Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 27 2003, 02:21 PM

Programmable electronic fuel injection (PEFI)

Is anyone interested in a SDS PEFI GROUP BUY?

Base system list is $785 or $1165 for the full meal deal (crank trigger ignition) for the 4-cylinder version.(full list price, not counting discount)

Discount is 10% off for 2 systems and up to 25% off for 10 systems.

So that could = the base 4 cylinder system for approximately $600* or about the price of a new MPS.

*(Based on the basic system, no options with 10 people in the buy for a 25% discount, no shipping.)

This is for the brain only, many options, you must check out their site and decide what you want/need. Will work on the stock engine and intake system to get you going. Then you can go hipo crazy (cam, TB’s, stroker, etc.) if you want. (I think with a few options $800. to $1000.+ is maybe a more realistic cost per system.)


http://www.sdsefi.com/

The points I like about it are: you don’t need a laptop (which is good for me as I’m totally ‘puter stupid), the controller stays in the car, they will build it with a real CHT sender, they custom tailor the harness, the base system isn’t too expensive, info BBS, they have aircooled experience and the guy uses it on his own plane. A couple of bugs and a couple of 911’s are running this system, one 914 in progress.

Check it out, sounds good to me, but if you’ve heard anything bad about them let me know. The only real negatives that I have heard so far is; the CPU isn’t waterproof and the 914 guy said that he was having trouble (stock fan) mounting the crank trigger.

6 cylinder version base price $ 815, full meal deal $1320. (full list price, not counting discount)
8 cylinder and Mazda 2 rotor systems also available.

If anyone is interested shoot me an email. I’m thinking about buying at the end of April/May.

mhenry69@sympatico.ca

Posted by: 914Timo Feb 28 2003, 01:43 AM

Good idea and very nice system, but I like more finnish http://www.sci.fi/~hestec2/. The price should be about the same.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 28 2003, 05:23 PM

Timo, that system still requires a laptop computer so in my view it’s way more expensive.

The SDS does not require a PC, the controller stays in the car (you can remove it if you like) and one person can program it as they drive. No need for rolling dyno time. You do not have to play with a computer program if you just change your timing a couple of degrees. One racecar driver states that he did a bunch of changes to the engine just before the start of a race, he reported that he dialed in the PEFI by the 1st corner.

The SDS system may not be for everyone, ‘puter geeks may be lost without the PC and the reams of useless (to me) information they can produce.

To me the fact that the system is Canadian is kind of cool, but very low on my decision making list. It would be a tad cheaper to ship to people in the United States from Canada than Finland. As long as everyone in the group buy pays individually, they will ship directly to each single person. The only thing I get out of this is the same discount everyone else gets.

Posted by: Mueller Feb 28 2003, 05:36 PM

I looked at the SDS system, but me being me (cheap and I tend to break things) I couldn't justify the cost....(and then the repair)

Mark,

It seems to me that you have a computer......can you get it close enough to the garage to run a 10ft or so cable? If so, then no need to have a laptop...yep it's that darn Megasquirt again....almost as annoying as this guy

FYI, the Megasquirt is coming out with a DIY package that will allow one to modify the ECU while driving or pretty much wherever without the need for a Laptop or a PC.
To me, it looks like a version similar to the pendant that the SDS uses.

Post your find on shoptalkforums as well as a few of the 911 boards...get the word out on the group buy so that you can take advantage of it....good luck and keep us informed

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 28 2003, 05:42 PM

When is Mega squirt going to be available next?

I totally clueless with electronics, can I do it? how long is build time?

Posted by: Mueller Feb 28 2003, 05:55 PM

Not sure when the next group buy is....soon I would think....

Can you build one???
Can you zip-up your pants without getting the beans or the frank caught???

If so, you might have the skill to build one

Whether or not it works is another story........

Truthfully, the MS (Megasquirt) is not for everyone...hell, somedays it's not even for me and I thrive on this DIY cr@p just for bragging rights around here at the office...

Soldering is easy once you get the hang of it...it's the electrical troubleshooting that can be a problem if something is hooked up wrong.....but this can happen with any aftermarket or factory FI system.....paying attention to details and knowing what does what and why and how one input can change the parameters is very important.
Basicly a bunch of reading and studying and hopefully not making too many mistakes....the mistakes are sorta fun,I enjoy the trouble shooting and it "forces" you to learn how it works.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Feb 28 2003, 06:44 PM

I think the SDS system is a great candidate for someone to buy, calibrate to the 914 and sell as a turnkey system.

The control box could be inserted into the OEM ECU box and the harness could be easy enough to make/retrofit for the 914.

