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Posted by: FEF Nov 11 2003, 03:08 PM

So, I'm looking at the rear trunk, and I have to admit that It's easy for me to see it gone.

I have a few questions to ask, though.

I'm sure bracing is required. Does someone offer a kit, or have all of you made your own? If no one offers a bracing kit, it looks like I could bracet it up, snip out the trunk, then clean up the edges.

Any hints?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: seanery Nov 11 2003, 03:14 PM

there was a pic recently of a black -6 without a rear trunk. It should show you what you'll need to do.
I can't remember the thread, however.

Posted by: MJHanna Nov 11 2003, 03:14 PM

make your own


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Posted by: seanery Nov 11 2003, 03:15 PM

Here it is. It was in the lurkers thread

Posted by: MJHanna Nov 11 2003, 03:17 PM

only two I have at work


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Posted by: FEF Nov 11 2003, 03:28 PM

Yup, the black with the red accents was one that tipped me over. I must admit, it looks too sweet not to continue.

It clearly shows the spreader at the shocks, but there's not a good shot of the rear section.

The good news is that all this is well within my ability.

In your experiance, is it better to remove the metal then brace, or brace then remove the extra metal? I've see situations where one way is better then the other. I'd hate to loose allignment and such.

Posted by: d914 Nov 11 2003, 03:53 PM

I'll take a better shot

Posted by: stevend Nov 11 2003, 04:21 PM

the trunk is nice and want to do this to my 914!

Posted by: stevend Nov 11 2003, 04:25 PM

D914 is my father the picture will be on shortly.

Posted by: Jeroen Nov 11 2003, 04:34 PM

Check http://www.rennware.com/914/body02.php for some more ideas

What I don't like about the black car pictured above is that the bracing looks to run back to the center of the dog-bone. Space them out so they end up above the tranny mounting points

More important, they didn't cut out the last bit of the old firewall at the shock towers
You should, cause that gives you the opportunity to decently weld the shock towers to the frame-rails... (you'll be amazed when you see the crappy connection)

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2003, 04:34 PM

the easiest way is to just cut out the sheetmetal part of the trunk floor and leave in the stock brace for the tranny mounts as well as the wall between the shock towers.
gives you a lot better access to tranny etc. without having to weld in alotta bracing ...

Andy

Posted by: d914 Nov 11 2003, 04:46 PM

here is the whole thing. I do like the setup in the link, but the bracing came first, then the trunk
floor and then the fire wall. I am looking to see where else we could brace without going nuts...


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Posted by: stevend Nov 11 2003, 04:47 PM

i agree but with the tools we have nd how often we work on it that was the best we cold do.

Posted by: FEF Nov 11 2003, 05:35 PM

Thanks a bunch. This helps out a lot.

Maybe we should put this in the classic threads section. It looks like a keeper to me.

Thanks again.

Posted by: Jeroen Nov 11 2003, 07:46 PM

You can run braces from the tranny mount pickups (under the dogbone) to the inner suspension pickups (the ears) and from the ears to the bulkhead

'nuther you could consider... from the center of the shocktower brace to the inner susp.ears

That should tie everything together nicely

check www.vehiclecraft.com under customer cars. There's some cool stuff there as well

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 07:50 PM

Here are some shots from an ex-IMSA GTU car, ex-Ginther


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Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 07:50 PM

nutter


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Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 07:51 PM

and yet another


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Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 07:51 PM

sifvaoinzl


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Posted by: r_towle Nov 11 2003, 07:58 PM

THATS IT

Thats what I was talking about a long time ago with Tony and brad regarding a cage...

It has been done, under the window, trussing the tube down to the suspension console....

Cool

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 11 2003, 08:00 PM

Did someone suggest going nuts?


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Posted by: FEF Nov 11 2003, 08:08 PM

Oh ya...

This thread is a keeper.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 11 2003, 08:16 PM

Chris, thats the correct rear end, though smaller tubing would still work from the shock mount to the rear....

Now were talking, then the whole rear end could be flip up fiberglass.
Thinking center seat now hmmmm

Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 11 2003, 08:19 PM

We could try things the way Colin Chapman used to with his Lotus designs - keep removing things or making them smaller until something breaks.

