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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Recommended 914 Suspension Matrix???
Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2003, 12:15 PM
I'm looking for a table that would have the following proven and or tested setups:
Of course, much more info needs to be added with comments and warnings about teeth rattling out or oversteer/understeer
Posted by: Qarl Nov 7 2003, 12:31 PM
I think the following additional information would be helpful...
Shocks: Koni and Bilstein specs for each category (stock, street, AX, race). i.e., Koni reds, koni sports, bilstein HD, Bilstein, sport, etc. There should be multiple suggestions under each category
Bushing recommendations (i.e., factory rubber, polyurethane, polygraphite, roller bearing, spherical bearing)
Brake caliper and rotor setup recommendations (i.e., steet = stock brakes, race = Carrera brakes, 930 turbo, etc.)
Wheel/tire combos, flared vs. not flared.
You could really make a neat table/matrix that summarizes a lot of the frequently requested info.
Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2003, 12:35 PM
ditto 
Do you think a simple table would be fine or maybe write something in VB (only "programming" I know 
) so that one can input variables and get suggestions or other info ???
BTW,
glad to hear that Hunter is home 
I got those seals, thanks, very professional !!!!
Posted by: fiid Nov 7 2003, 12:39 PM
we need a brake matrix too.
23mm fronts for a track car I think. That's what I have.
Mueller bearings for everything over 20mm or 140lbs if you're not interested in headaches or spinal compression on the street.
Just my opinions. I have never driven on my new suspension.
Fiid.
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 7 2003, 12:46 PM
If you're looking for input, I'd say that your rear spring rates are too low. Anti-roll bars (& sizes of same) need
to be in the mix.
The object (IMO) should geared towards "neutral" handling. I think it's a worthwhile endevor. It'll also give us sumthin' to argue about 
I have "tested" a few combos.
Posted by: Jeroen Nov 7 2003, 12:50 PM
Maybe you should add a swaybar row to the table
Adding a front swaybar usually needs heavier rear springs
23mm t-bars + 200-250# rear springs for a race setup
cheers,
Jeroen
Posted by: brant Nov 7 2003, 12:54 PM
I agree with JP regarding the rear rates... but it depends up high speed versus low speed circuts, versus street....
I used to run 250lbs with my 22 front torsions as an example.
It all comes down to the tire and application, so having a matrix all cars is like trying to guess the perfect set up without a tire guage.
brant
Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2003, 01:13 PM
just to let everyone know......my table is just thown together, do not use the info inside !!!!!!!
Fiid, your suspension will be softer (it'll work) with the needle bearings, in some cases you can lower your spring rates
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 7 2003, 01:18 PM
Brant is right bout the tire thingy.
You should assume the same size tires, F & R.....let the HP wonks fend for themselves
Those with 6's have a bit more weight to deal with, but it shouldn't skew things too badly.
A good (neutral) combo for mixed use:
Adjustable 19 mm AR bar
stock front T-bars
140 lb progressive rears
Posted by: Qarl Nov 7 2003, 01:20 PM
Mueller... sloppy work as usual. Get with the program.
I surmise that the end result of this table is that needle bearings will be in every cell of this table????
I do see, however, that this table could raise a lot of controversy. Everyone has their own opinion and there ARE many factors to consider.
Perhaps, multilple suggestions or ranges of suggestions for each category may be appropriate.
Explanations, notes, comments, etc. would also be helpful.
For example.. street 914.. rear spring values could be 100# to 140# and maybe explain what would influence one rate vs. the other.
I recall seeing some torsion bar vs. spring tables on a thread 6 months or so ago.
mmmm.... Springs... 
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 7 2003, 01:38 PM
I do see, however, that this table could raise a lot of controversy. Everyone has their own opinion and there ARE many factors to consider.
mmmm.... Springs...
There's nothing wrong with healthy debate. Problems arise when someone can't keep his (or her) ego in check.....that's never happened here, right?
Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2003, 01:43 PM
This doesnt work. You have to speak to the invidual and determine their demeanor. You can't just slap springs/torsion bars under a car. What works for one person may not work for another. Some people have BALLS and some dont. The ones with BALLS can stand a stiffer ride. The guy with small balls will want a cushy/feel/good ride.
