Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Sportomatic 914
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 09:43 PM
Well, I have done some research on the sportomatic cars, and I have decided to build one myself. 
It will be a 914 for my mom, because she doesn't like to have to use the clutch...because she is too short (exatly five feet).. 
We found a nice solid car, good price, and it has airconditioning...which my mom specified it *had* to have for her to drive. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-914-RARE-1976-PORSCHE-914-Last-Year-Made-Dont- Miss_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6430QQihZ007QQitemZ170011306170QQrdZ1QQsspagenam
eZWDVW My dad called us while we were driving from Virginia to Atlanta today and told us we won it...Then I asked her what color she wanted it to be, and the first car she liked she said "that color" it just happened to be a mini cooper... It was orange with black stipes, so that will be my theme. I aim to start and complete the project over next summer, while working at a professional porsche racing shop that pretty much deals with older race cars. I need a list of parts that I need to start collecting to make this work. It really shouldn't be hard to do...after I figured out how everthing worked... So far I have:
-901 Sportomatic transmission
-911 sportomatic pedal cluster
-911 sportomatic shifter and tigger
-torque convertor (it was a VW unit..just not sure exacly what model..I have it saved on the comp somewhere)
-transmission oil temp gauge
-I think I need and extra oil pump to pressurize the system..still a little confused about that part
What else people?? I need to start looking for parts because of their rarity.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 09:44 PM
can you flip the diff in a sporto?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 09:44 PM
also...
905 = 901 based sporto
925 = 915 based sporto IIRC
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 09:46 PM
also again!
i read that the sporto oil pump was driven off one of the six cylinder cams....
i remember someone here was going to use one for a tranny pump/cooler setup....
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 09:50 PM
can you flip the diff in a sporto?
Do I need to? It could probably be done, that is why I am working at a racing shop next summer....I'll do the work like mowing and cleaning up and stuff and he will teach my the business...
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 09:52 PM
also again!
i read that the sporto oil pump was driven off one of the six cylinder cams....
i remember someone here was going to use one for a tranny pump/cooler setup....
If it was driven off one of the cams, how would I get it to work on a T4? Could I run it off the flywheel? (I dont know anything about it, so that may be a very stupid question)...
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 09:54 PM
can you flip the diff in a sporto?
Do I need to? It could probably be done, that is why I am working at a racing shop next summer....I'll do the work like mowing and cleaning up and stuff and he will teach my the business...
uh yeah.... (unless you want 1 forward gear and a few reverse LO)
or mount it upside down...
the 914 sporto HAD to have a flipped diff (or the motor spun backwards NOT)
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Jul 30 2006, 09:55 PM
Should be an interesting project, bummer you are so far away. Have fun.
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 09:57 PM
hey, if we get it finished before WCC07, we will drive it out. PROMISE!
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 09:57 PM
Check into the T4 411's and 412's. Most of them seam to have been sold with Automatics. You'll have all the T4 auto pieces you need.
B
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:14 PM
ok, the oil pump on the 911 sporto was driven by a cam..so why would I need to do a mechanical pump?? Couldn't I do an electric oil pump??
Posted by: rick 918-S Jul 30 2006, 10:15 PM
I have a 411 1.7. It was in a auto car. I may still have the flywheel. But if you find a non running 411 auto stick you may be able to flip the diff and use the T4 stuff to make it work. I know less than nothing about how the Sporto works. Great Project. No question on this subject is dumb.
P.S. I do know the axles don't work and the brakes and all the other stuff are not the same. So you may need to play with axle flanges and stuff to get the axles to bolt to an auto stick.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 10:16 PM
ok, the oil pump on the 911 sporto was driven by a cam..so why would I need to do a mechanical pump?? Couldn't I do an electric oil pump??
hmm...
maybe a tilton gear lube pump (used for tranny cooling apps...)
racerpartswholesale.com
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:21 PM
so, a learning question...why use the cam to run the pump? wouldn't it spin faster as the RPM's went up, also causing the pump to work harder??? More pressure at higher RPM's???
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 10:24 PM
great point....
the pressure is what keeps it from slipping no?
