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Posted by: vesnyder Sep 20 2006, 04:56 PM

Just got my Excellence magazine this month and they report on the values of 914's and the news is good - especially if you are an owner! I was surprised to see the values he puts on some of the cars - even the so-so ones (as he puts it). I know both the condition and location determine the ultimate value of the car, but thanks to boards like this the interest remains high, and the values even higher!

Posted by: JPB Sep 20 2006, 05:15 PM

I figured since they will run out of parts soon, the prices will go through the roof!!

Upon such great news, its time for tha CRAZY BANANA DANCE!!!!

Posted by: bondo Sep 20 2006, 05:34 PM

The values are probably based on the fact that even a so-so car probably has a front targa seal.

Posted by: GWN7 Sep 20 2006, 07:30 PM

I just got Sept's issue (and Oct...the same day)...Haven't got thru those yet and I have another one to read.....

Posted by: ptravnic Sep 20 2006, 07:39 PM

For us non subscribers, can you scan the page w/the values? Or is there some copyright issue there?

-pt

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 20 2006, 08:07 PM

Its due to more and more people ruining good cars by installing radiators into them....

Nothing in the Excellence valuations applies to bastardized 914s!

Keep cuttinem' up guys, your making the others that remain unmolested or correctly modified more valuable!

This one is sure to piss some people off

Posted by: grasshopper Sep 20 2006, 08:37 PM

I'm not really sure that this is a good thing. For an owner that doesn't plan on buying another one, then yes. I think that the days of picking up a cheap parts car are quickly going away. Its not rare to see a really nice 914 going for 13-15K anymore. A few years ago, that was unbelievable. I enjoy the fact that these cars are not (too) expensive to maintain and modify, but I am glad that prices are going up to.

Posted by: mikez Sep 20 2006, 08:44 PM

Frankly....I don't see those prices on the west coast. But then again I rarely see any "pristine" 73 2.0s either....

Prices are going up....but it the beaters that every crackhead thinks is worth 6K....

Posted by: boxstr Sep 20 2006, 09:43 PM

Mike did you sell that 70 1.7 project 914 for $6000. yet??
CCL

Posted by: mikez Sep 20 2006, 09:58 PM

Hardly....I see them them for 2-4K......

Posted by: turboman808 Sep 20 2006, 10:14 PM

HAHA I think I must have gotten ripped off then. I paid extra for a molested one

Posted by: thewheel69 Sep 20 2006, 10:53 PM

After dreadfully selling off a '73 Red 2.0 to a Kanuk in hard times... I now have a ' 74 1.8 SoCal original Ravenna green that I will faithfully restore to her original origins... and a '75 Malaga 2.0 that will become my next track Beotch...

Keep em' running wild kids...

I absolutely love the idea of riding around and gittin sideways looks and enjoying filling up every other week or so while still putting my foot in it to get'er sideways once in a while... Nothing short of an Enzo Italian job could swade me from my love of 914's

These cars rock...

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Sep 20 2006, 11:06 PM

Gee... I thought I was just being a cheapskate keeping everything dead stock....

Soon my plan will fall into place.. I'll own the only emissions legal '76 in California.

...........moo hooo haw haw haw haw....

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 21 2006, 05:05 AM

I suppose if I ever find a pristine 914 I might think about buying it. Since I don't think they exist around here I just keep racing the living piss out of the one I got.
Maybe I can develop a pedigree for the car by whipping up on everything with 4 wheels. Most of my autocross buddies either hate me or want to buy my car.
The new engine I'm building will really piss them off. AND now they won't be able to afford it.

Posted by: blitZ Sep 21 2006, 05:33 AM

Well, there are pros and cons with the increased prices, like everything else.

I purchased my 914 because it is a fairly inexpensive hobby car, which is an absolute blast to drive and work on.

However, if prices continue to rise, perhaps fewer project cars with a little rust will get hacked up as the people who know will realize their worth. You don't see people hacking up a 356 body because it has a little rust.

Posted by: Lawrence Sep 21 2006, 05:44 AM

I'm very interested in a scanned copy of the article... and also (if any) Reader's Sales Reports for 914s in the new issue... for my current insurance company battle.

I'm a subscriber, but I get my copies VERY late.

Cheers,
Rusty

Posted by: WRX914 Sep 21 2006, 04:05 PM

Hmmmm... I for one am not pissed. How can I be? At the German Auto Fest, every entry for Mid Engine Mania was an aircooled 914 with the exception of mine which according to you is worthless due to the fact that it is a "bastarized" because it is cut up, won best of show. This was voted by the owners of the cars, not the owner of type 4 engine builders. While I am not "pissed", I will offer you a little business advise.

It is never a good idea to bash your competition... Doesn't look good.

Posted by: RS22b Sep 21 2006, 04:24 PM

Excellent! this means that after dropping the $20K in the last 2 years in the car might actually pay off in the long run.

Granted i am never selling my teener to anyone, EVAR!

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 21 2006, 04:25 PM

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 04:57 PM

If I cared I wouldn't have posted it...

The guys that even consider a radiator for their car never even come close to calling me anyway...

Keep creating "Fieros" and I'll continue to bash away and make true statements. Look at barrett Jackson, how many bastardized cars do you see sell there for big bucks compared to their original counterparts??

The 914 is the "356 of tomorrow".. 10 years ago 356s were dirt cheap, now you won't find one for less than 20K unless its rotted away, the 914 is the same way..

I just really can't stand ANY car with a radiator, the only thing worse is a car that wasn't supposed to have one that had one shoehorned where it didn't belong.....

These days when you find someone that doesn't mind pissing off a few people to share his true feelings about something consider yourself lucky! I'm about as politically incorrect as I can be and if it costs me a few bucks so be it.... Its my money and I damn sure don't need any advice!

BTW_ I'm not pissed either, simply hardcore aircooled and refuse to drive anything else!

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 21 2006, 05:04 PM

conversions are great as long as they are air cooled IMHO

Long ago the 914 WAS a cheapass platform to customize not anymore. Just too few really nice ones left as you see them selling for 12-19k, 4's mind you.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 05:25 PM

Yep...
The cool thing is this conversation would not have happened two years ago... Things have changed drastically in the past couple of years for the 914..

I know of a certain article about 914 engines that might help it a lot too, if all works out well you guys will be seeing a 2270 for a 914 getting built in print in the next year... I won't be the one building it- the owner will be and you won't believe where it'll be!

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 21 2006, 05:29 PM

Pete is building his own engine!!!!

Put me on the roller lifter list!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 05:33 PM

Pete who??

Geoff, I **might** let you be a guinea pig- you are experienced enough to give ita whirl!

Posted by: SGB Sep 21 2006, 06:08 PM

Jake- if you need faster service I can have my car to ya by, say, this weekend....


Geoff- I'm jellious.

Posted by: Rotary'14 Sep 21 2006, 07:41 PM

914s with radiators are not the only -14s that are hacked,, At GAF and other places I've seen many a 2.7 ~ 3.2 that has been hacked up to make room for oil coolers,, factory FI,, etc.
I hope you don't spare these folks your disdain Jake,, I respect your talents as a TIV enginge guru, but I dis-agree with your opinion.

I guess if I were in your business I would be bashing other power plants too,, it's good for business. Good thing I'm not a TIV engine builder. My little 1.3 rotary revs a HELL of a lot faster than the video you posted of the monster 356,, but I am comparing apples to oranges in your eyes. It was the engine in the inferior chassis Rx-7 that ended Porsche's winning streak in IMSA. Rotary's are sweet fun little motors. There's a post floating around here somewhere where an old german car magazine compared a stock 914 to a NSU rotary powered 914.

