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Posted by: jimkelly Sep 6 2006, 09:00 PM

by a buddy of mine


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Posted by: Rider914 Sep 6 2006, 09:02 PM

Cool, give us the specs and more pictures!

Posted by: Mueller Sep 6 2006, 09:12 PM

I'm guessing that big box is the transfer case?!?!?!?

that is one way to avoid having to have an expensive 930 gear box

Posted by: alpha434 Sep 6 2006, 09:15 PM

Argh!!!! Strait axles!!!!! Eck!

Posted by: 9146986 Sep 6 2006, 09:21 PM

You don't need much when going exclusively in a straight line!

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 6 2006, 09:26 PM

more pics ...

http://www.pbase.com/jimkelly/glenns_914

Criticism welcome - with explanation more welcome : )

Tomorrow night he puts his efforts to the test on the Sumerduck Dragstrip in VA.

Jim

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 6 2006, 09:41 PM

ok... the dual diff thing is stupid scary......

welded diffs or they wouldnt spin..

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 6 2006, 09:46 PM

that is.... strange. very cool, what it type of times is it expected to run?

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Sep 6 2006, 09:47 PM

TWIN PUMPKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????? your buddy needs a hospital......

ultimate hillbilly transaxle... this wins the prize....


Stand way back when the shrapnel starts to fly..............

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 6 2006, 09:54 PM

all I know is he was winning races with his custom 901 tranny but got tired of being taken off the line - so this effort is primarily to improve 0-60 foot times -as I understand it.

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 6 2006, 10:22 PM

I've studied the photos for about ten minutes. I don't understand how the suspension works. The 4 link is standard drag race issue, but connected to the transfer box that is connected in the center to the transmission that doesn't move? That transmission is going to explode when he dumps it.

Posted by: bondo Sep 6 2006, 10:34 PM

Wow. More proof that anything can be done if you're persistent. Wasn't there someone on here a while back wanting to put a powerglide in his V8 914 that described something like this?

I'm thinking the life of that chain is going to be limited.

Edit: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=42161. Sounds like the same car.

Posted by: Boojum Sep 7 2006, 12:17 AM

Yeah, not only that, but even if it dosen't immediately self-destruct, all that mechanical hubbly jubbly will just serve to rob power and add weight. But it's pretty creative, though, gotta admit.

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 7 2006, 06:49 AM

I asked my buddy how he mounted is engine and transfer case - this is his reply.

"They are both solid mounted. The connection between the transfer and
transmission will allow radial movement to allow for flex that might occur
in the chassis due to engine torque. There is no provision for longitudinal
movement. I hope I don't have any movement in this plane. Will find out
tonight. GP"

Posted by: Mike T Sep 7 2006, 07:31 AM

The rear suspension is a DeDion design. See the "upside down vee" looking rectangular tube structure? That connects the 2 (!) differentials together. It will act like a live axle that just arches up over the transmission. It also has a 4-bar drag car trailing arm setup and a Panhard bar to control lateral movement. It's an OK design except for the fierce amount of unsprung weight. Looks like enough room for a short driveshaft between each differential and the transfer case.

Mike T

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 7 2006, 07:35 AM

yes - that is correct - a short drive shaft runs from each side of the transfer case to each pumpkin.

Posted by: Kerrys914 Sep 7 2006, 08:45 AM

Have him bring that to the ECC on the 16th.. That would be cool to see

Posted by: URY914 Sep 7 2006, 09:14 AM

Being that the forces are different in drag racing than road racing, I don't know if he needs more tubing or not, but I'd add some diagonal bracing anyway.

Posted by: andys Sep 7 2006, 09:41 AM

Here's one I thought I'd share with you. This guy is putting 1000HP through this setup.

Andys


Attached File(s)
 1000HP_Trans.doc ( 242.5k ) Number of downloads: 168

Posted by: Mike T Sep 7 2006, 11:59 AM

Cool. What is that going in?

I saw a similar lighter duty version of that in a Kitcar called a Zara about 10 yrs ago. I'll see if I can get the pics scanned and add them here.

Mike T

Posted by: messix Sep 7 2006, 12:16 PM

maybe a spool, not welded spiders.

Posted by: maf914 Sep 7 2006, 12:19 PM

I was thinking DeDion too. It looks vaguely like the setup from the Chaparral 2H, which was probably the only Chaparral that was a dud. Caterham used a DeDion for many years on their higher priced Caterham Seven models.

