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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ GT Brass Oil lines
Posted by: kckoch Aug 15 2006, 10:26 AM
Any body know a source where I can have these made? Does anyone make repros?
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Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 10:29 AM
Guy out East that did Pete's car makes them... don't remember his name. Martin can chime in with the info. From what I understand, he may make them "occasionally" and in batches.
Posted by: grasshopper Aug 15 2006, 10:30 AM
Hmm.. It looks like it would be possible to make you own.... Anyone have pipe sizes?
Posted by: brant Aug 15 2006, 10:31 AM
deja vu'
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 10:31 AM
Precision Automotive Restorations in Mass. actually. Mark Allin?
Posted by: Mueller Aug 15 2006, 10:39 AM
Hmm.. It looks like it would be possible to make you own.... Anyone have pipe sizes?
call me silly, but if he wanted to make them himself he wouldn't be asking where to get them pre-made
You might see if this is something Chuck from Elephant Racing would be interested in making. I know he makes some nice cooling lines for 911 using tubes that have "ribs" for your cooling pleasure.
That is a nice install in that picture...........
Posted by: grasshopper Aug 15 2006, 10:45 AM
Hmm.. It looks like it would be possible to make you own.... Anyone have pipe sizes?
call me silly, but if he wanted to make them himself he wouldn't be asking where to get them pre-made
I was just saying for myself. I wanted some brass lines like this, and never really thought I could make them myself untill I saw this.
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 10:50 AM
It's been on his table for a while now. I guess not enough interest.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 15 2006, 10:50 AM
ribs for your cooling pleasure LOL
+1 mike....
Posted by: RON S. Aug 15 2006, 11:23 AM
I tried to make a set of brass lines when I was putting my -6 together.
I bought several 6' lengths of formable brass,and formed them all.
I filled them with low melt lead,and a tube bender.I just never could get'em to form w/o kinks in the corners. 
I prpbably spent more in tubing than the job was worth.
I gave up and just went w/-16 startlite hose.
Ron
Posted by: Brian_Boss Aug 15 2006, 11:32 AM
Ron:
What type of tubing bender were you using?
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 11:36 AM
Contact your local music store and ask them who repairs their brass instruments (trumpet, tuba, baritones etc.). I called one once and they said they could do it of they had the specs.
Posted by: lapuwali Aug 15 2006, 11:39 AM
That's very similar to what I was thinking of in terms of making a "trombone" style oil cooler that ran under the rockers. Just form a loop at the forward end. That finned tubing Chuck has would be excellent for that.
Posted by: Engman Aug 15 2006, 11:39 AM
Trick is to bend it with frozen water in the inside so that it forms properly - but you aleady knew that.
M
Posted by: kckoch Aug 15 2006, 01:23 PM
Precision Automotive Restorations in Mass. actually. Mark Allin?
I don't suppose you have contact info? If they do them in batches, anyone interested?
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 01:28 PM
You are correct in not supposing that I have contact info. 
I'm sure ChicagoPete does....
Might be interested... depends upon the price.
Posted by: smdubovsky Aug 15 2006, 01:35 PM
Ditto Erics comments: "Might be interested... depends upon the price"
I'd vote NOT to use the finned lines.
SMD
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Aug 15 2006, 01:43 PM
Engman,
A better way to bend tubing is packing with sand. Be sure to tamp it down real tight before bending. Lots easier than frozen water. Be sure to blow out the sand when finished & flush clean.
Tom
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 02:08 PM
Hmmmmmm... didn't I sell you an original S bumper, fiberglass a few years back??
Howdy!
Now, now Tom... really?
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 02:09 PM
Not a fin fan either...
Posted by: BenT Aug 15 2006, 02:15 PM
Guy out East that did Pete's car makes them... don't remember his name. Martin can chime in with the info. From what I understand, he may make them "occasionally" and in batches.
I'm up for some smoothies depending on price. Fins look awful after a short time. Plus crub build between them.
BenT B. Rasspipes
Posted by: ChicagoPete Aug 15 2006, 02:30 PM
Yes, Mark made mine and has all the measurements off an exact GT set...
Mark Allin of Precision Automotive Restoration 978.463.8144
Hard to give you guys a guesstimate on price, they were at least $500 2 years ago, BUT, you have to also figure that I was paying him at shop rates for fabrication as he did the WHOLE car for me. What he will sell these parts for outright and if he has the time to fab some up I can't answer that question.