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 10:24 PM
I guess Rick and I have no f-ing clue..LOL
411+412 has ALL the pump parts/flex plate and torque converters you need. Auto trannies from these cars can be had for $150
I *THINK* they ran the pump off of the oil pump cover much like a dry sump setup.
Forget the electric setup.
B
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:25 PM
that makes sense.... so how would I make an electic pump work off of RPM's?? Run it like the tach?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 10:27 PM
maybe buy this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8003735463
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:28 PM
I guess Rick and I have no f-ing clue..LOL
411+412 has ALL the pump parts/flex plate and torque converters you need. Auto trannies from these cars can be had for $150
I *THINK* they ran the pump off of the oil pump cover much like a dry sump setup.
Forget the electric setup.
B
So where can I get these parts?? I checked ebay and I barely found anything at all for a regular 411 and 412.... the samba? Local VW junkyard?
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:30 PM
maybe buy this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8003735463
It's a manual trans...
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 10:32 PM
i guess i should read first
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 10:34 PM
Start with the junk yards. The Samba didnt have much either.
Try the T3 section. From what I gather they used the same tranny and same "accumulator" and oil pump.
B
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:38 PM
ok, I will look into that. Say that I was a rebel, and didn't listen to you guys? Would I get bashed like trekkor did about the screw in studs 
Say that I did run a 911 sporto trans, flipped the diff, modified a 411 torque converter to work (if possible) and ran an eletric pump. For the electric pump, I think I have an idea... I was looking into adding a shift light into the car a while ago, and I asked how I would go about that..well, I was told that if I used an MSD ignition system, I could run it off of that..well, could I run the oil pump off of that the same way??
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 30 2006, 10:40 PM
electric pump isnt a great idea as brad said.....
MSD box cannot drive a pump. it can drive an RPM related accessory (tach/light etc it gives a tiny voltage signal.... not 5-6 amps to run a pump)
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 10:43 PM
Short answer: Yes.
First you need to learn how Automatics work.
The 911 Sportamatic is not a true automatic like the 411 and 412 used.
They run it off the cams because it does need more pressure as RPM goes up.
B
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:46 PM
well...I guess I will either be trying to figure out how the factory T4 sporto worked...or start trying to find 411 parts.. was the 411 and autostick, or was it a straight auto? Would I have to flip the diff in that to? How would I mate the stock CV's to the drive shaft?
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 10:46 PM
Normal Automatics (not sporto's) run the pump in the bell housing of the tranny. The torque converter spins the pump. Since the Sporto is not a true automatic it doesnt have room in the bell housing for the pump to reside. It is a 901 box with the short bell housing cut off (basically)
B
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:49 PM
so the 411 is a regular automatic, no stick at all?
Posted by: ZZZZZ Jul 30 2006, 10:56 PM
Why not do that Audi box that guy did? Wasn't it Krusty that knew the guy?
Posted by: GWN7 Jul 30 2006, 10:57 PM
Barry...why not ask someone who has done one before.....see if Gust has contact info for the guy who did the one in Europe....might give you some insite...
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:58 PM
Never heard of it...any more details?
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 10:59 PM
Barry...why not ask someone who has done one before.....see if Gust has contact info for the guy who did the one in Europe....might give you some insite...
lol, because I dont know anyone that has done one before...
Posted by: GWN7 Jul 30 2006, 11:00 PM
Check your other Sporto thread.....Gust posted the link I believe
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 11:01 PM
I am on my grandma's computer right now, so I dont know where that thread went...the search never turns anything up for me...
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 11:09 PM
I have been asked numerous times over the years to "produce" something. I just dont think the demand is there to "produce" something. I'm past the point of "doing it for the love of the car". I'm sure he can pull this off. I personally would go down the 411+412 path and find out if the diff can be flipped.
The Audi idea is great, but then you have to figure out the engine adapter.
I love the idea.
B
Posted by: GWN7 Jul 30 2006, 11:09 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=34688
that was from searching "sporto" 
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 30 2006, 11:17 PM
Hey brad, thanks for all you help. I would really love to at least *try* to make the sportomatic work first....if I fail then at least I learned something, and will go down another path towards an automatic..It just seems like using a sporto trans would be easy except for the oil pump part... I dont know how I would run it...I couldn't run it off the fan, because it is on the other side of the engine...not off the flywheel...so what?? I am going to try and find some original 914-4 sporto documents..and see what the guy in europe did.
