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Posted by: brer Jan 17 2007, 10:13 PM

I have seen the twin spark dizzies. Straight forward.

Then there are the crank fire twin pack setups. ok.


what else can be used?
Piggyback systems?




(picture is for entertainment purposes only. this is not my motor)


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Posted by: brer Jan 17 2007, 10:34 PM

anyone guess what i'm thinking?


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Posted by: r_towle Jan 17 2007, 10:36 PM

hall sensor, coil on plug dual plug...?

I think Jake did one...its in an article in vw trends ( I think) or hot vws...cant remember

Rich

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 17 2007, 10:49 PM

jake did it...

use a v8 unilite cap and make a custom rotor....

Posted by: Twystd1 Jan 17 2007, 10:51 PM

First off. I have not done twin plug....... YET...

There are many aftermarket EFI systems that will work with COP.

I'm pretty sure I will be using the LINK efi system to facilitate this.

This is gunna be on a type IV.

Adrian, Len, and my machinst friend all have a dual plug setup for the 2.o head.

I like COP as the dwell time for each coil is LONG.... Therefore a smaller coil.

And we can adjust spark timing AND dwell time per cylinder. Schweeet.

AND.... From a cosmetic perspective. You can almost hide all the wires. No dizzy, no plug wires. PURDY....

So how are you gunna do your setup?

C

Posted by: brer Jan 17 2007, 10:56 PM

Curses that Jake!


I knew someone must of done something like this.
seems simple to me.



Just thinking about a way to put my twin plug 1.7 heads to use.
Use a pickup on each plug wire to act as a trigger for the 4 COP's acting on the second plugs.

There are several integrated tach pick ups that would work and not be as fugly as the Timing light clamp.
Incorporate a engine-on switch that reads that the engine is running and energizes the second sparkers.
If the motor dies the system goes cold.

Would work with any standard system that has plug wires.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 17 2007, 11:02 PM

Even easier.. use a Nissan 4 cylinder pickup truck cap and rotor. Make a custom plate to hold the cap, and an adapter for the rotor.

The Nissan cap and rotor were designed for a dual ignition 4 cylinder engine. Requires 2 coils though.


Zim's has a prototype one built that I helped with. Once the owner finds a machine shop to run them, they will be selling bolt on kits to adapt a stock 4 cylinder distributor to dual ignition. It will fit the 356 and 914 engines.

Posted by: brer Jan 17 2007, 11:11 PM

this cap with the dual channel rotor correct?


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Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 17 2007, 11:51 PM

dude... look at the mallory unilte angle.. i think a v8 cap will drop on.....

just need a fab'd rotor....

but the best way is to call clewett and go electromotive...

or Megajolt could do it no?

Posted by: Twystd1 Jan 17 2007, 11:53 PM

Brer, In the picture you posted at the beginning of this.

Wasn't the second pic in the second post, a pic of 6 coil on plug (COP) setups?

Clayton

Posted by: McMark Jan 18 2007, 01:31 AM

Our esteemed Mike Mueller and I had a conversation about this very idea a couple of months ago. I think it's a valid idea, worthy of investigation. The COP angle is a good idea. Should make triggering the spark a little bit easier. But I'm confused, if you have COP, why do you need an 8 post distributor? 4 posts for the 'traditional' spark plugs, COP for the inductive trigger spark plugs. Git 'er DONE!

Posted by: Twystd1 Jan 18 2007, 01:39 AM

McMark,

Thats why I am confused about this thread....

We have a picture of a COP setup and pics of dual plug Porsche 6.

COP doesn't need a dizzy, plug wires, cap, rotor. NADA...

It's all computer controlled.

Thats why I asked him about the pics a few posts back.

I dunno.... I don't get it.

Let's wait and see what Brer is really trying to accomplish.
And how he wants to do it.

Maybe I B retarded... Won't B the 1st time..............................

C

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 18 2007, 07:48 AM

That's it. And the reason for the distributor with the 2 coils is that while the Coil on Plug setup works well, it doesnt' have the vintage feel of 2 coils and the distributor with 8 wires on it (or 12 if you are running a six).

I plan on dual ignition on my new six when I build it. You can buy a dual ignition distributor for a six from various online resources.

Posted by: ottox914 Jan 18 2007, 08:58 AM

All this is cool, but for the type 4 motor, where/how do you come up with the twin plug head, and at what $$$ ?

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 18 2007, 09:11 AM

You have to get a machinist to drill a stock head for a second plug. It would be better to have a plug from the bottom, but the pushrod tubes make it really hard, and you have to use HD motorcycle plugs on the bottom to provide enough clearance.

