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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ LEO'S HEADS
Posted by: Type 4 Unleashed Oct 18 2006, 12:19 AM
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 12:30 AM
got some flow data?
they look nice....
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 12:37 AM
2.0 bus castings....
and your point is??? you say that like it;s a bad thing, they are obviously not stock...
plug between the valves and almost on same plane
other than that, sweet!
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 12:57 AM
Why not change the plug angle, seems like cheapish power to me
well, for one thing it's at least $300 just for that mod....
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 01:01 AM
I was just wondering....
if nobody ever wondered, we'd all be driving watercooled cars.
Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 18 2006, 01:19 AM
Britt....
Sometimes....
Your youngness... And arrogance....
Gets in the way of you learning....
I know....
I was you once....
Clayton
Posted by: Gint Oct 18 2006, 06:08 AM
I was just wondering....
if nobody ever wondered, we'd all be driving watercooled cars.
If you're wondering and not actually knowing, it's a better general idea to state things in the form of a question.
Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 18 2006, 08:32 AM
paper beats rock. quote beats delete. busted.
k
Posted by: Bleyseng Oct 18 2006, 09:41 AM
Why not change the plug angle, seems like cheapish power to me
well, for one thing it's at least $300 just for that mod....
I'm with Britt. Ya should have stepped up to the plate and done the mod instead of going halfway with these heads. Unless you are going to use them on a bus?
I like hp and more is mo'better.
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 09:53 AM
Why not change the plug angle, seems like cheapish power to me
well, for one thing it's at least $300 just for that mod....
I'm with Britt. Ya should have stepped up to the plate and done the mod instead of going halfway with these heads. Unless you are going to use them on a bus?
It's called "feature creep", sooner or later one must decide when to stop with upgrades/modifications, it's easy for you and Britt to critic when you 2 are not paying the bills
Posted by: Bleyseng Oct 18 2006, 10:05 AM
Hey, if you are gonna play ya gotta pay!
first off they are bus heads so they have small chambers which is good for compression but need alittle help. Looks like bigger valves but still could use more help with the plug mod-relocating and usingthe smaller plug.
if its just all done on the cheap "to git her runnin" on no money fine.
People just need to know the options given how many read/look at the threads.
I don't like using ole bus heads for anything 'cept door stops.
Posted by: anthony Oct 18 2006, 10:11 AM
I'm still wondering who Leo is. Posting pics with no info just leaves people guessing and speculating.
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 10:21 AM
I agree Geoff, but it seems like my opinion is worthless.
Would have been much better off with a 1.8L t4 head.
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 10:23 AM
Hey, if you are gonna play ya gotta pay!
first off they are bus heads so they have small chambers which is good for compression but need alittle help. Looks like bigger valves but still could use more help with the plug mod-relocating and usingthe smaller plug.
if its just all done on the cheap "to git her runnin" on no money fine.
"git 'er done"
People just need to know the options given how many read/look at the threads.
I don't like using ole bus heads for anything 'cept door stops.
And there lies a problem, yes, these are based on bus heads, but after these mods, are they really still those terrible as you say "bus" heads....you might as well say the same thing about those new castings that Jake and Len use
Posted by: nycchef Oct 18 2006, 10:25 AM
I'm still wondering who Leo is. Posting pics with no info just leaves people guessing and speculating.
leo imperial?
Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 18 2006, 10:28 AM
Interesting reading since half the thread is missing.
It's always easy to spend other peoples money on stuff....
For real content - The intake gaskets are going to be really thin at about 4 o'clock in the picture. My heads are the same way. I'm always worried that it will develop intake leaks there, although it never has. Has anyone ever had problems with intake leaks there???
Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 18 2006, 10:28 AM
I agree Geoff, but it seems like my opinion is worthless.
Would have been much better off with a 1.8L t4 head.
www.brittstypeIVhaus.com
be humble and you will learn....
