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Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 04:24 PM

I have BMW 320i front breaks and was wondering if they bolt straight to the back break location. If I wanted to remove my Pvalve and use Eric's T, is there a front break that can handle the setup as mentioned. What would be a close second, with an after market adjustable Pvalve, if the rears hava to a mucha MMMMMMMACHIZMOoooo!

Speak oh all knowing sages of good fortune..........

Posted by: brant Oct 18 2006, 04:30 PM

tough Break....

ha... made myself laugh.

big brakes are mostly extra weight.
if you don't have big HP then you don't need big brakes.
the racers will tell you; "all they do it make you slower"

brant

Posted by: jhadler Oct 18 2006, 04:32 PM

Brant beat me to it...

The question is "why do you need BIG brakes?". Unless you've got big power, and are running hard at a track, big brakes do little more than add weight.

-Josh2

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 04:42 PM

You fellas don't miss a freeking detail, I love it Lets just say, big engine on the way, if I win this ebay thing I'm on right now.

Just to share, I just found a three foot black snake in my bedroom like three minutes ago. He came from the hole from under the floor. Little bastid must be looking for a place to hybernate. Didn't jump on him since I didn't know if it was a coperhead until I switched the light on. Not good; specialy with the girls.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 04:54 PM

I helped you out a little bit..

I changed the title of your post. I didnt want people to think you could'nt speel.

Look for 6 piston Cayenne Turbo Calipers. They use the same pad as a 6 piston GT3 street car, but the caliper costs HALF what the GT3 caliper costs. It mounts just a tad different, but that doesnt matter, you'll need custom mounting anyway.


B

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 05:06 PM

Thanks for the help with the not being able to spell thing being that I'm really not able tooo spell.LOL

Cool info and wondered if it would all be cool with no booster and such. I don't know much about them setups. Way cool info by the way.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 05:33 PM

Oh.. dont worry.. it will take both of your feet and the passengers feet to get it to stop..LOL

Honestly.. a 23mm would work fine.



B

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 05:40 PM

Thanks and will look into it ASAP.

Posted by: davep Oct 18 2006, 05:53 PM

Up to 250 HP with 911S brakes are fine. That is all the GT's used, and pretty much everything bigger just costs more. Might even slow you down also. However, if you are into the bling factor, just spend cubic dollars until you break.

Posted by: Jeroen Oct 18 2006, 06:09 PM

what you gonna do with brakes that big on a 914

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 06:12 PM

I might not be the fastest from 0-60 but 60->0 look out!

When SHE says STOOOOOP!

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 06:14 PM

Cubic $$$ first until she don't strop fast enough.

I have 320s, SS break lines and 19mm MC and still isen't that impresive but stops alot faster than stock at like 75MPH. Schmit, stock was just down right scary at first.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 18 2006, 06:39 PM

Hmmmmmmmm, how so? If stock brakes can lock up the tires can someone explain how BMW brakes will stop it any faster with the same tires?

Posted by: Headrage Oct 18 2006, 06:44 PM

Live in the country do we?

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 06:48 PM

I would never dought you sir and hell, I never pushed them hard enough to locked them up!LOL On stock tires! LOL I never pushed hard enough? I like push until it fells kinds spongy and then hard and then stop pushing. Did I woos out on my foot preasure? Was I a manjina?

Only drove it like three times before it got to the paint shop and still haven't given it hell yet. At least the " I Know what I'm doing" kinda hell.

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 06:54 PM

Yes and it's quiet and peaceful. I have mice in the fall/winter, lizards in the summer and now snakes before the cold weather. Last year, a friend stayed over and had the doors open as he slepped peacefully before I got home late one evening. When I went into the bathroom, there was a drowned opposum in the toilet.

:beer1:Lots of protein in these parts.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 18 2006, 06:54 PM

If giant, mondo, stop the earth's rotation, Boing 707 disc brakes float your boat

than get them. I got the deal of a lifetime on Wilwood superlites(F) and 911T®

Calipers( Thanks Chris Julian), if this deal had not come about I would have been content with stock

binders. But sence they did.....

The Superlites are lighter than the stock cali's, how would that slow me down?

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 06:57 PM

Correct! They would only slow you down if you used them.

Those callipers were a sweet score

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 07:06 PM

Brant's only half right. Big horsepower isn't it.

If you can lock up your brakes with a stock setup, then your brakes are defeating the integral friction between the tires and the road. Bigger brakes don't help because they do the same. Get bigger tires. Then you may not be able to lock 'em up anymore. THEN get bigger brakes.

To get your stopping distance to a minimum, run the biggest goddamn tires you can pack in there, and get the SMALLEST brakes that you can lock up with. Remember that unsprung weight affects your tire-to-road stickiness. So lighter wheels too. Certain aero devices can assist.

Meanwhile. Putting the big tires and aero devices on affect your acceleration and top speed too. So then you need the big horsepower.

What it comes down to is that you'll have to compromise. And make very informed decisions.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 18 2006, 07:08 PM

I.... agree... with...

(I can't say it... I can't)

Posted by: scotty b Oct 18 2006, 07:11 PM

So what you're saying is that since I can lock up the brakes on my Suburban I need to get rid of the 33x12.5 tires (see above pic) and install bigger ie. 44x15.5 tires? Or should I remove the stock Chebby brakes and put a set of teener brakes on???

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 07:22 PM

I shouldn't have to repeat myself. It's posted clearly for everyone to see.

Yes.

If you wanted your suburban to stop faster, then you would increase your footprint (tire size and pressure), thereby increasing the load on your brakes, allowing them to do the maximum amount of work. Or put on smaller brakes so that you get better traction by unloading the unsprung weight.

Posted by: Jeroen Oct 18 2006, 07:24 PM

Alpha is right
(there, I said it )

I've driven cars with the "must have them because all the racers do" big reds and it sucked BIG TIME
NO brake modulation what so ever... you twitch your little toe and the brakes lock up
And those cars where way heavier than a 914

Posted by: scotty b Oct 18 2006, 07:29 PM

Would it help if I had titanium brakes?

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 07:35 PM

Modulation is a whole different problem that I haven't addressed yet.

The problem is that alot of the less informed will *just* buy huge brakes and not the proper biasing valves. A biasing valve limits the pressure to the brakes, thereby increasing your stopping distance, since the pressure you will bias it to will be very close to stock AND now you've got these big honking shin-beaters hanging off of each hub.

But if your brakes are capable of locking, then you aren't getting the maximum amount of resistance against the ground. That's the simplest way to put it. Heavy wheels affect this too, by generating more wheel momentum. Still another variable. Rubber is heavier than aluminum too. Another variable. Plenty more.