Posted by: brer Jan 18 2007, 10:36 AM

This is exactly what my idea was. Stock 4 post distributor and ignition for the main plugs, slip on an inductive trigger to each "existing" wire to fire the second plug, which is powered by a COP.

My original thought was that it would remove the need for lots of plug wire running, and the extensions on some of the COP's would allow it to reach the plug up under the head.

Hi temp wires and converting the distributor would cost more than this idea I think.

Simple trigger. less plug wires means lower maintenance costs.

My 1.7 is using the stock DJet system for ever, and is the motor that will be finished first and back in the car first. Otherwise I'd be looking at distributors that dont need the FI trigger switch.


Clayton- The first photo was just a cool pic I found of a twin plug engine.
The second and third were just pictures of COP's and an inductive trigger (used the timing light image so people would grasp the concept) to illustrate what parts I was thinking of using.


Further, I wanted to keep my original 1.7 "stockish" looking since its the original motor for my car. 1.7 tin, but bad plug angle. So I went on thinking and thought that I could add the second plug underneath, and link them up without much hassle to improve the spark. I'm going with HIgh compression PC's and 9:1 ratio, so I think better spark would be a +.

I realize its not as "trick" as the modified cap and twin coils, but this would provide better spark and reliability (maybe?).
And maybe lead to other upgrades later if I make the choice to go EFI.

Posted by: brer Jan 18 2007, 10:48 AM

I posted this to also ask how others had done it.

Other options may exist that are better than the way I was thinking, like the twin spark cap. If there's more lets see em.

Posted by: BigDBass Jan 18 2007, 11:20 AM

This seems like a good place to ask my newbie question: What is the benefit of a twin plug setup?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 18 2007, 12:20 PM

twin plugging allows you to run up to 1 more point of comprssion on the same grade of gas....

say 10:1 was the limit on premium, now you can run 11:1 wih twin plug

Posted by: brer Jan 18 2007, 01:36 PM

cuz its one higher.. right? 11.
(spinal tap)

Posted by: ottox914 Jan 18 2007, 01:48 PM

Anyone got any good pics of some twin plug heads, on the bench or on the motor? And, how about cost to do the head mod? Anyone have a ballpark $$$ they know of?

Posted by: McMark Jan 18 2007, 04:34 PM

Ballpark: $$$$ expensive.

Posted by: brer Jan 18 2007, 04:48 PM

How does $100 hr. sound?




i'm kinda slow though.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 18 2007, 04:51 PM

We perfected it last year with the 257 HP, 2.3L "Mighty Spyder" engine after about 6 months of cutting, fixturing and testing the procedures and plug placement.

Here is an example

This is serious business, not to be attemted by those that lack fixturing/machining experience. It requires extensive preheating, welding and post cooling of the head castings, these heads pictured has 9 hours of solid weld time into them.





To do these first heads was a HUGE task, even for Len and myself to tackle. It required buying a dozen different spark plugs andseeing what worked best physically and then we had to work out the heat ranges. The fixturing process sacrificed 4-5 heads that needed to be cut up to provide the necessary approach angle to get the spark plug out of the way of the pushrod tube, exhaust stub and allow the plug wire to be installed- all of this was done with a 10mm spark plug- nothing else will fit and provide clearance.

When we finished these heads we had them digitized fully, so now all twin plug engines are completed from these tool paths and programs via 5 axis CNC machining which is a requirement to repeat these processes at anything less than a 2,000 buck expenditure...

Now here are my thoughts on this modification.
1- If you don't intend running more than 10;1 CR on pump gas or 13:1 on race gas don't bother with the mods because you'll never gain the benefit they'll offer

2- If you have a bore smaller than 96mm you won't be able to fit both plugs, nor will the flame front of the smaller bore lend it's self to the mods

3- If you plan on doing this mod, but retaining a dizzy you need to reconsider where to spend your money and thats because direct ignition with ONE plug would be a better choice all around than spending money on a dual plug mod only to slap 1970s technology on it for firing purposes!

4- Big bores love it, all my engines with larger than 102mm bore are getting this as standard, we are building two of them now- one N/A 2.9L and another 2.5 EFI/Intercooled boosted engine. The differences that can be seen with big bores and dual plugs are apparent, even at idle. The 2.3l ENGINE THAT MADE 257hp DID SO WITH ONLY A 34 POUND FUEL INJECTOR!!!Thats totally unheard of with single plugs.

5- He who thinks that conventional timing will work optimum with these arrangements has another thing coming, we have seen engines that need as little as 18 degrees of full advance to have optimum EGT/CHT and BSFC, normally these engines with a single plug would require at least TEN more degrees of advance to reach this point. That yells efficiency loud and clear and it also means that EVERYTHING about tuning the dual plug equipped engine changes and you'll be hard pressed to ever tune one without a very well equipped dyno.