Peter
Posted by: brer Aug 15 2006, 02:40 PM
Not a fin fan either...
why? They do the job better than smooth.
looks?
Posted by: smdubovsky Aug 15 2006, 02:46 PM
looks?
Yup. Plus, w/ a cooler up front they are unnecessary.
SMD
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 15 2006, 02:59 PM
Period looks
Real cooler up front
Fins get smashed
Fins get full of stuff
Posted by: BenT Aug 15 2006, 03:14 PM
Period looks
Real cooler up front
Fins get smashed
Fins get full of stuff
Eggs Zack Lee my sentiment. Anyeone seen the Classic Range Rover tranny coolers? It's just a pipe with coils upon coils of spring wound wire. Looks sturdy.
BenT
Posted by: kckoch Aug 15 2006, 04:12 PM
Yes, Mark made mine and has all the measurements off an exact GT set...
Mark Allin of Precision Automotive Restoration 978.463.8144
Hard to give you guys a guesstimate on price, they were at least $500 2 years ago, BUT, you have to also figure that I was paying him at shop rates for fabrication as he did the WHOLE car for me. What he will sell these parts for outright and if he has the time to fab some up I can't answer that question.
Peter
Thanks Peter,
Mark is ready to make some and would prefer to make 3 or more in a batch. They are smooth, and are just as the picture above. $650 a set.
I'm in, now I need two more. Any takers?
Posted by: michel richard Aug 15 2006, 04:20 PM
I made my own out of hadware-store steel tubing. Had to make a couple of mandrels to be abloe to get semi-smooth bends. They came out ok, I think, but it was a lot of work.
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Posted by: michel richard Aug 15 2006, 04:21 PM
and:
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Posted by: Mueller Aug 15 2006, 05:24 PM
Hmm.. It looks like it would be possible to make you own.... Anyone have pipe sizes?
not sure of the size, I'm sure someone has to have it written down
McMaster-Carr has 1" OD brass alloy 260 for about $50 for a 6' length (.065 wall which might be overkill, .032 is about half the price) they mention that is not bendable however one might be able to anneal it...
Posted by: michel richard Aug 15 2006, 06:56 PM
My stuff is one inch od.
Pretty much the maximum that will fit under the rockers, I think.
Michel
Posted by: kckoch Aug 15 2006, 07:39 PM
I have thought long and hard about making them myself, and decided to let someone else do the guessing. He uses the factory GT specs, a little expensive, but they are the real deal. He only makes a batch about every two years. He said that the stock (brass) he uses, he ordered 9+ months ago, and it just arrived. He planned on just waiting until he had enough interest.
Any takers? I still need two more?
Posted by: ChicagoPete Aug 16 2006, 07:06 AM
Kevin and others...The question you have to ask yourself, "How authentic do you want to look?" "What are you trying to achieve with your car?"
The point being...yes the the cooler lines are cool, but, honestly, on a previous big six that I owned I ran Aeroquip fittings and braided lines to a Mazda comp cooler and that worked just as well as these!
Where do you draw the line...between cool parts and what works just as well? I have at least $5000 into my oil sytem. Shroud, 906 cooler, authentic fabbed flex lines, hard brass lines, oil filler neck, blau cap, magnesium 911S thermostat, oil pressure relief valve, and the overflow tank in the trunk. I wanted everything to look as authentic as I could! And for standard 914 guy all of this is lost unless you have an appreciation for true 914-6 GT racing equipment.
By no means am I trying to take away business from Mark. For my money the cool factor goes way farther on something you can see. Maybe a well made engine lid, GT door panels, or even better an authentic GT steering wheel with the extra padding and the proper horn button.
Peter
Posted by: fin Aug 16 2006, 07:26 AM
Not a fin fan either...
Fin gets smashed
Fin gets full of stuff
Um, are you guys trying to tell me something? And you haven't even met me.....
Cheers,
FIN
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 16 2006, 09:44 AM
Shhhhhhhhhhh Fin's here...
Morning Gents... I'm close on this one. Still pondering. One side says there's nothing wrong with some nice braided lines. The other side says... I spent $300 on some used 911 hard lines. $650's not all that bad for a custom one-off reproduction of the originals.
I don't know how to describe it... I just like the idea of having hard lines down there.
Close to throwing my hat in the ring.