Since the value of our NARPs are shooting up,, perhaps we should just seal our cars away in sealed containers so our family members can sell them when we die, and god forbid that we drive them and have fun with them because it will also devalue the car. A stock 914 can be lotsa fun,, ( I have one too) But one with some BALLS (no matter what the engine) is a HELL of alot more fun.

Looks like I'm ranting,,,,,
I'm not pissed,, just had a bad day at work,,,,,

just my .02
-Rob

Posted by: porschecb Sep 21 2006, 08:28 PM

So if and when I sell my car it looks like I can will start over and still put more or as much in to it (if parts are still around) Oh! wait I can buy an RX7 or a Suby and drop a type 4 into it! Problem solved! Long live type 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (or six conversion)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 08:34 PM

Sorry to hear that.... Bad days suck!

Good day here, didn't see a watercooled car all day long!

Posted by: 914-8 Sep 21 2006, 08:36 PM

I agree with Jake's opinion.

Certainly, as time goes by, the relatively few original, stock configuration 914s in excellent condition are going to go UP in value. No question.

And, for every one that one of us "hacks" a radiator into - well, that's one less 914 that is ever going to be stock and original again!

That's just a fact.

That being said, who cares? 914-4s are still relatively cheap, plentiful cars, and aren't going to be big buck cars for a long, long, long time. Heck, you can still get a decent 356B driver for $15K.

Plus, what kinda nut buys a 914 as an investment? Mine is for FUN!

Posted by: Heeltoe914 Sep 21 2006, 09:50 PM

914 are going up slowly in value. But the fact is many of us have 2 or 3 914 because thay are easy to work on and cheap to play with compared to other sports cars.
I have a show car that will always stay stock.
A AX car that will see a few mods.
A factory 6 with a 3.2 and an oil cooler that has not affected the front pan, easy to go back to stock.
I feel any car can be taken back to stock with a little welding in of panels
But is it really important to bash over one mans vision of how he would like to power HIS car. How about we just enjoy the fact that we all love the same car.

Posted by: nbscooters Sep 21 2006, 10:13 PM

I made the tough effort of going to the store to spend the $4.99 and check it out for myself. For a non appearence 73 2.0 with FI and 20,000 miles on a BRAND NEW motor, (chassis has over 200,000 miles) I am stoked that the only other owner of the car is my dad.

Posted by: boxstr Sep 21 2006, 10:21 PM

Hell I have been saying the same thing Jake is saying right now when this club first started. I have been selling 914s for over 10 years. I said years ago the 914 is the future 356 as far as pricing and the fact that the cars are being cut up and crushed everyday, just drives the value up. I always said keep the sawzalls going it will only drive up the values of the 914as that are still here.
This isn't anything new, its just that people are starting to notice.

Posted by: Midtowner Sep 21 2006, 10:58 PM

Hmm, similar situation with me. '73 2.0 with FI, non-appearance, 89,000 original miles. Only other owner was my father.

Posted by: ppickerell Sep 21 2006, 11:09 PM

Haha Jake, you are the Jerry Springer of aircooled, allways willing to wade into the crowd punching away.

And he's subtle too!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 22 2006, 03:19 AM

Yeah, I was hoping to piss more people off!

These damn guys aren't playing fairly! get pissed!!!

Its not any fun unless you throw a chair in the ring, come on guys!!!

Posted by: Lawrence Sep 22 2006, 04:15 AM

I don't necessarily disagree with anyone who says that the price of (realtively) stock 914s is on the rise... but I do believe it's inflated right now, because of various factors.

The price will normalize over time - the market will determine true value. In the meantime, I hope that will someone PM me with a generous offer to scan a copy of the article for my insurance value...

Cheers,
Rusty
(paid-up Excellence subscriber)

Posted by: Hammy Sep 22 2006, 04:30 AM

Posted by: SGB Sep 22 2006, 05:56 AM

OK Jake - here is one: I LIKE my hydraulic cam.

Don't you?

Posted by: thomasotten Sep 22 2006, 06:23 AM

That's why I ordered my kit from Jake, the man has passion. Bastardizing with a radiator was never an option for me. I'm full-blooded German, so it was either a six or a 4, air cooled. But even if I wasn't German and had no heritage issues, why build a Fiero when you can buy one outright?

Posted by: 72914S Sep 22 2006, 10:26 AM

Well I have two `72 914`s one is near stock except it has `73 drive train,the other has a ford v6. Nether are running,PRETTY sure I dropped a valve on the 2056.The v6 ford was a flood victim.Now I`m not sure which one to rebuild first! For sure I WANT a "Engine by Jake" in Lil Red,but the v6 car just needs a transplant.So which one first ?It was going to be the air cooled one until I read Jake`s post about the new roller stuff. Damn !! Hey Jake I have a car For a test mule?

Posted by: tod914 Sep 22 2006, 12:17 PM

Can someone please scan and post the values

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 22 2006, 02:04 PM

This gets each time a new value article gets written. It's old news and very predictible. 914's will become much like the 356's that you could once have for cheap prices, but I think the 914's will be a percentage less than the 356's always. Back in 1991 I turned away from a 1964 356 with factory sunroof for $4999 (decent car, very little rust) at a dealer because for another $5k I could have a rusted out 1968 911L.

The cars rust away at crazy fast rates.

People do cut them up for mods, conversions and parts.

One small fender bender and insurance companies total them out.

All of you know what is happening, but it's not gonna happen tomorrow. More like 10-20 years.

Posted by: blitZ Sep 22 2006, 03:01 PM

NADA Guides has interesting values, not sure how they compare to Excellence numbers. These are for my zipcode, maybe less out west.

http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-22-1-5013-0-0-0&l=1&w=22&p=1&f=5014&c=13&m=1144&d=5175&y=1974&vi=84866&z=30039&da=-1

Posted by: anthony Sep 22 2006, 04:17 PM

I don't think 914-4s are overpriced. The fact that you can get a pretty nice 73-74 2L car for under $10K still makes it a budget classic.

What I see happening with 914s is that quality cars are on the rise and beater cars are selling where they were six years ago.

Posted by: aircooledboy Sep 22 2006, 04:35 PM

Hmmmmm....

You should probably sniff around your shop and try to figure out who has been posting under your screen name over the last few years here, because I have seen somebody pretending to be Jake Raby post no less than 3 times that in his opinion, if you weren't going to do a big TIV, the next best thing in a 914 is an SBC conversion.

Or, maybe you do just get a giggle from stirring the stromberg?

Posted by: StratPlayer Sep 23 2006, 03:13 AM

I'll scan it for you when i get home....but you might get home before the book gets to my place

(not Stratplayer)

Posted by: Twystd1 Sep 23 2006, 03:20 AM

Let me get this straight.

The longer my 914 "STAYS ON JACK STANDS" and does not incurr more miles on the drivetrain and chassis. And I can substantiate the mileage.

The more my car is worth...??????????

Fugit...... I am gunna make a mint not doing anything to my car.... Thank God for this report.

Cause logic now dictates I sit on my ass and do nothing more to my car.... Which has been my end result from the beginning.

