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Posted by: jhadler Oct 15 2006, 06:26 PM

Hey all,

I need some help here.

Finally got the linkage out of the way of the header pipes (BFH to the linkage), and now that I can finally get all the pieces bolted up, there's a fitment dilemma.

The upper bank of primaries protrudes a good two inches further rearward than the lower bank of primaries. They sooo don't fit into the collector.

What's going on? Is there something that I did wrong in assembly? Or am I supposed to cut them to fit???

Help! Help!



-Josh2

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 15 2006, 06:28 PM

something is messed up....

is everything loosely assembled?? (loose bolts etc... only the stubs are tight to the heads)

and my linkage has NEVER interfered with the header...

something is wrong here.....

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 15 2006, 06:57 PM

Are you using stub pipes?

something is outa wack....

No cutting to fit that I am aware of....

Are they brand new or did you get them 2nd hand?

Posted by: jhadler Oct 15 2006, 06:59 PM

The linkage only -slightly- interefered with the header. A small dent in the side of the linkage rod and all is well.

As for the headers... Yeah, I'm starting to think that something isn't right.

The stub pipes are tight to the heads. And I've loosened and re-tightened the bolts on the headers. Even left them loose to try to get them closer, but no joy.

Could the shop that did the heads have accidentally swapped the stub pipes? Even still, could that even account for the offset?

I'm a little stimied here...

-Josh2

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 15 2006, 07:02 PM

try swapping the stubs....

i *thought* they were all the same.....

my only misalignment was at the collector to muffler...

welt solid mounts make the trans sit uphigher... thus the muffler sits too high...

elongated the holes and we are good to go

Posted by: jhadler Oct 15 2006, 07:05 PM

Got 'em brand new a couple years ago, had them ceramic coated, and then they sat on the shelf in the garage for a long time. Trying to really get the car finished now, and this is just annoynig...

The stub pipes went to the head guy when I had the ports matched. I'm starting to wonder if they somehow got mixed up...

But would that really cause the offset???

-Josh2

Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 15 2006, 07:09 PM

The stubs are cylinder specific.

Ya got to get em right.

Or it don't work....

If you look at some of the ER stubs. They are marked for cylinder location.

If all else fails. Call George tomorrow and ask him... WhaZzzz up.

Twystd1

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 15 2006, 07:09 PM

if those 2 had an offset stub pipe... the try swapping em 180 degrees.....in their respective port

BTW - this is a George Narbel "eurorace" hheader right?

never heard of a "eurosport"

Posted by: jhadler Oct 15 2006, 07:10 PM

I sooo don't want to swap the stub pipes...

The stubs were port matched to the heads, and the motor is already in the car...

But it's starting to sound like my only recourse is swapping the stubs...

I'm gonna mull this over a little longer. I won't have the time to try swapping the stubs for couple weeks...

-Josh2

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 15 2006, 07:35 PM

The stubs are not tight to the heads. There are a couple of things to check. If you have the bigger thread studs (on the head side), then the hole for the stub pipes probably has to be drilled out bitter and clearanced for where the stud changes diameters. Second, make sure the peices that the stud goes through is not bottoming out on the head. Both of these will lead you to think that everything is tight, when it's not really bottomed on the gasket.

Ask me how I know......

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 15 2006, 07:36 PM

Oh, you don't actually have to get the stubs right for it to work.

Posted by: JPB Oct 15 2006, 07:47 PM

I'm shure its just a silly overlooked detail thats all. If all else fails you can always them into submission!!

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 15 2006, 07:49 PM

QUOTE(Twystd1 @ Oct 15 2006, 06:09 PM)

Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 15 2006, 08:23 PM

Aaron,
Mine are marked..
I also have a Euro Race setup like yours. At least mine are marked.
(Just looked)

They don't fit otherwise.

AND...... Rumor has it that Euro headers are made by at least 2 manufacturers for George.... (not verified)

And the design has changed a wee bit over the years. So I dunno....

I helped Aaron with his headers. Like he said. You HAVE to have all the bolts/nots loose to get the thing together. Then tighten.
(Sans stubs to heads)

I think you have already done that... HHHmmmmmmmmm

Call George tomorrow. See what he says. And please post the results for the rest of us.

By the way... I COVER all the slipjoint tubes with "Milk Of Magnesia" before I put em together. (Shake bottle good before using)
They come apart WAY BETTER if you ever need to pull em.

REALLY...

Clayton

Posted by: jhadler Oct 15 2006, 08:58 PM

So if the stub pipes are all the same (which is what I originally thought), then what the heck is going on with this thing...

-Josh2

Posted by: gklinger Oct 15 2006, 10:52 PM

The stubs are definitely cylinder specific; mine were clearly marked and I'm not sure if they would have fit otherwise. As I remember the difference was in the way the tubes that fit over the studs were arranged around the circumference of the stub. Not sure if getting them wrong would cause the issue you have tho?

Posted by: jhadler Oct 15 2006, 11:04 PM

I know they were labeled, and I'm starting to wonder if they ceramic coater pulled and then accidentally switched the labels.

Thing is... Aftter looking at them, they didn't seem to have different lengths or angles that would account for this offset. That they all fit properly on the heads implies that the right ones are on the right cylinders.

So where does that leave me???