Posted by: seanery Nov 11 2003, 08:21 PM

Chris is that car PCA legal??

Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 08:26 PM

This car is a tube/semi-tube frame carbon/kevlar/glass 956 powered 914 monster. PCA classes it as GTP. " GT Prototype"

I dont have any pics of it with the rear bodywork of though


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Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 08:27 PM

dfhds


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Posted by: TimT Nov 11 2003, 08:27 PM

dmtlsd


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Posted by: r_towle Nov 11 2003, 08:31 PM

This is where I am heading Chris...

A central cage wide enough for me, hang the front and rear suspension off of that.
then hang the body work off with itty bitty little light pieces of balsa wood and duct tape.

Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 11 2003, 09:47 PM

Nope, the owner wants to run at PHA (Pennsylvania Hillclimb Association) events.

Posted by: Jeroen Nov 11 2003, 09:56 PM

Yes, it is possible... but why would you?
Tying it to the top of the main hoop will add strength/stiffness because of better triangulation
It's also easier to build a brace going through a lexan rear window than through the firewall

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: URY914 Nov 11 2003, 09:57 PM

Heres mine


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Posted by: URY914 Nov 11 2003, 09:58 PM

qqq


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Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 11 2003, 09:58 PM

There's a 956 engined 914 out of NYC that I first saw back in'85. It's owned and piloted by Nick Ventura. Definitely as fast as any 935. Saw it crash at LRP a few years ago when he put a wheel off at the downhill exit. Nick was unconscious for a few minutes. Wish I had some pics of it, as its one sick 914. Looks a bit like the one Tim T posted.

Posted by: campbellcj Nov 11 2003, 11:18 PM

Here is Jim Patrick's HSR West 2.0 car - I assume the lower tray is easily removable and helps smooth the airflow underneath?

Posted by: campbellcj Nov 11 2003, 11:22 PM

I might add this to my "project list" for next year. Unfortunately I don't know how to weld, but maybe I will take it up in my spare time, LOL.


Is there any significant weight savings here, or is the main point for ease of maintenance access? It seems like it might be detrimental aero-wise.

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2003, 11:38 PM

yes.
if you don't want to cut the firewall like that, you can also "sandwich" a plate on each side and weld the tube onto that. gives you the same strength without the hole around it.
check with local club rules tho, might be illegal where you run ...

Andy

Posted by: Jeroen Nov 12 2003, 07:30 AM

It's totally beyond me why they left the firewall in place...
That undertray is nice though
I was thinking of something similar with a nice GT1 style diffuser

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: r_towle Nov 12 2003, 08:39 AM

Chris,
I am leaning towards a complete tube frame.
I would hang the lightens "tub" off of it to comply with local rules....basically save the front and rear firewalls and the floor and I comply.

I would really like to hear thoughts on how to attach the rear trailing arms to a tube frame, or would we go with something completely different???
I figured out the front, coil over, loose the a-arms...still legal from what I can tell.

I like the looks of that 914 based race car above with only the front end showing....more pics of that would be great, thats the direction I am heading.....not straight there though...
I am thinking of a custom one piece 908 spyder style body.

So, there will be no upper cage, just a roll bar over the drivers head, with the structure on each side of the driver.

this is a climb in car, so the side structure can be the full height of the car, done out of tubing.
Think clean slate while running the cage right through the 914 tub.
Rich

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 12 2003, 11:02 AM

I am already in the process of designing a suspension console that combines the inner and outer pickups into one fabricated assembly. It will retain the stock attachment method for the trailing arm so my Delrin bushings will work, or the needle bearings for that matter. The method of camber/toe adjustment will remain as stock, preferably with my HD outer bracket. It will be possible to cut the chassis and weld this in at any desired elevation. I will be doing mine and another car at 3" above stock most likely. It will also be possible to mount this to a tube structure instead of the 914 chassis.
The difficult part will be aligning it properly so the rear wheels are in the correct position, but I have that figured out as well. I am thinking of offering a fixture to rent if anyone is ambitious enough to DIY, where the required deposit will be equal to the replacement cost. The first 2 prototypes should be done around Christmas this year if all goes well.