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 11:23 PM
This is what the 9146 Sporto looks like (for those playing along at home)
B
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 11:25 PM
Reading the other thread: There is no reason why he would have had to do anything with an adapter. If a 911 engine bolts to a 914/901 tranny.. then a T4 will bolt to the Sporto.
B
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 30 2006, 11:26 PM
This is on Samba. I will be curious to see if this works GH. Good for you for chasing it.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=335384
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jul 30 2006, 11:31 PM
Nuther of the sporto/6
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 11:36 PM
I went through my 2005 version of PET and could not find any parts for the T4 engine related to the Sporto. Doesnt mean I didnt miss something, but I used PET every day for over a year straight last year (I know how to use it) I see all the parts for the 911 engine pump and the parts for the /6 oil tank. I see the pedal assembly parts... nothing for the T4 engine as Clay suggested in the other thread. Maybe he has some more info or maybe there is a parts supplement that was released on paper and not put into PET.
I'll keep looking. I have a 914 specific PET for 914's and the factory manuels.
B
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 11:38 PM
Great shot Jeff 
This shows the placement of the tranny farther back than stock (axles are angled back towards rear of car)
Other notes of interest: The tranny bolts are facing up.
What is the black "canister" on the passenger side of the tranny?
Why is there a body colored sway bar under the car?
B
Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 30 2006, 11:50 PM
disengages the clutch ,it has a disc.
the audi trans auto 914 was on ebay awhile back
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 30 2006, 11:53 PM
Not the round one. I knew what that one did. I'm talking about the long black "box"
I shouldn't have called it a "canister"
B
Posted by: davep Jul 31 2006, 05:20 AM
There was talk of the factory doing a sporto 914/4, but I don't know if even one prototype was made. There is nothing in any of the literature I have that shows anything on the design. Probably the 1.7 didn't have enough power to do an adequate job and they knew it would be a tough sell.
The 'easy' route to take is the 914/6 sporto since there are all the parts required there. But remember the 914/6 sporto needed a different oil tank. A bunch of those were dumped on the market some years ago. More power to run the AC also.
I'm sure there was a mechanical pump of sorts on the type 4 motor if only a fuel pump. The 905 sporto box should be the best solution. There are lots around, even I have one. That whole assembly should fit either the /4 or the /6. I'd be looking around for a cheap 911 sporto, and part it out. You'll require the pedal cluster and the gearshift plus all the tranny parts.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 07:10 AM
Look in the factory manuals as they do show some of the sporto parts. The oil pump for the 4 sporto-maybe get one off a bug/type 3 autostick?? The bus auto won't work (full auto).
Attached image(s)
Posted by: jk76.914 Jul 31 2006, 07:15 AM
I checked the Type IV automatic transmission in the manual. I seriously doubt you could flip the ring gear. The diff is set up in a separate carrier, that then installs from the bell housing end, not from the side. Looks like the bolt ring isn't symmetric. Plus, looks like the transaxle housing isn't symmetric either- that is, there isn't enough room for the ring gear on the other side.
There are dual plane oil pumps out there, though, for the Type 1-3 with autostick. One is pictured disassembled in Wilson's book "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine", on page 55. I have no idea how tall the primary gear set is, that supplies the engine oil.
Also, if you look at the manual for the Type 2 Van, 1972-1979, which used the Type IV engine, there was a fully automatic transmission where the diff loaded from the side, AND it looks like it could flip. In the assembly directions, it even says what side to put the ring gear on, suggesting it could go both ways. It runs on AT Fluid and has its own pump.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 07:33 AM
I would call Gary to see if he still has those couple of sporto trannys he had sitting there a few years ago. He also had parts for 'em.
http://www.partsobsolete.com/
Posted by: cnavarro Jul 31 2006, 09:02 AM
Geoff, you hit it right on the nose. I'm suprised no one mentioned that earlier. Way back when, I was going to put a type 4 into my autostick bug. You can take an autostick oil pump and adapt it to fit a type 4, just like you do a normal type 1 oil pump. The only source I know of that has rebuilt autostick pumps (I purchased one years ago from them) is .... GEX. The unit I got was as close to new as it gets. You could always disassemble it and blueprint each stage to get the pressure up. Although the autostick pump was designed to run two fluids (sealed stages), there is no reason why you can't run the engine oil through the torque convertor like on the 911 version.