Thankyou all for this info.... NO MORE GUILT..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEA...!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Twystd1

Posted by: StratPlayer Sep 23 2006, 03:25 AM

Yep that's called "progress"

Posted by: WRX914 Sep 25 2006, 12:06 PM

God,

No matter where you go, you are bound to find someone who disagrees with you... For instance, within the last three weeks I have been to GAF and RRC. I overheard a few highly respected people on this board saying that you build grenades, and don't ever consider buying your engines. Nothing against your product, as I never planned on buying your engines anyway.

Also, according to your infinate wisdom and slightly slanted version of reality, unless you are only rebuilding original engines that came in the 914 and rebuilding to stock specifications you too are bastardizing the car as well. Take for instance your reference to Barret Jackson. Do you really think that the vehicles such as a 70's Tornado are fetching incredible bids and have thier engines pushed to the limits? Hell no they don't. They are bone stock usually all the way down to the window sticker. Another example... a old Vette is worth a shitload more if it has the original engine (matching numbers) in it than one with a crate-engine or even the original engine that is modified the way you modify your unbelievable priced motors. Once you start to modify the engine, you are modifing the value. But you don't seem to want to share this information since your wallet could get thinner if you disclosed the whole truth. Since we are in such an inlightened mood, why don't you share your defeats along with your accomplishments? I always read your posts about head temps and long driving and yippie for your accomplishments. But what about all of your pissed off customers? Care to share those stories?

Club members, remember who this this is coming from. I have only been active in the club for about a year now... I seem to remember that Jake had all but written the 914 crowd off. Something about 914 owners financial bs. And now because it could benifit his pocketbook he is back, slamming the decisions of some members who decided to push the limits of what we want in OUR cars?

Don't you have a radio show to host? What about VW Trends? I would spend my time there if I were you...

Is that the chair you were looking for?

Posted by: BKLA Sep 25 2006, 12:27 PM

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2006, 12:38 PM

Damn- Looks like I FINALLY pissed someone off!

Mr. WRX,
I appreciate your reply..

Obviously if these people that say I build Grenades are worth a sack of salt then perhaps you'll post their names.. Even then unless they have experienced a failure first hand, they have no opinion of my engine. I have not had any engines fail, to my knowledge that were not brought to my attention. Of course we have things break, everyone does that is pushing the limits, but it does not happen often at all.

As far as pissed off customers, well they don't complain to me! It seems that things are not important enough to be brought up to me, but people run their mouths behind my back. The fact is that many of them are liars and have never bought anything from me.

I will use this opportunity to say that everyone in business pisses people off at some point, no one can please everyone. If anyone has a complaint please address it through the prer channels here and it will be addressed. I can't share experiences from pissed off customers if they don't choose to bring them to my attention!

I came back to this site because I got at least a dozen emails a week while I was gone from members that appreciated what I shared and what I do with the engines.

The fact is that I pissed in this guys corn flakes and now he is digging up whatever he can to use as ammunition against me. I don't build grenades at all and when something I build does break I do my best to work out the situation with the customer until they become disrecpectful or just plain mean, at which time they are on their own.

So... Since these people that were weighing in about me are so reputable I think they need to be identified along with a substantial explanation that lead them to their indirect conclusion that I build grenades...

I do ask that you let this die for just a few days till my dad gets out of the hospital- I have enough to worry about with him right now and would appreciate a break until the end of the week...

Posted by: WRX914 Sep 25 2006, 12:58 PM

All bs aside...

I sincerely hope your father is well. You and your family are in my prayers...

Let me know when you can get back in the ring.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2006, 02:04 PM

Thanks,
This has been a very hard weekend as my dad went in for normal back surgery (at least normal for those of us without two heart bypass surgeries and that don't have a dozen experiments in their chest cavity)

He lost a bit more blood than they liked (1 liter) and then had a heart attack while under anesthesia- all of this landed him in ICU...

I'm just not myself right now, I don't feel like working on engines or even being here at the shop, but i have to be today. I am geting ready to go back down and spend some time with him in a few minutes...

I am willing to give up on the watercooled bashing altogether. I'll continue to appreciate those that keep their 914 aircooled, but won't openly bash those that do not. Do what you want, its your car.

Posted by: Lou W Sep 25 2006, 02:22 PM

I too am sorry to hear about your dad, and will pray for him.


There's room here for all kinds of 914's, aircooled, watercooled and electric. That's what makes this place great.

Posted by: 914nerd Sep 25 2006, 03:13 PM

Amen

Jake, your dad is in all of our prayers
Good luck, hope he gets better soon

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 25 2006, 04:47 PM

Screw the shop Jake!

spend time with your dad and everyone who has a engine order or parts will and can wait.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 25 2006, 05:09 PM

the editor of Excellence is a member here and it's copyrighted material....it would kill you to spend $4 at your local bookstore

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2006, 05:25 PM

It don't work that way. People don't understand and don't like to hear excuses more than I like to try and make explanations.

I wish it did, but with tough time lines and a hefty backlog we have to keep trucking so we never have to rush to stay on time...

Thats why I'm making this post from room 186 while I watch TV with my dad..

Posted by: Rotary'14 Sep 25 2006, 06:49 PM

I hope your dad pulls through with his operation/recovery. Discussing our cars in an adult manner and getting heated is one thing,, Family is another thing all together! Despite our differing opinions you and your family have my best wishes.

today was a good day at work,, the equipment didn't fail on me this time.



-Rob

Posted by: anthony Sep 25 2006, 07:35 PM

Sorry to hear about your dad Jake.

Posted by: tod914 Sep 25 2006, 07:39 PM

Jake hope your father has a speedy recovery.

Posted by: George H. Sep 25 2006, 07:46 PM

Jake,

you and your father are in my prayers

you definitely did not have to return my emails today

Posted by: 914rat Sep 25 2006, 08:59 PM

Woooah,Lets see here you can build a true supercar 300hp 2300lbs for half of the price of a bastardized type4 motor from Jake.Hmmm.I remember a bastardized British 2 seat roadster that a guy named Carroll Shelby bastardized called a Cobra .I don't think the 4cyl model can come close to the price of an original bastardized one.If a type 4 could be built to be reliable and powerful{say over 160hp] for less than an obscene price maybe more owners wouldn't put radiators in them .Sorry Jake as they say in France "touche".By the way I'm not pissed off either.I spent way to much trying to get a type 4 to go fast.I wish I'd done a V8 or a Six.My 2 cents.Hindsight sucks.The other Dr. 914 reccomends leaving the 4cyl cars bone stock to hold value .Read George Husseys opinions about hotrodded 914 4 cyl. engines. In the end the best modification to improve value is a flat six.The best value for performance is a V8 hands down.

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 25 2006, 09:32 PM

try to sell a V8 car......

Flat sixes are nice if done like the factory six and you use atleast a 3.0l. Its still $10K and climbing to do.

You can install a 2270 w/ 160hp for alot less and I don't think a HiPo 4 loses value as its still a flat 4. Wild mods are what don't bring money later but if you keep your car so it CAN be made stock again is what brings money. Some like the car bone stock others don't.

Jake is breaking new ground with his type 4 engines and I think you are still stuck in the past.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2006, 09:50 PM

A modified four can be removed along with it's external ancillary components and swapped back to 100% stock in one weekend if need be. You can't do that with irreversible mods like sixes, V8s and subbies.. But at this point 914s still are not worth the money that make people think this way. My 356 customers do think this way and they keep their original engine pickled under the work bench 100% complete more times than not.