Posted by: xitspd Oct 18 2006, 07:38 PM

In my humble opinion, horsepower along with weight can add to making one fast, it is however corner exit speed where one can out brake another to make a pass. You need to have the brakes to enter the corner late and settle the car down, then hit the gas to excellerate out of the corner with the pass.

Dan (xitspd)

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 07:39 PM

Yes TI is good.

The brake body is best off aluminum because it disperses heat the best. But a titanium piston is the best because it doesn't conduct much heat back into the body.

Managing brake heat is step 1 to prevent brake fade, yet another variable. (Brake fade often exists even if the pilota doesn't notice it.)

Posted by: JPB Oct 18 2006, 07:41 PM

The above is correct since more tire surface on the pavement requires more friction on the pads to stop. This info is awsome in that we hear stuff from others who have learned all them dos and don'ts and understand the pros and cons.

So the saying is, the least amount of caliper for the tire size to equal good breaking short of locking up or close to it under reasonable foot preasure.

:beer1:Titanium, where do i get soma dem? Are they like huge rotors and everything?

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 07:43 PM

I don't know where you can get titanium pistons for your calipers. I make my own.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 18 2006, 07:52 PM

I'm normally quiet on this subject (shocking, I know) because some of the major players and some of my close friends disagree with me on this.

I believe that there's (virtually) no such thing as too much brake.

I have PCCB 6-piston Brembos on 996TT fronts and '86 930 rears. The modulation is perfect and the braking is 'hand-of-god' in ways that most people can't understand.

If you're capable of pilot-modulation at the limit, you should use real brakes. Don't use less brake because you're incapable, become a better driver.

If you have 200hp+, get REAL brakes. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

My brakes ARE NOT just for 'cool factor'.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 07:59 PM

Series9: How big are your tires? Are they slicks? and (Here's the big one) what pressure do you run them at warm? You may be making one hell of a footprint and just have a good combo with those brakes.

And... No. I'm saying that I won't make them for anyone else. Ti is in limited supply.


Did I mention that I make Ti rods professionally now?

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 18 2006, 08:01 PM

Yeah! What he said!!!

I ran stock brakes with a 2270. Hit 140mph on the back straight at the Glen. It would stop, but not exactly fun. With Raybestos pads I could lock them up whenever I wanted. With cooling I could drive 35+ minutes with no fade. But, I could kill stock pads in under 1 20 min. session. I could kill Porterfield R4 in 2-4 sessions. Raybestos in 2 days.

Put on Wilwood Superlites all the way around and haven't worn the pads yet. "Hand of God" stopping with great modulation. Best $500 I've spent in a while.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 18 2006, 08:09 PM

My fronts are GT2 PCCB 6-piston Brembos on 996TT rotors, using Pagid Yellows with 225/40-17 Kuhmo MXs.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 18 2006, 08:09 PM

I was about to say "I agree with alpha..."

But I dissagree with the whole Ti thing. SS is a great material for pistons as its thermal conductivity SUCKS. That's a good thing. Less heat transfered to the brake fluid through the caliper the better.

-Josh2

Posted by: wbergtho Oct 18 2006, 08:17 PM

Generally, you don't need to put more brake on your car than is necessary. I have 930 calipers and rotors on all four corners of my V-8 car and they don't fade on the road course. Although Big reds or the bigger 6 piston beauties are awesome pieces...I don't know that I would brake any better with them installed. I can lock up my front tires (245/40/18's) before my rear 285/30/18s lock...just what you want.

Oh, By the way, I had BMW 320 brake calipers on the front of my old 71 2.0 liter 4 clyinder car...and was quite pleased with the braking!

Posted by: Series9 Oct 18 2006, 08:20 PM

It's a combination of skill and fade. Forget about the ability to 'lock them up'. It means nothing.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 18 2006, 08:28 PM

So you should probably get ceramic pistons.

Posted by: jeff Oct 18 2006, 08:28 PM

Big,light,wide,adjustable,cool and sticky,series9 brakes r sure purdy!Parachutes?

Posted by: retrotech Oct 18 2006, 08:28 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: alpha434 Oct 18 2006, 08:42 PM

Thermal conductivity of ss can't even compare with Ti. We'll set plans at kevins and I'll bring some sample billet that we can heat on a stove.

And yes. After Ti, there is thermal barrier ceramic coatings. But ceramic pistons don't have good rep because of cracking, chipping, shattering, etc. But it's lighter. And at 2000$ for just enough material to do the fronts, who could go wrong?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 18 2006, 08:52 PM

I don't disagree with that as long as it's a well thought out system. The problem is in the following areas:

1. People constantly think they are under-braked when really their brakes be broke. New pads, new fluid and new lines would solve their problems.

2. A lot of people don't seem to have enough money to perform proper rust maintanence on their vehicles, yet they are eager to follow the masses suggesting their brakes suck. This gets expensive fast.

3. Most people have a 1.7-2.0 95hp max engine, a narrow body teener and stock size rims with the largest rubber they can fit. You have a 3.6 993 Euro spec six cylinder with a maxed out trick 915 in your car. You also have flares and a massive amount of very expensive rubber on your car.

4. You have more in your brakes than most people have in their cars. I realize not everyone would go that route but... for a majority of 914 owners with warmed over 4 cylinder engines, that would be money wasted.

5. Any amount spent on larger calipers or BMW "upgrades" could be better spent for your average teener. Do you have a sway-bar? How about a nice set of Konis? How about some Elephant or Roller bushings? How about a hell hole kit and fix some rust? How about putting that toward a nice paint job?

6. Most people throw caution to the wind and simply bolt up "anything" that has a 3" ear and fits their solid rotor without thinking that maybe, just maybe, there was a Porsche engineer at the other end of their brake system. When Porsche changed the front brakes on the 914, they also changed the rears...ya think? How many so called "upgrades" can make that claim?

I'm not diss'n on Joe. If you have that amount of money to spend on brakes and that's what you want, do it. Spend the time to think it through as a Porsche engineer would, get the proper balance and write some checks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Joe's brake system (except maybe a handbrake... but that can be rectified, write more checks). I think he did it right. Those brakes won't even break a sweat.

I just like to look at this as a practical application. We are in JPB's thread here and I believe he has a 4-cylinder narrow body teener. Most people here do. Most people here haven't spent a great deal of time getting:

a ) Excellent Pads. (let's face it... how many have coughed up $100 for a set when you can get a set for $25??)
b ) Changing their fluid every 6 months.
c ) Excellent tire/rubber compounds.
d ) New rubber lines.
e ) A properly bled system.