Posted by: cnavarro Jul 31 2006, 09:05 AM
You could always make a billet oil pump duplicate of the original pump. I know the guys at R&R that I work with could easily make a pump, but it most definately will be more than a rebuilt gex unit. R&R makes billet dry sump pumps, so they know how to do it. You could always run an external dry sump pump with a belt for the torque convertor, but I have never been too keen on belt driven oil pumps :-)
Posted by: cnavarro Jul 31 2006, 09:09 AM
And about the special oil tank. Why not just use a type 1 autostick atf resevior? I'm sure that would be way cheaper than fabbing a new oil tank or finding an autostick oil tank. Same with the vacuum tank...
Posted by: Eric_Shea Jul 31 2006, 09:10 AM
That's a rare Koni bar...
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 12:32 PM
jeez, I dont even have to be here and you guys are talking about it. This really sounds like it could work. About buying a cheap 911....uhh.. no...the parts cars go for like two grand...I need that money for the paint... About the type 3 oil pump....Hmmm... it really sounds like it could work.... Hey geoff, Thanks, I'll give them a call and see if they have one. I'll also check into GEX to see if I can get one of those pumps. How much did yours cost?? You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit? So I could use the torque convertor straight off a 911 sporto? Right now, it seems the only problem we would have with doing a sport would be the oil pump..which you guys seem to have figured out. THIS IS GOING TO WORK!!!!!!!
Posted by: bondo Jul 31 2006, 12:44 PM
Just to keep things interesting... what about a tiptronic out of a boxster or cayman? No diff flipping needed!
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 12:46 PM
more complicated...mating CV's figuring out how to adapt it to a T4, and I dont know anything about a tiptronic...
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 01:24 PM
GEX has the Autostick oil pumps for $249 each!
maybe SLITS has one laying around in that pile o parts....
Posted by: Mueller Jul 31 2006, 01:30 PM
You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit?
the same place the oil pump fits on the Type IV motor.....what you might run into is that the fan housing might hit the pump....not sure how the fans are on the T3....I bet it would work fine with a DTM fan from Jake
the oil pump is a minor detail compared to whether or not you can flip the ring gear on the sporto....does anyone know if the case on the sportos are alum, or mag???
Posted by: OpaAndy Jul 31 2006, 01:35 PM
Great shot Jeff
This shows the placement of the tranny farther back than stock (axles are angled back towards rear of car)dude ...
the car is obviously on a lift, so what you see is the axles hanging down!
Andy
Posted by: Brad Roberts Jul 31 2006, 01:38 PM
And you dont think "I" know what they look like hanging down from a lift?
They dont angle BACK when in full droop.
I promise that the centerline of the axles is farther back!
Here is why:
The intermediate plate is MUCH thinner allowing the case to move back.
I also took into consideration the angle of the shot taken.
B
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 31 2006, 02:05 PM
Let's clear up some things. The T4/T2 flex plate has holes for 3 bolts, the sporto torque converter needs 4. The ring gear, I think we decided long ago, probably can't be flipped because of things happening on top of the housing. That particular obstacle MAY be able to be overcome, however. The T3 oil pump is a single stage pump, NOT a piggyback unit, because the T3 was available with either a manual or a full auto tranny. Never with a semi auto. The T1 autostick pump is made to pump ATF and the TC uses that. I seriously doubt you could run motor oil in it. The double pump would probably fit behind the shroud, although you might have to clearance the shroud a bit. After all, there's enough room in there to R&R the pump with the shroud in place, with only a little selective grinding of a couple of ribs. The T1 autostick has thrust problems with the rear manishaft and pinion bearings, so it's out. The mysterious tank mentioned earlier is a vacuum reservoir, and is a necessary part of the system. One MAJOR challenge might be rigging the vacuum valve assembly to the throttle linkage, although I'm sure it could be done.
