 @ Jul 27 2006, 11:37 AM)

Posted by: mikelsr Jul 27 2006, 02:37 PM

I am glad that this thread is still going. I bought a 2.7 /6 a month ago and found that it is running hot in this weather. I figure it is running about 250 degrees by looking at where my temp gauge is at and the markings on the temp gauge template for the 911 (I can't remember who posted it earlier this week or last week). I ordered a new oil pressure and temp gauges and sending units to get a better handle on where things are at.

I will be using this car at AXs and DEs. I am not too worried on the AX course but I am very concerned about the DEs. I am supposed to go to Gingerman in MI on the 5th and 6th but I think I am going to cancel because of this heat problem. Even if I could get the parts in tomorrow I won't have time to get things engineered and installed.

This has been a very good thread and I will read it again before I decide on what I need to do.

Thanks,
Mike

Posted by: JOHNMAN Jul 27 2006, 02:57 PM

Wow Paul, that looks great. I really like the shape of the ductwork. It seems so familiar....

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?automodule=blog&req=attach&id=5993

Which cooler are you going to run?

I can't even get my car over 180 degrees in 95+ degree heat this summer.... MOCAL rocks.

Posted by: GTeener Jul 27 2006, 03:33 PM

QUOTE(JOHNMAN @ Jul 27 2006, 01:57 PM)

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jul 27 2006, 03:52 PM

John, I used a Mocal PC-10 crossflow

Posted by: JOHNMAN Jul 27 2006, 11:30 PM

I looked for pics of the front, and didn't see much. I'll have to quit driving it and get some pics. It is intoxicating. The car looks like a stock 914 with 5-lug cookie cutters on it. The power is incredible. It feels much like the track car (quicker than my turbo).

I did find a very dusty one taken about a month ago. I kept an early chrome bumper on the front. I notched out a stock valence quasi-GT style. It definately gets enough airflow during these scorching Kansas City days that we have been getting. Solid 180 degrees and nothing more. (I checked it with a non-contact I/R temp probe from work)





Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: JOHNMAN Jul 27 2006, 11:43 PM

My cooler is a MOCAL 60 row 115 matrix cooler. My lines run inside the heater tubes up to the front, then they duck through the box section ala-GT style and into the front trunk.

The pressure (return) line runs up the passenger side, and the suction line (engine feed) runs back down the drivers side.

Since only one line is on each side, the lump is minimal and is not really noticable. Besides, who has time to look under carpeting when the scenery is moving by so rapidly?

I like how it turned out and would do it again.

Oh yeah, there is the tub up on the rotissorie............

Posted by: GTeener May 18 2007, 07:54 PM

I finally did it. Well actually, I finally had it done by Leamon Stansell (Heeltoe914).

So far she's running cool and no cutting into my pretty re-chromed front bumper


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener May 18 2007, 08:19 PM

More pix of what was done.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener May 18 2007, 08:21 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: GTeener May 18 2007, 08:52 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Justinp71 May 19 2007, 12:02 AM

Cool, I'm trying to install one this weekend. The PO had run AN-10 ss lines down the car, but I'm told that I have to run AN-12 for the 6-cylinder otherwise I could dry up my motor.

Where did you get you oil lines from and fittings from?

Btw I'll probably be selling a complete AN-10 oil cooler setup for anyone that wants for a 4-cyl (including earl 5x12 oil cooler).

Edit: do you have an air hole to go out of your front trunk?

Posted by: Heeltoe914 May 19 2007, 05:55 PM

Thanks Gwen for sharing the Pic, Its to bad I didn't take Pic of the finished product. When I work on cars from afar I like to keep the owner up to date on parts and work going on with pictures.
Just some note the lines up the passenger side fender well got a cover over it to protect the lines from objects that can come from the sticky tires.
All lines where clamped to prevent movement. All grommets added to sharp areas.
The front cooler allows a space saver tire and the OEM truck board to cover up everything.
The hot air will exit In front of the front tires, which also works as cooling air for the big 4 piston stoppers we added.
Thanks again to Patrick Motorsports again for all the high-end bits and some custom feb, work.
How do you like the new gears G?

Posted by: Justinp71 May 19 2007, 06:07 PM

What Kind of hose is that? is it more than the stainless braided?

Is that an all AN-12 setup?

Posted by: East coaster May 19 2007, 08:20 PM

Here's mine and here the story behind the pic:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=46489&hl=oil%20cooler

It works extermely well for my 3.6. It has 3 internal muffin fans but I've never had the need to use them even in 90+ outside air temps.