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 10:36 AM
Humble only works to a certain point, then you get real damn tired of being chewed out for asking if a seller has papers to verify a rebuilt carb and engine.
Whatever 
Posted by: Bleyseng Oct 18 2006, 11:03 AM
Hey, if you are gonna play ya gotta pay!
first off they are bus heads so they have small chambers which is good for compression but need alittle help. Looks like bigger valves but still could use more help with the plug mod-relocating and usingthe smaller plug.
if its just all done on the cheap "to git her runnin" on no money fine.
"git 'er done"
People just need to know the options given how many read/look at the threads.
I don't like using ole bus heads for anything 'cept door stops.
And there lies a problem, yes, these are based on bus heads, but after these mods, are they really still those terrible as you say "bus" heads....you might as well say the same thing about those new castings that Jake and Len use
Its not the castings but the fact that these are 30 yr old heads that have been cooked by pushing around a bus! Aluminum is aluminum and I don't want for my heads crappy cooked heat cycled heads as its a waste of money.
You guys are always talking about spending money, well why start off using a turd for no matter how much money you spend its still a turd IMHO. Its fine to be cheap but heads are the weak point in aircooled motors.
Start off with a new casting or atleast the 914 1.7/1.8 heads as they weren't cooked to death by being in a bus.
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 11:09 AM
Hey, if you are gonna play ya gotta pay!
first off they are bus heads so they have small chambers which is good for compression but need alittle help. Looks like bigger valves but still could use more help with the plug mod-relocating and usingthe smaller plug.
if its just all done on the cheap "to git her runnin" on no money fine.
"git 'er done"
People just need to know the options given how many read/look at the threads.
I don't like using ole bus heads for anything 'cept door stops.
And there lies a problem, yes, these are based on bus heads, but after these mods, are they really still those terrible as you say "bus" heads....you might as well say the same thing about those new castings that Jake and Len use
Its not the castings but the fact that these are 30 yr old heads that have been cooked by pushing around a bus! Aluminum is aluminum and I don't want for my heads crappy cooked heat cycled heads as its a waste of money.
You guys are always talking about spending money, well why start off using a turd for no matter how much money you spend its still a turd IMHO. Its fine to be cheap but heads are the weak point in aircooled motors.
Start off with a new casting or atleast the 914 1.7/1.8 heads as they weren't cooked to death by being in a bus.
that is a generalization, who knows, maybe these had very low miles, obviously they are not "junk" since he was able to work with them. I totally see Jakes reason for not wanting to use bus heads, but you and expert Britt make all used bus heads to be worse than the plague.
Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 11:09 AM
Oh.. good point Geoff!!
B
Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 18 2006, 11:11 AM
mike...
i hate your new quoting system LOL
Posted by: Mueller Oct 18 2006, 11:14 AM
Oh.. good point Geoff!!
B
good point if one is seeking advise before hand...basicly Britt and Geoffs posts are telling us that the poster is an idiot for even considering the use of bus parts
Geoff, you owe me a beer next time I see you, you've got my blood pressure going thru the roof, hahahha
Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 18 2006, 11:36 AM
if it's leo, those heads might be destined for.... HIS BUS!! 
k
Posted by: ptravnic Oct 18 2006, 11:59 AM
If it is Leo Imperial, the heads are destined for his 914... We took his top end off a couple months ago, he's got 100mm p/c's to go w/the heads.
-pt
Posted by: Bleyseng Oct 18 2006, 12:12 PM
Oh.. good point Geoff!!
B
good point if one is seeking advise before hand...basicly Britt and Geoffs posts are telling us that the poster is an idiot for even considering the use of bus parts
Geoff, you owe me a beer next time I see you, you've got my blood pressure going thru the roof, hahahha
He's not a idiot as he has his reasons I am sure.
But other 914 guys are reading this and if you look at most of the used "BUS" heads they are cooked IMHO bases on my experience. I have tried the used rebuild bus head thing 20 years ago and had problems (cough, cough dropped seats) and installed new heads at quite a price even then.
