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Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 07:03 PM

Here they are....

8620 Tool Steel cam blank, copper plated and ready for rough and finish grinding then heat treat and Ion Nitride

The lifters weigh in at 53 Gr, thats 30 grams less than our ceramics, 55 Grams less than our conventional performance lifters and damn near 100 grams lighter than a stock TIV lifter!!!



Here is the bushing system that drops right into the case and makes it all happen..


Close up of the CNC bushing


The cam is being ground to a radical profile I designed tomorrow, the first test engine will be on the dyno in two weeks or less. Its a 200+HP, 14.5:1CR 2270 beast with 52mm IDA carbs and plenty of head development!

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 21 2006, 07:08 PM

hydro?

how do ya get the bushing to stay pumped up?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 07:10 PM

Nope, nothing is hydro at all...

The bushing fits into the case and allows a specially modified Big Block Chevy lifter to be ran in the non modified Type 4 case.

The bushing incorporates a slot that the dowl in the lifter slips into, keeping the lifter from rotating in the bore...

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 21 2006, 07:16 PM

cool

Posted by: Moneypit Sep 21 2006, 07:17 PM

I need to change underwear.....


How many of these nifty upgrades are compatible with a stock type IV? are these the kinds of things that sorta require other modifications to see benefits?

Posted by: URY914 Sep 21 2006, 07:18 PM

So that is a roller lifter?

Posted by: Lou W Sep 21 2006, 07:25 PM

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 07:25 PM

Yep..
What you can't see is the other two rollers inside the lifter that the contact roller rides against... Its a hydrostatic floating roller, the oil between the two smaller internal rollers is what it rides on...

as far as being compatible with stock components- Sure you could do this to a 100% otherwise stock engine, just don't plan on running stock FI!

I plan to build a 100% stock test engine and slap these rollers in, I have plotted 30% power gains, but won't know how accurate it is till I try it...

Posted by: URY914 Sep 21 2006, 07:38 PM

That boy is ALWAYS thinkin'.

Very cool, again.

Posted by: Moneypit Sep 21 2006, 07:40 PM

Coolness. Once I get time someday, I'd love to build an engine kit, haven't decided what i'd want in terms of size, but definately with nickies... i've had my eye on some of those for a long while.

too bad i just put my motor back together. otherwise, i'd have listened to the show and gotten a deal on a kit. are there any decent upgrades that can be done without dropping the motor, aside from a Mallory/Hyfire(in my near future)?

Also, any more information i could find on the DTM for 914? haven't seen any specific stuff on the 914 version... i might be interested in one

Posted by: craig downs Sep 21 2006, 07:42 PM

Wow Jake thanks for sharing. That just looks awesome.
I hope it works as good as it looks

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 07:54 PM

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/r_d_914_dtm.htm

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/Porsche%20914%20DTM/index.html


I am quite confident these rollers will work well, the concept has worked well for the Chevy boys...

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 21 2006, 07:55 PM

30% on a stock engine?????

Hmmm I got me an idea. I off to go read the rule book a gain. D street Prepared HHMMMMMMM...

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 08:11 PM

Absolutely!

With this arrangement I can open valves at a blistering rate compared to a flat tappet, literally twice as fast as with a stock arrangement! that means huge chamber filling at lower lift values... An autocrossers dream come true!

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Sep 21 2006, 09:07 PM

SO when are you sending a dozen of these to McMark in Napa? He might have another case splitting BBQ to celebrate. He told me about these last month, and the new tricks they can do with the valve movement. I assume you will develop these for the 2270 for now. Awesome. This, and the new cnc heads, have got to be the biggest TIV break-throughs in the enitre 21st century! Jake, you said on the radio show these would be revealed, and here they are. A honest man of his word....pretty rare in a jungle of grease monkeys!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 09:12 PM

Thanks!

There is much more on the horizon!

I don't plan on letting these babies out of my sight for 2 years or so-

have to give my complete engine customers the edge over everyone else for a while and also i have to really learn these babies before any customer gets them. I have 10 cam blanks made up and 14 sets of lifters, all different composition being made. I'll be wearing out dyno #2 as soon as it gets here and gets installed!

