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Posted by: jkeyzer Nov 21 2003, 11:02 PM

Last time I helped drop a 914 engine, we used the Pelican method of lowering the car almost to the ground and letting the motor plop out onto a furniture dolly. I don't know that I like this method because it really requires 2 jacks and there is no obvious way to get the engine back in when you're done, since you used gravity to help get it out.

I would like to raise and support the car, then lower the engine on my floorjack. But there is obviously going to be a balance problem. I've also heard some people use threaded rods to slowly lower everything but this sounds like too much trouble.

So what's the best way?

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 21 2003, 11:14 PM

The threaded rod method is safe and easy. Maybe slightly slower than the balance-on-the-jack method, but the few extra minutes it takes is nothing. The rods make it a one-person job.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 21 2003, 11:16 PM

Call Brad.

You disconnect everything and I will have it out in less than 5 minutes on a floorjack.

If you weigh 50lbs..use the threaded rod method.


B

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 21 2003, 11:19 PM

yupp, balance on a floor-jack is easy. even if you're alone.
it's way easier with 2 poeple tho.

Andy

Posted by: redshift Nov 21 2003, 11:25 PM

I actually lifted my motor once all by myself! (*almost)



M

Posted by: roundboy914 Nov 21 2003, 11:25 PM

I use this method.
Jack the car up, put on jack stands.
Put jack under engine and drop engine, using jack (balances quite easily).
realize that engine and trans will not clear, since your jack stands are not tall enough.
Call over one friend and brother.
You and brother lift up azz of car (not as heavy as you think), and your friend drags out the engine.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 21 2003, 11:27 PM

Oops..

Yeah. I use the 2 ton tall jack stands. Not the little ones Place them under the donuts. You can place them on the control arms but the crossbar ends up catching on them.

Axles are the biggest concern. They get in the way.


B

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 21 2003, 11:33 PM

I just put the rear up on standard ramps. Leave the wheels and rear valance on, everything clears if you take off the induction first. Very stable.

Guess Im the sissy...again...

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 21 2003, 11:36 PM

Ahh.. that is the secrect.

I remove the air cleaner and drop them.

We dont remove anything else.

How do you get it out from under the car ??


B

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 21 2003, 11:37 PM

On a furniture dolly. The engine bar supports the front (by the rods)and a floor jack lowers the tranny for a three point balance.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 21 2003, 11:49 PM

Oh.. I dont own a dolly.

The rear muffler hanger works great as a grab handle for balancing the engine on the floorjack (which works as the dolly)

I'm lazy. I dont want to run back and forth from either side loosening the nuts on the threaded shaft a little at a time.

Same cat (again and again)


B

Posted by: McMark Nov 22 2003, 12:15 AM

Yeah, I did the thread rod method once and never again. Safe, but slow as hell. Good if you're nervous. I'd get everything removed and have the wife/girlfriend/buddy help out of 5 mintues while you're actually lowering it. Aim the floor jack at the nub on the center rear of the engine and use the exhaust as a leveling handle.

Posted by: Hawktel Nov 22 2003, 12:21 AM

I carried a pick and pull Subbie 4 banger 20 yards to get it for just over free acouple years back.

I think I could deadlift a 4banger, but I'm going to work really hard to not try to.

Posted by: tesserra Nov 22 2003, 12:34 AM

Has anyone tried using one of those ATV-Motorcycle jacks?
$69.00 at Sams club.
I bought one to take out my v8. They come with a really wide base and more of a transmission jack setup with straps for stability.
I have not used it yet, but taking out the V8 is more difficult because the motor is so much taller and heavier and I figured I need all the help I could get.
It should work well but there is a learning curve on everything and I am just trying to be as safe as possible.
I will first jack the car up, front and back, and set it on some real knarly 6x8 timbers set across the car. The timbers will be made stable with plywood gussets. That should give me a safe place to work under. Then just set the ATV jack under the motor loosen up everything and drop it down slowly and SAFELY.

Well thats the (lengthy) plan anyway.
I used to do clutch jobs on Bugs in about 1 hr. This is a little more complex though, and I haven't dropped an engine in about 20 yrs! Wish me luck!