So with that being said our LE 200 N/A and LE 220/LE 230 Turbo/large cc N/A heads heads have the option of dual plugging. It adds 1K to their price tag, but the work is done spot on with CNC repeatability.

I have a custom dizzy made from a Nissan Z22 engine set up that offers twin plugs, but I'd never try it without direct fire... Why???

Well this is why, in our experience a dizzy simply cannot offer the ignition manipulation that these mods work best with. The advance curve of a conventionally fired engine is linear as RPM increases, these plugs don't like advance at higher RPM and with a dizzy its difficult to accurately pull timing away from the engine as RPM increases...

The "Mighty Spyder" engine utilized RAT/SDS Engine management with our custom dual coil pack enhancement. With this set up a standard SDS "F" system can be made to fire twin plugs easily with a clean installation...

Its a great mod if you accept the alterations it requires. I'll be happy to help anyone accomplish this mod if they purchase our CNC twin plug heads, I have several combos cooked up that work very well with these mods.

Don't think that a local machinist can do this simply, or easily- doing it correctly gave us a workout and these engines are all we touch.

Tuning the "Mighty Spyder" took us 3 solid days, the first pulls were only 200HP, we tuned another SIXTY into it.

Posted by: alpha434 Jan 18 2007, 06:29 PM

Tits.

Like Jake says, the easy thing will be distribution. Screwing with the heads for that long will be the big hassle. And if your going to be doing something this drastic, then you may as well go all the way. After all is said and done, Jakes heads may even be the cheapest way to go *gasp*.

Posted by: alpha434 Jan 18 2007, 06:30 PM

Meanwhile. I'd want independent spark control for the second set of plugs.

Megasquirt?

Posted by: brer Jan 18 2007, 07:00 PM

I've got that photo in my files Jake. Very impressive.


So adding additional spark is best for larger displacement seems obvious looking down the throat of a 104mm barrel.

no gains for small though?

The Alfa Romeo TS series used twin spark down to 1.6L
They also used two sizes of plugs to achieve it like others here have mentioned, 10mm and 14mm
additionally, while it may not be as hot as EI, i've ridden in some of these alfas and they really move despite the Mechanical Ignition.(those were not TS though, earlier ones)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 18 2007, 09:06 PM

dude.... next engine... twin plug thats just cool stuff.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 18 2007, 09:12 PM

The twin plugs WILL help a smaller bore engine, BUT at that level the benefits are not worth the cost...

As we do this more and more we can gain more data and see why some things are occuring...

I look to do a single VS twin plug comparative/back to back test in the new lab later in 2007. I have not had the opportunity or the equipment to do this as good as possible previously..

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Jan 18 2007, 10:03 PM

Do you think a twin plug 1.7 with a heavy rotating mass, like 9.5:1 CR, and high power ignition could get 40-50 mpg on 91 octane in a stockish 914?

Posted by: brer Jan 18 2007, 10:06 PM

why do people keep saying that about my 1.7L ??

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 19 2007, 07:36 AM

Not at present without fudging it up. Read 2 separate ECUs sharing the same crank sensor and cam sensor. Currently, there is a max of 4 ignition outputs which could do a 4 cylinder COP or cylinder twin plug (Wasted spark) per board. Advance is only 1 table per ECU so the only way to delay firing of the 2nd plug is to use a second ECU. Too much fudging and room for error in my mind.

There is another board in testing that will expand the ignition outputs to 8. I don't know if it will allow separate control of each output. Even if it does I can't imagine tuning it.

As a point of interest, tuning ignition on the street is really hard. I can't say I can do it. To tell the truth, you can collect so much data it becomes more than you can use. I suspect to do a really good job one would need exhaust gas temps from each cylinder and head temps from each cylinder along with air fuel ratio. That would mean that for every sampling and in MS you can sample each rotation you would be looking at those 9 columns and MAP, RPM, throttle opening, pulse width and advance. The thought of all of those numbers makes my head spin. Course you could only sample every 50th rotation or some other number but, then you have to wonder if you'll miss something. Fortunately I have an ignition map Jake supplied me that I have changed very little and I know it is safe. Advance comes in early and falls off at higher RPMs. I would have never found that last part without Jake's help and most tables I have seen have advance steady after it reaches max.

With Jake's permission I'll share that table with the usual warnings (If you melt it it's your lump). Sorry but, such is life when you're trying off the wall stuff.

Dave

Posted by: cnavarro Jan 19 2007, 09:40 AM

Just as with 911's, those guys pretty much don't twin plug until they get to 98mm or larger (for street engines at least). I see plenty of guys doing twin plug small bore engines, but they are running gobs or compression in what is in essense a race engine. Not that the chambers are any bit the same as a type 4, but a good comparison point nonetheless...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 19 2007, 11:30 AM

My "Super 2 Liter" combo is based similar to this with high velocity 1.7 heads...