Posted by: turboman808 Sep 21 2006, 09:13 PM

Doesn't look like it goes in a 6

Wonder what that would do in the 2.7? Could it hit 300hp?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 09:20 PM

You already have OHC, no need for a roller, unless you want to go back toa 4 cylinder and take a 150 pound diet pill real quick..

Posted by: Brett W Sep 21 2006, 09:24 PM

Looks like the Jesel Keyed lifters. Cool. Yeah Rollers are where its at. no more flat cams or lifters and you can really get radical with the ramp rates.

Posted by: turboman808 Sep 21 2006, 09:27 PM

Shows you how much I know about these cars

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 09:27 PM

Yep- The ramps are sick!!!

These rollers use a silicon nitride wheel, literally zero friction on any of the components...

Its going to be an adventure the first day the test engine fires up!...
designing regular flat tappet cams is absolutely no fun after this!! Whole new world!

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 21 2006, 09:35 PM

Pardon my dumb question, but what is the difference in design between a flat tappet cam and a roller cam?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 10:03 PM

Same difference in daylight and dark- nothing is the same..

Here is a good comparison with Big Block Chevy cams.. The lobes are very similar for my arrangement.. Once we get the blanks finish ground.

Flat tappet on left, roller on the right..
These are very mild cams! They get WAY more aggressive!

Posted by: Mueller Sep 21 2006, 10:12 PM

Less friction as well...almost all the OEM (Ford, Chevy) pushrod motors have roller lifters for better gas mileage.........


those are bada$$ Jake...now to win the lotto in the next 2 years

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Sep 21 2006, 10:13 PM

Hey Jake,

What's with the diameter changed on the bushing? Are you milling out the case releifs and allowing some of the bushing to protrude?

Looks cool. Can't wait to see the results.

Matt

Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 21 2006, 10:23 PM

I have been dreaming of this for 10 years.......never had enough time or money to modify shit to do it. Way cool!

Next best thing to OHV and on a type 4, woohoo!!! type 1's look out.


shoot even my big o'crap V6 Ford Ranger has roller lifters.....

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 10:27 PM

The case is only bored .004 max and thats just so the tooling ca ensure the bores are 100% true. They can drop right in to place with no machine work, BUt you are trusting the factory to be perfect and thats not cool. These lifters are critical to install, no mistake more than a ten thousandth is tolerated!

The bushings take the lifter bore from .943 to .842 so we can use a modified Chevy lifter thats cheaper, stronger, lighter and easier to get in Silicon Nitride..

Preparing to make a 100% swap to this technology for all my engines requires serious thought and planning- every aspect must be considered from cost to availability....

The best thing is this arrangement would only cost 300 bucks more than a set of ceramic flat tappets and a Web cam! More than likely I'll absorb the costs of the inclusions in my engines and just pass the power onto the customers.. Some people paid me for 155HP engines and have gotten 185HP for the same cost with the CNC heads, same goes for these rollers... It sometimes pays to be in line!

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 21 2006, 10:30 PM

So the only way we get the roller lifters is to find em ourselves?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 21 2006, 10:40 PM

Or save some money and buy the whole engine..
Seriously, this is not do it yourselfer type work..

You have to basically re-engineer the entire valve train, have a cam blank made from scratch...

The tooling needed to ensure the bushings are inserted true and correctly has cost me over TEN THOUSAND bucks! If you do not install these correctly the cam will walk in the case and will eat thrust bearings like butter...

This is the kind of component that could destroy an entire engine in an heartbeat if not machined correctly, the same goes with the cam grind, we have had to have new master blanks made from scratch.

I plan on breaking a significant amount of parts creating the rules to make this effective. Thank me for not polluting the market with components that will break peoples engines!

Until I have an engine successfully runing these for 40K miles+ I won't think of using them in a customers engine.