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 7 2006, 02:18 PM

Ok, I understand how the crazy 2 diff car with transfer chains works, but I am still working on the details on the belt drive car....anyone care to explain?

-Britain




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Posted by: messix Sep 7 2006, 02:50 PM

you gotta be blond!

engine drives tranny, tranny drives driveshaft, driveshaft drives rear diff, rear diff drives gilmer belts, gilmer belts drive half shafts, half shafts drive wheels. duh!

Posted by: turboman808 Sep 7 2006, 04:23 PM

No more it's making me sick

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 7 2006, 07:09 PM

simpler than the chain thing....

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 7 2006, 07:32 PM

Just got back from the dragstrip to my buddy lay down some rubber. Stayed long enough for him to do 4 passes - it all held together - his 0-60 foot times were better than last year with 901 tranny but he may have lost a large fraction of a second in the long run due to all the extra weight.


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Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Sep 7 2006, 07:38 PM

Damn! I've never seen pink leopard print to baby blue fade look sooo good. Sometimes it's not the destination that is important, but how much fun you have getting there.

Posted by: URY914 Sep 7 2006, 07:44 PM

How many body kits are on that thing???

Posted by: Mike T Sep 8 2006, 07:58 AM

Here is another version of the drive belt "transaxle". Text says it uses dragster parts. Supercharger pulleys and belts?

Posted by: URY914 Sep 8 2006, 08:18 AM

That looks like a much better way to do it.Simple and light.

That chain thing on the other one scares me. Too many moving parts, bearings, shafts, etc...

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Sep 8 2006, 02:57 PM

Why a belt, uhm, drive? Seems like an over-complication.

Posted by: Boojum Sep 8 2006, 03:39 PM

Why? It actually makes damn good sense. The supercharger on a Top Fuel dragster uses a good portion of the 6000-8000 horsepower the engine puts out. I've heard that it can take up to a thousand horsepower just to drive the supercharger on a Top Fuel car... And you know how fast that blower is expected to take to spin up from 2,000 RPM idle to 9000 RPM?

I don't know exactly, but it sure is a violent thing, and that belt takes the abuse, plus slowing the mass of the supercharger down when the run is over, which is just as bad, if not worse, as the acceleration to top speed.

It's hard to get that kind of performance out of a chain, and the belt is more efficient at doing its thing, to boot! It's gotta be more cost effective to do something like this than buying a Porsche gear box, or Hewland, or ZF, or Mendeola, and then hacking it in so it fits, and it means you can use off the shelf parts when it decides to break. Plus, if you wanted, you could change pulley diameter to add a little flexability to your setup.

I'm impressed. It's KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) incarnate.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Sep 8 2006, 03:47 PM

I was more curious as to why one would opt for belts/chains when using axles would appear simpler. Now I realize that the tranny being used isn't a TRANSAXLE so that somewhat makes the drive shaft routing understandable. I wasn't questioning the belt strength as many autos/motorcycles use belts and that technology has come a long way.

Posted by: andys Sep 8 2006, 04:05 PM

Yeah, MikeT, that's a way better pic.

Reason for all this is to be able to facilitate a nice beefie trans/R&P with standard parts, etc. I think it's actually a tidy and unique solution.

Andys

Posted by: Boojum Sep 8 2006, 04:33 PM

Air Cooled Nut: Ah, misunderstood what you were getting at. This method has the same basic effect of a transaxle, though.

I think the air ride and A-arm setup in those photos is pretty cool also.

Posted by: byndbad914 Sep 8 2006, 05:11 PM

crazy looking, but at least this would have way less unsprung weight than hanging a diff at each wheel. Actually looking at it, it really isn't that bad an idea, the 3" blower belts are uber strong, and you could set the engine forward a little, squeeze it in with a powerglide and put a 914 in the 8s with a strong V8. crazy with such a short wheelbase tho'. Maybe stretch the wb 6" so it wouldn't go too outta proportion, everything would fit, section front and rear fender areas to make up the 6". Lots of work for what I would consider no good reason, but to each his own! Look at the mess I created in my car

Posted by: byndbad914 Sep 8 2006, 05:24 PM

btw- the windsheild has an 8.98 index (I am assuming that is what that means). Was that 1/8-mile or 1/4-mile track. I assume 1/8, but ya never know.

Posted by: Mike T Sep 8 2006, 05:46 PM

Figure a 930 transaxle, adapter etc at , what?, 5k? I've heard that figure. If you have machine shop access and talents maybe you could build one for less. Donno.