All things considered, the tranny from an Audi Fox or 4000 might be the way to go. The earlier ones don't have an external cooler or any electronics, and were made for
about a hundred horsepower. The linkage is via cable, and some may even use a vacuum modulator. Adapters should be readily available, and the CV joints should bolt up. Might need to alter the length of the axles, as they're not symmetrical. . I have a good tranny I would sell really cheap, BTW. The Cap'n
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 02:06 PM
You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit?
the same place the oil pump fits on the Type IV motor.....what you might run into is that the fan housing might hit the pump....not sure how the fans are on the T3....I bet it would work fine with a DTM fan from Jake
the oil pump is a minor detail compared to whether or not you can flip the ring gear on the sporto....does anyone know if the case on the sportos are alum, or mag???
Type 3's have a fan setup just like type 4's....
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 31 2006, 02:48 PM
You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit?
the same place the oil pump fits on the Type IV motor.....what you might run into is that the fan housing might hit the pump....not sure how the fans are on the T3....I bet it would work fine with a DTM fan from Jake
the oil pump is a minor detail compared to whether or not you can flip the ring gear on the sporto....does anyone know if the case on the sportos are alum, or mag???
Type 3's have a fan setup just like type 4's....
Not even close. Yes, there's a fan. I have a fan in my Jetta, too, and a shroud. The T3 fan and housing are just as far removed from a T4 as the one in the Jetta, the one in a 911, and the one in a T1. The Cap'n
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 03:59 PM
Ok, I'll clarify.
Both have a crank mounted fan in a front mounted housing. Oil pump is buried behind the housing on both of them.
Are they interchangable? hell no, but the oil pump from a type 3 Autostick should fit fine behind a type 4 fan housing.
Posted by: cnavarro Jul 31 2006, 04:14 PM
Let's get one thing straight, the type 3 never had a sportomatic oil pump - the type 3's were all fully automatic and the atf pump is integral to the transmission. I guess another place to look would be an NSU, since Audi actually invented the autostick/sportomatic and it was first used on an NSU.
Since we're also discussing alternative transmission, how about variomatic from a Daf that has only one forward and reverse gear :-)
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 04:20 PM
I'm completely confused....I learn by taking things apart and actually seeing them...It's impossible for me to learn by words...got any pics?? Like of the pump, the torque convertor... the options I have..audi, T3..
Posted by: JPB Jul 31 2006, 04:23 PM
Alot of yinging and yanging here. Cool project bro and one I'd like to be part of. Like I said, I might drop by shortly and see how things are going. Its kinda cool to try to get your mom to drive a Teener. Looks like you have a huge mountain to climb and alot of different directions to go.
Gluck!
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 04:26 PM
maybe... I am back in Georgia now, but I will be back in Virginia next summer, and that is where I will be doing this. So if you want to drop by next summer that would be awsome.
Posted by: Mueller Jul 31 2006, 04:27 PM
I'm completely confused....I learn by taking things apart and actually seeing them...It's impossible for me to learn by words...got any pics?? Like of the pump, the torque convertor... the options I have..audi, T3..
you need to figure out a few things 1st....
can you flip the ring gear from a 911 sporto??
> if yes > proceed with sporto related items
> if no > will a fully automatic transmission suffice??
> if yes > find one that'll work (like the audi boxes mentioned)
>if no > end of project
without knowing the 1st question above, you are just going to get more and more confused and this thread is a waste of time and effort until you know the answer...
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 04:30 PM
I will find out if I can flip the ring gear. Will a full auto work?? Maybe..my mom kind of liked the Idea of a sporto..but I'll ask about a full auto... end of project?? NO. I wont stop until I find something that will work.
Posted by: Mueller Jul 31 2006, 05:14 PM
I will find out if I can flip the ring gear. Will a full auto work?? Maybe..my mom kind of liked the Idea of a sporto..but I'll ask about a full auto... end of project?? NO. I wont stop until I find something that will work.
of course a full auto will work, it's been done before (there are pictures somewhere on here, car was on eBay a few years back), what I meant was will it work for you as in is it something your mom would want???