George

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 22 2003, 12:37 AM

George..

This is what I found was easiest with the V8's. Buy a cheap carb plate and use a regular cherry picker to lower it to a cheap steel frame creaper. It will allow you to roll it right out. A V8 with tranny will sit on a steel frame creeper with no problems.


B

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 22 2003, 12:41 AM

Ayup


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Posted by: redshift Nov 22 2003, 02:36 AM

Is that snow JP?

Beautiful


M

Posted by: tesserra Nov 22 2003, 08:14 AM

JP Thats my lift !! Looks like its made for the job.

Brad, I thought of the cherry picker through the engine lid but I don't trust myself with a chain going thru the engine opening, (paint, body damage) Besides I don't have a cherry picker and I figured, if I have to own something, this floor hoist is easier to hide from my wife in the garage!!

Thanks,
George

Posted by: skline Nov 22 2003, 08:35 AM

Well, I have pulled my engine out about 8 or 9 times in the past 2 years. I always jack up the back as high as I can get it on jackstands and then I use my floor jack with a 2x10 running the length of the engine and trans and drop it out by myself. I lift up the board and pull the floorjack out and then slide the engine on the board out from under the car. I will try to attach a picture of how high I get the car. I have already heard a lot of guff about how I do it. But it works for me.


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Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 22 2003, 08:53 AM

pelican method. time vs safety? safety hands down. placing a couple of 2x4 on the front of the dolly approximatates the angle of the car when it's tail down. with care i can get the stock bolts in to line up the front bar. i think i'm getting an atv lift for christmas. jeanne asked me "would this work on the cars?". since SHE owns a 914 now, SHE"S going to have to learn some maintenance proceedures. no more oil changing for me. her stocking will have one of the plastic oil filter doodads and some h.d latex gloves in it.

kevin

Posted by: r_towle Nov 22 2003, 09:43 AM

To answer the question.
My favorite way would be for someone else to do it while I had a smoke......

Really, I like the pelicam method, 20 minuted and its on the dolly already, no need to move it around on the jack...

the engine wieghs what....300 pound (I cant believe it, seems lighter)

Two of us can pick it up on to a bench no problem.

I have gone to an "all you can carry" day at the local junk yard and carried quite a few out by myself......maybe 150 feet...just put a strap over your shoulders and tie each end to the intake....waddle, but for 25 bucks, you get an engine if you make it....amazing what a cheap bastard can carry...

I saw a guy at this yearly event carry an entire Caddy inerior, seats, headliner, door panels, dash....everything inside, one guy, lots of rope,,,,waddle (cheap bastard)

Rich

Posted by: thesey914 Nov 22 2003, 09:52 AM

I use the same method as Skline, but first I slide under a forklift battery trolley I "acquired". It has about 1/4 inch of room so when the mount bolts are loosened a little the whole lump is resting on the trolley. Then jacking the car under the engine firewall ( gets the tail nice & high ) with a piece of timber running the width of the car I jack the car up as high as is shown in Skylines picture.
All the carbs/manifolds are removed and the only thing that usually gets in the way when I slide it out are as Brad said the driveshafts on the coil.
Getting the bugger back in I find easier using this method too.
oh and don't forget the trans earth strap

Posted by: MarkV Nov 22 2003, 10:20 AM

So is it easier to pull the heat exchangers before you pull the engine?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 22 2003, 02:40 PM

Kevin,

There is nothing un-safe about using the floor jack method. The worst that can happen: the engine tilts forward on the floorjack and the cross bar touches the ground. Nothing can fall "past" the jackstands.

I wouldnt trust all thread with the weight of anything.


Oh.. I remove the 4 M8 bolts that hold the rear mounts in place... I dont slide the tranny off the large M12 tranny bolts.

My next step is a roller table that goes under the car while its on the lift.


b

Posted by: Brad Roberts Nov 22 2003, 02:44 PM

Mark,

It depends on what you plan on doing with the engine when its out of the car.