As far as what Hussey thinks:
Who cares? To my knowledge he never attempted to understand the 4 cylinder engine the way that one should before making such certain opinions. The engine that I create is nothing like most people have created over the years, especially today's versions. In the early days the way the engines were built, with stock rods, crappy bearings, unreliable valvetrain parts and the like I can see where he would have gotten his opinions.

The fact is what was done 30 years ago and what I have done in just the past 30 days is not even on the same planet. Today we have more experience, better parts and better manufacturing capabilities that open up doors for extreme component development.

The Dr. can think as he wishes, but I'll continue writing my own prescriptions.

Posted by: thomasotten Sep 25 2006, 09:58 PM

You don't see a lot of people buying engines from him do you? Putting a V8 in an air cooled Porsche is just wrong.

Posted by: 914rat Sep 26 2006, 04:56 PM

Ok I missed something $10k gets you a six how much is a 2270 from Jake?I keep hearing $10k.Why would I want a 2270?

Posted by: 914rat Sep 26 2006, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the R&D you do on the type 4 maybe if a 2270 turn key motor was possible for say $5k for 165hp I'd consider it, the numbers just don't exite me.To spend $10k for a type 4 and another $1k for tangerine headers and still be behind a 3.0 six on the interstate would piss me off.Keep doing what you do maybe someday all of your R&D will pay off and the price will come down.I'm a retailer and in a service business, when selling 1or 2 here and there becomes selling 2 a day and the R&D is long since paid for maybe we will all have motors by Jake.I hope your dad is doing well keep the faith. LaDon.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2006, 05:44 PM

The R&D keeps giving more benefit for the same cost. I have no intention of dropping the price of my complete engines, they have too much time in them.

A good example is the fact that this time last year my strongest 2270 is now weaker than my least powerful 2270 combo- we gained 30HP in one year from the same sized engine with the same CR and did it through development! That same engine now is the exact same base price as it was a year ago.

What people don't look at is the cost after the install. My engine is initially expensive, but parts at rebuild time or when/if something does fail are drastically reduced from a six. Most six conversions are done with used engines, while the six lasts a long time the engine is still used and that can be a basket case from the beginning. That basket case can cost 10K to rebuild stock... The TIV parts at that point are much cheaper and since the engine is much simpler the repair may cost 25% of that of the six.. The added benefit is you don't have to spend thousands of dollars in tools to repair the TIV yourself and you are not dependant upon a Porsche mech to work ont he engine- a VW person is the best man for the job...

Yes, my complete engine is expensive- each one gets at least 80 hours + of effort into it, do the math that most Porsche shops charge 65.00 per hur just for tune up work and you'll see that my labor, especially at the level it is at is very cheap and I'm doing one hell of a lot more than a tune up.

If I was in this for huge masses of engines that were less developed then m prices would be less per engine. I would most certainly rather build less engines with better results for those that appreciate my work more. This year we won't even build 18 engines if we stay on the current course- most mass producers build that many per week and they don't do a damn bit of development.. I quit trying to justify prices long ago-

I have contemplated opening another division of my shop specializing in lesser developed engines for cheaper prices, (while still keeping the custom shop open as well for those who expect more and are willing to pay for it) but don't want the headaches associated with people cutting corners during install and the isues with having customers that are numbers in a book, not a name in my head and a voice that I recognize. With volume comes cheaper prices, but less quality and more bullshit.

If these engines were more forgiving I would consider volume more, but its easy to lose a reputation when volume goes up. I have learnbed that people on a budget seem to spend the money in the wrong place and they do incomplete hasty installs that can kill the best engine fast. Those guys are the ones that cause the issues that I hate to deal with. The way my current engine program works those guys deal with others and the residual are the guys that will wait 10 months for a developed engine, not cut corners during the install and respect what they paid good money for me to create.

FYI- My engine kits have dropped in price with volume increases. Engine kits are now cheaper than I sold them in 1999 and make as much as 40HP more than they did then for 500-1500 bucks more!

I'd be perfectly happy if we built as little as 10 engines per year and with some of the crazy projects I have for 2007 and also 2008 engines already scheduled I can see this becoming the way of the future. We'll keep building kits and supporting the kits so the customer can build them at home even better. My new video series will aid in this extremely..

Oh well, it was a good day at the hospital today so I wandered off typing, overlook me as always :-) My dad **might** be home tomorrow!

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 26 2006, 06:23 PM

Yep the $10k six includes a 3.0L IF YOU CAN luck out and find one for $4500 that doesn't need work.

Add $3000 for a top end refresh


A Raby kit 2270 runs about $5.5+with now 170hp and is a kit that you do to rebuild your engine with mostly new parts.
and it weighs 100lbs less

2200lbs/170hp=12.95hp per lb
2350lbs/180hp=13.05hp per lb (3.0)

thats why guys are using 100k 3.2's or 3.6's now running $5k to $10k to save on topend costs but it costs a bit more to install so more than $10k.

just so many varibles but the news is NOW it is possible to get high hp fours that install cheaper and last more than six months.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Sep 26 2006, 06:26 PM

I think Jake is winning! I think his point about most 6 conversions are old engines is really something to think about. Rebuilding a 6 is so expensive, some people just swap in another used SC motor and hope for another 50k miles. The motor Jake delivers IS rebuilt and if not flogged on irresponsibly could go 100-200K. I like the idea of saving my OG 914 parts so I could swap them back to have the car very original (i.e. wheels, door panels, fog lights). Unless I have to move and loose my garage then it's all going to the classifieds!!
My 0.02 = a car is only worth what someone will pay....

p.s. Jake, great news about your Dad getting out of the hospital soon...make each day count cause the wind can switch directions at any moment.

Posted by: anthony Sep 26 2006, 06:29 PM

I don't know who 914rat is or what axe he has to grind with Jake but I fail to understand why the 4 versus 6 bench racing discussion can't be done without personal put downs. After all we are only talking about engines here.

To each his own, pay your money and buy what you want. Feel free to intelligently debate the merits of each motor.

To put some stuff in perspective, call up your mechanic and get a quote for a full rebuild on a stock 90hp type IV. Also get a quote on rebuilding your 3L six at the same time.

Jake's business caters to the high end. It's a unique product and most of us can't afford it. If you want a price comparison, call up Jerry Woods and ask about a high performance build on a 911 engine. I bet his prices make Jake's look inexpensive.

McMark is doing turnkey 2056es with RAT parts for those that want a turn-key solution for around $5K. Jake also sells kits at various price points if you want to do it by yourself cheaper or if you want more power than a 2056.

I've wanted more power for a long time. I've done the math many times. A medium mileage 3L goes for around $4-5K and are hard to find in excellent running condition with no broken head studs. 3.2 have shot up in price. Try and find a nice one for less than $6K. On top of that add $4K for 4 to 6 conversion parts and maybe a hundred hours of conversion time for a first timer. Call a 914 guru and ask how much a turn-key big six conversion will cost. I was quoted $12K for a 3.2 conversion 2 years ago.

When I look at it, sometimes a six makes the most sense and then sometimes a hot type IV makes the most sense. It depends on your price point, how much work and fabrication you are willing to do, how much risk you are willing to take, and what your end goal is.

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 26 2006, 06:33 PM

Just wanted to present fair and balanced used six story in the wake of this calumniatory posting toward the Porsche flat six. I bought my running 2.4 six engine with weber carbs for $2000. I have driven the car for a full season and the engine is still running strong. Just listen to $2000 of vintage Porsche power pulling my car around Laguna Seca. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQIeGJDK490. ...and that unknown white car in front of me has a $1500 2.0 six with webers that seems to be doing just fine too!