Hopefully these are low mileage heads that haven't been abused in bus.
Remember, I have a 77 Bay Westy that I just finished rebuilding the 2.0L motor on. Only 115k on those heads that were IMHO toasted....and recyled at the dump.
Pulled studs, cracked, stripped plug holes etc....and this engine never had been apart, still factory assembled. CHT gauge reading were in the 375-400F range all te time when I drove it. Now its in the 300-350F range, much cooler.
So in closing, its ok that Leo is using these but for the rest of the 914 crowd its not.
I'll buy you a beer whenever or where ever we meet up again.
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 01:39 PM
WOW!!!
Let me start by saying... Thanks for posting the pictures
I wish I could have gotten time earlier to read this post.
So here is the story. The engine is the original 1.8 that came in the car - a 74 914.
In 1981 the PO had it rebuilt by Garitsons (spelling???) in Nor Cal. In 1984 the engine was pulled and replaced with a stock 2.0 from a wrecked 73'. I was told the swap was done to get around smog laws that had changed after the rebuild and of course I was told that the engine was solid and had no issues when pulled. 2 years ago I bought the car and the 1.8 came with it as part of the deal. I also go paperwork from the rebuild and the reciepts added up to over 3k. Pretty big chunk back in 81' IMHO.
So, here I was with a spare engine that I had been told was dino tested at 130 hp. Well that sound great, but lets be realistic. The guy could have said anything he wanted. It was not going to sway me on the purchase. I saw it as a free core. Anything more, well cool I'll take it.
A few weeks ago we started on Pete's "quick" rebuild and found ourselves with the shop for the day no work able to be done on Pete's engine until he got the new parts. Well who wants to waste a free use of a full service shop for a day and 7+ 914 guys getting together for the day. I put the 1.8 into the bus and brought it down that morning and we bench tested it on the floor of the shop. It ran great. I could have tossed it in my car and see how things went, but that would have been too easy.
So it is a free engine that is being cleaned up. That's it. I would love to throw money at it, but I can't. Trust me the amount I am spending goes up every day. Just like every mod "well while I am in there I might as well". It never stops. I just figured if I am going to clean up the heads why not let it breath a bit better. Port and polish turns into larger valves, turns into dual springs, turns into... relocating the plugs. Nah I'll stop here. For now.
BTW - My understanding was that these were the original 1.8 heads. My bad.
Oh and I would like to thank everyone for there input. I love this place
Here is the engine running for the first time in 20 years - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjitKUvzyIw
Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 03:28 PM
Call me stupid.. (call me whatever..lol)
I dont see what makes these "Bus" heads??
I have no/little experience outside of 914 2.0 engines.
B
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 03:43 PM
Call me stupid.. (call me whatever..lol)
I dont see what makes these "Bus" heads??
I have no/little experience outside of 914 2.0 engines.
B
Everything I have read tells me they are 1.8 heads from a 914. Bus heads have a domed chamber if I am correct and the 914 chamber is what I would call butterfly shape.
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 03:49 PM
The combustion chamber on a bus head is smaller than the combustion chamber on a 1.8 head, so the spark plug actually sits almost in between the valves, while the 1.8 head has the spark plug location out a little more towards the cylinder.
Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 18 2006, 03:56 PM
Leo,
Apparently you should of thrown those heads in the trash.
Or at least moved the spark plug location on both heads.
In the one day you had at the machine shop. Oh... and do the porting and the valve job and the time serts, the cleaning and the blasting in the same day.
You should not have used your free day with a bunch of bro's on those crap heads.
Apparently you wasted your time and your cash As they are GARBAGE...!!!
You should NOT have had the joy and the learning experience of porting your heads. Yup.. You wasted your time.
Furthermore you wasted all that machine shop time.
Therefore you wasted all your friends time there as well.... Shame on you Leo.