If I wanted to tinker...maybe the MS woudl be the ticket.

Buts SDS has a long history of applications, is competitively priced and would be my aftermarket FI system of choice...I think. Hows that for decisiveness.

Posted by: airsix Feb 28 2003, 06:44 PM

Don't rule out systems that need a laptop! I program my MIC3 with a 486 laptop I bought for $30.

-Ben M.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 28 2003, 10:59 PM

Bowlsby gave this system a thumbs up, (I think )
so I do think I'm on the right track,even if no one else steps up to the plate.

Mueller, the Mega Squirt is interesting but I don't have a lot of patience, I would rather pay, plug and play.

I'm a bit of a bargoon hunter myself, but I have such horseshoes flying out of my butt when it comes to my cars, that I rarely cheap out on parts. You can call it a karma thing.

Jeff, the "stick it into an old OEM ECU box" idea is pure genus. I might just do that.

Ben I'll check out the MIC3 (do you have the link) but I don't see how I can drive and punch away at a PC easy.
I change shit all the time so I will be reprogramming a lot.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Mar 1 2003, 12:27 AM

Yesm, that was my official thumbs up on the SDS.

The MS system has its positives too, but for many 914 owners like you and me...we just want to plug and play.

Mike Cooley from Tacoma put in an Autronic a couple years ago and had to do alot of the R&D to get it to work, I would not want to go to that effort. something like18 months downtime. Life is too short for that. SDS seems to have it as hassle-free as is possible with any generic aftermarket system.

In concept, I don't have a problem with programming via laptop, but the reality is, the car with the aftermarket FI may need tweaking from time to time. I prefer the idea of a single-source manufacturer-provided programmer that does not rely on a laptop working 10-15-20 years from now.

If it somehow breaks...SDS will likely be around in 2020 to fix/replace it.

Besides, I can make one of my cool FI harnesses to dress it all up. The main thing I don't like is that uglee gold box...it just does not look stock. But I wouldnt expect any mfr to do that...

Posted by: jonwatts Mar 1 2003, 12:34 AM

I'm not knocking this system because I haven't used it. In fact, I haven't used any EFI system that has a programming pendant, but I have used other pendant systems and I'm not totally convinced they make a task easier; (usually just monotonous).

It's analogous to the address book in a cell phone. Do you want to enter my name by pressing the number '4' three times followed by the '#' key to make an uppercase 'J' or would you rather enter my info with a regular computer keyboard and then download it to the phone? Yes, the computer download method will probably not work the first time (or the first 10 times) and will require some debugging, but if you have 200 names in your address book it's still the easiest way to do it. Plus you have all that data somewhere that can be backed up (like onto a CDROM).

Look, I'm an embedded software engineer by trade so I like things to be as simple and straightforward as possible. You might think I'd prefer the pendant but in the case of EFI there is a lot of data to be input and retrieved (more than you can effectively show with a 2x16 LCD display). I think a computer allows the flexibility to display everything in a table or graph and let you see the trends of what is going on with the data. (I'm glad those Windows programming b@stards at work aren't reading this).

All that said, don't let me talk you out of it. Anybody doing something like this needs to be encouraged. I hope you get some takers on the group buy. I'm finding that figuring out all the stuff for my installation is a huge amount of fun.

Posted by: airsix Mar 1 2003, 12:53 AM

I just meant don't avoid a good system just because it needs a laptop, because you can get a laptop that will do the job for cheap.

You actually can't get the MIC3 any more. It has evolved into the PRS series. More features. More $.
http://www.perfectpower.com

The SDS has a good reputation and seems to be a great bang for the buck. Best bang for the buck? Megasquirt. No contest. At your ~$800 target you're also in the range of the Autronic SMC at discount prices. The Autronic is a nice unit. I'd definitely consider it.

-Ben

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 2 2003, 07:23 AM

Jon, I think you should read the SDS info again. One testimonial has a racer saying he reprogrammed his FI by the first corner while driving under race conditions. Of course this may be a biased testimonial, but it doesn’t get much faster then the first corner. I've done maps, on a friend’s Haltech and quite frankly I'd rather have root canal.

Ben, Autronic? Bowlsby’s last post says he knows a guy that took a manure wagonload of R&D and 18 months for that system to work. For that kind of time I’ll do the Mega Squirt. I want plug and play in 1 or 2 weekends at the most. Hell, if it going to take that kind of time I’ll just buy a set of 44 IDF Weber’s.
Reality is I want a higher tech system than just carb’s and if I get talked out of SDS, I will go with the Haltech, its only a 100 bucks more. The major thing I don’t like about the Haltech is it’s made for a water-cooled, with a generic wiring harness that you have to cut and splice to fit an aircooled.