I know of several other six conversions with engines that were purchased under $4000 that are still running strong years after conversion. I just dont buy the "used six motor is expensive" scare tactics of some fervent T4 builders.

T4 is a great little motor and serves its purposes for some. Small bore six conversions are a heck of a lot of fun and just suit these cars so nicely. And want to talk about resale values of a 914-6 conversion compared to a big bore T4?

Posted by: anthony Sep 26 2006, 06:46 PM

Grant, I don't see how that is "fair and balanced". Super deals like your engine don't really come along every day. 911 webers alone are worth $1200 so a whole engine for $2000 is a smoking deal that is not duplicated for than a couple times a year by the lucky few who find them.

The downside of a used engine is TurtleGirl's bad luck. People don't talk about that scenario as much when telling us about their smoking deals on a six.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=61242

Posted by: Pat Garvey Sep 26 2006, 06:48 PM

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 26 2006, 06:52 PM

Or there is Eddie914 a local guy to me, who blew up his old 2.7l then found another "good" 2.7l to install. Total POS that wasn't even worth rebuilding.

Found a 3.2 that needed work but paid the money to have it done. I haven't heard the total cost but it wasn't a cheap road to follow.....

Sixes are expensive and fixing a six is really expensive

A Raby kit is decent and you have to put it together to get big hp.

A six conversion is something most guys do themselves for the $10-12k. Parts are getting to be over $5k. Factory parts, like oil tanks etc....


The point I am making is its harder and more expensive to do a six than it was and its finally a good option to install a hipo 4.


I also see Turtlegirls six holed a piston.

Posted by: Pat Garvey Sep 26 2006, 06:58 PM

Or.....you could just leave it alone, take the top off, hit the back roads & listen to the songs of a simple 4.

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 26 2006, 07:01 PM

yeah a six makes sense to me these days....

car is worth Maybe $10k as it sits
add $12k of six parts

sell for maybe $15k

or

do a Raby kit for $6k

maybe sell for $13k

Posted by: kwales Sep 26 2006, 07:25 PM

Jake ,

I wish the best for your dad's speedy recovery. He is one tough old goat.

As for the other stuff, I really enjoy reading your posts and your opinions. I may not always agree with you, but there is never a dull moment.

In fact, I appreciate your coming over to this site and preaching the TIV religion- because that is what it is to you- a religion. Regardless of everybody's bitching about my engine choice is better, that fervor of yours has given us more reliability and more power for TIV's at a not too bad price.

A lotta guys think that 10K+ is a lota money for a built engine, and it is. But on the other hand, I'm enough of a geek engineer to know that the small runs of parts are expen$ive (low volumes), aircooled parts are getting fewer, and quality has declined over the years. So, for that built engine, Jake buys the best parts that he can find (that's $$$ for the best parts and he's tried them all to find them), has them cleaned and treated and machined up to his high standards, then he fanatically balances the parts, and goes into an engine building trance in a clean room to build the customer's beast. Once it is built he then tests the crap outta it on the dyno to break it in and find the best settings, jettings, etc. for that combo o' parts. Did I mention all the parts and combo's he built and tested on his nickle to find something he felt good enough about to sell? That style beats the crap outa almost all of the other rebuilders.

You don't just buy a Raby engine, you pay money to adopt one of his kids, and he won't let just any one adopt one. If it does fail, Jake will want to know what happened to his baby and one of two things will happen, treat him like an ass and you get nothing, treat him like a person and he will bend over backwards.

So Reverend Raby of the Church of the Aircooled, keep the faith and keep making things happen.

Sure ya don't want to bring Vanagon engines into your fold? They are flat opposed fours and have a lot of redeeming features??

Build or buy what you like, I'm glad we have Jake. Without him, TIV quality would be way down...

Ken

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2006, 08:08 PM

Kwales, Thats a most excellent post and I really appreciate it !!

Now- I just feel sorry for the guys that started this thread as we totally abused it and got it off into la la land from the beginning and for that accept my apologies..

I continue to develop, the new dyno gets here tomorrow and the construction of the test cell begins ASAP upon my dads return from the hospital.. I bought a second dyno so one of the two could constantly house a development project for long term periods and not hamper our testing of customers engines. With the CNC capabilities I'll have by Spring and more R/D gadgets the envelope will be pushed farther.

I'll do my best not to be as much of an ass either, its my nature to get so caught up in the topic not to care how its presented or what the reader feels after reading it. Too often the topic supercedes everything else and people get mad at me when all I am trying to do is make a point... Some of the intensity needs to stop and I'm working on that!

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 26 2006, 09:34 PM

And people dont talk much about common failures in big T4 motors much either. I would challenge the assumption that there arent affordable sixes out there. I passed up some very nice $3000 and $4000 motors during my search. I'm curious if Turtlegirls motor will require that $12K rebuild?

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 26 2006, 11:20 PM

We all know about the common failures of old skool t4's, they didn't have nickies or brandnew heads!

I bought a sold a decent 2.4 as I just couldn't pour all that cash into a 130hp six/

Looked at a few, tried to buy a few 3.0's and a 3.2 but shit happens.

I hope turtlegirls six is cheaply fixable. Eddie914 wasn't

Posted by: 914rat Sep 26 2006, 11:41 PM

I personally don't have an ax to grind with Jake anymore than he has an ax to grind with 6 or 8 conversions.He has done a remarkable job with his R&D on type 4 engines .I have owned air cooled cars since the early 70's and 914's since early 90's,I love these cars,I love working on them,polishing them,vacuuming them,cleaning the windows and finally them.In a world where you can buy a HiPo Chevy or Ford crate engine from a quality rebuilder for $4000 turn key with 300-400hp I just couldn't pull the trigger on a Type 4 for $10k plus.Thats not an attack on Jake just my take on why most of us choose other options.I own 6 914's ,a restored 74 2.0 (2056) Low rust Calif. car that is my driver.A 71 that has been cosmetically restored and has 911 5lug conversion waiting for a drivetrain.A running 73 2.0 rusty in need of restoration,a 74 2.0 project with steel gt fenders,a running 73 1.7 project,and a 74 parts car that is just a shell.In my humble opinion the 914 deserves more than a type 4 can give for the $ spent at this time.Nothing personal. As far as I'm concerned there are no bad options, if Jake only wants to build 10 motors a year most of us would have to stand in line to plunk down the $10 k anyway.I'm leaning towards a V8 in my 71 not necessarily because it's cheaper ,but because it's twice the power for half the money.As far as resale who cares I'm building it to .When its done I have 3 more to tinker with.As for the the put downs read Jakes first post on this thread,he asked for it and I think he revels in it,I also think he has the balls to back it up,and the shoulders to carry it.See ya in the rearview.LaDon.

Posted by: thomasotten Sep 27 2006, 08:08 AM

As far as value goes, it all depends on the quality of the final product. If you have a big four that you and a "VW guy" slapped together based on guesswork, and what "he knows" and it runs so-so, but overheats, etc., then it will show in the other areas where corners were cut with the car. One thing Jake has going for him is reputation, and that translates to value - a 914 with one of Jake's engines is automatically worth more money. I saw one for sale somoewhere here in Texas with a 2056 and I was considering buying it just for the engine. Luckily, I got in on the 20% off special on a 2056 engine kit, so I will be going that route. So, I don't think that it is fair to say that cost wise it doesn't make sense to build a big 4. It made the most sense for me. I was really considering a six, but it was just something that would delay my project several years. Find a six, hope it runs good, buy conversion parts, get it running, figure out all the plumbing, brace for a possible rebuild. It is a lot of work to go through when you could be driving.