NOPE... you wasted your time. Those heads are 30 year old trash. How could you not know that??
NOPE, NOPE, NOPE.
Just toss em over the fence. You wasted all your money. Your time. And the joy of learning.
Next time... send the money to Briitt and Bleysing and have them take care of your heads.
Cause you don't know anything and you are sending a bad message of using old heads to the entire 914 club.
Shame on you Leo...
You must be as dumb as me.
Clayton 
Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 03:57 PM
OK. Got that. Can you show me pics of a 914 1.8 head? (if these are 914 heads??)
These look 914 to me..
B
Posted by: bottomend Oct 18 2006, 04:16 PM
great video of the engine on the floor!
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 04:22 PM
Leo,
Apparently you should of thrown those heads in the trash.
Or at least moved the spark plug location on both heads.
In the one day you had at the machine shop. Oh... and do the porting and the valve job and the time serts, the cleaning and the blasting in the same day.
You should not have used your free day with a bunch of bro's on those crap heads.
Apparently you wasted your time and your cash As they are GARBAGE...!!!
You should NOT have had the joy and the learning experience of porting your heads. Yup.. You wasted your time.
Furthermore you wasted all that machine shop time.
Therefore you wasted all your friends time there as well.... Shame on you Leo.
NOPE... you wasted your time. Those heads are 30 year old trash. How could you not know that??
NOPE, NOPE, NOPE.
Just toss em over the fence. You wasted all your money. Your time. And the joy of learning.
Next time... send the money to Briitt and Bleysing and have them take care of your heads.
Cause you don't know anything and you are sending a bad message of using old heads to the entire 914 club.
Shame on you Leo...
You must be as dumb as me.
Clayton
I am soooo stupid for trying. If only I had bought a subie or even better a 911 with a white interior.
Everyone that disagreed with me owes me a beer. No wait I can't find Casadores on the East Coast, so one of you Left coasters has got to send me a bottle. I need something good to drink as I put the engine back together the wrong way.
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 04:24 PM
OK. Got that. Can you show me pics of a 914 1.8 head? (if these are 914 heads??)
These look 914 to me..
B
Brad look at the pictures in the first post. They are from a 74' 1.8 914. They were modified (opened) for the 100mm P+C's.
Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 18 2006, 04:28 PM
Britt..... it's all about the kittens 
C
Posted by: ptravnic Oct 18 2006, 04:33 PM
Britt..... it's all about the kittens
C
meow
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 04:33 PM
I'm starting to get bugged out about some things.
Posted by: HAM Inc Oct 18 2006, 04:43 PM
Those are 1.8 heads. The reason Jake and I stay away from bus castings is because of the fatigue and cracking they usually suffer. If it isn't apparent after cleaning, it becomes evident when welding and machining.
The 1.7's don't suffer the effects of this as bad as the 1.8's, and they not as bad as the 2.0's. I no longer work with used 2.0 bus castings because of their propensity to crack from the outside of the ex. ports toward the inside of the ports. It's a very common problem with those heads.
It is true that not all bus heads have been abused. The problem is that in some cases it is dificult to tell until the work is begun. At that point the customer is already on the hook for some dough. Starting with bus castings is a crap shoot.
The 2.0 914 plug location is good for 10-15% more torque (and better fuel economy) than the side positon, depending on the application. The higher the revs the more the benefit, though every combo we've tested has shown at least a 10% gain. As far as improvements go it is hard to find more bang for your buck. It's is more affordable than the price listed on this thread.
Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 04:51 PM
Thanks Leo!
I have no idea why this thread went down the BUS path??
B
Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 18 2006, 04:54 PM
feel the love.
k
Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 18 2006, 05:00 PM
There is a good message on this thread.
I hope it is seen and understood.
The lessons are for me as well.
Thats why I love this place.
