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Posted by: jgullock Feb 22 2007, 10:47 AM

Long time lurker finally sacking up to ask a question. Here’s the deal – have a 73 914 with a Renegade conversion package (9 inch clutch upgrade) with about 1,000 miles on it. Was driving one day and I noticed the clutch pedal wasn’t working like it was supposed to, had the broken clutch tube symptom. Happened all of a sudden like too. Drilled some holes at the front tube mount point and checked the tube while pushing in the clutch– it was O.K., didn’t move at all. Anyways, I tack welded it through the holes while I was there. From what I’ve found on the site your supposed to have a little bit of slop at the pedal before the cable even engages and applies force to the throwout bearing arm correct? If I set it up like this, with the clutch pedal all the way to the floor I can feel the pressure plate trying to grab the disc – not quite completely releasing. The only way I get this thing to shift smoothly is to have tension in the cable but am I screwing up the throwout bearing and/or pressure plate fingers? Is it normal for this aftermarked clutch setup to have tension in it? Is the cable bad (Terry cable) and acting like a big spring (stretching)? Or perhaps is the pressure plate setup not matched to the travel the throwout bearing provides? WTF??? Any input is appreciated.

Thank you.

You friend, Johnny G.

P.S. - I ordered a GEMO cable from GPR as a backup and am thinking of putting it in.

Posted by: jimkelly Feb 22 2007, 11:04 AM

did you remove the washers behind the TOB clutch fork pivot ball ??

if not - you may need to.

you should have 1/4 inch or so of looseness/slop on the fork movement as to not let the TOB ride on the pressure plate - i think.

jim

Posted by: aircooledboy Feb 22 2007, 01:28 PM

I have the same set up as you, and had the same problem, with the same concerns.

In the end, I settled on having the cable as loose a possible, while still getting full release. The means having a little tension on the cable, and the throw out making light contact with the p plate fingers. Renegade says that's OK, and in about 15k miles, I haven't had any problems yet.

Posted by: r_towle Feb 22 2007, 01:45 PM

It seems to me that if you had a longer ball/pivot..you would be able to release the clutch correctly.

Or, you need a Pressure plate with the correct back spacing grind, do the distance from the pressure plate mounting point, and the lower disk face area would be either more or less than it is now.

Seems both of these solutions are easy enough to try...and should have been figured out by Rich Johnson, Renegade, or Kennedy at some point in time.

Riding the throw out bearing is not a valid solution. That is just plain bad advise.
Not from Aircooledboy, but from Renegade...jeez, if these guys are the pros, step up wit a professional solution...not this...

regrinding the flywheel to proper dimensions is a good solution
A longer ball/pivot is also a good solution.
A custom clutch fork is also a good solution.
Bending the clutch fork (heat and bend) is also a valid solution.

Rich

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 22 2007, 09:17 PM

Part of the "free play" is the amount the pedal moves when you pull upward on it. Remember, the pedal itself is sprung downward--if the cable breaks, the pedal goes all the way to the floor. So pull up on the pedal to measure free play.

--DD

Posted by: John Feb 22 2007, 10:33 PM

I reread your post a couple of times. Are you saying that the clutch pedal used to feel and act fine and suddenly while driving it changed? Did you run over anything when you noticed the clutch acting strangely?

I'm wondering if you may have bent the release arm slightly which could cause something like this.

just a thought.

Posted by: Crazyhippy Feb 22 2007, 10:43 PM

How about the back half of the clutch tube?

I've never had this problem w/ renegades stuff. Is everything the same generation, or were parts pieced together?

Posted by: jgullock Feb 23 2007, 06:29 AM

John - I reread your post a couple of times. Are you saying that the clutch pedal used to feel and act fine and suddenly while driving it changed? Did you run over anything when you noticed the clutch acting strangely?

I'm wondering if you may have bent the release arm slightly which could cause something like this.

Yup. I think my cable is gonna go. I've heard of a few bad cables from Terry. My cluch arm is O.K. though.

Crazyhippy - How about the back half of the clutch tube?

I've never had this problem w/ renegades stuff. Is everything the same generation, or were parts pieced together?

Back tube half was also O.K. Got underneath and had the ole lady pump the cluch pedal. No tube movement. Got the whole package at the same time.