Oh, and one last thing. Listening to Jake, and talking to him on the phone, and reading his website and posts, one thing that has made this purchase easier for me is trust. I can say with a lot of confidence that I trust I am going to get the best engine for my money, and that I am not getting crappy parts. I sent my money away and haven't worried about it at all, because I know I am not going to get screwed, and I trust that the engine kit will be quality, and has his R&D to back it up.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2006, 09:28 AM

Thats what I shoot for and all that makes me ultimately happy..

I will say that if someone doesn't trust me- i refuse to sell them a complete engine..

BTW- Two weeks ago one of my engines was on the Samba that I built in 2001. The customer was selling it because he pulled it from his VW Thing to install the original engine back into, to sell for more money. When the car sold, he then posted the engine on the samba..

He paid me about 6K for the engine in 2001, he sold it 5 years later for 5K!

Go buy a car for 6K and see if you can sell it 5 years later for 5K- that shit don't happen!

I have had customers start build projects with me, get half way through and go broke leaving an open tab with me not being too happy about it. In one of these instances the customer sold the engine as soon as I finished it for 1500 bucks MORE than he PAID ME FOR IT!

I have always serialized my engines, non consectutively due to imposters. Its a common occurence for me to get at least one email a month from someone looking at a car with "Jake's engine" and come to find out it does not have a serial number, or it has a fake one that doesn't match the parameters.... People do that to help the value of their cars and do it very dishonestly! (It is a huge compliment to me though!)

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 27 2006, 09:57 AM

My /4 will have it's numbers matching engine sitting on a shelf. I will cut no holes in the car anywhere.

In Canada there is no way in hell you can buy a "good" /6 engine for under 6k...unless it's hot, worn out or a wimpy small /6.

I just built a 2.6 /4 for a 356, first dyno runs we got 150rwhp.

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 27 2006, 11:12 AM

One thing I've always wondered on a CSOB /6 convertion...doesn't the engine balance go out the window? Or does engine balance mean squat on a /6?

How many of you have had an engine balance whan installing the new fly and PP?
Or do you just shrug and cross every finger and toe you can?

Posted by: Steve Thacker Sep 27 2006, 11:19 AM

Damn this is a touchy subject for some people. I sit here and think who the hell just pissed on the electric fence? Or has their tampon in crooked? gezzz

Look....old car and a bunch of us dumbasses who throw our money into something that doesn't pay a tinkers damn in resale. Whoopie shit! Welcome to the ownership of classic cars, don't matter which one, just pick something. Throw what you wish in the sucker and get it down the road. When something breaks "and it will" its back up on those purdy jackstands. Oh well such is life.

I really appreciate the hard work anyone throws into something. Jake and others like him here on the site are the ones who reach for the stars. I think it is shameful to put these people down...period. Cheap ass sumbitches like me appreciate the hell out of these stars, but I do admit trying to get a dime out of us is like trying to get blood from a turnip. I kind of think of us as the Rambler owners of classic Porsche cars, OK so we aren't that cheap but damn near.

God knows I already spent too much bastardizing my car already and when the motor goes, then I'll be looking for anything I can shoehorn in, just so I can drive it. And yes the John Deere tractor out in the backyard is fair game! Why?! Because my ole lady is not about to let another silver dime slip out between her fingers for this old car.

And I quote the ole lady and gump who said..."and thats all I got to say about that".....

Posted by: anthony Sep 27 2006, 01:20 PM

Well said Steve!

I find it interesting that people get so tweeked by the thought of spending $5 or $10K on an engine. Maybe it's because of the entry level price of the 914 chassis?

Most people go and buy a new car every 4 or 5 years and lose more than that in depreciation. I've met tons of guys with six conversions that have $25-35K into their car. Why are they any more correct that the guy that buys a custom engine from Jake for $15K? I know guys that have $$$$ into a track car and spend $1K for a weekend of racing several times a year. Nobody tells them they are fools for pissing their money away. In the end it's just money and you can't take it with you. Spend it how you like.

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 27 2006, 01:34 PM

Well said guys.

Reminds me of how I got my teen in the first place. I was going to put $5k into a Gene Berg 5-speed tranny for my bug and along came my teen. Needless to say I don't have a 5-speed in the bug, but I got a whole car and guess what...it has a 5-speed.

Anything that approaches $10-20K I better get a whole car or the wife would shoot me.

Posted by: drewvw Sep 27 2006, 01:38 PM

well said.....now you have me thinking about a 914 /John Deere in all green and yellow. lol

Deersche

Posted by: WRX914 Sep 27 2006, 02:18 PM

I think the "Peel" sold for around $20k and it is a V8...

Blow up a Subie and spend $1500.00 and swap the entire engine. Not just the short-block, but the whole damn thing! That is the best part of the Subies... The engines if harmed are virtually disposable. I don't know about the rest of you, but there is something nice about being able to flog the shit out of your engine without the worries of costly repair bills.

Subies rule!



btw: Good to hear your dad is getting better...

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2006, 03:29 PM

I did a Suby swap into a VW Bug in 1994...

I have contemplated several different ways to expand business, more six work, more 356 work, higher volume TIV work and even Suby work.... I just can't do the suby thing, if I did the entire world would probably come to an end.. :-)

I have built the engines and know I could make them do insane things. They just don't have the aircooled character, though..

Posted by: WRX914 Sep 27 2006, 03:40 PM

Right on Jake!

perfect candor... much respect...

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 27 2006, 04:54 PM

But how about us guys who have those under $6,000 six conversions? There are more than just a few of us who have gone this route successfully and I did mine paying a mechanic to do the conversion.

I dont think people are fools for doing a T4. I'm likely to do a T4 car in the future! My biggest gripe is with this Raby guy and his quasi religious herd of sheep putting out disparging and untruthful information related to six conversions. I dont go around saying a Raby T4 will ruin your car. This Raby character has no problem going on his radio show and public forums telling people in the market for 914's that conversions ruin the car. Maybe if he spent more time just focusing on making his products better and less focused on bashing his competition there would be less emotion around this subject. But I dont think that fits Jakes business model.

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 27 2006, 05:16 PM

Grant, who the hell kicked your cat. I really resent your statement about "a quasi religious heard of sheep" In fact, I'm glad we're 1200 miles apart. Sheep I'm not. I spent a lot of time deciding what to do with my car and I didn't blindly follow Jake like he's the Pied Piper. You have a beef with Jake fine, deal with him about it but, don't start insulting the rest of us cause you can't accept there's more than one way to enjoy these little cars.

Dave

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2006, 05:21 PM

Oh man, what fun would that be??


Hell, I don't even have a business model. I dream up shit, make it work and sell it... I don't put much time at all into business planning and haven't had to and hope I never do...

As long as the bottom line puts food on the table and allows me to play with toys all day long I could care less! The "red Line" concerns me much more than the bottom line!

Posted by: George H. Sep 27 2006, 05:21 PM

Grant,

i'm glad you were able to get your six conversion for under 6000k,

and i'm sure it is possible to do, but if your 1.8 would have grenaded on you 2 years ago you would have paid alot more than 6 k to put a six in it and get it back on the road quickly.

you had the luxury of time to find the parts need at your leisure.



but what's with the never ending hostility towards jake,

if he post some where you are sure to follow, let it go

Posted by: anthony Sep 27 2006, 05:57 PM

Grant, how much shop time on top of that $6000 to finish your conversion? We know you got a screaming deal of an engine for $2K and then you needed $4K in conversion parts. How much was the total bill with installation?