Posted by: BenT Aug 16 2006, 10:40 AM
I don't know how to describe it... I just like the idea of having hard lines down there.
Hmmmmm
So that's how you guys like it in Utah?As for the brAss lines, $500 already seemed to me a good upper limit. I mean these are repros!? $650 might only be a hair away but enough to buy a small toupee's worth of other goodies.
The braided lines is starting to sound cool.
BenT
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 16 2006, 11:04 AM
I had Chuck warmed up to make some 9146 hard lines. I highly suggest we go to someone who can knock these out repeatedly on a CNC tubing bender.
Armando also has a LA connection for making the lines. He made several sets when he was working on his car.
B
Posted by: pete-stevers Aug 16 2006, 11:06 AM
i am running copper not brass...regrigeration grade soft copper is easy to work with, and work hardens over time....but bends easily without pinching.
and a good silver solder keeps it all togther....and i also use a double braidhosing to get to the cooler and from the engine and to dampen vibrations.....and along the longs it is straight thick walled copper....it took us two evenings and a roll of soft copper and a few pipe fittings
Posted by: maf914 Aug 16 2006, 11:19 AM
i am running copper not brass...regrigeration grade soft copper is easy to work with, and work hardens over time....but bends easily without pinching.
and a good silver solder keeps it all togther....and i also use a double braidhosing to get to the cooler and from the engine and to dampen vibrations.....and along the longs it is straight thick walled copper....it took us two evenings and a roll of soft copper and a few pipe fittings
That sounds reasonable to me. I have a friend who used copper for the fixed runs and flex lines for the connections without problems. Copper does work harden, almost all metal does, but I don't think it's an issue unless the tubing is connected to a vibration source such as an engine or suspension member. Strapping it to the longs and fender wells shouldn't be a problem. At least that's my opinion.
Posted by: lapuwali Aug 16 2006, 11:30 AM
Aluminum is lighter than any of these, forms easily, and sheds heat well.
Posted by: smdubovsky Aug 16 2006, 11:52 AM
I said I was interested, but $650 is a little steep. If it was closer to $500 I'd be in. Should we contact Brads sources to see if we can get a run of something cheaper?
SMD
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 16 2006, 11:53 AM
and.... is used on ALL Porsche 993's/986/996/997
oil lines and water lines... all aluminum.
B
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 16 2006, 11:55 AM
Chuck has the experience. I was going to foot the bill for several sets to be made by "Elephant Racing" New 9146 engine hard lines and GT style cooler lines with or without fins.
Chuck and I have been spending quite a bit of time at the track together.
B
Posted by: sixnotfour Nov 7 2009, 12:58 PM
http://www.elephantracing.com/oilhandling/914coolerkit/914plumbingkit.htm
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Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 8 2009, 12:22 AM
Our website is a little behind.
We now have the kit available with a front extension that arches over the wheel with hard pipe, up to the front.
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Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 8 2009, 12:24 AM
more
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Posted by: SirAndy Nov 8 2009, 01:07 AM
Those look nice!
Andy
Posted by: carr914 Nov 8 2009, 06:17 AM
They look nice, but I don't know if they are $1,600 nice
Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 8 2009, 03:46 PM
If you include the front wheel well extensions it goes about $2k.
What we set out to achieve was a super clean solution that looks and functions as if it was a production factory system, had they actually delivered up a production solution. I think we hit our mark.
While not inexpensive, the kit is complete and inclusive of stainless mounting brackets, OEM porsche thermostat with pressure bypass, hoses, scavenge pipe, templates for holes, etc. All fittings and hose ends are 30mm as used by Porsche on all 2.4 and larger sixes. And the scavenge pipe fits both heat exchangers and headers.
Posted by: lagunero Nov 8 2009, 05:09 PM
I saw this set up at the last GAF and it's exactly what I was looking for. Since I had already installed a FMC, I spoke with Chuck and he helped me with what I needed. I'll post pics later this week.
It's worth it. If you haven't plumbed anything or like me, what the right look, it's worth the bucks.
Posted by: sixnotfour Nov 8 2009, 06:07 PM
definately a pro set up.
chuck how does that coupling work near the jack post ?
Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 8 2009, 10:59 PM
Here is some detail on the couplng. Note the hard lines thread through above the jack receiver, leaving plenty of room for the rocker cover down low. No clearance issues.
The tubes have a bead roll on the ends to retain the hose section securely. The hose allows for chassis flex and easy install/removal.