Hurm.....

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Oct 16 2006, 11:11 AM

Okay,

I talked with George, and he seems to think that getting all the primaries really loosened up, then fitting the collector, and then tightening it all up is the way to go.

So... I'll give it a go again tonight and see what happens.

FYI. The stubs are almost identical, the only difference is the mounting to the heads. If they fit, they're the right ones. So, I don't think that swapped stubs are the problem.

He did tell me that all the pipes should index on the smallest one (cylinder 3 I think?), and that once they are are aligned to bop the collector on with a rubber mallet.

I'll report back tonight on how it went...

-Josh2

Posted by: TGM Oct 16 2006, 02:53 PM

On mine, the ceramic coating made the fit between the pipes and collector pretty tight. I preassembled all four pipes to collector with rubber mallet then bolted the assembly to stub pipes. Some mismatch at the ends on length shouldn't matter as long as you get reasonable engagement on all pipes into the collector. My stub pipes were all marked as cylinder specific. I permanently engraved prior to ceramic coating so they wouldn't get mixed up.

On a related issue - what's the best way to shield the clutch and speedo cables from the heat since they run right over top of the header? Before ceramic coating, I insulated the pipes with header wrap but still melted the rubber cable sheathing.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 16 2006, 03:31 PM

Yeah, I had tags on the stubs, but I started to wonder if the coater had pulled the tags and replaced them wrong. After talking with George, if the stubs were missmatched, they wouldn't have been able to mount on the heads at all.

I'll be loosening all the primaries tonight, and fitting the collector first.

Yeah, I'm gonna need to sand the ends of the primaries down to get 'em to fit into the collector.

Heat shielding is a concern for me as well. I'm thinking of buying some of the fancy pyro wrap stuff and wrapping the cables with that stuff. Will it work? Dunno...

-Josh2

Posted by: JPB Oct 16 2006, 04:27 PM

Funny how we all have that cable issue. NAPA has this sheathing that shields over stuff but its like $35 for 8ft. I figured on just routing the cables and such as well as possible and straping them to something close by instead.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 16 2006, 04:31 PM

QUOTE(JPB @ Oct 16 2006, 02:27 PM)

Posted by: gklinger Oct 16 2006, 05:07 PM

I used http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=THE%2D14015&N=700+0&autoview=sku heat sleeve to protect my cables. So far so good, although I haven't driven on any extended trips since I installed it.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 16 2006, 05:46 PM

hah... i double wrapped my cables with the asbestos reflective heat shield... and they still melted the rubber LOL

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 16 2006, 05:57 PM

A simple clamp holding the cables OFF the header has worked for me.

I install a long screw into a threaded block provision and use it as a standoff for a adel clamp that holds the cables up. Simple and runs about the cost of an adel clamp..lol

I dont EVER use the header wrap. It traps moisture and causes the header to rust even faster.

I STAMP the stub tubes prior to coating with the cylinder number. This way NOBODY can screw it up. I HATE laying under a car trying to install the header only to find out the stub tubes are incorrectly installed (European Racing header)


B

Posted by: jhadler Oct 16 2006, 07:16 PM

Brad,

What did you observe was the result of having the wrong stubs mounted on the motor. After talking with George, it sounds like you pretty much can't mount the stubs if they're wrong.

Good idea using the boss on the case as a mount for a standoff. I think I'll go that way.

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Oct 16 2006, 10:33 PM

Okay...

I pushed and shoved, loosened, wiggled, and Presto!! The collector fits!!!

<stewie> "victory is mine!!!"

But then I discovered that the muffler flange meets the header flange about an inch too high...

<homer> "D'Oh!!!"

This I think I can fix. Just weld a plate to the top of the mounting bracket to space the muffler an inch lower...

Oh well, a little bit closer each time...

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 16 2006, 10:48 PM

that last pis was what mine looks liek too


i kinda slotted the holes a little... and tweaked it to fit...

wierd.. mine is the same

Posted by: Type 4 Unleashed Nov 13 2006, 03:11 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Oct 16 2006, 08:33 PM)

Okay...

I pushed and shoved, loosened, wiggled, and Presto!! The collector fits!!!

<stewie> "victory is mine!!!"

But then I discovered that the muffler flange meets the header flange about an inch too high...

<homer> "D'Oh!!!"

This I think I can fix. Just weld a plate to the top of the mounting bracket to space the muffler an inch lower...

Oh well, a little bit closer each time...

Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 13 2006, 04:01 PM

with weltmeister solid poly mounts.. it still looks like that.... .5" misclosure

Posted by: jhadler Nov 13 2006, 04:35 PM

Well, instead of welding, I just fabricated some small adapter plates to bolt the muffler up with. Worked great, and the exhaust is D-O-N-E...

It's soooo close now. I just need to find a few hours to finish up the details and I can drop in a battery and....

Comments about the transmission mounts...

Why would -any- transmission mount make a difference?? The transmission is mounted to the engine, which defines the position of the header primaries, collector, and ultimately the muffler. Raising or lowering the end of the transmission will only effect how the muffler fits under the heatshield, and the rear valence. Raising or lowering the end of the transaxle only changes the angle of the entire system, but it won't change the relative posision of the collector with the transmission...

FWIW, I run Welty transmission mounts...

-Josh2