It has gotten 51 MPG with a SINGLE plug.

It would be very hard to do a twin plug on a 1.7 casting due to chamber shape and volume.

We base the twin plug heads on the 1.8 castings.

Posted by: alpha434 Jan 19 2007, 11:41 AM

Hey, I know we've sort of gotten away from the idea with the cable-clamps...

Would a corona charge be enough to fire the extra cylinders? Or was the idea just to trigger an ignition sequence.

Posted by: brer Jan 19 2007, 12:02 PM

the idea was to use an inductive trigger on each plug wire to fire a second plug on each cylinder. Since the second plugs would be COP, they would each have their own individual trigger..... clamped to the corresponding wire.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 19 2007, 12:34 PM

how funny, I talked to a few people about the inductive triggering as well...what is unknown (by me and those I talked to) is the lag or time delay for the second plug, I know that for pretty much any twin plug setup you cannot get both plugs to fire at exactly the same time, but if one it trailing too much, it might not have any postive results.

Posted by: brer Jan 19 2007, 12:58 PM

what if both plugs were COP and triggered by the same signal?

Posted by: Mueller Jan 19 2007, 02:00 PM

there will still be a time differance, but it might not be as measureable....

I think the EDIS can trigger COP now, been a while since I've followed that stuff....I know some of the pricey aftermarket ECU's can do what you want...all it takes is money

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2007, 10:21 AM

You could use EDIS to trigger COP but, it's not as easy as it seems on the surface.

At first is would seem that a module for a 8 cylinder car on a 4 cylinder engine might give 4 cylinder twin plug but, it won't work because the sparks are miss timed. It will fire 8 times in 720 crankshaft degrees (1 engine cycle). This means it fires near TDC (good) but also near BDC (bad).

So then, how about two 4 cylinder modules? Here are some things to consider. Each module must have a signal from a VR sensor or the module will revert to limp home mode (constant 10 degrees advance). If one uses 2 separate VR sensors so each module has it's own VR sensor there will be a difference in timing because it's impossible to mount them on top of each other. So, that means the 2 modules must share the VR sensor. Fortunately, this will work, I've done it on the bench with the trigger wheel on my drill press. One can use the tach imput signal (PIP) from one module to trigger the ECU. This is known to work cause it is exactly how I trigger my engine now. The timing advance signal from the ECU (SAW) can be split and go to both modules. This is known to work. Thankfully, the modules do dwell control themselves.

So at this point there would be a current from 2 modules that could charge the primaries of 2 coils and the dwell is taken care of kind of. Here's the deal, each EDIS coil has 2 poles and each is attached via the spark plug wire to a plug. The current runs from 1 pole through the wire to the plug with a strong spark in the fuel and air, then through the engine to the other plug where it sparks and returns to the other pole of the same coil. The second spark is weak because it has to spark through exhaust gas. This second plug also has a reversed polarity. Almost all of the energy from the coil sparks in the first cylinder. If you try to spark both through air/fuel as in twin plug situation you get 2 sparks with about half the energy of a normal application. I really don't think this so hot. I know this is not COP but, I'm getting there. The solution to this is to run the wires from tower 1 of the first coil to cylinder 1 and the tower 2 to cylinder 3 and repeat with the second coil. In essence, this is separate EDIS systems running in parallel but sharing imputs.

Now here's the problems with COP and EDIS. The coil drivers in the EDIS modules expect coils of a certain inductance. If that value isn't close the dwell will be wrong and the coils will either heat up too much or have a weak spark. I don't know what inductance EDIS expects and this info is not easy to find for most coils. If it could be matched it would probably work but, it would still be wasted spark and each set of plugs would fire twice in an engine cycle and that halves one of the advantages of COP which is long coil dwell. It is certainly a compromise.

The really solution as I see it should take 1 of 2 paths.

First, there are COP coils that are smart meaning they contain the driver and dwell control in the coil case on the plug. These then only need a signal from the ECU to chargeprimary and discharge collapsing the field. These probably would get a 5 Volt signal from the ECU. It's been a while since I looked but, I believe some GM coils are smart. To do this right, the ECU would need information on crank position for timing and information on cam position to know which cylinder to fire. Likely the ECU would need 4 ignition outputs and the 2 coils on each cylinder could share the same 5 V signal.

The second way to do it would involve conventional coils. In this case the coil drivers and dwell control are in a module or in the ECU. The sensors required would be the same as above but, one would need 8 ignition outputs that would carry 12 Volts and enough amperage to charge the primaries of the coils. The advantage of this is it is more widely applicable and the coils are a lot cheaper. Likely, the dwell would need to be tuned in the software.

