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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Did the 914 save Porsche ?
Posted by: johannes Jul 13 2006, 06:12 AM
I have read that Porsche was in a not so good financial situation in the early seventies...
I also read that 914 was the best sold Porsche ... as in Europe it has always been considered as a commercial fiasco ...
I also read that Porsche had very low margins on the 914 ...
Did the 914 save Porsche ? Do you know the real story ? 
By the way , what was the % of 914 sold in USA vs Europe and rest of the world ?
Posted by: Joe Sharp Jul 13 2006, 08:12 AM
No. VW of America saved Porsche.
Posted by: BMartin914 Jul 13 2006, 08:19 AM
I also read that 914 was the best sold Porsche
Hardly...
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 13 2006, 08:26 AM
No, it was "VW/PORCHE-AUDI"
I have read that the 914 for Porsche was a commerical success. The 911 was really expensive for a car in the early '70's and the sales of 114,000 914's was enough to keep cash poor Porsche afloat or in the Black with all the 917 racing expenses!
We had the falling US Dollar back then as the 914 went from $3500 in 70 to $7500 in 76. The 911 prices skyrocketed to then! So these were both fairly pricey cars.
Most of the guys I knew who came back from Vietnam with their GI $$$$ bought Muscle cars not 914's.
Posted by: Gustl Jul 13 2006, 08:27 AM
By the way , what was the % of 914 sold in USA vs Europe and rest of the world ?
in different litarature I've read similar things about that question
about 70% for the US market (not sure if Canada is included)
about 30% rest of the world (by far the most for the german market)
Gustl
Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 08:59 AM
I also read that 914 was the best sold Porsche
Hardly...
Actually, this is partly true. I believe that it was the most successful Porsche model up to that time. More 914s were sold than 356s, 912s, or 911s by 1976, even though the 911 had been sold for 12 years by that time, while the 914 had only been sold for 6. In terms of cars sold per year, the 914 was top dog until pretty recently. The Boxster may have outsold it by now.
It's certainly possible the car was never all that profitable, however. "Commercial disaster" can be defined in many ways.
Posted by: Joe Sharp Jul 13 2006, 09:34 AM
Check your stats Ben...
If VW of America (the parent company of Porsche of America) had not shoved the 914 down the thorat of Porsche of America the dealers in America would not have recived the boots the really were in need of.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe
Posted by: cooltimes Jul 13 2006, 09:38 AM
I have read that Porsche was in a not so good financial situation in the early seventies...
I also read that 914 was the best sold Porsche ... as in Europe it has always been considered as a commercial fiasco ...
I also read that Porsche had very low margins on the 914 ...
Did the 914 save Porsche ? Do you know the real story ?
By the way , what was the % of 914 sold in USA vs Europe and rest of the world ?
I doubt it but who knows. I bought a 914 in 1970. If they had been in need of money, the blitz of ads would have been seen. Only ad back then that I ever saw was in Esquire magazine while sitting in a marriage counselor waiting room.
I think there was about a dozen 914's sold in all of Tennessee during those years.
Porsche was owned by VW then anyhow. VW also bought Audi and the Audi may have been what helped them financially. As someone mentioned VW/Porsche Audi says it all.
This above is just an opinion of what I felt was happening back then since I was there and into the market for buying one of their products.
MikeCool
Jackson TN.
Posted by: mskala Jul 13 2006, 09:49 AM
I also read that 914 was the best sold Porsche
Hardly...
It is true, at the time the 914 was discontinued, it had sold more in its
7 years than the 911 (in 12 years), 912, and 356 (~13 years).
It was then surpassed in sales by of all things, the 924 in the early 80's.
Of course by now there's over 300000 911's.