Posted by: TimT Nov 12 2003, 02:54 PM

Chris, those last pics I posted are of Nick V's 914. I took those at an event at Watkins Glen this past summer.

BTW Im interested in your suspension console idea

Posted by: synthesisdv Nov 12 2003, 03:02 PM

This is alan alesi's car. He doubled up the sheetmetal crossbar in the rear (see arrow) by cutting the part from a donor car and welding it to his chassis. Makes good sense since the cage tubing gets welded to it.

Even with all this, his car failed at the firewall. He did repair it OK. Also, his car has a crazy 2.5L motor. At least 280hp.

dr


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Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:10 PM

Foley,

We need to chat about a new 914 control arm that adjusts camber/caster at the wheel. I have some already made.. I just need them duped. The jigs are buried in Texas and I wont have access them for another 6 months or so...

Here you go.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:11 PM

911 SC rear bearing carriers for fabbed 914 rear control arm:

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:14 PM

And here something else we should work on..


B

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 12 2003, 03:17 PM

Brad, how will they adjust at the wheel? Do they work on an ecentric(sp)? Shims?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:19 PM

You can see the shims in the pic above.

This was done 5 years ago:


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:21 PM

Adjusting the camber at the wheel instead of at the front of the control arm (like all the 914's) keeps the camber constant throughout the range of motion. Unlike adjusting it at the front of the control arm. Right now in a stock config race car... the camber changes as you load and unload the car into corners. With the fabbed control arm setup adjusting it out at the wheel.. this doesnt happen.


B

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 12 2003, 03:22 PM

Ah yes, grasshopper see.

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 12 2003, 03:25 PM

I spent three years on the alignment rack of a Chrysler dealership in the 70's. I understand the theory. Why is this not a standard upgrade?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:33 PM

914 people wont pay ???? LOL


B

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 12 2003, 03:39 PM

Cheap bastards!

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 12 2003, 03:52 PM

Actually the racers would (if they understand alignments).


B

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 12 2003, 04:07 PM

I know the AX guy's around here spend plenty on stuff that doesn't help. I used to set all three axis of the chrysler front ends in just a few minutes and road test to center steering wheel. All in under 20 minutes. Seems like this would be great for track or autocross. Instant alignment for the specific track.

Posted by: synthesisdv Nov 12 2003, 04:12 PM

"Actually the racers would (if they understand alignments)."

brad, first we better check the rule books. I understand enough to know that those things will kick me right out of most vintage classes.

dr

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 12 2003, 06:11 PM

I wasn't too sure because it doesn't say "Formula" (like Ferrari) on the side of the car in your pic, like it did last time I saw it.

I thought there was a fence inside the garages at WGI.

I'll post pictures of the suspension when I get it together.

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 12 2003, 06:19 PM

That looks nicer than what I saw in pics of Roger Sheridan's car in the past. Good idea, but seems like it would be somewhat more difficult to adjust than the stock method.

Posted by: andys Nov 12 2003, 06:30 PM

Brad,

I see the camber adjustment, but fail to see how caster is aeffected. Can you please explain?

Thanks,

Andy

Posted by: r_towle Nov 12 2003, 07:32 PM

Brad,
What would the front/rear suspension setup pictured above cost?
I will do the front, for sure....need more info on the rear.

BTW, What you did to support the tranny is just right, minimalistic design,,,,,love it.
Is that the new version????

Rich

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 13 2003, 01:22 AM

Andy.. I really shouldnt have said "caster". I get so used to chatting about the front end that it ends up in type.

I should have said TOE... LOL


B

Posted by: 914Timo Nov 13 2003, 01:44 AM

That explains a lot. I was just goingt to ask what a hell you are talking about !!!

Posted by: andys Nov 13 2003, 12:41 PM

Brad,

Are the spherical bearings in the pic used for the trailing arm shaft? Also, where do the two A arms tie in? I assume these are used to set and maintain toe as well as stabilize the ears.

Andy