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 21 2006, 10:54 PM

Too bad you dont do 914 engines anymore...

Speaking of shoddy parts, where has Steve gone to?

At least you test things, some people let customers do the testing...


I dont buy crap for computers, I use what works--even if it costs 2x as much.

Seems like you do the same thing for these cars, and I tell each and every person 'you'll WISH your computer would die in order to get a new one before it actually keels over'

I redo EVERYTHING that comes through my door, including dumping all of the cheap chinese capacitors, kinda like valve seats on a t4.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 21 2006, 11:20 PM

What a great idea, that should help with reliablity. In the days that was the biggest

problem with running a roller cam, we did it but paid for it. The bushing was a

stroke of genius the cam is rarely the problem and being able to change the lifter

and bushing with no damage to the case is really cool. Nice job.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 21 2006, 11:29 PM

Posted by: messix Sep 21 2006, 11:36 PM

jake are you doing any thing with the "bee hive" valve springs?
i read about a year ago how you could let the valve "bounce" off the cam at high revs for a little more lift at higher rpm to extend the power curve with out any bad things happening. this is due to the controlled harmonic range of the spring.

i need to look this up again. i'm sure i didn't get it all out right.

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 21 2006, 11:53 PM

Oh Mike, you havent either

I'll take the spring off of the AFM

Posted by: jhadler Sep 21 2006, 11:57 PM

Too bad that after Jake's magic, it's no longer a "stock" engine. Not legal for SP. Pretty much anything inside the engine besides balancing is verboten. But an XP motor??? Sky's the limit my friend. As the old saying goes... "Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go? "

-Josh2

Posted by: Mueller Sep 21 2006, 11:58 PM

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 22 2006, 12:00 AM

yeah, well I havent had a good enough break yet to listen to it.

Jake doesnt talk loud enough, The host needs to crank him up. I wanna hear jake, not some dude laughing .

Posted by: Mueller Sep 22 2006, 12:10 AM

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 22 2006, 12:19 AM

Gomer

LOL

Posted by: Rand Sep 22 2006, 12:44 AM

The host is kind of a geek. No offense intended, after all, I'm only more of a geek.

What I DON'T UNDERSTAND is why in the hell don't they have someone who understands audio production and web optimization run the audio through a decent software package before posting the MP3 to the web??? Ok, I admit, I'm on an obnoxious rant about equivalent ot Jake's rant on exhaust systems. But please. I download the show, load it into Adobe Audtion, and it a couple clicks end up with a nicely normalized listenable show that is about half as large a download. Why is the production lacking?

It wouldn't be hard for someone who really knew the technology to raise the audio quality of the show. Jakes engines are premium. The radio show content is premium. The production is lame.

Ok, rant over. Jake, THANK YOU for doing 4th dimension radio. HUGE. Just wish your production team was up to your level.

Go ahead, flame me now.

Posted by: bd1308 Sep 22 2006, 12:47 AM

with that guy.

I am going to clean my stuff up with audacity. I simply cant hear jake. I guess its me, but when I hear jake well, the announcer sounds like he's right next to me and hes screaming.

Posted by: Rand Sep 22 2006, 12:54 AM

It isn't rocket science, but id DOES REQUIRE A PROFESSIONAL. Jake's shows are worthy of professional production. Let's raise the freaking bar!

EDIT: Crap, I'm too fired up. I do this stuff for a living and I care passionately about quality. Probably shot off my mouth too much tonight. I better go have a rum and coke and mellow out.

Posted by: messix Sep 22 2006, 01:15 AM

hey rand, how you doin?

Posted by: Rand Sep 22 2006, 01:19 AM

Hey Troy. Much better now, thanks. Rum and coke almost gone. LOL

Posted by: messix Sep 22 2006, 01:28 AM

i'm outta coke but not rum

Posted by: Hydra Sep 22 2006, 02:55 AM

Jake, thyatnks for the pics and info
I was wondering about the cam grind, what is the exact process? i know that they use a master cam that is larger than the real cam, and then use pantograph to grind the lobes then they go back and smooth out the finish. is that accurate?
another idea would be compund camshafts, why not have seperate lobes that would slide onto the camshaft, the lobes would be wire EDM'ed, smoothed out, and then slided onto a splined camshaft along with the journals, and retained there by some circlip or something? would it not be much more cost efficient?