To me this just seems like too much work. I just can't see that I would gain much over the EDIS system I am running now.






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Posted by: brer Jan 20 2007, 11:53 AM

is this the long stroke small piston engine?


regarding time delay on the inductive pickups.... they are used to set the timing of the engine triggering the timing light so the delay must be minute. milliseconds.

Posted by: alpha434 Jan 20 2007, 02:16 PM

A custom rotor with two outputs.

Posted by: brer Jan 20 2007, 02:50 PM

hasn't the idea of linking two edis 4 modules to the same read sensor been thrown out already? or is the problem one of sync between the two.


The machinist I know has a program written to notch the type 4 fan so it could be used as the edis crank fire wheel.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 20 2007, 06:50 PM

machining the fan to be an EDIS wheel is a killer idea!

Posted by: Crazyhippy Jan 20 2007, 06:56 PM

Should look into doing DOHC instead of dual sparks... Much more HP potential...

Adding watercooling will help keep temperatures morre consistant too, And If you're doing custom heads, do a Hemi style, w/ the spark plug centered, so you dont need a 2nd plug.

Then get the heads to seal better, and throw some boost at it

BJH

Posted by: brer Jan 20 2007, 09:00 PM

or you could skip 20 years of technology and obtain some 2007 Mercedes Benz valve control servos and do a 100% digital valve train.

Posted by: Crazyhippy Jan 20 2007, 09:17 PM

I prefer Rotary Valves....

http://www.coatesengine.com/technology.html

All it takes is $$$

BJH

Posted by: brer Jan 20 2007, 09:19 PM

you win that round.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 24 2007, 08:36 PM

brer, I think I found a solution for firing the twin-plugs via a distributor...

Compufire has a kit that has some electronic that go into your distributor which in turn fire a twin coil pack (wasted spark)

I would almost be willing to bet that if you connected up another coil pack, the control modual that resides inside the distributor would also be able to fire the second set up plugs.

so for less than $300 (according to ebay) you would have all that is needed to fire all 8 plugs....

I'd also bet that you could fit the parts needed into a Mallory body so that you could easily set your advance curve if you wish.



http://www.compufire.com/pdf-instructions/51105-DIS-IX_DISTRIBUTORLES.PDF

Posted by: McMark Jan 24 2007, 09:09 PM

Or wire up two sensors 180 degrees off and it's not wasted spark anymore (1 coil per cylinder w/ two spark plugs). That looks pretty cool Mike.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jan 24 2007, 09:19 PM

It won't work that way. You get a dead miss. The "waste spark" ignition is based on the fact that it takes really high voltage to jump the plug gap under compression, and a lot lower voltage to jump the plug gap when the exhaust port is open. If you have both under compression, it doesn't have the voltage to fire the plugs.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 24 2007, 09:39 PM

as I think Jonny Carson would say..."I didn't know that"

makes sense once you think about it...they do recommend a huge .050" gap...you could make the gap smaller to make the "jump" easier, but what fun would that be

Posted by: East coaster Jan 24 2007, 09:41 PM

From the aircraft world: http://www.greatplainsas.com/2007.pdf

Type-4 dual plug heads for $680 a pair.

Posted by: racerbvd Jan 24 2007, 10:12 PM

Twin plug Type IVs aren't new, I have a 2.1 that Jay at RPM in Port Orange, FL. (long since closed, Jay MIA) back in the mid 80s, some of his work including the twin plug set up (using the Nap Z dizzy) was featured in VW & Porsche magazine a few times. I plan on using that engine in my 76, but updating with a Jakobs ign. system. My 911 was done by iSystems Performance.


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Posted by: jd74914 Jan 24 2007, 10:34 PM

Lets see some pics of that TIV Byron

Posted by: Brando Jan 25 2007, 10:37 AM

Oooooooh... $682 a pair?

That almost makes it affordable. But I wonder what a good shop would charge just to do it on a good set of heads?

Posted by: mudfoot76 Jan 25 2007, 12:46 PM

http://www.haminc.biz/main.shtml

Posted by: brer Jan 25 2007, 01:20 PM

never heard of him.

Posted by: Brando Jan 25 2007, 03:09 PM

Poop, I'ma have to call him again for a price, because it isn't listed under his list of services.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 25 2007, 04:11 PM

that gives you a crappy 009 advance curve

Posted by: Brando Jan 28 2007, 01:44 AM

Why would it give him a crappy 009 advance curve if they're using a mallor distributor? Besides, with a 009 you can re-spring them accordingly. You just have to keep trying and changing springs until you get the advance curve desired.

Posted by: Twystd1 Jan 28 2007, 03:08 AM

I am still trying to figure out why you want to use a dizzy and incorporate COP.