I think I found a solution. A clutch throw extender - attaches to the pedal end connection of the clutch cable and effectively gives you more cable travel due to the increased radius of the pedal arm. Stumbled on it during one of my several searches last night. Never heard about it before. To bad freaking Renegade doesn't tell folks about these problems and solutions when you buy their products.

Thanks for the many inputs!

Posted by: slothness Feb 23 2007, 03:29 PM

but the clutch throw extender is supposedly not needed with a 9" clutch upgrade...

From their website:
"$40 CLUTCH THROW EXTENDER: Fabricated from steel. Gives greater travel to pressure plate. Enables proper clutch operation. (Not needed with 9" clutch upgrade...) "

Posted by: jimkelly Feb 23 2007, 04:52 PM

renegade has pissed a person or two off in the past but to say they are holding back on info that would make their customers happy - i would not agree - they are a good company, good products, good prices. YMMV : )

Posted by: jgullock Feb 23 2007, 06:38 PM

I guess that 9" statement is wrong due to the problems with my setup.

Posted by: jgullock Feb 23 2007, 06:45 PM

From my personal experience with them so far I can't say I'm impressed.

Posted by: John Feb 23 2007, 09:47 PM

I hate this thought, but it may hold water...

There is a plastic insert in the clutch release arm that rides on the ball. If that part has disintegrated for some reason, it would suddenly not give you enough clutch travel.

This could be the source of your problem as it would change the pivot point of the clutch release arm. I don't know of a way to check this without pulling the transmission though.

Anyone else have any thoughts along these lines?


I would avoid a clutch throw extender as it would put that much more stress on the shear pin (rolled pin) holding the clutch pedal to the clutch shaft. While I have not had a factory rolled pin shear, I have had after-market ones (2 of them) shear.

just another thought

Posted by: jgullock Feb 24 2007, 09:21 AM

John F. - That's a good point. I'll have to check that when I pull the tranny.

Pull the tranny you say? After further investigation it seems I may have a problem - I may not have been given the 9" upgrade that I paid for. After looking at the pics posted on their site the standard clutch Renegade offers has multiple black fingers that contact the throw out bearing while I beleive the 9" has three (if I'm full of crap here please let me know). Mine has the "multiple black fingers" even though I paid $325 to not have "multiple black fingers". I emailed Renegade and eagerly await their response.

Posted by: aircooledboy Feb 24 2007, 09:49 AM

No, I 'm pretty sure you are ok there. Here is a picture of my old 9" p plate. The new one is the same, just painted black. (They come from KEP BTW)



Attached image(s)

Posted by: jgullock Feb 24 2007, 01:19 PM

O.K. I'll buy that. What about the throw length problem? The travel at the pedal translates to a certain throw at the outside of the clutch lever which translates to a shorter throw on the inner part of the clutch lever. If I have to use an extender to get more throw how can it be a 9" plate? Everything I read says I shouldn't need one for a 9" but it seems from the symptoms I do. I've also read about shimming the ball and bending the arm but unless I either increase my throw at the pedal or move the pivot point of the clutch lever (shorten the outside portion) I'm not sure what else will work. Don't think moving things axially (front/rear) would increase the throw. Hell with it...I'm gonna start drinkin'.

Posted by: bondo Feb 24 2007, 01:29 PM

Have you rebuilt the pedal cluster with the weltmeister kit? If so, did you use the roll pin that came with it? They have a tendency to break, allowing the pedal assembly to pivot on the shaft a little bit, reducing the available throw. I had it happen on one with a stock clutch, I imagine a high performance clutch would break it faster.

If you haven't rebuilt your pedal cluster, the plastic bushings may have disintegrated, reducing the throw. Rebuild it with bronze bushings, but use a Porsche roll pin.

Posted by: Crazyhippy Feb 24 2007, 03:25 PM

The fact that it worked fine before says something broke... Could be (among many things) the plastic pivot for the clutch fork (in the bellhousing), the cable (@ the reversing wheel usually), the roll pin @ the pedal cluster.... If it worked before, you dont need to extend the clutch throw.

BJH

Posted by: jgullock Feb 24 2007, 06:08 PM

It worked before with no slack at the pedal and a lot of pre-load on the throwout bearing. It has never worked with 1/2 inch freeplay at the pedal.