Bottom Line. Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and a well set up brake system and Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and the largest brakes you can find, would probably stop within the same distance. The difference is money.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 18 2006, 09:16 PM

Fair enough.

However, there are modern, advanced solutions to braking safety for a /4.

Luckie's car will get 4-piston Brembos in front (if not, all around). 986? 951? 911?.......Not sure yet. It'll be a more average system than the RS, but she's still going to get modern components that are capable of WAY more than the stock system.

I'm aware that I put brakes on my car that are 'one-off'. And yes, they cost me a lot of money.

For $1200, I can put absolutely awesome MODERN PORSCHE brakes on her car. More than enough for the upcoming 3.2.

That's what I'm going to do. Your milage may vary.

I love you Eric

Posted by: 396 Oct 18 2006, 10:57 PM

Joe,

To my knowledge, your combo of 6 piston / yellow Brem came on the GT2's..
along with the Pagid Yellows..

To max out the front some more, you need the GT3 ( 996 / 997) front rotor
to match.

The 996 fronts are a bit ( 2-3 mm) smaller

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2006, 01:51 AM

what I didn't see JBP mention was does he have vented rotors or not..if solid rotors, then NO, there are no more "upgrades" for solid rotors....


if 4-lug go with the billet hubs which allow 911 vented rotors (and matching calipers) or convert to 5 lug (more options for bigger brakes with the '83(?) and up 3.5" spacing struts)


12.25" diameter vented rotors...I sold the "mazda" calipers and will be going with something else....911 rotors are 11" diameter up to '89

Posted by: Jeroen Oct 19 2006, 08:23 AM

funny... you mention 'hand-of-god' braking
actually, that is exactly what I meant, because THAT is total lack of modulation...
you THINK you are braking really hard
what you are actually doing is rudely stomping on your brakes, except it isn't your foot doing that, but your brake system
IOW... no control

your tire grip dictate your stopping distance and anyone who tells any different is BS-ing

only reason to step up in caliper/rotor size is for better heat dissipation
(lessen the chance of brake fade)

YMMV, but I'm not gonna spend money to ADD unneeded unsuspended weight

Posted by: Sammy Oct 19 2006, 08:36 AM

IMHO, it is very easy to have too much brakes.
Bling factor and keeping up with the jones has people putting the biggest brakes they can get on their cars and all they do is add unsprung weight.

Brake size should be determined by weight, top speed, and traction of tires. If you have more brakes than tire traction you don't need any more.

Horsepower has absolutely nothing to do with it unless you are using that power to increase the speed you need to stop from.

Posted by: yeti Oct 19 2006, 09:04 AM

I run 930 brakes front and Gt style with vented rotors rear. Perfect and I can keeb the 15 Fuchs tires that I really love. Tires are Yokohama semi slicks - I think I'm well prepared. I wiil properbly change to 930 in a few years on the rear but I have not really looked in the e-brake issue. But this system works well.

Yeti

http://imageup.de/my.php?image=dsc02398.6oj.jpg

http://imageup.de/my.php?image=dsc02400.2zl.jpg

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 19 2006, 09:50 AM

Love you to Joe

Modern, advanced and safety are all good words. I'm just concerned they can be misleading. "Now I've got to run out and get some modern, advanced calipers because they're safer."

Modern is true. There's 36 years in there but... they're still disk brakes. I don't see any advances that would allow one to stop a 914 faster. The only advancement with modern calipers has been the addition of electronic control like anti-lock modulation. This takes the bad driver out of the equation. In a panic situation, most people will slam it down. Anti-lock brakes have been a good thing. I've yet to see that adapted to a 914. The most modern ones you can stuff under a teener today will still stop it in the same distance those old 36 year old calipers will.

Advanced... true. Again, 36 years, 4 pots, 6 pots, aluminum to save weight but... they're still calipers with pistons and the exact same brake fluid you can buy off the shelf. None of those advancements mean anything when stopping a 914. The most advanced ones you can stuff under a teener today will still stop it in the same distance those old 36 year old calipers will.

Saftey... that'll scare people. On one hand, if viewed in light, this is an oxymoron. Brakes = Saftey. I'm not sure how a modern, advanced caliper with pistons and fluid is safer than a 36 year old (well maintained) caliper with pistons and fluid. I honestly don't see any saftey advances in the calipers. Electronics, such as the anti-lock technology discussed earlier, yes. There are pad sensors now-a-days that let you know when your pads are getting scary but I've yet to see anyone rig that light into the dash. The safest ones you can stuff under a teener today will still stop it in the same distance those safe old 36 year old calipers will.

Let me revise my bottom line a bit: Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and a well set up and extremely safe stock brake system and Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and the most modern, advanced and safest brakes you can find, will stop within the same distance. The difference is money.

I just want people to know that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a stock brake system that is in proper operating condition. If you feel a need to go big. Go big. Do it wisely. If you think you can outsmart a Porsche engineer... go for it.

I've said this before: Do youself a favor and head to an HRS event. Walk through the pits and take pictures of Frank Beck's 914 (specifically the S-Calipers bolted on the front and the M-Calipers on the rear). Find Bill Lewis Jr.'s car... same brakes. In fact, every car in that class will have those brakes. It's mandated. Those two will be battling it out for the top spot. They're two of the most advanced 914 race cars you'll find. Watch the action. They're fast. It's exciting to see 914's go that fast. If you think you need more brake than that... Godspeed.

OK... I'm gonna shut up now. Right about now, Joe's fantasizing about slamm'n on the middle pedal and watching me fly through the passengers side of the windshield.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 19 2006, 10:57 AM

I get such a chuckle from reading these BREAK threads.

Series 9 that is the cleanest race car I have seen in quite awhile.

Kumho MX's I bet you think they have great grip too.

Best way to stop a 36 year old 914 is to pull some wieght off of it. fix the stock stuff. and then learn how to drive.

Threshold braking is an art.

I run 225/50-15 Hankook RS-2 tires on light rims. it stops better than any car I have ever owned including my 928.

Put my real slicks on the car with 15 lb rims and the braking is near 1.01 Decleration G's That's from 100 ish MPH to 50 ish MPH to get thru turn 4 @ my little red neck track NPR.

So what's you G meter say Mr. big ass brakes

Posted by: Series9 Oct 19 2006, 11:10 AM

Actually, I mentioned modulation and braking as two different components of the system.