Posted by: GWN7 Jul 13 2006, 09:58 AM
By the way , what was the % of 914 sold in USA vs Europe and rest of the world ?
in different litarature I've read similar things about that question
about 70% for the US market (not sure if Canada is included)
about 30% rest of the world (by far the most for the german market)
GustlI've heard or read it was 70% of sales to North America, but I'm not sure it was like that back in the 70's
Posted by: johannes Jul 13 2006, 10:02 AM
I also read that 914 was the best sold Porsche
Hardly...
Actually, this is partly true. I believe that it was the most successful Porsche model up to that time. More 914s were sold than 356s, 912s, or 911s by 1976, even though the 911 had been sold for 12 years by that time, while the 914 had only been sold for 6. In terms of cars sold per year, the 914 was top dog until pretty recently. The Boxster may have outsold it by now.
It's certainly possible the car was never all that profitable, however. "Commercial disaster" can be defined in many ways.
That's very funny ... In all the books you can read it was very unsuccessfull...
That may be true in Europe... For sure it was under VW's expectations ... did it sell more than the Karman Ghia ????
It's called unsuccess because, most european people find it ugly and it was only produced 6 years ...
In my opinion ( first of all the 914 is far from ugly
) ... It was built 6 years not because of unsuccess, but because :1 Margin was not as expected ... (almost no part was produced by Porsche)
2 Porsche staff wanted to replace aircoold by watercooled because of noise and pollution issues. At this time they wanted to stop the 911 and replace it with 928.
Their target was to have the 928 and a "small 928" ... the 924... both watercooled.
Posted by: Scott Carlberg Jul 13 2006, 10:03 AM
Check your stats Ben...
If VW of America (the parent company of Porsche of America) had not shoved the 914 down the thorat of Porsche of America the dealers in America would not have recived the boots the really were in need of.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe
VW is NOT the parent company of Porsche.
Porsche is AND always has been a Family-owned business.
The heads of the two companies, VW & Porsche, were at one time related (and still might be) but VW has NEVER been the parent company of Porsche.
The VW/Porsche-Audi dealerships were just that, 'just' dealerships.
VW is the parent company to Audi, Seat, Bentley, Lamborghini etc, but not Porsche.
Posted by: BMartin914 Jul 13 2006, 10:31 AM
Check your stats Ben...
If VW of America (the parent company of Porsche of America) had not shoved the 914 down the thorat of Porsche of America the dealers in America would not have recived the boots the really were in need of.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe
The reason for my statement is that I was reading through one of my automotive history books last night and came across this snippit in the "PORSCHE" section:
Albeit that this book was published in the UK, so that may skew the view a little, but sales numbers would dictate a "successful" car or an "unsuccessful" one...
The author seems to view the 914 as an unsuccessful venture...go figure...
Posted by: Joe Sharp Jul 13 2006, 10:42 AM
Scott: VW of America ( a distrubutor) is the parent company of Porsche of America (also a distrubutor) and is also the parent company of Audi of America (also as distrubutor).
That is the reason that VW of America was so strong is the company. VW of America made more money for the company than the rest of the world.
70 percent of all sales.
So much so that VW paid for the 917's.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe
Posted by: Scott Carlberg Jul 13 2006, 11:02 AM
Scott: VW of America ( a distrubutor) is the parent company of Porsche of America (also a distrubutor) and is also the parent company of Audi of America (also as distrubutor).
:PERMAGRIN: Joe
..I disagree with you Joe. (ain't America GREAT!)
NO mention here of Porsche in either VW group:
http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/en2/unternehmen/konzern.html
Porsche = Independence:
http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/porschephilosophy/whoweare/aps1244/
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 13 2006, 11:34 AM
I have dedicated myself to educating the media the best I can refuting the published "failure" of these cars. This website is an extension of that attempt.
In the SF bay area in 2003 there were Boxsters EVERYWHERE. Porsche produced "only" 80k some odd Boxsters over the same 6 year time frame. I started questioning what I had been reading (poor sales) started digging in and found the Boxster sales numbers as well as all the 911's (I was doing market research for the purchase of SSI) I concluded that the 914 sold DAMN well for the 6 years it was produced.