I pull them off prior if I know the entire engine is coming apart... but I leave the rear cross hanger on the tranny for a nice handle for balance.

Typically I will place the engine up on 3 jackstands (one under the tranny and two under the crossbar.) We strip complete engines down this way. It allows you to sit on a roll around seat and get to everything without bending over. It may take you and a buddy to put the engine/tranny up there.. but it only take a minute or so to do it.

This way you can work under the engine (while its on the stands).


B

Posted by: Curvie Roadlover Nov 22 2003, 04:11 PM

I used the engine out on the floor jack method without a problem. I was told that the Pelican method makes it very difficult to remove the bolts on the tranny end. This seems to make sense to me because with the car low enough to have the engine almost on the furniture dolly, there wouldn't be much room to get your hands up in there to get at those bolts.
True?

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Nov 23 2003, 12:05 AM

Hi,
Put me down for the Pelican method. I think it works best and safest if you have never done it before and I had never done it before. This all reminds me of the guy that pulled his type1 out by himself. He sat behind the car facing forward with his legs under the engine. He started pulling on the exhaust tips and very shortly he had the engine out ... resting on his legs. Someone finally heard him yelling for help. It happened to be a friend of his and when he stopped laughing he helped get the engine off his legs. Nothing broken but some nasty bruises and a really red face!
Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Nov 23 2003, 01:51 PM

Used it on an air-cooled VW...works great!

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 23 2003, 02:16 PM

I've used the two jacks and 4 wheel dolly(pelican) method three times. I can have a motor stabbed and cranked in 3 hours. Make damn sure the engine mount bar is resting on the end of the dolly when removing.

Curvie, Take three of the rear mount bolts completely out and back the fourth off till three threads are left just before letting the car down.

I think a custom cradle to stabilze the motor and attach to a floor jack would be the ideal setup. Maybe I'll fab something next time.

Elliot, I too used that method an bug in the 70's(girlfriends car), but wasn't stupid enought to get under it when I did.
Set a 2X12 on the ground, grabbed the pipes, pulled it out, and lifted the rear bumper over the motor.

Posted by: jkeyzer Nov 23 2003, 02:51 PM

I think I am going to try the floorjack method. I r&r'd the transmission on my Mustang that way and did the whole thing single handed without any major problems.

I think my biggest problem will be that my jackstands are probably not tall enough. I have another set at my parents that I can grab - they are the tall SUV style that were too tall for my old floorjack - I couldn't even get them under the car with the jack at full lift.

So for all you guys that like the Pelican method, how do you get the engine BACK in the car again? When we did my friend's car, the engine actually had to DROP 1-2" to get onto the dolly. We still haven't put it back in (the car is a goner, terminal rust) so I have never seen an engine go back in.

Posted by: vsg914 Nov 23 2003, 03:36 PM

Maybe my dolly was taller? It didn't have to drop at all. In is actually easier than out.

After doing it a few times, I too think a floor jack or tranni type jack would be quicker. The scary part of the pelican method is having the entire rear of the car balanced on two jacks controlled by two different people.
Teamwork and communications are the goal here.

BTW, how come a bunch of motor heads are talking about dollies?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 23 2003, 07:19 PM

Made my dolly out of 3/4" plywood and a 2X4. bought small 90 lb caster wheels and 10 minutes I had a perfect dolly.

Jack in front and one in back lower onto dolly. raise car with jacks and roll motor out.

Then roast body over an open flame for 20-30 minutes. I shoulda skipped that last step. Although it sure can strip paint fast. Tough on interior and fiberglass bumpers.

Posted by: URY914 Nov 23 2003, 07:44 PM

1) I pick up the back of the car with one hand

2) Loosen the two bolts that I have holding the engine in with the other hand.

3) Shake it real good.

4) Engine falls on foot.

5) Kick the engine out from under car.

Paul

Posted by: stock93 Nov 23 2003, 10:52 PM

I use the floorjack method. I've used my "transmission jack"(little beer belly) to drop type 1s on several occasions then just slide out from under the car with the engine. We have had to replace the clutches out in the woods several times w/out a floor jack.