And yes, I understand the difference. Because I'm moving 20 pistons with a 19mm MC, my system goes to maximum braking at relatively light pressure and because the pedal actually moves, it's also easy to modulate.

I put 6-piston Brembos on the front of my car because it had never been done on a 914. That aside, I have an excellent brake system that's a pleasure to use.

As for fade, thermal capacity is also an excellent reason to upgrade from stock.

Again, simply saying that your brakes are capable of lock-up, is not seeing the whole picture. Bigger brakes are capable of more rapid deltas (change in speed over time). I can take my brakes to maximum effort VERY quickly. That's the 'hand-of-god' effect I speak of. Take a ride with me and you'll understand. And yes, it matters on the track and on the street (if confronted with an emergency stop).

There's more to it than simple adhesion of the tire. In fact, there's a lot more.



My best advice on two issues that are popular here:

1. Don't decide a /4 is better than /6 until you drive a /6.

2. Don't decide stock brakes are better until you drive big brakes.

Make an INFORMED decision instead of sitting around speculating.

Posted by: davep Oct 19 2006, 11:16 AM

I don't think I've ever seen brake misspelled as break more often than here. Or any other term spelled incorrectly as often.

Threshold braking is the important thing. If you have too much brake for the tires / road surface / conditions then all you do is lock up and slide. At best you flat spot your tires, at worst, well I shudder to think. When you slide you don't have full control, and you don't stop as quickly as with threshold braking. ABS will put you in between.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 19 2006, 11:51 AM

I don't think I've ever seen brake misspelled as break more often than here. Or any other term spelled incorrectly as often.



I speeled it rong on purpus.

Posted by: Series9 Oct 19 2006, 12:01 PM

Wow Joe. Who pissed in your Cheerios.

1. It's not a race car. Those pictures were taken during the first assembly. I hope it's OK with you that it was new at one time.

2. The MXs are an obvious compromise for the street. I made the decision based on the fact that I was going to drive the car 900 miles to WCC05 when the car was first complete.

3. I don't have a G meter, but thanks for the attitude anyway.

Posted by: Jeroen Oct 19 2006, 12:03 PM

that's exactly what I'm doing (making a decision based on experience)

seeing that you are using a 19mm master cylinder changes things
that would give you more control over those big suckers

yes, I think it's cool that you pulled it off to mount those on your car
but I also think they're overkill and you can get equal braking performance for less money without adding unsprung weight

Posted by: andys Oct 19 2006, 12:19 PM

I'm going to be installing '89 Carrera brakes all around on my V8 conversion. I'm thinking this will be a good base line in case future upgrades are considered. My initial impression was how heavy those cast iron calipers are, and thinking maybe the pad area was a bit small. To my surprise though, the pad area is nearly the same as 4 pot NDL Wilwood's.

A couple of observations regarding brakes and braking. First, if you look at any modern semi-performance auto, they all have very large rotors and calipers; Mercedes, 350Z/G35, etc. Perhaps they're better suited to ABS; I don't know. Second, in-experienced racers tend to have a common approach to driving until they gain more experience. That being they often feel the need to brake hard and deep to be fast and lack attending to other areas. This leads to over-using the brakes which results in overheating and fade; blaming the in-adequate brakes. As such, the tendency is look to the braking system to correct or reduce lap times. So, on go the huge brakes.

Andys

Posted by: PRS914-6 Oct 19 2006, 12:36 PM

A couple of points that need to be made here.....

Use of the car has to be determined first. If you run on the track and generate a lot of heat, you need more heat capacity in the system (brakes and rotors) If you run on the street, too much heat capacity will hurt you and cost you needlessly. Most brake pads like to be warm to work properly. On the street, they don't get real hot and it may truly be a waste of money to upgrade since you will never get them real hot (or even hot enough) Ever notice that lot's of pads work better after you make a few stops and they get warm?

I also disagree with a blanket statement of "more hoprsepower requires more brakes". It only applies again if you are racing (or significantly raise the weight of the vehicle) and it assumes you will get a higher top speed from point "A" to point "B", again generating more heat that will need to be off loaded. It also assumes thaat the original brakes were borderline to begin with. You could have more horespower and not significantly increase the loads on the brake system when used on the street. There is of coure more "potential" to generate more heat.

Anyway, I only suggest that brake suggestions need to be stated for their intended use. Most everyone is correct, just the way they are used is different.

Over simplified:

Smaller brakes for street
Bigger brakes for track

Another issue is the ability of the system to stop the vehicle with reasonable peddle pressure. I have a 71 Chevy truck, you had to stand on the peddle with both feet to stop the thing. VERY scary. I tried everything including bigger booster, new calipers, 4 different brake pads. The brakes never faded though even towing. Solution: A hydra boost system. It stops just like a late model truck now. Again, not a fade or heat issue, I just couldn't get enough pressure on the system.

Posted by: brant Oct 19 2006, 12:43 PM

Andy,
my theory about modern cars having big brakes is because most cars average around 3300lbs a piece. I'll bet trucks average over 4000lbs/each. So I believe that

1) they need lots of heat dissapation due to their grossly fat tonage. In fact someone tell me if Heat friction from braking is linear with weight or is it exponential?

and
2) manufacturers would rather put an extra 20lbs of rotor on a vehicle than face any liability for brake fade.

Manufacturers have ALWAYS built vehicles to the lowest common denominator.. or in other words: "the most stupid consumer"
at least with the current state of world affairs on liability and law suits they will.

That is not a commentary on JoeRS brakes or anyone else on this forum.
I appreciate the neat things that have been done by people on this forum.
but If I have to anne up my opinion, I believe that a properly rebuilt, properly rebled stock system with GOOD (pagid) PADS, and modern tires will be very sufficient for race/street cars that aren't able to top 140 - 150mph

brant

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2006, 01:28 PM

My take on this is that the original poster wanted BIG brakes for the sake of having them, not needing them....if he was serious about building a "race" car, then he would have thrown the BMW calipers in the trash and not even considered using them on the rear.

Nothing wrong with overkill or having more than what is needed if that is what you WANT..the only time overkill is really a bad thing is if you are paying someone for something that you don't need yet the seller insists you need it just to make a buck....

I don't see Joes brake system as true overkill since he never said he needed those huge calipers...it was something he wanted.

Do I need 12" rotors?? He// no, but I want them, so it's not overkill since I am not trying to justify the need for them by saying something smaller won't work.

You might as well say a 3.2 is overkill compared to a 3.0 if you don't need the extra power....