Simple is what I'm after, as I’m not much of a 'puter guy. When I got my new 'puter I took my old tower outside and shot it with my 12 gauge. It may be just an inanimate object, but it sure made me happy!

Posted by: seanery Mar 2 2003, 09:39 AM

What about Electromotive Tek 3 ?

I know its pricey, but isn't it THE shit to have?

Posted by: Mueller Mar 2 2003, 11:23 AM

Believe me, the SDS or anything else out there is not going to easily bolt or plug-n-play. The problems Mike Cooley had I believe had nothing to do with him or the Autronic unit...he was using a mechanic that IMHO, did know what the heck he was doing.....most of the PEFI units are very simple.....

as with any engine, a known amount of gas and air will ignite to push the piston down...all the ECU does is try to keep this value balanced depending on the inputs of the sensors...

The TPS (throttle postion sensor) 3 wires
(ground)
(+5v...from ECU)
(signal, goes to the ECU, this will be less than 5v and varies with the movment of the butterfly, lower voltage at idle and higher voltage at WOT)


Air temp sensor, 2 wires
(1 ground, other goes back to ECU)

Water temp or CHT....2 wires (1 wire with CHT since the engine is gounded)
All this sensor does is tell the ECU to turn off the fuel enrichment...heck, if one lived in a warm place, this sensor would not even be needed. Currently with my MS, I am using the stock CHT, when the motor reaches operating temperature, the CHT reads 300ohms (I'm guessing here, I don't have my notes with me), guess what? The GM sensors used for Water temp read 180° when they reach 300ohms...this triggers the ECU to disable the fuel enrichment...this can changed to any value you want, 160° +/- 50° if you wish.

fuel injectors, 2 wires each

MAP (3 wires and a hose)
same thing as the TPS except that it is looking for vacuum or pressure

Once you go PEFI , you'll never want to go back to anything else...it is precise and sorta bitchin knowing how perfect it is and that it's almost alive while doing it's job of keeping the engine running
The ECU is a well trained machine and once your parameters are set, all the ECU wants to do is keep you happy and it will give the correct signal to the fuel injectors based on the input it gets from the TPS, MAP, ATS, CHT and 02 (if it has one)

Sorry for the ramble, i wish I could write my thoughts better so that they make more sense

Posted by: airsix Mar 2 2003, 11:54 AM

Mueller is right. PEFI is great. I am very glad I did mine. BUT... None of the systems are a simple "plug and play". None of them.

Things you are going to have to deal with:
1) you are going to have to build a wiring harness. NOBODY provides a plug and play harness.
2) you are going to have to figure out a way to provide a crank possition signal.
3) you are going to have to build an ignition system
4) you are going to have to troubleshoot for hours to find the ONE little thing you did wrong.
5) you are going to have to tune the system and you ARE NOT going to be able to do it while going around a track by yourself.

I'll finish off by summing it all up in two statements.
1) The reality is that it will be many times more difficult than you think.
2) The end result is worth it.

-Ben

ps - I would never trade my tuning screen for a one-line LCD controller. One of the primary benefits of the laptop tunable systesm is all the information you can see live on-screen. It makes it much easier to understand what is happening and why. (That's not a criticism of the SDS which i think is a great system. Just personal preference)

Posted by: Alfred Mar 2 2003, 12:22 PM

Does anyone have experience with the CB Performance system? They sell one specifically for the 914.

Alfred

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 2 2003, 12:39 PM

This is the links to the compatition, most won't even give you a price list:

http://www.emi.cc/
http://www.haltech.com.au/
http://www.motec.com/
http://www.tciauto.com/ecu/spe_menu.htm
http://www.mrgasket.com/accel.htm

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

This is the link to the SDS FAQ page:

http://www.sdsefi.com/adv.htm

Yes, some of the testamonials 'may' be biased, but they are pushing this system as the eaziest system to program.

Mueller, I agree with most of what you said, but how hard is it going to be to install a system that has a custom, made to your spec, wiring harness? I mean it doesn't have many more wires than a stereo and I can do that in an afternoon taking my time. I know thats not the same, but it really only has one big wire to run to the dash, the rest should be not much more than the stock harness. I really don't think 1-2 weekends for the install is out of line.

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 2 2003, 12:51 PM

IMHO the CB system sucks, it isn't even in the running. I'll take a progressive carb first!

The CB system has no program to tweek and little adjustment. The plus side is it is a complete system with dual (but cheap) TB's for about $1800. US. FI only, no ignition.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 2 2003, 01:05 PM

Why are people so hung up on the wiring harness?