It sounds like a novel approach. Yet I don't get it. (nuthin new)

You could accomplish a BETTER end result with electronics.

Totally lap top programmable. And have the ability to change settings on the fly.

This alone would pay for itself in saved dyno time. Imagine paying for hours of dyno time as you fiddle with a dizzy, it's curves and the inability to really change settings for a twin plug set up on a mechanical level unless you remove the dizzy and change the curves and tweak the electronics or a however you are going to fire the second set of coils for the second set of plugs.

I bet the time wasted on this setup at a dyno shop at 125 - 175 $$++++ per hour would pay for a full Programmable Electronic ignition setup that would work better in the long run. Plus you would get a free EFI brain if you wanted to use the EFI functionality.

I dunno... just doesn't make sense to me.

If you want the look of spark plug wires. You can do what the 911 guys do.
Many of them run the Electromotive Tech series brain and coil packs.
This a known twin plug Porsche setup for six's. Works on 4s just as good.
http://www.racetep.com/electro/XDIman.pdf

The SDS setup will also handle coil packs for twin plug 4.

Some fun stuff..... 356 twin plug Q&A
http://www.356registry.org/tech/twin_plug_ignition_ladow.html

For me.. I would simply run the COP with a programmable ECU and be done with it.

C

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 28 2007, 07:19 AM

There was a pretty good example of what can happen if you overcharge a coil at the 24 Hours of Daytona this weekend. Several Pontiac engine cars came in to change coil packs. One crew member was checking them with a pyrometer. All had overheated coils. Sure looks to me like they got the wrong inductance or someone tuned the dwell wrong. I bring this up because I'm not sure that the original idea would control dwell.

These looked like modules of 4 coils. My guess is Coil near Plug so the leads are very short.

Posted by: Brando Jan 28 2007, 01:50 PM

Clayton, when you go with that electromotive setup, can I rub one out on it?

Err, i mean, can I hang around and help you fiddle with it? I would love to learn how to set up a system like that and help out. It's what I have wet dreams of for my future supercharged 2.3L... In my wet dreams.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 28 2007, 02:05 PM

those are designed to fit into a bosch dizzy (009 i believe) yes... you CAN play with a bosch dizzy advance curves with springs and tabs.... but why? its sloppy even new....

mallories are nice..... but they still wont support dual plug easily...

in the end you could have gone crank fire

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 28 2007, 09:47 PM

We are now much closer to the Ignition shootout with the new lab all finished up...
I just have a watercooled engine to finish up some development with and then a 2.5L EFI/Intercooled/Turbo to dyno and it's time to stop the squabbles..

You can watch LIVE via the net, you just have to subscribe- details on that later...

I have one of every ignition system available easily peramanently installed and hardwired into the lab, a turn of a switch changes the system- we can test 3 systems in two minutes, back to back to back.

Posted by: brer Jan 28 2007, 09:57 PM

Thats what makes my original idea cool (if it would work). You can use whatever the hell you like for ignition. Dizzie, or whatever as long as it has plug wires you just jump from them with the inductive trigger to fire the second plug.

Delay is the kicker, but I'm wondering how much delay there can be seeing as timing lights are pretty accurate right?

Posted by: Brando Jan 29 2007, 09:04 PM

let's keep this topic going. Lots of good info here. :thumbup:

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Jan 29 2007, 10:34 PM

Looking at where the second set of plugs would need to go (based on Raby's setup) and seeing everything in the way when I was doing my valve adjustment, twin plugs in a -4 would have to be for race engines or non-heated S&M street cars No thank you! If I want dual plugs I'll take 'em in a -6

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 29 2007, 11:00 PM

It's very tight, but the lower plugs in my set up are able to be removed without any serious work... We even made a special spanner to make it easier.

The 10mm plugs are a must, however..

Without exhaustive work on Len's part these would never have worked without having to remove pushrod tubes with each plug change.

If you don't want to run 11:1 on pump gas, or if you don't have a 103+mm bore leave it alone.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 29 2007, 11:31 PM

When I bought my LINK ECU (and Randal bought his at the same time from same place) the advice from Neil at Performance Developments recommended against crankfire and to use the dizzy (it is still laptop programmable)....the LINK supports crankfire at no added cost....also, I was "this" close to buying a MoTec, same advice from the local tuning guru...both felt crankfire was not worth the extra costs/troubles...and I'm sure you know Niel is an ex-Porsche Motorsports engineer

For Jake or someone willing to spend hours on the dyno, I'm guessing that yes, he might be able to squeeze a little more from a crankfire, but at what cost??

aaron, that setup might fit in other dizzy's, I'm guessing they used the 009 as an example due to it being available brand new at a reasonable cost??? just a guess...