Clayton
Done ranting
Posted by: sixnotfour Oct 18 2006, 05:09 PM
Here is helpful reference
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tour/heads.shtml
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 05:11 PM
I could have sworn those were 2.0 bus heads. I'm an idiot lol
Posted by: nycchef Oct 18 2006, 06:50 PM
whew, glad that's cleared up. i couldn't have slept not knowing. leo call me tomorrow.
Posted by: Gint Oct 18 2006, 07:04 PM
Humble only works to a certain point, then you get real damn tired of being chewed out for asking if a seller has papers to verify a rebuilt carb and engine.
Whatever
Sure made yourself look innocent. I can dig up quotes from the recycle bin if you want.
- You didn't get chewed out.
- You didn't *just* ask if the seller had papers.
- You made a statement of fact in a classified ad stating that the seller's motor was a core when in fact it was installed in a running, driving 914 that the seller offered up for testing.
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 07:07 PM
Quotes beat deleted posts...
I'll sell my 1.7 too, for $1500...but i'll leave it in the car for testing.
You game?
I'm done with tearing this trhead apart. Feel free to call me out on a new thread or PM me.
hijack over.
oh and gint, I was asking if he HAD papers on it, if he did "I" would have bought it.
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 07:18 PM
Great link to tunacan thanks.
I hope no one is actually upset by what went on here. They are my heads and I had a blast reading it all. I am far from an expert and am here for the same reason that I think many others are. To learn and have fun. I read mucho posts (more than is advised by my doctor) and any other info I can get my hands on. Like others I try to put it all together for what will work for me on my budget. Mike Mueller started a poll not long ago asking how people felt about doing an engine rebuild. Some interesting replies came from it. I never replied, but will now. It is universal. If you are thinking about doing anything. Do some research get your info together and before you end up looking back saying I could have, I should have or I would have. Just do it! If it was easy and there was only one answer it would be dull. So it's not the best rebuild ever. It's my first and wont be my last. Who knows I may even learn something.
This virtual world we have here rocks and the cars are pretty damn cool.
Oh, and I love buses. Mine got me, my dog and my 914 from coast to coast without issue. Another thing some folks thought wouldn't work 
Hey, maybe I will build an engine for my bus next. I wonder how I should go about it 
For every kitten that dies three more are born 
Posted by: Gint Oct 18 2006, 07:19 PM
Quotes beat deleted posts...
I'll sell my 1.7 too, for $1500...but i'll leave it in the car for testing.
You game?
I'm done with tearing this trhead apart. Feel free to call me out on a new thread or PM me.
hijack over.
oh and gint, I was asking if he HAD papers on it, if he did "I" would have bought it.
Game for what? Your 1.7? Certainly not for $1500. It's not worth that but a good running 2.0 might very well be. I can quote your deleted posts. Are you sure you want to go down this road? I really don't, but...
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 07:23 PM
Do whatever you feel like you need to do.
I dont honestly care what you do, I just wanted some papers. I got a "rebuilt" engine with my 914 when I bought it, and the valve seats were trashed, etc. One was totally missing. New cylinders/pistons though. And yes Mark, they're going out this week.
I woudl think a rebuilt carb at least would have papers.
Posted by: Gint Oct 18 2006, 07:27 PM
Do whatever you feel like you need to do.
I dont honestly care what you do, I just wanted some papers. I got a "rebuilt" engine with my 914 when I bought it, and the valve seats were trashed, etc. One was totally missing. New cylinders/pistons though. And yes Mark, they're going out this week.
I woudl think a rebuilt carb at least would have papers.
We'll play it your way for now. I will say this. Asking the guy for papers was fine. Calling his motor a core was not. Don't undermine someone's ability to sell their parts in the classifieds.
I'm done. I have better things to do.
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 07:32 PM
Man I was feeling all warm and fuzzy after my post. Thinking about kittens.
I am just curious what point you guys are trying to bring this debate. If no one here really knows. Then what is the point of debating in this thread? I'm not saying don't. Just what is the score?