Posted by: Heeltoe914 May 19 2007, 08:27 PM

Yes its all 12an except the feed from tank to cooler. This is cooling for a2.2 ( S ) MFI motor. The line can be gotten at any Boat racing supply CO. Press on and go.

Posted by: GTeener May 19 2007, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(Heeltoe914 @ May 19 2007, 04:55 PM)

Posted by: stugray Apr 27 2013, 09:01 PM

I wanted to ressurect this thread because I am considering doing a front oil cooler and have a few ideas that I was considering.
It is for a dedicated 4-cyl race car that has no fuel tank and a fuel cell where the spare would go. This would make it really difficult to do the large duct in the front trunk style. I would like to keep the look of a stock bumper.

Oil cooler option 1 (dual coolers below headlights):
Cut out the front panel behind the fog lights below the headlight bucket, cut out BOTTOM of headlight bucket only. This gives a ~4" X 8" opening on each side.
Install one small cooler in the bottom of each bucket and vent out the wheel well (Brant's method but leaves the headlights operational if desired).

Oil cooler option 2 (single cooler below windshield with intake through fog lamp holes):
Cut out the front panel behind the fog lights below the headlight bucket, Do NOT cut headlight bucket. This gives a ~4" X 8" opening on each side.
Install one large cooler below the windshield where the fuel tank used to be and vent out the vent holes in front of the windshield.

I would build a box around the area under the headlight and run a 5" duct through the trunk wall into a box that houses the oil cooler.

I think that would be like a wind tunnel through there when moving, but a fan right at the cooler would help when not moving.

My only thing that makes me hesitate about that is that the area in front of the windshield probably goes from high pressure to low pressure depending on speed, but not sure. (Positive pressure there would be bad as it would stall the airflow).

Stu

Posted by: Cairo94507 Apr 28 2013, 07:12 AM

I am glad to see this thread and we are still looking for cooler options for my car. I am hoping that pretty soon Scotty will be sticking the engine in so we can make sure everything fits properly and figure out the cooler set-up.

Posted by: pcar916 Apr 28 2013, 07:33 AM

QUOTE(stugray @ Apr 27 2013, 10:01 PM)

Posted by: stugray Apr 28 2013, 03:50 PM

"The lowest pressure on the hood is right behind the bumper"

Then in theory you could intake air thru the foglamp hole up through an oil cooler and vent out the rear of the headlight cover?
Maybe cut a 1" slot off the back of the HL cover?

You would get some serious air flow through there....

Stu

Posted by: shoguneagle May 2 2013, 06:05 PM

This is still one of the best threads regarding the different aspects of external oil coolers and their installation. It shows the various considerations, limitations, benefits, insight, and reasons why people do their various installations. It gives excellent insight in the various items that influence the installations.

There are some great engineering and practical designs, ideas, and applications showing that the 914er is indeed an adaptive and thinking individual; one who is willing to question and adaptive and they determine their needs and solve the situational needs.

I think this thread should be placed in the "Classifies".

My thoughts,
Steve Hurt

Posted by: stugray Jul 1 2013, 11:04 PM

Here are a few more ideas.

here is a pic of the foglamp hole and the bottom of the headlight bucket (the funnel) cut out:



While trying to find the perfect sized oil cooler to fit in the hole, I stuck a stock oil cooler in there and it is almost the same size as the foglamp hole. (turn it 90 degrees clockwise from the picture)
I could make it fit perfectly but I would have to cut parts from the support member that runs beneath the headlight bucket.

Is there any compelling reason that I should NOT use two stock coolers, one on either side?
I would just make two brackets for the pipe fittings to come in the back, and the coolers could bolt on with the stock gaskets.
I would of course vent out the rear of the fender..

Another option is two of these:


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-13309

it is the perfect size (~5 in. X 8 in.) but looks pretty cheap.
Maybe if I beefed it up some?

Anyone know of other coolers that would fit in that hole?
Some of the other racers say that coolers from Jaguars (found at a pick U part) fit pretty well and can be found for about $20.