I honestly haven't seen that. There aren't even that many guys in the Raby herd around here.

To me, the sad thing is that there isn't any other engine builder out there advancing the type IV cause like Jake is. If they are, they must be keeping it a secret because they don't post here, they don't share information, and they don't market to 914 owners.

If I wanted to buy a 2270 kit, where else could I comparison shop for one? Where could I even buy the parts and know they would fit together?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2006, 06:32 PM

There are two other builders that work with these engines quite a bit, one of them is stuck in the 70s and won't change a damn thing about the offerings, the other is more into watercooled cars these days.

The Type 4 was/is uncharted ground and thats the main reason why i started working with them. I find it absolutely no fun at all to have the same products/engines as everyone else.

What a lot of people don't realize is the fact that we are not just making big developments in the TIV world, but developing an engine that used to be thrown away into something thats getting nabbed up by people all over the world. If you compare other more exotic engines to what we are doing you'll see that this kind of development is not going on that much even in other types of engines- at least not at the rate of progression we have.

I'm not slowing down at all... This Bus doesn't wait on the slow kid to make it to the bus stop, we leave his ass!

Posted by: anthony Sep 27 2006, 06:43 PM

Ooops, in my last post I meant to write:

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 27 2006, 07:49 PM

Yeh...I was wondering that as well, sounds like an illegal or backyard bubba for beer or crack.
Doesn't sound like a licensed shop putting food on the table for their families.

Posted by: Midtowner Sep 27 2006, 07:51 PM

Is anyone else still waiting for their copy of Excellence to arrive in the mail other than me? I must be last on the list.

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 27 2006, 08:00 PM

I quote my prices based on what Brad Roberts quote me and on this site in the beginning. You remember who Brad is?? I "think" he knows his shit and what it costs to do this conversion yourself doing the work.

Now, if you scored a "once in a lifetime" deal on a six engine,, great more power to you.
I tried for 3 years to find a decent six engine in the NW (3.0l or 3.2) so don't tell me how easy it effin is to do.


I am only one of the guys who respects Jake cuz he actually does R&D and makes or has made quality 4 parts.

Posted by: Lou W Sep 27 2006, 08:07 PM

I finally got mine yesterday

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 27 2006, 08:23 PM

$4000 in conversion parts? ....the $6000 included engine, parts and labor to install the engine. It only took me 2 weeks to find 4 engines that would have worked for under $4000. I spent every hour looking at used engine sites, craigslist, ebay, etc. People would be suprized to learn how many cheap engines are out there that are in good shape. In two more weeks my car was running and on the road.

And I agree Mr. Raby does a great job with T4 development. I just dont appreciate his constant put downs of six conversions. I understand that for every conversion he loses potential market, but I have never understood why an industry figure such as Mr Raby feels he has to attack alterntives to his $T4 wizardy. His work should stand on its own merit. I think it does, but he seems to have doubts.

..and Mark H, that back yard bubba that did my conversion has done over 25 conversions including those of other non-club members. Geez who poked you with the sheering scissors? ...and there is a world out there beyond this board that knows a thing or two about 914's. I never bought the hype on this board about six conversions being tremendously expensive and pretty much proved it in short order.

Posted by: 914Sixer Sep 27 2006, 08:59 PM

I recieved my Excellence today and was astounded by the prices. If the word gets out to the public, every POS parts car will be starting at $1000. If the cars are going up that much in value, why aren't the parts worth more!!!

As for 6 conversions, I picked up a running 2.4 MFI delivered to my door for $750. Yes, I paid a premium for the the orignal parts for the conversion but the tab came to $3k total.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 27 2006, 11:30 PM

as long as one can find "disposable, hand me down /6's that might or might not blow up in the near future", people will always bitch about expensive near-new-0-miles big /4 motors....I don't get the comparisons....same goes with the Subaru conversions...as long as one can get cheap JDM or autowrecker motors, these people will knock a newly rebuilt performance /4....try pricing brand new aftermarket Subaru parts....$2K for pistons, $1.5K+ for cams....complete turnkey motors go for $12K+

I like 'em all, I just don't have to try and draw totally unfair comparisons...you cannot compare a used /6 engine with a near brand new /4 based purely on cost...

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 28 2006, 12:19 AM

I did. I looked into cost of a Raby built T4 (spent the time talking to Jake and had verbal quotes), I investigated the investment of a T4 kit and having somone build it for me and I thoroughly assessed what was involved in a conversion with a used six. The used six conversion made the most sense to me after interviewing several well respected 914 enthusiasts and mechanics. It was the easiest turn key solution for my circumstance. But again similar to you I like most 914 engine options. I just dont have a T4 agenda with profit motives that skew my opinions as some six bashers do. I'm really just an objective minded 914 hobbiest with no financial ties to one engine platform or another.

Now the real sickness happens after the six engine conversion. I have spent far more on wide body conversion, 5 lug conversion, suspension mods, roll cage, assorted body parts, oil cooler, short ratio transmission, track oriented upgrades, wheels and tires. The engine was really the cheap part of the game for me.

So back to topic where do small displacement conversion sixes fall in the valuation mix?

Posted by: anthony Sep 28 2006, 08:50 AM

Grant, we'll have to call your car the Immaculate Conception. I mean you got the killer deal on the engine, the conversion parts and on the shop labor to put it together.

My 2270 with 160 foot pounds of torque will still come in cheaper.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2006, 09:28 AM

But the question is:

When it breaks, will he tell us??

I couldn't resist!!

Posted by: rdauenhauer Sep 28 2006, 09:46 AM

That wasnt the topic
The topic was 914 valuations related to the recent artical in Excellence.
So BOT why arent the LE's listed in his artical(s)?

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 28 2006, 10:02 AM

OK you know me so I'm saying this in spirit of fun. Really? If you count your hours assembling the engine, all the parts nessary for rebuild, machining cost, fuel delivery (are you going with $$$$carbs or $$$$$$$$$aftermarket FI?). Are you installing a new clutch to handle all that new found power? Also the clock is ticking. Will you have your engine assembled and running in the car in two weeks? Didnt you indicate you ordered the 2270 kit recently?

All kidding aside this is going to be great! I have been looking forward to seeing one of Jakes engine kits in the Bay Area. If you get it assemebled and running I think you will be one of the few here with that have a running Raby inspired engine.

Hey once your finished we should have a drag race. My 2.4 is a torquey little engine too

Posted by: anthony Sep 28 2006, 10:20 AM

I know you're just joking around. I don't think even Jake takes your pokes seriously anymore. :-)

Yes, I just ordered the kit so it's obviously not going to be done in two weeks. That's fine because I wouldn't have time to work on it in the next month or two anyway. The kit includes a new clutch and pressure plate balanced from fan to pressure plate.

It doesn't even look like putting all together is really going to take that much time. The tear down to pull the core crank only took me 2 hours. But really I'm looking forward to the build up.

I haven't decided yet what to do with fueling but I'm leaning towards SDS EFI or Megasquirt. Even purchasing SDS outright for fuel only is around $1200 with the o2 sensor kit. Megasquirt can be done for $500 or less. New Webers can be done for $1100 - used $500. Even with the most expensive fueling option I'll be under your $6000 (though very close).