Posted by: bd1308 Oct 18 2006, 07:36 PM
Yeah I didnt understand the debate in this thread either, but I apologize for the hijack.
I suppose it was a seamless transition from me calling your heads bus heads, to calling some dude's unknown history engine a core engine.
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 08:02 PM
Yeah I didnt understand the debate in this thread either, but I apologize for the hijack.
I suppose it was a seamless transition from me calling your heads bus heads, to calling some dude's unknown history engine a core engine.
That's it I am putting them in my bus so this debate will end forever
Posted by: rick 918-S Oct 18 2006, 08:40 PM
I'm starting to get bugged out about some things.
easy young fella...
Thanks for the info. And nice Vid Leo!
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 18 2006, 08:48 PM
I'm starting to get bugged out about some things.
easy young fella...
Thanks for the info. And nice Vid Leo!Thanks Rick. You may not have caught him in the video, so here is a picture of my Ace Mechanic prepping the engine for the floor test. He even brought his own tools!
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Dr. Roger Oct 18 2006, 10:58 PM
holy shmikies batman,
he's 6" taller than I last remember!
Posted by: Twystd1 Oct 19 2006, 12:10 AM
AAAawwww CRAP...
Britt is perpetuating kittens being born!!!!!!!!........
just when I think I have all figured out.
ILTP..
C
Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 19 2006, 06:54 AM
leo, why are you putting 914 heads in your bus!!? are you crazy? 
k
Posted by: nycchef Oct 19 2006, 06:57 AM
That's it I am putting them in my bus so this debate will end forever
[/quote]
that's what you think.
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 19 2006, 07:10 AM
leo, why are you putting 914 heads in your bus!!? are you crazy?
k
That was wit my friend.
And Richie don't worry acording to this thread you can get a good running 2.0 for a fair price of $1500
Gee I hope I didn't misquote anyone.
Posted by: nycchef Oct 19 2006, 09:11 AM
That was wit my friend.
sorry i misunderstood. i thought i was the witty one.
why can't i get those "qoute" brackets to work?
Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 19 2006, 03:05 PM
why can't i get those "qoute" brackets to work?
It helps if you spell "quote" correctly...
The easiest way to do the quotes is to click "reply" on the post you want to quote. Just make sure you leave the tags that look a little like "[ quote name='blablabla' date='date' post='idnumber' ]" and "[ /quote ]" (except without spaces between the square brackets and the rest of it) in your reply.
--DD
Posted by: TROJANMAN Oct 19 2006, 06:20 PM
wow, i just had an ALPHA flashback 
are those titanium heads? 
Posted by: Type 4 Unleashed Oct 20 2006, 07:43 PM
Posted by: Leo Imperial Oct 20 2006, 08:44 PM
Heads 101
The 914 type 4 head in 1.8 ltr & 2.0 ltr have the largest valves of any type 4 head.
The 2.0 ltr head is identified by the 3 stud manifold mounting.
To the untrained eye the 1.8 ltr looks like all the rest, int side wise with 4 stud manifold mounting.
Due to the larger valves on the 1.8 & 2.0 head, the int ports are larger, and because of these larger ports, a hump is apparent on these heads for support of the int valve guides. This hump goes from the manifold mounting surface down the port to the valve guide.
The valves on these are 44 x 38.
Thanks again for posting the pictures. They are the best looking Bus heads I have ever seen.
Posted by: SLITS Oct 21 2006, 10:10 AM
I wanna a picture of the fuchin' rocker box so I can see the part number.
Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 01:35 PM
Wow, buuuuus heads roooooock. I needs me soma dems!
I sold a 2L engine for 1.5K.
Posted by: Type 4 Unleashed Oct 21 2006, 09:27 PM
Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 21 2006, 09:32 PM
nice one richard
Posted by: Type 4 Unleashed Oct 23 2006, 06:22 PM
Attached image(s)
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