Posted by: davep Oct 19 2006, 02:00 PM

Braking converts kinetic energy into heat. Kinetic energy is basically mass times velocity. In a car you have two kinds of velocity, linear speed and rotational speed.
Braking involves the coefficient of friction times the surface area, and those areas are the pads and the tire contact patch.

You could say the braking heat dissipation is roughly linear with vehicle weight. Note that a significant amount of heat is generated in the tires when braking, not all the heat has to be dissipated in the brake rotors. Larger tires have more surface area for cooling purposes as well.

Posted by: Mountain914 Oct 19 2006, 02:03 PM

Not sure if I missed it - and maybe I'm thinking incorrectly.
I would assume if you go to a larger diameter wheel, you have just increased the rotational mass, and hence, it would be harder to stop that mass (sorry, I am no physics major). Anyway - My biggest mistake was tossing my /6 Calipers , but that's another story.
So - I see lots of SUV's and such that have gone to "DUBS" (i.e. 20 inch wheels), but have kept the same brakes. Far as I can tell, they stop OK, but guessing it's a lot more wear and tear on the pads ?

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2006, 02:15 PM

The stock /4 rotors are larger diameter than many modern cars, in fact our 3200 lb Volvo has smaller brakes than a stock 914 except on the Volvo they are vented

Even my 2001 Huyndai has smaller brakes than the 914...the 914 was ahead of it's time for the size of rotors used...

Posted by: JPB Oct 19 2006, 03:08 PM

Sweet posting fellas! So, if I remove my P-valve and use a T, will this in any way change my breaking power/feel with the setup I have now. Like I said, I was not impressed with the stock breaks so I went bigger.

Posted by: brant Oct 19 2006, 03:12 PM

JPB,

you have a good way of starting the #hit storm around here.
your comment about removing the proportioning valve is bound to start the next round!

let me ask you:
- did you rebuild, re-bleed, and service your stock brakes in any way?

I'd recommend that you do that, and that you get the fresh fluid through there to alieviate some of the spongie-ness you feel.

might want to rebuild your pedal cluster if it happens to have shot bushings too...

then buy good brake pads (have I mentioned PAGID makes nice pads for the street?) and decent tires.
Yes the pads will cost you 200$ for all 4 wheels.

MANY guys race in PCA production class with exactly that set up.
you would be surprised what that set up is capable of.

brant

Posted by: JPB Oct 19 2006, 03:25 PM

Yup, yup, yup. All blead, all new, SS break lines, new fluid dot3 .......,19mm master new but the pads might be the culprit being like $20 for the fontsLOL.

Stuff on the car for those who think of upgrades:
Konis F/B
FG bumpers 916
CF lids
front swaybar stock for now, have rears but won't install
Break upgrade? or just more crap, you be the judge
POS tired four banger looking to be, upgradedLOL
At the paint shop
Role bar
long stiffener kit like available here but my own
galv. floor flat
header & S-trap
stiff rear shocks of unknown dinomination
holding a continous hard on for carbon fiber parts gimme gimme

Breaks, the "hand of the break god" kind would be nice

Never undercut the beer funds and let the schmit fly!

Posted by: brant Oct 19 2006, 03:29 PM

I've actually taken cars in to have them power bled
(a teener 15 years ago)
after failing to get rid of the spongy feeling.

I'm thinking that you need to buy some ATE and take it to a shop or at a minimum bleed it again.

some times cracking a line can help (although it plays hell on new paint)
I've even gotten rid of the stock P-valve in exchange for an adjustable valve

(didn't like the T.. don't recommend it for street use on stock brakes or anything that you can't extensively test out... doubt you want to go off the road backwards into a guard rail? I went off the road backwards at 80mph in my testing, luckily no guard rail was involved though)

so go buy good pads
maybe an adjustable valve
buy some ATE
do another bleed or pay someone to do it until the spongy-ness is gone.

brant

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2006, 03:33 PM

1st off, do you drive another car with POWER brakes???

That alone could be a huge factor in why you feel your brakes need work....

You are aware that the floor where the brake assembly is mounted can weaken and can flex during braking??? ( someone sells a brace in the resource area)

The system might still have some air in it, did you bleed in the following order??

pass side rear, drivers side rear, pass side front, drivers side front

Did you tap the calipers when bleeding to get more air bubbles?

Pressure bleed or pump'n the pedal?

Posted by: davep Oct 19 2006, 03:36 PM

I am a physicist. As the wheel size increases more of the mass tends to move outwards thus increasing the inertia of the wheel and thus its kinetic energy. The velocity of the outer rubber surface will be the same as the road speed of the vehicle. That means the taller wheels tend to rotate more slowly, that is fewer revolutions per mile.

If you go to a vented rotor from a solid rotor the mass is usually greater, thus it takes more energy to spin up to speed and more energy has to be dissipated to slow it back down. However, a vented rotor tends to dissipate heat faster into the air than a solid rotor. Eventually all heat generated goes into the air or into the ground.

Posted by: JPB Oct 19 2006, 03:43 PM

Maybe its that not power break thing that gets me. The feel is just like stock and at 1/2" of travel, the pedal gets hard just like it should. Good ATE stuff might do the trick and some real pads. I must mention that there is alot of feel though and good response when using these standard breaks. I've called spongy when you hit them hard and the car slows down but they don't seem to want to lock at anytime during the stoping process. It's probably the pads and me together that is the problem.

That darn PROPORTIONING VALVE is probably the biggest problem right fellas, the biggest problem of the spongy, squishy, inadequate, usless POS part ? Should I put in the DAMN TEE or what?

I need the healing hand of God.

Posted by: Mueller Oct 19 2006, 03:54 PM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 19 2006, 03:59 PM

BMW's are similar in piston size with the M. He could use the T but I agree... check the balance in a light pole free parking lot.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 19 2006, 04:12 PM

I am going to replace mine with a adjustable valve, PP has them amongst others.

Your brakes, in an ideal world should not lock up, the stock brakes on my teener

do not lock up but it stops fast enough to submarine a 200 lb construction worker

into the foot well. (time for 5 point harness's) If they lock up you will slide instead

of stopping. Try the new pads and fluid, bleed all the air out and you should feel

the difference. Boy this was one of those " My dick is bigger so it's better" kind

of threads. Everyone is going to have a different opinion on brakes, if you want

big brakes... get them, because someone is going to try to talk you out of it

anyway.

Posted by: JPB Oct 19 2006, 04:13 PM

Battle of the penises!!! My dick is big so I'
m keeping my small breaks. :stones:LOL Gonna do the right thing as you have mentioned and hope for the best. If they wind up locking, I will get some big meats to hold the road better and be the Biggest Dickust!