I would imagine they were all over the place in the 70's also (much like the Boxsters flying around in Silicon Valley)
Each time I see someone "publish" something saying the "poor sales" crap.. I send a friendly email with some hard numbers backing it up.
B
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 13 2006, 11:43 AM
I have dedicated myself to educating the media the best I can refuting the published "failure" of these cars. This website is an extension of that attempt.
In the SF bay area in 2003 there were Boxsters EVERYWHERE. Porsche produced "only" 80k some odd Boxsters over the same 6 year time frame. I started questioning what I had been reading (poor sales) started digging in and found the Boxster sales numbers as well as all the 911's (I was doing market research for the purchase of SSI) I concluded that the 914 sold DAMN well for the 6 years it was produced.
I would imagine they were all over the place in the 70's also (much like the Boxsters flying around in Silicon Valley)
Each time I see someone "publish" something saying the "poor sales" crap.. I send a friendly email with some hard numbers backing it up.
B
They were everywhere in Seattle!! My friends and I used to play "Is it a six game?" Trying to identify a 914 if it was a six or not before seeing the back emblem.
Rode in a few back then too. I have never seen the profit/loss figures on the 914.
Wonder what Porsche did make on the car as it fit perfectly in their lineup as a indtroductory model at the time.
Geoff
Posted by: BMartin914 Jul 13 2006, 12:04 PM
It's a conspiracy!
Posted by: GWN7 Jul 13 2006, 03:26 PM
It's a conspiracy!
There is a write up in the WCC 05 handout that follows the same theory...
Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 03:45 PM
So, what ARE the top sellers for Porsche over time? The top year for the 914 was 1973, when 28,400 were made (production numbers are probably easy to get than sales numbers).
I've seen 911 production data for that period (don't have it handy, but I think it was less than half what the 914 did that year). I've never seen 924, 944, or Boxster production data.
I'm willing to bet the 914 is in the top three of cars produced in one year since the company was founded.
Posted by: 914-8 Jul 13 2006, 04:15 PM
Porsche certainly wasn't in need of "saving" in the early 70s. They were doing quite well at the time. You can read about it in Ludvigsen's book "Excellence was Expected." They were so flush with cash, they pretty much let the engineers run wild. So they did "cost no object" type things like moving the oil tank forward on the '72 911 to get better balance.
Certainly, by '74 and '75, the exchange rate made it difficult for all foreign car makers, including Porsche. It caused the prices of all imports to go up much higher, which always makes it harder to sell.
The 914 probably helped a bit during those years. But it certainly wasn't much, or for long. By '76, the 914 was dead.
So, no, I don't think the 914 "saved" Porsche.
Posted by: Racer Jul 13 2006, 04:23 PM
I believe the 924/44 series cars were produced in the highest numbers.
I beleive the 914 is definately top 3, but basically, how many models did Porsche produced for sale at any one time?
356 (1949-1965)
911 (1965-present, in various forms - 40+years!)
914 (1970-1975/6)
924/44 (1976-1995)
928 (1977-1995)
Boxster (1997-present)
Cayenne (??-present)
From this, it is easy to see that the "lower priced" cars during multiple models years SHOULD be the best sellers. Thus, 914,944 and Boxster successes!
As for "independant" as someone mentioned above.
Porsche has always been an independent manufacturer. It was not until the 1980's that they set up their OWN DEALER network. Previously, they contracted with VOLKSWAGEN to oversee their US sales. Volkswagen of America (VOA) was that entity.
In a recent reversal of Financial sucess, Porsche purchased 20% of VW to ensure Porsches survival. VW is a very important partner in Porsche's success. Look at the 914 and 924/44. Those cars were supposed to be VW's and became Porsche's best sellers!
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 13 2006, 04:36 PM
P
The 914 probably helped a bit during those years. But it certainly wasn't much, or for long. By '76, the 914 was dead.
So, no, I don't think the 914 "saved" Porsche.