There is a "shorty Powerglide" available that would shorten the entire package to fit under a 914 rear for sure. The unit pictured has a Richmond 5-speed and a Ford 9". I figure it would put the punkin at the rear bumper at best. Pretty heavy too. If I had the machines I would attempt it. Probly get away with a tubing bender, welder and a Bridgeport. Maybe a lathe.

Mike T.

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 8 2006, 05:49 PM

my buddy emailed me to say that his best time for the night on the 1/8 mile strip was a 7.95 @86 mph. Please email me any info you guys regarding the belt systems mentioned in this thread as my buddy is going back to the drawing board but has serious concerns with using belts. Jim

Posted by: JPB Sep 8 2006, 08:11 PM

JIM! Less is more. Have him get a good ZF transaxel and be done with all that tinkering and get some serious ponies out of that V8.

Wanna go fast, use up some Dineros not brain cells!

Posted by: Dad Roberts Sep 8 2006, 08:49 PM

Jim....you're guy needs to look at my setup. Much simpler and very durable. My old engine was based on a worn out smog motor bottom end. Couldn't even muster 300 horse on a chassis dyno. New bottom end has more compression, bigger cam, better valvetrain and runs GREAT. Old motor would knock down 8.20s all day in the eighth. Car weighs 2800 lbs. New motor should dip into 7s easily. Looking forward to my next passes. I haven't got any of my 60 foot slips handy, but with a 3.08 gear it hooks hard and will hardly break them loose.
Dad



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Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 8 2006, 09:24 PM

olds toronado correct?

Posted by: sww914 Sep 8 2006, 11:29 PM

Why not an Olds Toronado or Cadillac Eldorado tranny? Bolts right up to Chevy Stuff, I think.
The chain thing looks like too much stuff to break, and too many changes of direction of the power. Both the belts and chains scare me because if one side lets go, you're going in that direction really fast all of a sudden.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 9 2006, 12:00 AM

yea, it's pretty easy to spend other peoples money

i'm pretty sure he's looked down that path... maybe you have the $5,000 to $7,000 for a one and he don't...wanna give him a loan??? hahahaha

Posted by: JPB Sep 9 2006, 09:45 AM

Me eats Craft Dinners also.LOL

Posted by: Dad Roberts Sep 9 2006, 04:05 PM

Yes....mine is an Oldsmobile setup.Way to go AAaron.....you get ANOTHER A . The way he has basically back-halfed the car it would be very simple, especially with the 4 bar setup. The Chebby stuff will bolt up , but with some small adaptors. The Toro tranny is actually called a Turbo 425. Just a Turbo 400 that is a bit confused (sits backwards now). It's still chain driven, but with a 3 inch wide chain. Biggest problem with this setup would probably be the choice of gear ratios. Originally I thought you could only get the 3.08s that came with mine, but I didn't realize that the motorhomes that came with that front drive setup came with 3.23s. Nowadays with technology being what it is you could probably do better.
Dad

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 9 2006, 05:18 PM

thanks.

who makes the adaptors?

isn't the toronado a big block?

would the turbo 425 work with a small block chevy or only big block?

got any pics of the engine bay and how your set up mates to the axles?

jim

Posted by: Dad Roberts Sep 11 2006, 10:21 AM

Adaptors should be available through any major trans shops. Just a couple of small ears to adapt the bolt holes.
Yes it is a big block but the trans can be adapted to basically any small or big block.It has what they call the BOP (Buick,Olds,Pontiac) pattern.
I have a couple but not very good.The Toro/Eldo drive flanges are about 6 inches in diameter, and I made a 1/2 inch plate adaptor and drilled it for the VW CV . The adaptors were very simple, Toro pattern and VW pattern with clearance for the CV to work. I originally had the VW axles narrowed, but they were done incorrectly and didn't hold up. I hooked up with Moser Engineering and had them use 9 inch Ford axle stock and spline it for VW. Problem solved....almost 20 years later and no axle failure.
Dad



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Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 11 2006, 10:41 AM

more pics dad!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Sep 11 2006, 11:21 AM

WHOA. I was 13 or so when that pic was taken. I recall the shop space!!!

B

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 11 2006, 01:18 PM

thanks for the latest pic and info.

jim

Posted by: jimkelly Oct 16 2006, 11:52 AM

update ...

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedoxu/glenn_short.mpg

my buddy changed gear ratios in the transfer case, dropped tire pressure and did some cam adjustments and now he is .04 sec from breaking into the 6's in the 1/8 mile - aka - his goal for the project : )

Thursday 19 Oct may be the day he reaches his goal?