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 05:17 PM
I was just quoting you on that...She said if we couldn't make it work that she would take a full auto....
Posted by: Mueller Jul 31 2006, 05:25 PM
You need an EKS from RUF 
it's a "modern" version of the sporto 
as copied from http://www.911handbook.com/articles/f_rufcar.html:
When we were at Ruf's we drove their second 993 BTR prototype, which has his EKS (Electronische Kupplung System) or in plain English an Electronic Clutch System. Alois Ruf had told me about this system almost two years ago in January 1993 when we met at the Porsche clubs Thunder Tech in Tampa Florida. At the time he was very enthusiastic about the system and I must admit I was not overly impressed with the concept, because I found myself lumping it together with the Sportomatic and Tiptronic transmission of Porsche.
The Ruf cars with the EKS have no clutch pedal and are similar in operation to the transmissions used in the modern Formula 1 cars. The clutch operation is controlled by electronic signals from a computer controlling hydraulic control circuits. The system responds to several different sensors: a gas pedal sensor for throttle position, a torque sensor in the gearshift lever so that it knows when you want to shift, and engine and car speed sensors. From the signals from these different sensors the EKS computer decides when and how to engage or disengage the rather conventional single plate clutch through a hydraulic actuator that moves the clutch throw out bearing. The EKS system is manufactured by the Sachs company and Ruf was their first customer and has helped Sachs to develop the system. Sachs wanted a small manufacture to work with so that they could gain practical experience with the system before they went after a mass market. Saab will be the first large volume manufacture to use the EKS type system in a volume production car in the 1995 model year. Saab will use the system in the Saab 900SE turbo and they will call their version of the clutchless EKS car the Sensonic. I guess they are calling their version the Sensonic because it senses when you want to shift, and the systems do indeed do just that. I am not sure about the sonic part.
I had not really expected to be impressed with this system or this car using the system because I have already had some clutchless Porsche experience with both the Porsche Sportomatic and the Porsche Tiptronic. My wife had a 911 Sportomatic for about ten years in the seventies and early eighties and I really expected this to be more of the same. I have always felt that these clutchless transmissions like the Sportomatic and the Tiptronic serve a purpose and are nice to drive, but are usually difficult to defend in a macho conversation. Incidentally speaking of the Porsche Tiptronic the newest version is called Tiptronic S and has the shift controls on the steering wheel like some of the Formula 1 cars do, but it is still an automatic transmission with a torque converter. The new Porsche Tiptronic S has two rocker switches for shifting, one on each side of the top spokes on the steering wheel. To shift up you push upwards on either of the switches (labeled "+") to engage the next higher gear and to shift down you push downwards on the button (labeled "-") for downshifts. All of this is aimed at adding to the enjoyment of driving a Porsche. These steering wheel controls are supplemental to the Tiptronic's standard dual-range console. And Porsche says that this update can be retrofitted to the 1994 version of the 993 as well.
After I drove the Ruf 993 prototype with the EKS I was so impressed with the operation of this combination of an automatic clutch and a manual six-speed transmission that I would now be willing to try to defend it in one of those macho conversations. You can bet that if I can afford it that I will try one in the "Project 911" that I am building. You loose absolutely no performance, yet you don't have to bother with a clutch. Its operation is computer controlled and it is definitely more consistent than most drivers and I would guess a lot smarter than some, including me. I honestly didn't miss the clutch pedal at all and only poked at the clutchless floor once and that was one time when I pulled to a stop to photograph one of the cars.
The Ruf EKS clutch system has been available since the Spring of 1992. Sixty EKS cars have been built and sold already and most of the cars that Ruf is building now are delivered with this option. Porsche also offers the EKS clutch system and has already built 20 3.6 911 Turbos with the EKS clutch system using their own five-speed transmissions. Porsche says that unfortunately this system will not be available for cars in the US because it has not been approved and they are concerned about product liability in the US market. Ruf will make his cars available here in the US with the EKS clutch and don't count this option out.