Sweet. No desire to do the paint shop thing since two weeks has turned into three months now. At least I'm wearing them out going 1-2X per week to check on the progress.LOL

:beer1:Must remove Pvalve at all cost.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 19 2006, 04:23 PM

Eric has consistently made sense in this thread.
Seperate what you need vs what you want & spend accordingly.

Posted by: TonyAKAVW Oct 19 2006, 04:43 PM

I reccomend installing Subaru brakes. :

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 19 2006, 04:56 PM

Well sence we are there you can get Yugo brakes cheap...

Posted by: JPB Oct 19 2006, 04:56 PM

Posted by: Crazyhippy Oct 20 2006, 10:58 AM

RS, WRX, or STI???

Brakes (w/o ABS) should be able to lock the tires up. If they are not capable of doing so, they are not strong enough.

The fastest way to stop (besides hitting a mac truck head on) is to be on the verge of lock-up (known as threshold braking) w/out actually locking up any tires.

I'm not a fan of the BMW caliper "upgrade." the stock brakes are capable (when in good shape) of locking up the tires (assuming no super wide slicks...) and have enough problem dealing w/ the heat generated. BMW calipers transfer slightly more braking to the front tires, adding to their heat load, and warping rotors even faster.

I'm a fan of more brakes then your car will need. I'd rather know my car will stop like it is supposed to every time, and not have to sit there and wonder if the rotors, pads or fluid have overheated and wont work now (Been there, 2 turns after the cheapo tires turned to greased dog doodie )

The 914RS's brakes are about perfect as far as i'm concerned. Hell the whole car is (assuming i can swap in some Boost inspired HP )

BJH

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 20 2006, 11:20 AM

it is B R A K E not BREAK

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 20 2006, 11:31 AM

The part about stock brakes good on a track car up to ~140 mph is not true, at least in the Northeast at NHIS, Watkins Glen, Limerock, Pocono, Mt. Tremblant. You can include Road America and Sebring too.

I was switching out calipers every other track event to rebuild, always fresh fluid, lots of cooling, SS lines, etc. At those speeds, they simply develop too much heat and the pads don't have enough surface area.

I could kill Raybestos ST-42 pads in less than a day. The brakes would start to fade after about 15-18 minutes of tough track driving.

To give you an idea of the heat generated on a stock body 914 running 205-55 Kumhos, I would get fender temps of over 180 degrees, wheel (rim) temps of over 400. Tire temps of over 230. I didn't have anything to measure the heat in the calipers, but I would get pad faid, which was somewhere over 1300*.

On stock 4 rotors that I slotted, they would actually warp radially. I'll dig up some pictures to post tonight.

IMHO, when a 914 gets over about 130 mph constistently, it needs some break work done that is beyond what the stock system can offer.

Posted by: brant Oct 20 2006, 12:27 PM

I should probably just let this thread die...
but some times I've noticed that people significantly over brake.
in the Stock-ish 2.0/4 classes, a person Would RARELY need to brake at all.
and those cars are able to hit 120

sometimes the pro's use less brakes than an amateur
I'm not calling you names either pro or amateur, but most of the time as an instructor I have noticed that the different driving styles and braking styles can significantly alter a person's perspective in regard to their brakes ability to cope.

perhaps you could use the cars abilty to drift to scrub speed ... or some other technique to reduce the load upon your brakes?

a locked diff will teach you this technique VERY well.
you'll end up going in faster and using your brakes much less.

Matt,
what car
what motor
what top speed are you working with?
maybe a vented, M/S/A caliper and rotor will be necessary

It sounds like your speaking with experience and know what you need. But don't overlook trying to change a driving technique or style to accomodate a car/track/tire/day.... its a great way to learn.

brant

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 20 2006, 01:22 PM

Brant,

I definatly agree that many beginners overbrake, but that wasn't my problem.

I didn't have problems with a hot 2 liter. Nothing ever until I put in a 2270 and started passing everything up to a 911 C2. To give you an idea, I'm an instructor and running in the top group with every group I drive with. I can pass Carreras, 951s, SC are not a challenge....corner with 911 with wide body kits.....hitting about 138ish at the back straight at the Glen.

The car is a stock fendered 72. 205 width tires. Hot 2270 motor. Koni shocks, 21 mm t-bars, 19mm front sway bar, 180 lb springs, bushings etc. I've run 1.01s at Limerock, sub 2:15 at the Glen. You can ask anyone that has ridden with me about being able to keep momentum.

What people constantly leave out is the pad area. I was able to get the stock brakes to work and just about last a whole session, but I would wear them out in less than 8 sessions.

I went with vented fronts and vented SC rears. Wilwoods all around. I was able to drop a 2-3 seconds a lap at NHIS by being able to break later and more consistent.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 20 2006, 01:39 PM

And Matt is not a small person

I could get a 400hp stock braked 914 to stop from 150mph twice before I had NO brakes..LOL NO stop what so ever..

The Boxster Spec group just went round and round with this subject. I argued for stock brakes.. the big money guy's wanted BIG brakes. I told them I use the brakes 2 times at Willow Springs..LOL

I have started using them more to "settle" the car prior to braking in a rough area of the track. It weighs 2850 with me in it and has 170 RWHP. It doesnt need bigger brakes. I'm still on the same pads we installed a almost a year ago after 8-10 track events and 8-10 AutoX's with multiple drivers.

Matt has a point.


B

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Oct 20 2006, 01:49 PM

Brad thanks for chiming in. I know you have a lot of experience racing 914s and have probably been down this road once before.

Wait a minute! Are you calling me fat?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 20 2006, 01:52 PM

I agree. I think John Rogers should weigh in. It seems that brake fade is eliminated when you go with a set of Mike Mueller's hubs and vented rotors.

(little neener for Bradhole pickup your phone!)

AGAIN, this is only on a road course under race conditions with a car that is now traveling over 130 mph!! (just want people to keep it in perspective)

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 20 2006, 01:54 PM

He called you fat... for sure.

Posted by: trekkor Oct 20 2006, 02:35 PM

How did I miss this one?

I have ALL stock rebuilt calipers, M/C, prop valve, SS lines, Porterfield R-4's, and Motul.
( a fully functioning system )

I go through the front pads 2x faster than the rears.
The fronts are lasting me about 8 track days ( 20 hours ).

They cost about $100 per axle.

My set-up is perfect for me. They do not fade and I have never felt under braked. My max speeds are between 110-120 mph.