John

Posted by: Curvie Roadlover Nov 24 2003, 04:05 AM

LOL

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 24 2003, 08:33 AM

With the threaded rod/furniture dolly method, the engine doesnt 'drop' to the dolly. The car sits on its wheels on ramps, nice and steady like. Each 3/8 inch threaded rod (you use 2) is good for at least 1000 lbs, so there is no safety problem.

"Reinstall is the reverse of removal."

Posted by: Steve Thacker Nov 24 2003, 11:37 AM

RDX + C4= 2 sec engine drop,...top that PP!.... LOL

Posted by: airsix Nov 24 2003, 12:02 PM

Life is too short to screw around with some threaded rod Rube Goldberg nonsense. Go spend the $65 for a ATV lift or $40 for a Harbor Freight transmission jack. You'll be able to get the whole drivetrain out in minutes, safely, by youself, no fuss.

I use the $40 tranny jack with a piece of plywood fastened to the pad. All I have to do is jack up the car, run up the jack, unhook stuff, run the jack down, and roll the whole mess out from under the car. Done. (JP's ATV jack & dolly combo looks like the absolute perfect setup)

-Ben M.

Posted by: indydad Nov 24 2003, 12:49 PM

Threaded rod and floor jack on trans lowered onto a furniture dolly. I had experience with Corvairs and I used threaded rod on them too. Did it by myself.
Jerry
Indy

Posted by: Steve Thacker Nov 24 2003, 01:06 PM

Airsix has the correct method. I also currently use the same tool and it makes removal and installation a snap. Safety is assured since most Motorcycle / ATV jacks have straps. You can make a wood platform to help balance the unit.

Posted by: jkeyzer Nov 24 2003, 01:07 PM

Anyone have a link to that Harbor Freight transmission jack?

I saw this one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=39178

Was the $40 the sale price? That's not badf for having another whole jack that I can use for various stuff.

They also sell a transmission adapter for their floor jacks. I wonder how well that works.

With the threaded rod method do you just put two rods on the ends of the engine mount bar and let the transmission end hang?

Posted by: redshift Nov 24 2003, 01:08 PM

You crack me up!




M

Posted by: fiid Nov 24 2003, 01:39 PM

I saw the Motorcycle unit. I liked the look of it, but didn't go for it.

I have a fork truck pallet with 4 heavy duty castors on it (cheapies from the local ace). I use the pelican method, with 2 SUV trolley jacks I bought from Sears.

The pallet is high enough that you can put the engine on stands by yourself by just ratcheting up one side, then the other, then the tranny, and then you pull the pallet out.
The extra height does mean you need to get the car stuck up in the air like a dog's dick before you can get the engine out - hence the SUV jacks.

The only problem - as brad points out - is the driveshafts. they WILL GET IN THE WAY. I have rested the weigh of the car on them before, without realising it. I didn't like that. They do still work though.

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 24 2003, 02:03 PM

Yep, but support the trans with a floor jack and lower it down as the engine bar comes down to keep the drivetrain level. Be sure to space the ramps out far enough to allow you to slide the engine bar out from under the car so it will clear the ramps.

Posted by: airsix Nov 24 2003, 02:48 PM

$70!!! Yikes. That's the jack I bought, but I KNOW it was less than $45. For $70 I'd get the ATV jack like JP showed.

-Ben

Posted by: jkeyzer Nov 24 2003, 02:59 PM

There are a lot of things I only buy from Harbor Freight when they go on sale... Their sale prices are usually very good, and you just have to wait around until what you want is 30-50% off.

Posted by: airsix Nov 24 2003, 05:29 PM

Yep, just got a metal band-saw that way. Friend said they were $160. I checked - they were $200. He said wait. Only had to wait 2 weeks. Got it for $160.

-Ben

Posted by: URY914 Nov 24 2003, 06:12 PM

The aluminum floor jacks are on sale for $139.00 reg. $179.00

What a deal. See thier website.

Paul

Posted by: URY914 Nov 24 2003, 06:19 PM

And the ATV lift is on sale for $99.00



Paul