Most people who try any of the Porches which don't have a clutch pedal will say things like "I would consider one if I was going to do any serious city driving in a Porsche on a daily basis" But it seems even the drivers who do have to drive in heavy traffic on a daily basis never do opt for the clutchless driving, I think that it must just be that macho thing. The car that Stephan Roser, who works for Ruf, drives to work is a red Ruf RCT with the EKS clutch system and the Ruf six-speed transmission. Stefan Roser says that he loves it and he can make it talk. He commutes From his home in Stuttgart to Pfaffenhausen each day which is about 170 km (105 miles) each way and makes the trip in a little over an hour from door to door. He said that he has let a lot of race drivers drive the cars with EKS and they have all said that they like them and would like a car with that system for their own street use.
There are no losses through a torque converter like there was with the Sportomatic and with the more contemporary Tiptronic automatic transmission because the EKS uses a clutch and does not have a torque converter. Even with the Tiptronic S's new trick steering wheel shift mechanism, I would still rather have Ruf's EKS system than the Tiptronic. The performance is improved because there is no clutch lag time. With the EKS you have both the performance and the fuel economy of the manual transmission. But you have the advantage of being able to shift as fast as you can move your hand and you don't have to worry about coordinating that with the movement of your left foot.
One thing that I particularly like about Ruf's EKS installation was the vertically reading indicator in the lower part of the speedometer which tells you which gear you are in. I still have a little trouble in cars with six speed transmissions when I am just cruising along talking with my passenger I forget what gear I am in and this shift indicator is a great help for this.
The EKS system is sophisticated and there are a number of potential advantages over a conventional clutch. The clutch engagement is more precise than we can do by ourselves, so we will have less clutch wear. You cannot abuse the clutch as a lazy driver might with a normal foot activated clutch. If you miss a shift the computer will protect the engine by not engaging the clutch. The EKS system provides all of the advantages of being able to enjoy shifting gears without a clutch pedal in stop-and-go traffic or in high speed conditions. It is sporty yet comfortable, with flawless clutch engagement.
You can start out in first or second gear, but the computer wont let you start out in third. If you miss a shift on a down shift the will not engage, so the EKS will save you and your engine from yourself.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 08:27 PM
heck, lookin at the bus manual the auto tranny has a diff that looks like it could be flipped.. anyone torn one apart???? Capt????
So you think the Audi Fox/ VW Dasher auto might work?? tons of those around.
Posted by: jk76.914 Jul 31 2006, 08:48 PM
I pointed that out 13 posts ago. The manual even states which side to put the ring gear on, which sure does imply it can go either way....
Good question- has anybody tried it?
Posted by: WildWheeler Jul 31 2006, 09:28 PM
Hey Gang,
Just wanted to add my two cents as I am following this post very closely.
I am extremely interested in finding an automatic solution that won't break the bank.
I am in a wheelchair and require hand controls, so the only option for me is an auto or semi auto.
I owned two 914's before my accident and would really like to get another real soon.
Please keep this conversation going!
Thank you Grasshopper for trying to make this work.
Thanks for all the help everyone!
Cheers,
Scott
Posted by: grasshopper Jul 31 2006, 09:31 PM
Wow, more of an inspiration to get this done. I WILL DO THIS FOR YOU. You WILL be able to drive a 914 again. On the other hand, IM SO FUCHING CONFUSED!!!!!
Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 31 2006, 11:18 PM
I pointed that out 13 posts ago.
The manual even states which side to put the ring gear on, which sure does imply it can go either way....Good question- has anybody tried it?
yep, "Insert the differential assembly into hte transmission case. The ring gear goes on the left side and must be in mesh with the drive pinion."
Case in pics looks like the diff can go either way.
Posted by: swood Jul 31 2006, 11:58 PM
Alot of yinging and yanging here. Cool project bro and one I'd like to be part of. Like I said, I might drop by shortly and see how things are going. Its kinda cool to try to get your mom to drive a Teener. Looks like you have a huge mountain to climb and alot of different directions to go.
Gluck!
Posted by: type47 Aug 3 2006, 11:51 AM
i just noticed in one of my repair manuals for the 914 that there looks like alot of info that you might find useful in one of the chapters. the manual is a "Lash" which is a newer version, i think, of the old Clymer manual
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)