AA just ran well in excess of $1,000 over budget on my 914. I dont dispute the necessity of the work or the pricing of the work. However, they went way too far when I told them to what my budget was. The official company line is this was a "misunderstanding".
In all candor, Shon and Daniel in the shop were great to work with. Shon got put in the middle between George and I when George suddenly dropped the problem on his lap.
AA fooled me once on bad customer service. Now they fooled me twice. Shame on me for trusting them. Never again!
To keep a potential flame war off the site, PM me if you're interested in the story.
Konrad
Maybe it was a misunderstanding but sometimes the path from A-Z is costly. Ask yourself this Could the work you whent in for have been done without the extras? Where you imformed that the repairs where going to cost more than the org, est,?
I dont need a reply back on this I just give you something to think about. The Dr has alot on the line here I ? if he would run the risk of getting a post like this without making ever effort to make you happy. If so so be it. I am in Calif, Atlanta is a long way to go for 914 repairs. Good luck on this.
Let me give you the story from the bodymans side of things. Car comes in, customer wants to spend $5000.00 on said car but wants a "nice driver' to get said car to "nice driver" condition I know it needs $8000.00 werth of time and materials. I SHOULD give an ESTIMATE. An ESTIMATYE is an ESTIMATE of what I THINK I can do the car for. Not a GAURANTEE. If in fact you were given a gaurantee or it was specifically stated absolutely not to go over said $$ amount you have a right to gripe. BUT what would you be saying if they had stopped at your dollar amount and the car still needed paint?? Or if the car was painted but the underlying body werk looked like ....lets say.....Anna Nicoles thighs??
I donot know your circumstances but everyone here needs to remember that higher end shops DO NOT want to do the $4000.00 restorations because it makes them look less than capable. If you want a $4000.00 resto go to Macco and then bitch about how crappy it looks. If your already into AA for $7000.00+ and you get an extra $1000.00 on your bill be happy to know the job was done right and that you AND AA can be proud of your car.
You get what ou pay for.
I think one's expectations should be to pay the money - but if you made it clear that the budget was X - then as soon as the bill hits X+1 - you should get a phone call (phone calls aren't very expensive, even for a mechanic/body shop) saying your bill is over the budget: what do you want to do? It's just good customer service.
Unfortunately - anyone who is going to do the job right has enough business that they don't have to have good customer service in order to survive.
I defenitley understand that good work cost money, often more than the original estimate. If I had a million $$$ I would let them go ahead and do whatever needs to be done. However, bringing in a car into the shop doesnt give them free reign to do any and everything to the car regardless of what the budget is set at. If I want to pay X amount of dollars, I realise I'll get X dollars amount of work. Thats fine, some things just need to be put off until the next time around.
If I get an estimate, I expect a 10-20% overrun, but not 100% +. If there is that much extra work to be done, a few minutes for a candid phone call is well worth the hit to reputation that a shop will run into if the work is done regardless.
Konrad
I'd be the first person to stand in line NOT to defend AA or George, but depending on the scope of the project it's very easy to exceed any budget. If you had a guarantee, that's another story, or if you wanted a heads up when it looked like it was going to be more than agreed and you didn't get the heads up, then OK you've got a beef.
What you are saying now is your estimate was $1,000 and the bill was $2,000. That is 100% of $1,000
That is not right by any body shop or repair estimate so there must be a long story and a mistake. So lets hear it!
Bob
OK: I had a rocker arm stud break on me and eventually needed the half stuck in the head drilled out. George quoted me $400 to remove the engine, drill out the bolt, and re-assemble everything. I figured the total cost might be $5-600 by the time it was all done.
George then gave me a call to tell me that every thing was finished, but they had seen some problem areas that needed to be addressed. george said it would take some "tweaks" to get it in perfect running order and it should cast $2,000 to do everything. I thought he ment $2k inclusive of the engine work. But none-the-less I told him "do what you need to get it running, but $2k is way out of my price range."