I run fresh air ducted to the fronts. No dust shields.
After a 30 minute session the rotors are too hot to measure, 500+, but the calipers are under 275. They don't fade.

On the street, my set-up would be considered over-kill.


KT

Posted by: JPB Oct 20 2006, 05:40 PM

Crap, I just got a break on my brakes! Sorry for the miss spelling since then Eng language is my second and still working on it.LOL

It sounds like we have many here form the Purist Minimalists who agree that less is more and big breaks are a big waste of time and extra weight? I am impressed.

Less is more!! And that damn Pvalve must go!!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 20 2006, 05:49 PM

Eric,

Call me in 10min (4:55pm) if you see this. I'm leaving work now to get on a plane for SJ.

My point with Matt's example: There are *some* instances where more brake will end up saving you money/time in the long run. You have to decide *why* you need something larger than stock. I know a LOT of fast people on stock brakes. Could they be faster on bigger brakes?? I doubt it. They only touch them on rare occasions.

Ask the EP and FP guys in SCCA 914's. Last time I checked.. they are still on stock caliper/rotors and most of them would drive circles around us.

You want your brakes to work consistantly? Get the heat out.


B

Posted by: Crazyhippy Oct 20 2006, 05:52 PM

If you remove the P-valve, do NOT follow me, i dont want you backing into me the 1st time you get on the brakes hard...

Th p-valve removal works well w/ 911 fronts. beyond that, an adjustable is needed (and i recomend not having it in your reach, the stock location is great) and if you find yourself running the adjustable wide open, then a t-can be installed in it's place.

BJH

Posted by: JPB Oct 20 2006, 05:56 PM

Awsome!!

I'm in with the big boys. Yes......ahhhhh, serenity......

Posted by: xitspd Oct 20 2006, 07:14 PM

BRAKES! I agree with Joe. I COVET YOUR FRONT BRAKES JOE! Pic # 1 Jeff Hayes the best 914 pilot I have ever known. Pic is 4 or 5 years old. (3.8, 8 Piston brakes) Pic # 2 One of my boss's collection GT40. Jeff's car had much more stopping power. Power in the GT40 is unreal! I have driven both. Pic # 3 My WRX with 18 inch wheels from Japan and a Cool Rotors braking system. Some how the car has found it's way to my Son-in-Law's garage! Jeff Hayes is the Founder of Cool Rotors.

Dan


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Posted by: scotty b Oct 20 2006, 07:45 PM

[quote name='Matt Romanowski' date='Oct 20 2006, 11:22 AM' post='798873']
Brant,

I definatly agree that many beginners overbrake, but that wasn't my problem.

It's DEFINITELY not DEFINATLY ! How'd you make it so big AA?

Posted by: Sammy Oct 20 2006, 08:10 PM

Putting huge brakes on a 914 that rarely sees more than 120 mph makes about as much sense as putting a huge rear wing on it

Sorry, couldn't resist.
The last two 914s i had I put the 320 calipers up front and a Tee instead of a prop VALVE. Worked just fine, but didn't lower my lap times. Not using the brakes would have done that. BTW, they both had significanty more HP than stock.
I had 205 victoracers on it, if i had more tires I might have gone with more brakes but I could lock up the 205s at will. I could find no logical reason to spend big $$$ on bigger brakes I could not fully use, unless I was trying to impress someone. If I did need more brakes I would have probably gone to more agressive pads first.
Note: I recommend you do not remove the prop valve unless you increase your front brake capacity significantly.
Stopping in a straight line aint the point, it's all about stopping in a panic situation in a corner, possibly in the rain. With no prop valve on a stock system you are likely to see where you've been, not where you're going.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 20 2006, 08:53 PM

Wow, go on travel for a couple days and look what I missed!

One thing I think needs to be framed here... A small increase in speed can result in a much greater load on brakes, no it's not linear. Brakes turn the kinteic energy of the car into thermal energy by friction generated at the pad/disk interface. Kinetic energy, Ke=1/2 mv^2. That's the -square- of the velocity. Double your speed and you -quadruple- the energy you need to dissapate in the brakes. So a car with stock brakes that can go all day on the track topping out at 120 mph, may very well exceed their capabilities at 140 mph. That makes a roughly 15 % increase in top speed yielding over a 27 % increase in energy. A little bit goes a long way...

That having been said, I've only had problem with my brakes at the track was when they weren't in top shape (old fluid, wrong pads, insufficient cooling). But I run a stock 2.0L, not a hopped up 3.6 monster.

-Josh2

Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 12:49 AM

[attachmentid=101
220]Dicks are bigger south of the equator.


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Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 12:50 AM

qerwq


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Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 12:50 AM

qrwe


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Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 12:51 AM

qwetr


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Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 12:52 AM

sedtrhy


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Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 12:52 AM

dfgj


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Posted by: Jeroen Oct 21 2006, 05:41 AM

wow Howard, that's a sweet setup!
which pedal cluster is that?
and how's your legroom?

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 06:33 AM

Howser wowser's pedal assembly make me wanna...........GET ME SOMA DEM!!! You Australian's has gots it goin on.

Me wants, me likes.

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 06:36 AM

Ahhh nice pics and ahhhh nice reality check. 914's are on jack stands for repairs only inversly, GT40's are on role backs for forward movement.LOL

Ford, where making cars is still a challenge.

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 06:49 AM

Sorry, couldn't resist.
The last two 914s i had I put the 320 calipers up front and a Tee instead of a prop VALVE. Worked just fine, but didn't lower my lap times. Stopping in a straight line aint the point, it's all about stopping in a panic situation in a corner, possibly in the rain. With no prop valve on a stock system you are likely to see where you've been, not where you're going.
[/quote]

So Sammy, did you mean removing the Pvalve on the car if I use some rotor eating pads like Raysbestosiseses on the front rotors? I will certainly give it the old test down my road for safety in a panic situation though. And since noone has mentioned it, I don't think, yes my rear pads are vented correctly.

Less is more and stepin wit da big boas.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 21 2006, 09:38 AM

Yeah, How tall are you?

I like the slave on the clutch, any problems?

All that cool stuff on your teener and you can't get the steering wheel on the

correct side of the car. Peace Mate.

Posted by: Mountain914 Oct 21 2006, 10:50 AM

Yeah baby, let's show them wilwood's !!
(I also have 23mm MC, 17" wheels, yada yada yada)

Posted by: Sammy Oct 21 2006, 11:07 AM

On street cars, the front brakes are designed to have significanty more stopping power than the rears in the name of safety. That's part of the reason for the proportioning valve. It limits the pressure to the rear brakes making the car safer in a panic stop in a corner, on slippery pavement, etc.