Nick

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 22 2006, 03:14 AM

Some of the radio shows have really bad audio issues. We are fighting each week with changing phone lines and the like. The host has pretty much every gadget you could imagine. The last show was certainly not as bad as a couple of the others and we continue to work on it..

I STILL BUILD 914 ENGINES!! If you would lisyten and read you'd see that I just don't do any more 914 specific RESEARCH work! That means that something like these rollers that benefit all of my engines will also be used in future engines to be fit into 914s, but things like the 914 Turbo kit have been terminated.... Its not really that big of a deal that I don't do any more 914 specific development because most everything that could be 914 specific we already created or had!

As for the way the cams are made- this started out as a 3.5" diameter chunk of solid billet steel- it has been CNC'd down to the sizes you see here, this is the strongest possible way thats cost effective to end up with a cam blank... Splining things requires a hobbing process and you should see how expensive that is!

The person that makes these cam blanks for me builds precision aerospace models and has many parts on the International Space Station and his parts helped us land on the Moon for the first time- he is about as serious as they come!

Posted by: Hydra Sep 22 2006, 03:24 AM

So the blank is CNC machined, but what about the lobe machining itself? is the process i talked about the real one or is there some other way?
Thanks
Nick

Posted by: turboman808 Sep 22 2006, 06:06 AM

I clean them up before I listen to them. I can upload the cleaned up audio if you want to hear it or just tell you what I do. It's not hard. Just a compressor at 4to1 with a -19 threshold and a 8db boost. After that I just cut everything below 300hz since the only thing there is the guys breathing and laughing into the mic.

Much more pleasant to listen to afterwards.

Posted by: Rand Sep 22 2006, 09:52 AM

Sounds to me like the host has too many gadgets and needs to learn how to process audio. Evidently his bag of tricks does not include quality compressor/limiters. Like I said, and like others say. A couple clicks in a good piece of software by someone who knows what f*** they're doing, and the audio quality is 100000% better plus the file is smaller. I'm not talking about theory here. I'm talking about what I do to the file after I download it so I can tolerate listening to it.

Sorry for ranting in public on this. That's really not like me. But this one is just ridiculous because it's so easy to fix by someone competent. It just bothers me because Jake's work quality is in a completely different league than this production quality. It's like serving a premium steak on a paper towel. I'll keep quiet now, if there's anything else to say it can be done offline. Sorry.

Back on topic: Thank you Jake for sharing. I love seeing and hearing about your innovation.

Posted by: messix Sep 22 2006, 10:02 AM

'Rand' the jake of comupter audio!

Posted by: messix Sep 22 2006, 10:06 AM

hyjacker!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Sep 22 2006, 10:17 AM

Excellant news for the T4 people!!

I never could figure out why someone didnt go down this path 20 years ago for the T4 (maybe they did and I missed it) The VW drag guy's have been using them for years and years.

Ford 5.0 iron block engines for Mustang GT's had roller lifters in 1984.

9k RPM will be easy to achieve and maintain with this setup. Combine the light lifters and the ramp design of the cams and we wont need valve stem busting 300lb seat pressures on the face of the valves!!





I have one more T4 engine for myself coming up soon


B

Posted by: davep Sep 22 2006, 10:19 AM

Why not arrange with Jake to process the audio file for him before he hosts it on his website. I'm sure a lot of us would like the benefits of listening to a more balanced version. Is there a way to trim the files to an 80 minute limit so that they can be burned to an audio CD? I like to listen to them in my car, and it does not handle MP3 files. If you can permit some of us to get these revised versions, that would be great.

Posted by: JmuRiz Sep 22 2006, 10:41 AM

Mmmmm, roller valvetrain, I've been waiting for this since you first threw some teaser picks out over a year ago. Awesome stuff, can't wait to see the test numbers.