Here is a link to the Megasquirt wiring diagram

16 wires...oh noooooo

http://www.bgsoflex.com/sensorwire.pdf


The sensors that show one wire going to the ECU are grounded, either directly on the engine or with a wire going to a common ground.

I agree with you on the CB setup, the reason it is not all that great is that the ECU is not getting enough information from the engine....a few more sensors and it would be a kick ass system

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Mar 2 2003, 01:37 PM

A stock DJet FI harness takes ME most of a day to fab. and I have made many of them, I have the correct templates, tools, and parts at my fingertips.

I suspect the harness they provide will be primitive...no casing or rubber boots, maybe Im wrong, I have not lloked at theire details. If its been made specifically for the 914 then we would hope it would at least be functional, if only basic. If it were going on MY car though...I would probably redo the harness but thats just me.

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 2 2003, 01:59 PM

basic system FI only

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Mar 2 2003, 02:19 PM

"The EM-4 ECU uses 4 connectors arranged on one side. The left plug is for injector drive wires and options. The DB25 connector is for sensor, ignition trigger wires and ECU power. The DB9, 2nd from the right, is for the Hall sensor connection and the far right DB9 is for the LCD programmer. Complete main wiring harness and injector harness are supplied, made to your custom specs if desired along with Hall sensor and LCD programmer cord. Standard main harnesses and injector drive harnesses are 6 feet long from ECU to most sensors, Hall sensor cables are 7 feet standard. Programmer cable from ECU to programmer is 6 feet. Please note that there will be a $30US/ $45CDN additional charge for custom length wiring harnesses as of Jan.1/03 and that custom harnesses will usually delay orders an additional day or so."

SDS apparently supplies 'standard' 6 foot long harnesses-what 'made to your specs' means is not clear. The photos show the injector harnesses without boots or casing, both of which are critical to long term performance of the system, but it wouold cost alot more for them to make it up.

I would jump at the chance to make up the harness for this system...I can see how it would look sah-weet.

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 2 2003, 05:24 PM

Jeff,
One thing I also noticed was they don't recommend mounting the ECU in the engine bay. I think the main reason is this unit is not waterproof. You might get around this mounting it in an old d-jet ECU case, but the next question is will this affect its heatsink abilities?

Posted by: jonwatts Mar 2 2003, 08:27 PM

Mount the ECU in a rubbermaid food storage box (I've seen this done). It does pose an interesting question of where the best place to mount an ECU in a 914 might be. I'm not in agreement that under the battery tray is the best place. Nor is under the passenger's seat because of how our cars leak. I might put mine behind the passenger's seat on the firewall.

Mark, I don't think you can go too wrong with any of the systems you are looking at, but I think having the car down for only 2 weekends and tuning it before turn 1 on the race track are a bit off the reality scale. If you call adjusting the overall timing value as "tuning" then just cut a hole in your firewall, reach back there with a nomex glove and adjust your dizzy

Mueller, what's the status of the Palm Pilot software some folks were writing for the MegaSquirt? If it's useable this would be an excellent (and still the cheapest) non-PC PEFI setup out there.

Posted by: chunger Mar 3 2003, 02:56 AM

MS system is fun. . .

Having no experience soldering circuit boards (I have soldered for guitar repairs and audio/video installs) and no knowledge of circuits, I built the computer in 1 night. . . ~8 hours but my back and butt hurt. . . and the thing worked perfectly on the stim module. Instructions and schematics were intuitive. . . even though I'd never read a circuit diagram before.

I bought another one (2nd Gen.) that will go into my car. SBC w/ mpfi.

-'Chung

Posted by: 914Timo Mar 3 2003, 03:22 AM

I have soldered quite a many circuit boards and would love to make one for my ´51 Split Window Bug. I have 1776 ccm engine with Dellortos for it and I would like to chance those carburators to MS.

I even once tried to order one, but never get any reply. If somebody here have one un-built kit, I could be very interested in to buy it.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Mar 3 2003, 11:05 AM

Dont know frankly. I might look at mounting the new ECU in the original ECU box, but you might have to cut out access holes (at the bottom of the original ECU box) to install the plug connectors into the new ECU, if my understanding of the SDS boxs' dimensions and plugs are right. The oversized hole could allow adequate ventialtion and still give water protection.

ANother location might be to mount the new ECU on the sloped surface at the rear of the rear trunk (towards the front of the car).

I studied the wiring schematics...a new harness could be made to use the fuel pump relay and connections off the stock relay plate. Aside from abandoning the MPS, I think the install could almost be a perfect sleeper and look almost completely stock.