Stu

Posted by: brant Jul 1 2013, 11:19 PM

The stock coolers seal with the stock rubber gaskets and would be difficult to get a good seal with....

coolers with welded on fittings would offer more certainty.

the fluidyne stuff is really nice and comes in a single pass or double pass.

used just scares me. You don't know how the motor your taking it from died. even with ultrasonic cleaning there are plenty of real life examples where a piece of schrapnel discarges later and possibly takes out a brand new motor. Not worth risking a new pricey motor for 100$ savings.

a lot of guys will throw away their coolers after a motor grenades (or sell them on ebay) and only use new coolers. Especially in the 911 world, where motors get even more $$$

Posted by: stugray Jul 2 2013, 09:46 AM

Thanks Brant,

Posted by: brant Jul 2 2013, 10:04 AM

I'm going to have to look further
I don't remember the part numbers and the ones listed don't look quite right

http://www.fluidyne.com/oil-cooler_high-performance_all-pro-58mm-ot.html

I think the deraile will be less efficient
but still likely good enough
It would be worth a try

Posted by: stugray Aug 22 2013, 06:01 PM

So I finally got the coolers for the fog light bucket upgrade.

They are one of the smallest Setrab coolers you can get.
8.25" wide X 5.75" tall
When I first pulled them out of the box, I was disappointed by how small they are, but they are the largest that can fit under the headlight buckets.



Those are 12AN fittings.

Here is a pic of one in the hole from the top:



And from the front:


I will do custom contoured intakes from the square holes in the bumper.
Venting will be out the rear into the wheel well.

They seem too small at first, but I did some quick calcs:
Stock oil cooler = 15.75 square inches of cooler cross section
2X setrab coolers = 27.5 +27.5 = 55 square inches of cross section

I will also be leaving the stock cooler in for now so by adding these coolers I will have a total of 70.75 square inches.
So I will be increasing cross section by a factor of 4.5!

I understand that the fronts wont help at all unless the car is moving unless I incorporate fans. I will consider that.

I considered smaller hose, but in the overall plan the difference between 10AN & 12AN is really not that much of a percentage of the whole project (even considering the fittings).
I'll run the 12AN Nylon braided hose all the way front to back in the passenger side heater duct.

Stu

Posted by: stugray Sep 13 2013, 09:36 PM

I changed my mind on the orientation.
I rotated them so the fittings point horizontally (at each other).

Then I made bullet-proof brackets to hold them at a slight rear-tilt angle.
I made frames out of 1/2"X1/2" aluminum angle.
One frame attaches to the cooler, the other screws into the bumper hole.

Now I am fabbing the vents that will connect the two frames.

Driver side front:


Drivers side top:


Pass side front:


Pass side top:


The vents will get built with balsa wood and then covered in carbon fiber for a custom fit.
I am taking a bit of a gamble making the vents with a temporary bumper.
The "new" FG bumper better have the same holes.....

Posted by: boxsterfan Nov 5 2013, 06:23 PM

I just want to say that this is a fantastic thread. Someday when I do a complete teardown on my car, I would love to put oil coolers behind the fog light grills.

Posted by: stugray Jan 13 2014, 07:02 PM

Here are some pics of my final installation.

First is where the hoses come up through the heater tubes.
I made some custom grommets that you can install after the hoses are routed:




The single grommet install:


View of pass side:


View showing cooler under headlight bucket (headlights would still fit):


Driver's side:


Overall install (you cant see the line that runs across in front of the fuel cell in this pic):


Yes I chose to run them in series to guarantee equal flow.

I forgot to get pics of the exit hole. The coolers have ducts that exit through the wheel wells.

Posted by: stugray Jan 14 2014, 05:24 PM

Here is a view of the fenderwell vents without the coolers.
From the front:


From the wheel well:


I put expanded metal on the inside and a flexible duct from the cooler.
I'll try to get pics of the final, but the wheel is on now.

Posted by: effutuo101 Jan 14 2014, 05:28 PM

nice work!

Posted by: boxsterfan Jan 15 2014, 10:18 AM

I think it looks great. How does it perform in its cooling job?

Posted by: stugray Jan 15 2014, 10:35 AM

Posted by: Randal Jan 15 2014, 10:55 AM

QUOTE(stugray @ Jan 13 2014, 05:02 PM)

Here are some pics of my final installation.

First is where the hoses come up through the heater tubes.
I made some custom grommets that you can install after the hoses are routed:




The single grommet install:


View of pass side:


View showing cooler under headlight bucket (headlights would still fit):


Driver's side:


Overall install (you cant see the line that runs across in front of the fuel cell in this pic):


Yes I chose to run them in series to guarantee equal flow.

I forgot to get pics of the exit hole. The coolers have ducts that exit through the wheel wells.