VW killed the 914 as they took over the asssembly line at the Karmann plant for a Water cooled car.
I have a friend who says he was at that meeting when VW told Porsche they were going to use that assembly line. He said there was lots of yelling.
Posted by: lapuwali Jul 13 2006, 04:38 PM
You're missing some models there. The 912 outsold the 911 for at least two model years ('66-'67).
Outside the 356 period, Porsche produced 2-3 models of road car at any given time, and currently make 4 (996, Boxster, Cayman, Cayenne). In the early 70s, this was the 914 and the 911. In the late 70s into the 1990s, this was the 924/944, 928, and 911. They were also busy making racing models during all of this time.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 13 2006, 04:58 PM
I can just picture it...
"No, Mr. Cooley. The best idea is to let Red hit you with whatever she wants."
"Now for you, Mrs. Cooley. Don't you think a Louisville Slugger would make a much better sound against Mike's head??"
--DD
Posted by: Rrrockhound Jul 13 2006, 08:06 PM
I wonder if any 914 buyers in the 70s were pissed off to find out they had a VW engine. I'm old enough to remember there was a scandal when people found out that GM shared engines across model lines, i.e. Pontiac 455 V8s ending up in Oldsmobiles, etc. It was even a joke on "All in the Family". I still can't see what the big deal was.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 13 2006, 09:37 PM
I think everyone knew the 1.7L engine was stolen from 411's. They loved the 30mpg with it.
The 2.0L four was a big upgrade.
Posted by: markb Jul 14 2006, 01:15 AM
I can just picture it...
"No, Mr. Cooley. The best idea is to let Red hit you with whatever she wants."
"Now for you, Mrs. Cooley. Don't you think a Louisville Slugger would make a much better sound against Mike's head??"
--DD
Posted by: johannes Jul 14 2006, 02:35 AM
Now facts ! ...
Porsche 356:
Years:16
Total production: 77 895
Average: 4 868
Source: http://www.356registry.org/tech/production.html
Porsche 912:
Years: 5+1
Total production: ~32 000
Average : 5 333
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_912
Porsche 914
Years:7
Total production: 118 992
Average : 16 998
Source: http://914world.com
Porsche 924:
Years:13
Total Production: 152 081
Average : 11 698
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_924
Porsche 944:
Years:10
Total Production: 163 192
Average : 16 319
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_944
Porsche 928:
Years:18
Total Production: 61 056
Average : 3 392
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_928
Porsche 911:
Years:43
Total production: 400 000 ?????? based on calculation bellow.
I have read the avarage of Porsche 911 was less than the 912 at the same period ... and It certainely was less than the 924 ... and more than the 928
In my opinion back in the seventies the 911 had an average of 4000 to 7000 ... but today is quite different ...
1995-2005 = 264 000
1995-2005 Average : 24 000
Source : http://www.autointell.com/sports_cars/porsche/business-figures/porsche22.htm (click on the chart)
Porsche Boxter:
Years : 10+
Total Production: 185 816 (96-05)
Average : 18 500
Source : http://www.autointell.com/sports_cars/porsche/business-figures/porsche22.htm (click on the chart)
Porsche Cayenne:
Years : 3 +
Total production: 107 373
Average : 35 791
Source : http://www.autointell.com/sports_cars/porsche/business-figures/porsche22.htm (click on the chart)
Conclusion 1 : Back in the seventies the 914 was a real success
Conclusion 2 : Porsche has become a SUV producer
NARP rules !!!! (914, 924-944, Cayenne...)
What about this ?
Porsche Panamera
Average : 40 000 ? they predict 20 000
The chassis may also be shared with VW...
Posted by: Flat VW Jul 14 2006, 08:55 AM
NARP rules !!!! (928
) The chassis may also be shared with VW...
Posted by: johannes Jul 14 2006, 02:46 PM
If someone has the 911 red book, could you please tell me the quantities for 911 production in early years 1964 - 1995 !
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