Posted by: airsix Mar 3 2003, 11:44 AM

Heat dissipation is definitely an issue. The little transistors that drive the injectors get mighty warm. They are mounted to a heat sink (usually the metal case) and it needs to be exposed to free air. I think mounting in a rubbermaind box might be trouble. The documentation for my MIC3 specifically said not to put it inside a box or it will overheat. I have mine mounted to the pad behind the driver's seat.

-Ben M.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 3 2003, 12:26 PM

I mounted my MS ECU in the rear trunk with the wiring going thru the hole for the targa top latches on the firewall section....

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 3 2003, 03:06 PM

I posted the group buy offer over on the STF, we now have 3 people interested in a system. That’s good for a 15% discount so far.

Jeff, if you were to decide to grab one, I have no problems with saying this was your deal. Hopefully you could get the dealers discount if you found a future market for the system. They have changed a few things with the price list, the custom wire harness (length) now costs extra and before they did list the ECU price separately, which would be good for you. You might want to ask to see if they will sell components.

I think in the trunk is the best place for the unit. I’m wondering about the crank fire ignition, is it worth it? It seems that some guys have problems (finger trouble) setting it up, the 914 guy was having install trouble because of our fan system and if you hit it with a pressure washer you can kill the coil packs.

Jon, if you are just replacing the stock D-jet ECU and wiring with a SDS injection only system it will take no time at all. If you are adding crank fire, changing TB’s etc., then of course your right. The thing I like about any PEFI system is that you can stick it on a stock TB system then up-grade if you like. I just found a Canadian hipo auto magazine, with an article about a ricer racing team that installed this system. Not much real info, but they did state that it took them 3hrs on the dyno to set-up the system.

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 4 2003, 01:47 PM

We now have 4 people interested, that's good for a 15% discount, but it's early yet.

Posted by: street legal go-kart Mar 28 2003, 10:17 PM

almost a month later is anyone still watching this thread ? are any of these systems compatable with the smog nazis in calif ? I have a 76 2.o 4cyl . runs well now but parts are almost impossable to find .

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 28 2003, 10:55 PM

We have 8 people on the list.

I moved it over to the STF site because there was more interest there. The buy happens at the end of the month if we have enough guys still in.

SDS says that this system is not as clean emissions wise as a factory FI system, that said, I don't think they are talking about a 30-year-old car. It has to be cleaner than carbs. I wish we could get some back to back tests, oh well.

You could cheat, set it up closed loop and play with the program for the test. You could always add a catalytic converter and hiding the aftermarket case in the factory case could be also done if they do a visual.

I think that you will see more and more guys switch to some brand of aftermarket FI like the SDS as the stock systems get older.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 28 2003, 11:27 PM

Technically the SDS or anything that is not stock is not smog legal. If you do a clean enough install (if it looks neat enough to be factory equipment), I doubt most "smog monkeys" are gonna notice. If you can set it up to run cleaner than D-jet (and I would be very surprised if you couldn't!) then there shouldn't be any problem.

If the installation is obviously aftermarket, then the smog inspectors may fail you.

--DD

Posted by: Mueller Mar 28 2003, 11:32 PM

Mark,

The SDS guy was lying to you about the smog.....he is protecting himself from possible lawsuits if someone put this system on a car and got busted for a non-smog legal item and went and told the law or whoever that the seller claimed it would pass smog with flying colors.

I'm sure a motor running SDS can put out numbers better than the factory FI can, but SDS cannot tell you that. There are some things that as a seller you cannot claim.

So far SCCA has allowed PEFI in the ITA class so that will help, and once PCA allows PEFI in some of the lower classes, that will open up even more people that want to run, but cannot because of rules.

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 29 2003, 10:30 AM

I kind of figured that this was the old “Legal in California only for racing vehicles which may never be used upon a highway” clause.

Hide it and run it!!!

I can understand why stock racing classes don’t allow PEFI, it would be too easy and tempting to cheat. Tech inspection hell.

Anyways here is the STF thread, email me if you’re interested:

http://shoptalkforums.com/bbs/NonCGI/Forum23/HTML/000668.html

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 6 2003, 02:35 PM

RE: SDS group buy


OK, it’s not that long till the end of the month. Who’s in and who’s out?

Shoot me an email if you’re still in!

Posted by: Mark Henry Apr 8 2003, 11:33 PM

OK, I’ve made the call on the STF for all the guys that are serious about a system. So far we have 6 guys for sure, good for a 20% discount. Almost everyone will be using these systems for turbo applications. The most expensive system will be in a Porsche 930 twin plug turbo.
The end of the month is coming quick.