Its also a progression thing. Start with one setup and move to the next as you get faster. I speak to people in depth to understand where they are in their AutoX/Road racing abilities before deciding on a combo for THEM. Not some "generic" this worked for so-and-so so it should work for you.
I honestly think there are too many variables for a table of any sort.
B
Posted by: Qarl Nov 7 2003, 01:56 PM
Again another reason for suggesting ranges... maybe you could have a "balls" scale... (i.e., Street Springs- 100 lbs gets one nutsack, 140 lbs gets two nutsack, 175 lbs gets three nut sacks... and so forth.. Ha ha!
Or maybe instead of nutsacks you could have a teeth shattering scale. (i.e., Nice teeth, shattered teeth, and bleeding gums!)
Again, as Brad says, it IS variable and a matter of taste, driving style, etc.
I think what Mike would like to get done is to have some sort of "basic starting point table"
Hang on a second.. there is also some useful information in the Smart Racing catalog. Good info here... http://www.smartracingproducts.com/installation.htm
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 7 2003, 02:00 PM
I disagree, Brad.
Many folks don't want to race or AX (the fools ).
I do agree with the "progression " thingy for those of us with "balls"...or what's left of them after running stiff suspensions.....and getting old Gives meaning to the term "numb nuts"....but I digress.
A guy can thrash around trying this or that, but a baseline set up would help many folks.
Posted by: mike_the_man Nov 7 2003, 02:01 PM
Wouldn't people with bigger balls want a cushier ride, so they don't bounce around as much? That could hurt!
I think that you would need some way to quantify the result of each setup. Something like this setup allows you to pull this many lateral G's, or this setup is better for autocross, etc. Seems like there would be a whole lot of variables to take in to account, but a general guide could be useful.
Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2003, 02:03 PM
IF you have a 911 !!!!!
Some of it still applies to our 914's, but I'd like a BTDT for our cars, maybe for those that have suspension setups that work for them, we could have a few pages of specs (with all the numbers or only some numbers if it's a secret or gaurded setup)
Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2003, 02:11 PM
I want to help you... but I also want you to work on drawings and not some matrix.
Every person is different. Every track is different. Every tire is different. Some cars have cages..some have nothing. Some people have progressive rate springs, some have regular springs. Some people have rear bars, some people dont. Some people have 6 inch wide rims, some have 5.5, some have 7...8...9...10. Some people run Hoosiers, some people run Kuhmos.
Everything listed above (short list) is a variable that doesnt even include the driver.
I for one dont beleive in the single setup and run it theory. We adjust for every track.
B
Posted by: GWN7 Nov 7 2003, 02:12 PM
I like the idea of a matrix. It would give persons who have no experence (such as my self) an idea where to start when/if they want to do such upgrades.
It would also show what options are available (different manufactures ect).
Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 7 2003, 02:14 PM
A table showing the options is good. A table telling you want to run is not good.
B
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 7 2003, 02:54 PM
Ok, here is my experience.
Stock set-up....wiennie tires at both ends(195 X 60s)
no AR bar. oversteer....in large quanities.....rode gud, tho.
Adjustable front bar (set soft), stock T-Bars, 140 lb rear springs. 205 X 50s both ends, HP infusion (140 hp)....not bad. Good street set-up, decent for AX....but off the pace.
Add 60-80 hp to above.....uncontrollable oversteer, power induced, of course.
Add 205 & 225 Rspec tires....Ah, much better.....mid pack at AX. Stock alignment specs. Neutral handling.
My present set up is a "bleeding gums" jobbie. Not as stiff as it could be, but one of Brads "track vairable" thingys pops up. On the pace, tho.
Posted by: TimT Nov 7 2003, 04:45 PM
I started this season on 650# and 600# springs
now I run on a cushy 450# 350# setup
I have my suspension almost dialed in butt i still need bigger balls
Posted by: redshift Nov 7 2003, 05:14 PM
Cool! I tried to reply to this message... POW! And when windows rebooted, my VFAT was missing. That sucks man!