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 28 2006, 10:35 AM

resell-value is for weenies ...

i'm just about done dropping another $15k into my car, that'll bring the total well over $30k ...

and i'm already thinking about taking it all apart (again) and acid-dip it and redo it from scratch ...

resell-value can

Andy

Posted by: anthony Sep 28 2006, 10:37 AM

Oh yeah, drag race - you're on!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2006, 10:43 AM

Thats part of all my kits.. It has to be to offer a fully balanced rotating mass.

A customer that had never assembled an engine before put his kit together in two weekends from start to finish. With the prep work and configuration of the kit all of the hard/guess work is complete out of the box.

When I finish the 2270 video over the winter the ease of assembly can't get any easier..

Posted by: Mueller Sep 28 2006, 11:36 AM

slight hi-jack....Anthony, the guys that started Megasquirt is coming out with a new ECU, factory installed surface mounted components with a proper connector and case (similar to a MoTec)...no screwing around with soldering and such....target price is $350...still no "factory" support, but there is enough help to figure out the setup and tuning....1st 50 prototypes are fuel only and are being tested as we speak....once proven, then they'll ad spark control and who knows what else.....

Posted by: thomasotten Sep 28 2006, 11:57 AM

I think, that being it is an entire "kit", it isn't proper to say "Raby inspired". I think the term "raby inspired" is used to refer to engines that are built using some of Mr. Raby's ideas, but not as one of his complete kits. I could be wrong, though....

Posted by: anthony Sep 28 2006, 12:36 PM

Wow, that sounds pretty good. Fiid and Jeff were very encouraging on Megasquirt. I've been thinking that I might do like Jeff and get MS all working on my current engine so that by the time I build my 2270 I'll have the experience and a working system and won't be experimenting on a new engine.

Is there a link where I can read about this? I don't see it mentioned on megasquirt.info.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 28 2006, 01:01 PM

http://www.microsquirt.info/

I plan on getting one for my Volvo 240 Turbo motor that I am building

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2006, 01:45 PM

Actually I refer to my engine kits as "Raby Inspired"....
The only way to get a full Raby seal of approval is the complete engine that has made it through 10 hours of dyno work and has the pedigree worthy of the title..

Posted by: dmenche914 Oct 13 2006, 03:18 AM

i would thinnk a radiator car could be done right enough that if one wanted to, the removed front metal can be replaced. In many cases a collision or rust damaged car could be used, hence a bit of missing metal (as long as you save the pieces0 can be welded back in if one wiched to de-convert back to a stock motor. Look at all the cars with the AC hole cut in them, yet teh AC was removed years ago! Run the pipes carefully under teh car, and cut ans save the intake and outlet hole pieces, and you should in the future be able to "restore the car" many expensive 356's have had floors, fenders, doors, battery boxes replaced becuase of rust, and many of those panels are exterior cosmetic panels that are hard to get right looking, yet teh cars still sell for a lot.

With collisons, rust and such on most 914's 9and it will only get worse in coming years0 a good radiator install, with all the saved metal, would be a snap to return to stock look. if your trunk is already rusting, and the front already dented, the loss in value by adding a radiator would be minimal. The cost savings in buying ahigh HP V8 verses a simular HP flat four is substantial, maybe making up for any future loss in value, Sure there are higher center of gravity issues, but a V8 914 handles better than most V8 equiped cars. Motor to your passion I say, witht eh number of 914's produced far exceeding that of the 356's the values may take a bit longer to reach 356 levels. The only real big loss in value is a radiator conversion on a prestine original car.

Posted by: thomasotten Oct 13 2006, 09:20 AM

I don't know, if I was looking at a car that had a radiator, and it shouldn't, it would tell me a lot about the car, and the previous owner. Particularly, that the owner simply gave up and joined the masses and went water cooled because it was the easiest way for him to solve the problem at hand (power, overheating, whatever). Then I would wonder what else he took "alternate routes" for. That is not to say that any modification can't be done right, and many water conversions on the club here have, it seems. But I would keep looking for "the right car".

Posted by: dmenche914 Oct 13 2006, 09:42 AM

maybe the 914 should have had a radiator in the first place??? Seems if Porsche had kept making them, they would have a radiator by now. The aircooled was a fine motor, I love them, but they do have limitations, the cooling can be an issue, they make more noise, and the design precludes the more modern multivalve design, that and other things forced Posche to add the missing radiator to the 911 series.
if anyone is looking for a radiator equiped 914 i have one for sale (don't need two) or if you want, buy it and weld up the holes in the front and go back to air cooled. If you want a modern high power in-expensive motor in the 914, adding a radiator is one way to go, maybe not the only way, but certainly viable. It like pick you own style. but the advice on keeping the parts you remove for radiator install will assure that if the 914 becomes worth its weight in gold in original configuration, you can put it back, and recover the value.

Posted by: Greg808 Oct 15 2006, 05:25 PM

Hey could someone just scan and post the valuation info from excellance
for those that don't receive it?

Posted by: anthony Oct 15 2006, 05:49 PM

Isn't that called a Boxster? Of course Porsche would have put a radiator in the 914 by now.

I think the ultimate decision is whether you want a vintage aircooled 914 or some type of hybrid. Personally, I want the vintage car. A hybrid doesn't interest me but I certainly understand why for others the 914 is just a great chassis for the conversion of their choice.

Posted by: dmenche914 Oct 15 2006, 06:54 PM

Me, i am thinking of a way to get the radiator working in the engine bay. May not work too well with a tall Vee engine, not much room above,a nd the headers are close tot eh lid. A Subaru powered car should have more space above the engine, and allow this (maybe) . That would be nice, a conversion water cooled engine, with no front trunk modifications.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Oct 15 2006, 07:01 PM

Its been done...and successfully. Search for Scott Thachers car or contact him directly. His screen name is his real name.

Posted by: aircooledboy Oct 16 2006, 10:17 AM

For what it's worth, here's what I know.
I thought the "vintage feel" was important too. That's why I have a completely stock, pretty damn nice 1.7 as well as a very well done and sorted V8. I figured I would drive the V8 on colder days (with it's real actual hot heat), and on hotter humid days (with it's modern AC system), and drive the 1.7 on the better convertible sort of days. Reality: The 1.7 has been driven 3 times in 2 1/2 years. The V8 is a DD from April thru the 1st salt of November or December, and I get genuinely sad when I have to park it for the winter.

My observation has been that the overwhelming majority of those who say they don't care for the V8's for whatever reason, have never even ridden in one, let alone driven a well done example. I have been lucky enough to have had the chance to drive everything from a super nice old 240Z to a supercharged Mini to a 180k Bentley GT, with dozens of others in between. Without question in my book, none of them can come close to the fun of driving that V8. All the old crap about "too heavy", "higher center of gravity" and "screwed up front to back weight distribution" is all just that, crap. The real difference in "feel" between my 1.7 and V8: when I put my foot in the throttle on the 1.7, I can sense some aceleration coming on; In the V8, I'm pushed back into the seat HARD, and I have the distinct "feel" that if I let go of the steering wheel even a little, the car will shoot out from under me like a rocket, and leave me sitting in the middle of the road.

I will have the V8 until I'm too old to drive it anymore. I'm not so sure about the 1.7.

Posted by: Brando Oct 16 2006, 11:02 AM

And you will feel horrible when the car is sold to someone in Arizona, and they backdate the exhaust, install carbs, and trash the emissions equipment