On an otherwise stock system removing the valve will make the rears more aggressive which will make them tend to lock earlier. That increases the chances of the back coming around. You better be really good at trail braking and rotating the car into the apex.

Removing the prop valve will actually improve your stopping distance in a straight line on dry pavement yada yada but not in a corner or on wet pavement. As the rears start to lock you will have to let up on the brakes to modulate them. If you are really quick you can do it, but you are still using less brakes than if the rears didn't lock.

To answer your question, I dunno. I haven't played with those particular pads to know how much difference they make. I know that to maintain the same balance without a prop valve you have to increase the front brakes quite a bit ie 320 calipers.

Posted by: Howard Oct 21 2006, 11:28 AM

:dinosaur smiley:

Pussies, yer all pussies. Brakes are for pussies. Ya can't win a race with yer foot on the brakes. Back when I learned the little I know about racing...

Real men drove fragile cars. Brakes faded, cars overheated, trannies and engines failed a lot easier than they do today. You had to make up for it with driving skill and empathy for your car.

And I walked ten miles to school in the snow. Up hill. Both ways.

Back to your regular scheduled program.

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 11:36 AM

Yes Sammy i have 320s in the front and figured mean pads would make them even more aggressive thus a bit safer.

I'm not a frigin pussy! Please give me some respect and use the clinical "manjina" term since I have a so called brake upgrade.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 21 2006, 11:40 AM

JPB if you put an adjustable valve instead of a "T" you will be able to set the

preasure to the rear brakes to your likeing. I know you are going to go out and

play and you have rain so I would sudjest the adjustable valve. Go out to a large

parking lot in the rain and turn the valve in increments until it handles the way

you want under hard braking and cornering. It will be safer that way IMHO.

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 11:47 AM

Ya, that it the best and smartest way and what I will end up doing.

Coulden't get any heavy opinions on the Pvavlve deal but you can't say I didn't try.

Posted by: brant Oct 21 2006, 11:54 AM

I felt like you got multiple heavy opinions on the T-valve "deal" as you call it...

many people suggested that you keep some type of proportioning valve.
for example.. my post 3 pages back about a true life experience of going off into a ditch backwards at 80mph becuase of braking into a corner with a T

that personal experience involved 911 S front calipers with stock rear 914 calipers (that I had vented). Race pads and race tires on both front and rear. I had a car that used an adjustable P-valve set to full open.
Technically my class rules didn't allow and adjustable valve, so since I had it at full open I decided to replace it with a T. about the 3rd time on a dry track I found the car suddenly going backwards. Can you guess what I did the brakes before the next time I put the car on the track?

your beating a dead horse to try and get a rise out of people
don't know how that thrills you but it apparently does.

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2006, 12:35 PM

Yes you are correct but the replies were all like what you have said and noone posted differently in an enraged fashion which makes for good reading.LOL I read your post and appreciated your good judgement since all your replies, as well as many from others, were right on the money. THNX

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 21 2006, 12:55 PM

And they drive on the wrong side of the car. We put ours on the left

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 21 2006, 01:11 PM

I wonder if it is for the same reason there water spins the wrong way down the drain?

Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 02:06 PM

Its a generic Tilton unit. The brake pedal is in the same position as the stock setup. The clutch throw is much shorter than the cable arrangement, like about 2-3". I can do the setup down the back because the clutch is a 911 type pull clutch with a 911 flywheel, rather than the 901/914 style. With a push style clutch you could use a concentric throw out slave/bearing around the guide tube. The overall setup works really well. Its nice to be able to adjust the bias on the go. The clutch reservoir came off a motorcycle.

I'm 180 cm and have plenty of room. I used to be 6' but I shrank a bit with effect of gravity I think. But i'm no Cartman, all prick and ribs - 70 kg.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 21 2006, 04:56 PM

howard - which willwood calipers are those?

Posted by: pete-stevers Oct 21 2006, 05:19 PM

jp your bmw brakes may fit with spacers
i have a set of 1977 325 brakes on the back of harlot i had to space them but at least i got vented rotors on the back...but i hate parking on hills.....
i bought erics rear calipers set up for vented...to replace.....
plus the tee will put to much pressure on your rear and that my freind is not gud on the road...of course depending on your fronts.....
..........................................................
big brakes are cool.....no matter what they tellyou....
they're like a big "set".....eye catching and fun to play with

Posted by: xitspd Oct 21 2006, 07:16 PM

Very nice! Maybe OT, show us the motor!

Thanks,

Dan

Posted by: Howard R Oct 21 2006, 08:14 PM

Forged billet Superlites 3.5" bolt spacing. The fronts bolt straight on with a 3mm spacer. At the rear you have to cut the mounts off and weld some new ones on. 3.2 Carrera discs on the front and SC on the rear.

Posted by: JPB Oct 22 2006, 07:17 AM

Nice setup and making/welding new mounts is a snap over here.

As for the south of the border thing friend, remember you are always looking up/north at my bull balls.

Big balls a beautifull, according to the babes, but damn they are alot of maintenence.

Posted by: Howard R Oct 22 2006, 03:37 PM

You should appreciate that its only convention that the world is depicted the way it is. It really looks like this:


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Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 22 2006, 03:40 PM

Only in the land of OZ.

Posted by: JPB Oct 22 2006, 05:32 PM

That would put you on top of the world after Antarctica. So why do they say you are from Downunder then? :idea:With them pedals mate, I have no dought on who the man is in these parts!!

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 22 2006, 05:57 PM

According to your map then we are south of the border. Kinda screwed yourself

out of those bragging rights Mate. Still like your clutch setup.

Posted by: VintageExcellence Nov 14 2006, 12:59 PM

996 brakes on my 73 3.2 conversion





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Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 14 2006, 04:08 PM

Nice, I have 996/boxster S as well. Did you fab your own mount, modify the hubs, and what rotors did you use?

I "think" Brad was joking about Cayenne calipers but I "almost" bought a pair at $600. There's no problem fitting them on 18" wheels. Some advantages of "Modern" calipers are they don't usually need a rebuild, have new metal, hardware, and the latest manufacturing processes...

I agree with Joe O's of just trying something no one else has done yet.

Posted by: JPB Nov 14 2006, 07:26 PM

Brad missleading? IMPOSSIBLE! I got a quote for $600 each at Napa and then I thought, I need to be able to role before I need to stop this jack stand biotch.


When racing, one needs to take breaks from the brakes since the brake breaks keep the car racing as opposed to breaking from racing.