Anyhow, this 'matrix' you guys are talking about would serve everyone better if it wasn't a matrix, but a database of items, that have suggested items attached, or linked.
I think, I think someone is ANAL RETENTIVE...
MUELLER.... MUELLER..... MUELLER... (ben stein voice)
Wanna sway bar? ASK HERE. SPRINGS? ASK!
It's not like people aren't gonna coming running back here... from "The Matrix" with questions ABOUT THE MATRIX.. and "WHAT SWAY BARS GO WITH THE 300# SPRINGS IN THE MATRIX?"
Fuck the matrix. 
M
Posted by: Mueller Nov 7 2003, 05:20 PM
Tim,
here you go:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2962599030&category=1467
Porsche content within the Matrix?? I heard the latest one has a 911 in it, I have not seen it to confirm or deny this rumor
Posted by: redshift Nov 7 2003, 05:23 PM
heh
You should dress up like Neo, and fly out here to do my bearings.
M
Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 7 2003, 06:17 PM
Wasn't there a thread last week about torqueing your NUTS???
Tough thing for me is to figure out what I got now. Konis in front some Orange wierd looking shock in back wrapped in rusty springs.
I commute to work on a mountain bike with the fork on soft. big fat tires, and riding shorts so nuts stay put. 
I have a road bike, ride maybe twice a month. feel pretty beat up after. But boy it sure is FAST.
Posted by: URY914 Nov 7 2003, 06:58 PM
Automotion put out a little book in the '80's about setting up a 914. I've got it somewhere.
I know, I know the info is 20 years old, but we could see the format of thier tables. I'll look for it and scan it.
Paul
Posted by: URY914 Nov 7 2003, 07:29 PM
Let me try this...
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: URY914 Nov 7 2003, 07:32 PM
page 2
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: URY914 Nov 7 2003, 07:35 PM
Page three
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Posted by: URY914 Nov 7 2003, 07:35 PM
If Tom Green comes looking for me for this, tell him you don't know me.
Paul
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 8 2003, 04:01 AM
sounds like you got yourself a virus.
stay off those porn sites!!!
Andy
Posted by: Rob Ways Nov 8 2003, 08:18 AM
I agree with Brad that there is no ideal setup. That's why so many changes occur with our cars. Anyone with more than one 914 in their driveway for different uses, can understand why. Mueller's idea is a good one from a standpoint of gathering data points from people who have used each variation (without opinion).
If you focus on one answer for all our cars, you'll argue forever. If you gather the data based on pros / cons, use / application, complimentary upgrades, etc., you can make your own decisions, and potentially understand the concepts behind each choice.
A matirx tree with options will eventually lead an individual to their own applicable choice (ie: cushy stock, performance street, autocross, time trial, etc). It's probably more work than what I think Mueller was suggesting, but this kind of thing can potentially help people make better decisions when they are in the the "plan it / build it" mode.
Posted by: redshift Nov 8 2003, 12:33 PM
sounds like you got yourself a virus.
stay off those porn sites!!!
Andy
No, it's something about Windows 98 since they changed the way the busmastering works.
It's no longer stable on new installs, on drives larger than 20-30Gb. Intel rocks, MS idiots suck.
Here are links to my favorite porn sites:
http://www.bielstein.com/BF-Sitze/NURBURGRING/nurburgring.html
http://www.vintageseats.com/images/rsSeatProfile.jpg
http://www.wheelenhancement.com
http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/SaleSearch?sosortorder=2&sokeywordredirect=1&ht=1&sosortproperty=3&satitle=914&from=R8
http://www.paragon-products.com/
I have wood!
M
Posted by: Howard R Nov 8 2003, 01:05 PM
I agree with Mueller and JP. I can't see any problem making the information available. I know what works for mine and it took me a while to work it out, mainly because there are 2 (only) dudes in 914s in the whole country doing the same thing as me and they are running a little stiffer setup. If you dont want to let someone know your secrets you don't; but if you do want to share, why not.
How
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