Posted by: Lou W Sep 22 2006, 11:02 AM

Posted by: 72914S Sep 22 2006, 11:20 AM

GREAT news Jake BUT now I suppose I need to wait 2 years for the ultimate T4
'ENGINE BY JAKE".Just when I think I have the wife talked into a replacement for the 2056 I dropped a valve in. That is unless you are looking for a test mule?

Posted by: messix Sep 22 2006, 11:38 AM

heres one of the articles on this http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=612728045

Posted by: 75914-L20C Sep 22 2006, 11:39 AM

What is the purpose of the copper plating on the cam blank? Isn't it all removed when the cam profile is ground?

Thanks,
Pete Klager
'75 914 1.8L

Posted by: Brett W Sep 22 2006, 04:33 PM

Honda uses this technique on some of their production camshafts. They gut the lobes and then put them on a five spline shaft. In the case of Jake it would be cheaper to do single blanks from a solid peice.



Beehive springs have a different natural frequency than standard springs, plus the top of the spring is lighter for less valvetrain weight. The only people that are "lofting the valves/lifters are the Prostock boys and NASCAR. It is very hard on valvetrain.

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 22 2006, 04:42 PM

Where can I get one of those clean-up audio versions? I will listen to it...

-Britain

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 22 2006, 04:53 PM

is there any fix or solution for lifter bores that don't measure correctly, oversized after trueing, to accept the lifters?

k

Posted by: Rand Sep 22 2006, 07:55 PM

http://www.4nets.com/jake.mp3

I didn't spend any time cleaning it up, just pushed a couple buttons to flatten out the audio levels so I could listen to it. Could be made way better.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 23 2006, 04:06 PM

Sorry guys.. My dad is in ICU after some severe blood loss during surgery yesterday. I have limited access to the hospital network

The radio show quality is constantly being worked on- know that.. with the show gaining populairty it deserves to be the best and thats what we'll shoot for.

On the subject of the rollers:
To my knowledge and several of my european friends these have never been available for a Type 4 engine before now. The reason for this is all the work involved and the extreme cost involved, especially before CNC capabilities were readily available... for the first time in a long time I feel like a true development has been made in my shop and for the first time ever, making these part of all my engines takes things to a totally different level, a level that no one else can parallel without some very serious effort.

These are all prototype parts at this point. I have decided to invest in a CNC lathe and a cam grinder to allow us to do these processes 100% in house- I can't aqfford anyone else to work with these components- the risks of them falling into evil hands is just too much.

I'll be back with some results from a 2056 and 2270 test engine in six weeks, both engines are being ran with flat tappets, conventionally and then swapped to rollers and retested directly for comparisons...

I am taking this very, very seriously!

BTW- regarding case work:
I have invested in the necessary tooling to not only check cases for truness, but also to correct case wear and have 3 different OD bushings to retrofit cases for proper sizing. I have about 60 cases that are perfect except for worn lifter bores, this will bring them back to life with a few hours of machine work and the truing plates. These tools are very sexy and VERY expensive and have taken myself, a bitchin machinist and about 200 hours of effort so far to design..

Posted by: Brando Sep 24 2006, 11:19 AM

You got that right!!!

Why can't these roller lifters be used with FI?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 24 2006, 11:48 AM

They could be used with FI.... I have two specific FI cams being ground this week.. One is for plenum based FI, the other for individual runners..

The difference is STOCK FI!! Using these profiles with stock FI would be a total waste of time and money and more than likely with the compromises that would have to be made profile wise the engine would not make any more power than with flat tappets currently. Sticking with stock FI automatically limits what can be done.

There is a huge difference between "FI" and "Stock FI"- I gave up on stock FI damn near 8 years ago..

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 24 2006, 04:03 PM

sorry. last last minute change option. mallory, 6A, baster coil. the SDS LRS-2E? stock plenum. still time to get the cam change to match the lifters, if ness. please lmk.

k