Posted by: stugray Jan 15 2014, 11:50 AM

Posted by: JmuRiz Jan 15 2014, 11:59 AM

Very cool, I'll be interested to hear if you headlights are still able to work and how well it cools...when you road test it.

Posted by: stugray Jan 15 2014, 12:06 PM

Posted by: boxsterfan Jan 15 2014, 12:08 PM

According to previous posts in this thread and his measurements, the headlights should work. I don't see anything blocking their operation (including if the headlight surrounds were attached).

Posted by: Randal Jan 15 2014, 01:38 PM

QUOTE(stugray @ Jan 15 2014, 09:50 AM)

QUOTE

FYI the braided black line will fail if it gets nicked and starts to unravel.

That braided black line has layers:
Outside - Aramid fiber (cannot cut it with scissors)
2nd layer - Rubber
3rd layer - Stainless steel braid
Inside - rubber



http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/110942/10002/-1

I takes extreme effort to cut that stuff with a cutoff wheel or a bandsaw. So essentially it is steel braided line with 2 extra external layers.

Posted by: stugray Jan 15 2014, 01:45 PM

Posted by: Randal Jan 15 2014, 01:54 PM

QUOTE(stugray @ Jan 15 2014, 11:45 AM)

Posted by: stugray Jan 15 2014, 01:57 PM

But you realize that this hose HAS a braided SS layer inside it?

So the way I see it is that this is Braided SS hose with 2 extra layers to protect it.
Still confused.

Posted by: Randal Jan 15 2014, 02:15 PM

QUOTE(stugray @ Jan 15 2014, 11:57 AM)

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 15 2014, 02:22 PM

QUOTE(Randal @ Jan 15 2014, 03:15 PM)

QUOTE(stugray @ Jan 15 2014, 11:57 AM)

But you realize that this hose HAS a braided SS layer inside it?

So the way I see it is that this is Braided SS hose with 2 extra layers to protect it.
Still confused.

Think I also have some of the original black braided line and will check this for the under SS layer as you describe it.

Posted by: stugray Jan 15 2014, 02:26 PM

I looked again and Jegs DOES have a couple of hoses that are more expensive than what I picked. The Earl's sounds exactly like this hose but is $12/ft. and Aeroquip makes a StartLite, that sounds very similar but is close to $12/ft.

My brother originally used SS braided hoses in his racecar, but we got sick of them because the tiniest fray was sharp as hell and after working on the car our hands looked like we had been thrown in a briar patch ;-)

He switched to a hose very similar to mine, but when I bought mine I got what I determined was better than what he got. I guess we'll have to see how it goes. I cant afford to replace it before the next season.

The good news is that I have zero tight bends in the whole system and I support the hose anywhere it could rub on something.
I havent installed the tie-downs yet, but I'll be careful to make sure it cant move or rub on anything.

Posted by: damesandhotrods Jan 15 2014, 03:25 PM

If your stainless steel hose has any nicks or frays, it is remove and replace. The hose is now garbage, the end.

Posted by: boxsterfan Jan 15 2014, 03:52 PM

QUOTE(damesandhotrods @ Jan 15 2014, 01:25 PM)

Posted by: mikesmith Jan 15 2014, 04:14 PM

Normally you wrap stainless braided hoses to protect everything else; they are like vibrating knives if not properly secured...

The aramid wrapped hose is very tough, but more forgiving on the things around it. In neither case will losing a couple of strands in the braid cause a properly made hose to 'unravel' (but if you have something that's cutting the braid, chances are it's not going to stop at just one strand).

Posted by: Randal Jan 18 2014, 04:11 PM

QUOTE(Randal @ Jan 15 2014, 12:15 PM)

QUOTE(stugray @ Jan 15 2014, 11:57 AM)

But you realize that this hose HAS a braided SS layer inside it?

So the way I see it is that this is Braided SS hose with 2 extra layers to protect it.
Still confused.

Think I also have some of the original black braided line and will check this for the under SS layer as you describe it.

Posted by: pvollma Feb 12 2014, 11:01 AM

I just stumbled upon this thread, and thought I'd add my $0.02 worth. I ran a 914-4 in SCCA GT-3 back in the late 80's to early 90's, in Texas. Cooling was of course an issue, and our solution was to put a cooler in each front fender, with the turn signal lamps removed to duct cooling to them. I don't think I ever saw more than 210 degrees on the oil temp, even in 45-minute Nationals in August.