Posted by: 914fan Jan 29 2007, 11:35 PM

Did anybody notice that the heads on page 11 that are suppost to be TIVs are TIs? Page 28 says the TIVs are pictured on pg11. I don't know that I would trust a company that can't lable the catalog right.

Posted by: Twystd1 Jan 30 2007, 12:59 AM

As far as crank fire. There is NO WAY a dizzy can be as accurate as a timing wheel on the crank.

WE have beat this question to death on other forums.

With back to back dyno tests from Lance Nist.
(Lance has enough patents on automotive ignitions and ecu's to make your head spin)

The wheel works best. There are harmonics and dizzy gear lash issues that won't allow a dizzy to be as accurate as a wheel.

If the engine is out of the car such as in Randals case. It is is no big deal to install a wheel on the crank. And install a sensor on the block.
Most of the MegaSquirt guys do this.
I THINK Jake has done this for a SDS installs.
(Jake, chime in here please)

It's really not a big deal to install one. If the engine is out of the car.

Conversely, If the engine is in the car. And you don't need/want MAXIMUM benefit of a trick programmable ignition. Using the dizzy to trigger the ignition.. WORKS. And works pretty well.

Kinda depends on your end result, dollars, willingness to get the maximum benefit of the system.

Rather than writing a dissertation on this.

I will post a link of a guy that did the Wheel installation on a water cooled 4 cylinder engine. He went from Ford EDIS coil pack to COP.
This guy kinda reminds me of Trekkor. Make do with what you have.
Fun little article......
http://www.hbci.com/~tskwiot/2002_MSII.html


There are already type IV crank wheel setups for sale from vendors.

IMHO... That is the best way to go if the engine is out of the car.

And I agree Brando... This is a great thread.

OH..... Randal... I won't second guess Neil Harvey. (very often)

C

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 30 2007, 01:48 AM

Omitting the dizzy is the first step in making big power thats super adjustable... Dizzys have mechanical properties that WILL scatter spark, especially at higher RPM, even if the advance is being controlled within the ECU..

The reason that fellow probably advised against direct fire was because he didn't want to support the install! Wiring direct fire with these arrangements (except SDS) is a real bitch as it requires a "Reference" and a "Synch" signal, then there are adjustments thatt trim both these..

It is even difficult for us, for the past 3 days we have been fighting with a Motec Direct ignition arrangement on the new dyno- its no fun at all..

sometimes people recommend whats best for them, not you or the engine- especially if they have to spend hours helping you set it up-

Some Motec pics from today..


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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2007, 08:23 AM

Clayton

Cool info on the BMW 2002. I may be looking for BMW coils pretty soon.

Dave

Posted by: brer Jan 30 2007, 10:38 AM

I spoke with Great Plains and their twin spark conversion for the type 4 positions the second plug on the top of the motor, offset from the stock position at an angle.

244 dollars.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2007, 10:49 AM

I'm a little out of my field of expertise but, this is how I see it An aviation application may not be a good choice for us. Remember the 2nd plug is for redundancy in case first ignition system goes out. The position of the plug is not that critical. As I understand it, in our application the second plug is to get a second spark front going to get a more complete burn. Having it on the opposite side of the combustion chamber is an advantage.

Dave

Posted by: brer Jan 30 2007, 10:58 AM

I think you're right. I was curious as to how they approached it, and figured that info should be posted here so people dont go calling them up asking the same question.


So since we're talking crank fire applications now, what the shopping list and donor cars people should be looking at? Ford EDIS systems are from what models?

other options? and more importantly whats the COST of the different setups?

electromotive $$$
sds $$

Posted by: jd74914 Jan 30 2007, 11:02 AM

Ford EDIS is from the 2.3turbos IIRC

Posted by: brer Jan 30 2007, 11:07 AM

what car and years?

Posted by: toon1 Jan 30 2007, 01:14 PM

EDIS-4 90-93 4cyl models, this info came from the Megasquirt website, MS11 ignition .
Tells all about setting up the VR sensor and trigger wheel.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2007, 01:43 PM

EDIS-4, 1990 to 1993 1.9L 4 cylinder engines. Ford Escort, and i think Mercury Lynx.

Grab the trigger wheel, the VR sensor, the module, the coil and as much of the wiring harness as possible. In patricular, the wiring from the sensor to the module and from the module to ECU are shielded. Also the connectors are important.

Dave

Posted by: toon1 Jan 30 2007, 01:57 PM

Dave, are you using this on your car?

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2007, 02:56 PM

Yep, Here's the EDIS wheel adapted to the type IV fan hub.