The hose is rated for oil and temperature, and we cap the ends to trim them out cleanly. The clamps are heavy duty, not wimpy worm drives.
Note too the grommets where the hard lines pass through the rocker ribs. This prevents any rattling or potential wear on the tubes. Grommets also rated for tempurature.
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Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 8 2009, 11:33 PM
Here is the bracket that supports the thermostat and back of the pipes.
Stainless with rubber isolation around the tubes.
There are 3 brackets total. 1 at the thermostat, 2 in the front well.
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Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 10 2009, 05:14 PM
Here is a shot of the thermostat mounting in the rear wheel well. Note the support bracket, which attaches to the existing suspension mounting hole.
This setup keeps the tstat out from under the car, easy plumbing underneath to connect the tank and engine case. Everything is tucked up tight, protected, and out of the way. No need to snake hoses down under the suspension, nothing vulnerable.
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Posted by: carr914 Nov 10 2009, 08:40 PM
definately a pro set up.
Chuck, sorry if it sounded like a slam in my prior post. It definately looks Pro-Built.
Question though - Why did you build it for the passenger side of the car vs the Drivers side which would be "Correct" to some people?
T.C.
Posted by: RON S. Nov 11 2009, 10:50 AM
I have seriously looked into making my own set of -16 size brass lines for my /6r since this post was originally posted.
I want the finned brass for mine, and found that I could get the material.
Wolverine tube will sell it, and in Europe it can be had from Chrystin tube.
I have a set fabbed up and was ready to send them to be professionally cnc formed, and the vendor didn't wanna touch it.
I did talk to Chuck about buying raw material, but he was reluctant, and said that he only rec'd material once a year.
I assume that the lines he's selling are -12. which unfortunately would be too small for my app.
Good to see the thread is still alive.
thanks,
Ron
Posted by: Chuck Moreland Nov 11 2009, 11:39 AM
A number of considerations drove the passenger side decision.
The tank being on the driver side would not allow the type of tstat mounting we did. Even if we put the tstat somewhere else, the plumbing to and around the tank would have been crowded and convoluted. Already you have the tank-to-case oil line to contend with, then to compound this with pipes going to the front and the tstat is just messy.
The front rib beneath the rocker panel is not the same on both sides. The passenger side is bigger and has room to squeak the pipes inside it. The driver side is shallower and would not allow this.
The original GT solution is definitely full of retro-coolness if you are building a faithful GT replica. But it looks like an add-on put together by a raceteam (eg. hoses through the footwell, chopping the rocker ribs, crowded hose routing front and rear). Our goal was not to replicate the GT system, but rather view it as we think the factory would have - as a prototype to be refined into a production solution.
We were striving for a GT inspired solution, developed into a production level system. That means minimal cutting of the car, no hoses in the cabin, no ground clearance issues, neat roomy hose/tube routing, clean factory appearance.
Posted by: 9146BRUCE Aug 16 2011, 05:15 PM
Hi Eric did you ever get the hard lines made.
Bruce
Posted by: Eric_Shea Aug 17 2011, 01:22 AM
Prototype set is done. From what I understand the buck (which is an actual 914 longitudinal) had to be moved from the shop where it was. We have about 6 orders deep right now... I'm trying to get a date myself. I'll keep everyone posted on what becomes of it.
Posted by: JmuRiz Aug 17 2011, 08:06 AM
Wish I had $2k to spend on lines, that elephant system is very cool and clean.
Then again, I'm not even sure I'll need a front cooler for a 2.7.
Posted by: Socalandy Aug 17 2011, 07:28 PM
Chucks kit looks sweet and includes everything you need, not just the lines.
It will also work with the Setrab cooler I was planning on using. Funny that I was just looking at this setup today planning whats needed for the install. I would like to hear what a group buy would save us and how many orders we would need!!
I'm ready to buy a solution ![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: db9146 Aug 17 2011, 08:56 PM
Eric, what sets are you working on and how much are they?
Posted by: sixnotfour Aug 17 2011, 09:05 PM
If you want factory GT style wait, If you need a great system turn key ?
Buy the elephant kit.
Posted by: Socalandy Aug 17 2011, 09:25 PM
based on that I may wait but how long are we talking about? I'm working full steam on my resto hoping for RRC 2012
Posted by: sixnotfour Jul 12 2012, 11:58 AM
Yours are on the way ,, finally, Bruce up next
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