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Posted by: J P Stein Mar 6 2003, 03:19 PM

Hey, we went out in the rain today.
Fortunately the alignment chop is only a half mile away.

Here's what we gots:

Camber R/F -1.99 L/F -1.99
R/R -2.3 L/R -2.25

Caster R/F 5.08 L/F 5.31

1/16 toe in at both ends.

Pulled another 3mm shim from each side in the rear.
I"d like to get more caster, but I'd have to do some more grinding around the strut mounts. Maybe next winter.

A short drive shows the car to be VERY responsive.
The ride is....er....firm....but not as bad as I thought it would be. Vracers really suck in the wet.

Now if the weather would cooperate, we can go play Sunday. It ain't lookin' good, tho.

Posted by: ChrisReale Mar 6 2003, 03:32 PM

I thgought you were shooting for 5 degrees of neg camber :finger2:
Does anybody know how those home camber gauges you can buy work? The one Im thinking about at paragon prod. is like $200. Are they worth it? I thought i saw one in the back of Grassrotts that did both camber toe...etc...

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 6 2003, 05:21 PM

Those things are a digital level with a fixture to hook onto your wheel. You may be able to make the same thing for less; I saw a digital level (or digital angle-finder) for about $80 at my local Home Debit.

Caster is usually not measured directly, just inferred from the camber change you get when turning the steering wheel the same number of turns in each direction.

Toe is not measured this way. You have to find or make some sort of center-of-car reference line and then measure how far the front and rear edges of the tire are from this line. You can do this by measurring out a given distance from the centerline, setting up jack-stands with strings tied to them, and then measuring the distance from the string to the tire or wheel lip.

There's a Pelican tech article that describes one method of checking camber/caster/toe. There are others available on line as well.

--DD

Posted by: Jeroen Mar 6 2003, 06:25 PM

Hey JP,

Why in heavens name did you go for toe-in on the fronts
I'd gone for zero toe at least...

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 6 2003, 09:29 PM

Cause I screwed up (thanx for asking).
I forgot what Tony told me for the front.
So we decided on 1/16 in.

Posted by: campbellcj Mar 6 2003, 10:03 PM

Congrats on getting 'er back together JP.

I think some autox cars actually run a small amount of toe-out in the front. It supposedly helps turn-in; although in street and big-track use it would lead to a pretty twitchy (sketchy) feeling front end. I'm running zero toe up front (or close to zero) and a tiny bit of rear toe-in.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 6 2003, 10:24 PM

It's not really twitchy, you just have to keep your mind on driving it the whole time you're behind the wheel. Look down to fiddle with the radio, and you may find yourself in the next lane...

Toe-out in the rear makes a car quite twitchy!!

--DD

Posted by: Jeroen Mar 7 2003, 05:54 AM

Ok, that's better... You had me worried for a minute there that you did that on purpose

On my 911 (yeah, I know, different cookie) I've got zero toe front and rear
Turn in is great with the zero toe front. On not too smooth roads it needs your attention over 120mph, but nothing to get nervous about.
I hadn't really looked into the toe settings for the rear, so I decided to go zero there as well as a starting/reference point.
I really like it. It makes the car feel very neutral on the track (as far as a 911 can ever be neutral) and both under and oversteer are easily found/corrected.
(nothing is more fun that 4 wheel slides )

For an AX-only-car you might even wanna try a little toe-out

cheers,

Jeroen
ps I can't believe I actually used that stoopid banana

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 7 2003, 02:03 PM

Jeroen:

Without your mentoring I wouldn't ever have gotten my car running again, much less turn it into an AX killermobile. It would prolly be spread all over the shop while I gathered a bunch of 'spensive parts.

Now that's on the ground and running, ya gots any driving tips? I'll be going out Sunday (the weather forecast looks decent). I will, of course, report back on my results so's you can .....er...do a critique.

Your loyal student,
Rickey Racer

Posted by: Jeroen Mar 7 2003, 08:35 PM

Hey JP,

I'm not gonna give you any driving tips :finger2:

I'm gonna be somewhat more humble the next 2 weeks because Brad's taking me to an AX, so I'll have to put my money where my mouth is there

I'm no longer on a save distance

If I do good at the AX I'll rub it in all of your faces
If I do bad, well... I'll get into lurking mode for a while after a quite retreat to the Netherlands

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Jeroen Mar 7 2003, 08:40 PM

BTW, since it looks like you made it to your scedule, I've decided to take up the challenge...

My car will be ready to do some parade laps at the next Classic LeMans (that's september 2004)

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Sammy Mar 7 2003, 09:12 PM

onced you get a good alignment, toe changes are easy. You need a real good baseline (you gots already) then all you have to do is to mark your tie rod thingies real good and make very small, even changes. If you are anal enough you will keep close enough records so that you can always go back.
I figure about 1/16 of a turn at a time should be good for testing.

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 8 2003, 02:36 AM

Jeroen:
AX is kinda like sex. I knew I wuz gonna like it before I tried it.

Just relax (hah!)and let it happen. You'll love it and prolly want to start a AX movement in the Hinderla....er...Netherlands.

Posted by: Jeroen Mar 8 2003, 06:48 AM

Hey JP,

It's not that I never AX-ed before
It's just that I dunno how fast you guys out there are... so I'm just gonna keep my big mouth shut 'till I find out

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Sammy Mar 8 2003, 05:44 PM

I gots my first of the year AX/TT next sunday. I'm really lookin forward to it, this is the first time i've run since I got the new yokos and since I read all them racin' books. I shud be about 20 seconds per lap faster now

here's a pic of my new nummers:

Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 8 2003, 05:51 PM

about how much does it cost to have your whole car aligned front and rear? and should you go to a foreign only place to have it done? or would your local tire store be able to do it?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 8 2003, 06:11 PM

The local tire store should be able to set the front alignment. They'll set it to stock specs if they can find them, or to whatever you tell them to if you know what you want.

The rears are a bit different. To set the rear camber, you need special shims. Many places don't have these. Without them, you can put more negative camber in, but you cannot take negative camber out. The way the toe is changed is kind of non-standard as well; the bolts that hold the outer trailing arm mount onto the chassis are loosened and the wheel is pulled out or shoved in, then the bolts are tightened again. Many shops won't have a clue how to do anything to the rear wheels of a 914.

Rusted bolts really suck. Really really. It's a good idea to hit the bolts with a good penetrating oil, like Aero Kroyl or PB Blaster. WD-40 is not a penetrating oil... If the plastic caps are gone from the top side of the bolt holes, put a lot of the penetrating oil in there as well. (And when you get the car back, cover those holes!)

--DD

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 8 2003, 06:31 PM

The guy that does mine is a suspension/brakes only guy. Seldom sees a 914 and hates em'....but I got outta there for 90 bucks.....now if I can just talk him into getting some scales....... He's got shims, I got shims, we all got shims.... and no rusty bolts.

Make sure your rear springs aren't bagged out before you take it in. Rear ride height has a dramatic effect on camber....humm, front too.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 9 2003, 01:27 PM

Bagged out? i am ready to install my rear springs and struts soon....should i have the car realigned in the rear only....because i am saving for new front struts, a stock swaybar off my parts car, and new torsion bars up front...should i have it all done at once or, should i install the rears and have them aligned, then do the fronts and have it alligned?

TIA

Posted by: boxstr Mar 9 2003, 02:01 PM

First thing you need to find is a shop that can do four wheel alignment and I think they should be somewhat familiar weith the Porsche and the 914. If not, adios. Ask someone in the area who they use.
I four wheel aligned the yellow car and it was like it was on rails.
Wait and align the front and back together.
CCLinLOO