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Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2007, 02:58 PM

Here's the VR sensor on the back of the cooling shroud. it sits under the oil cooler


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Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 30 2007, 04:42 PM

brer mentioned machining the fan to have tooths on it.... that is genius

Posted by: toon1 Jan 30 2007, 05:05 PM

Nice!!! I'm going to that when I install my MS.

Sorry about the hijack

Posted by: brer Jan 30 2007, 06:58 PM

If anyone is interested I might just try it out on my extra fan.

Posted by: toon1 Jan 31 2007, 09:29 AM

How are you going to do it? A Milling machine?

I would like to see it when you are done.

Posted by: brer Jan 31 2007, 12:32 PM

My friend has a shop with CNC.
its a snip to notch an object like the tooth wheel.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 31 2007, 12:34 PM

what about orientation?

doesnt it matter where the missing tooth goes? ie... it dictates where you need to put your sensor?

and the fan only goes on one way right?

i have an extra fan i think i could donate to the cause

Posted by: brer Jan 31 2007, 01:01 PM

sensor position would need to be decided first, based on mounting surfaces.
Then you would want it to have a bit of adjustment for fine tuning i'm guessing.

is the big notch TDC? or?

set crank to desired position, mark the fan where you want the big notch to fall with respect to the sensor.


I had though it would be cool to mount the sensor in the timing access hole.
incorporated into a screw in device to replace the plug.

I have a fan with two busted blades I could play with.

Posted by: brer Jan 31 2007, 04:37 PM

anyone have an ignition map for twin spark??
or would one map be used for both sets of plugs?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 31 2007, 04:43 PM

oh that is just brilliant!

how would you verify timing then?

Posted by: brer Jan 31 2007, 04:48 PM

dont ask me.
I'm just thinking out loud.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 31 2007, 04:50 PM

the toothed fan doesnt mean twin blug... you can utilize that for ANY crank fire system.....

big red line/notch on fan is TDC iirc....

Posted by: brer Jan 31 2007, 04:52 PM

doesn't the gap have to be at a certain position?
is it reading TDC or just revolutions?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 31 2007, 04:55 PM

i would expect you could index the gap to a certain "position" on the crank....

but i have no experience with edis/crankfire/sds/megasquirt

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 31 2007, 04:56 PM

scratch that. i know how to google.

Posted by: brer Jan 31 2007, 05:14 PM

not sure, but i'd throw one of http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BILLET-TIMING-POINTER-WITH-BUILT-IN-TIMING-LIGHT_W0QQitemZ200068515005QQcmdZViewItem in there somehow.

Posted by: brer Feb 1 2007, 05:37 PM

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PH&Product_Code=POW301155&Category_Code=SPARKPLUG

could be useful for removing difficult to reach second plug.

Posted by: Brando Feb 1 2007, 06:39 PM

Granted how often I change my plugs... About that time the pushrod tube seals would be leaking anyways I would have like 5000 miles to make/break/find a tool that would work. I'm thinking something along the lines of a modified box-end wrench but that's just me.

Posted by: brer Feb 1 2007, 07:38 PM

tools are good to keep in the trunk




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Posted by: brer Feb 1 2007, 08:41 PM

this is the specs from one of the units i've been emailed info on.
anyone who understands EFI care to comment?

* 4 ignition outputs requiring EXTERNAL driver
* Positive active output
* 128 main map sites specifying ignition angle in degrees
* 16 Manifold pressure sites
* 16 Engine temperature sites
* 16 Dwell sites (by RPM)
* Ignition fault input from external driver
* Total ignition: main map entry in degrees
* Manifold pressure entry
* Engine temperature entry
* Separate CRANK (CB1) and CAM (CB2) inputs
* All inputs balanced (floating) for extra noise immunity
* Inputs can be configured for un-balanced high threshold level
* Missing tooth or CAM cylinder identification
* Multiple teeth trigger from 18-60 teeth per turn
* Optional Single tooth trigger modes

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 1 2007, 09:47 PM

Nope,
you'll never get that tool in place for the second plug....

even with a 10mm plug you can't imagine how tight it is, even when perfectly positioned.

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 1 2007, 10:00 PM

Here are some money shots for ya..

257 MassIVe HP from 2.3L on pump gas with 11.1:1 CR

Makes power to 8,300 RPM and turns 9K like nothing.

Posted by: McMark Feb 1 2007, 10:07 PM

Um, yeah, that's cramped.

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 1 2007, 10:18 PM

No one listens!

Posted by: r_towle Feb 1 2007, 10:54 PM

Jake,
What is a spanner?

Posted by: brer Feb 2 2007, 12:18 AM

When I can think of a word to describe how cool that motor is I'll let you know.

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 2 2007, 12:48 PM

An improvised "Wrench", typically made by the creator of odd things to do odd jobs..

Or it's the english (England) word for "wrench"...