Total bill- $3175.00 including tax. Things done include replace CV joints, replace wheel bearing, replace shifter bushings, replace muffler bracket, and a few others.
* The work needed to be done and the total price was fair for the work done. However, I had no intention of dropping more than $1500 total. I wasnt explicit about it but "go nowhere near $2k, I thought would cover things.
Never again!
Konrad
if it really is 100% over estimate and they did the work without your consent, I would guess there are some laws in Georgia to deal with that.
We ran into the same situation in new york once and all it took was some research into the laws and a phone call and it was resolved. I believe if the overruns are that large a percentage it can be considered a form of usery (sp?)
EDIT: You posted while I was writing...
That would have pissed me off.
3.1k for that?
Im sure you would have done all that other stuff yourself. Drilling and tapping a engine stud (they probably used a reverse drill bit and took it out in about 5 mins.)
Im going to take a wild venture and guess that 2 guys spent 4 hours doing everything.
Oh btw, the parts were around 400-800 YOUR cost.. depending on how many cv's they replaced.
What probably took the longest was taking the trailing arms off, (since the cv's were out) pressing the bearing out, clean it a little, paint it, press a new bearing in, reassemble.
Ahh. im just making you more mad..
At least they did all the things that really bring a car back to life.. wait, why didnt they do the bushings?? hmm oh ya, those are actually hard to install..
To make these cars correct it can cost a lot of money. Some shops call over and over to update you on you running total so this does not happen. They did not but you did say—
“I told him "do what you need to get it running, but
Konrad ------ As Scotty pointed out.
A guess a lot of AA customers must work like that. And just give the word fix it and trust them. (1) You want a shop that you trust (2) you want to make a lot of money to fix your car
Sorry you are in this spot.
Bob
I probably should have given them a more definite cut off, but I did say that $2k was way too much. I just wish they had respected that.
Konrad
I don't know what legal restrictions are on repair shops out where AA is, but here if you're within an estimate/budget and you approach complications or are projected to exceed a price previously agreed on, you gotta inform the owner and get approval.
At least, that's how the place I work at runs.
Why do you have a 914 and pay someone else to work on it?
Do you think they are supposed to run or something?
Now that it is done- and by an actual business, get explicit warranty info to pin up on the wall in case something goes bad. That is something I never have....
Maybe George will accept a no interest payment scheme to stretch the impact out.
Don't you hate when you delete a big long post. I don't know your What happened in your case. But I can tell you that body work is not like mechanical work. There are often problems with hidden rust damage and poor repairs that are hidden under the paint. There is nothing worse than completing a car on budget by compermising the repair quality. As a shop you are comitting business suicide. It's always fine with the owner when he's at the shop picking up the car. But then he goes to the local hang out and everyone see's the imperfection first. And guess what... the budget conversation never comes up.
I have the perfect example. I have a car in the car in my garage now. The owner was fully prepared to spend near $ 10,000.00 to fix an improper repair done back in the 70's. As I stripped the car I discovered way more damage than was possible to see before I started. I am now faced with removing the complete engine, transmission and front suspension to repair about 16 additional hrs of someone elses work. Should I not say anything and have my friend waste $ 10,000.00?
Some things can't be helped. I think AA should have discussed this with you first but I doubt you would have not wanted the car don't right.
In this state you can not increase an estimate more than 10% without written consent. If the work was truly needed and you would have found a way to come up with the money, work it out. It's only money, you'll make more. Enjoy your car.
I am a General Contractor in MD (bitch of a state to work in BTW) I ALWAYS say to the customer at time of estimate that "more may be ness" but I always call with a price and get confirmation B4 I start addl work....just good practice.
I will not let anyone work on mine except for alignments and tires......just a cheap SOB that knows I can do it too and for le$$......+ its hard to trust shops these days....good luck
I really can't afford it either...hell I've got and easy 20K in mine and I am not done.......Sh!t
Josh
Josh, Im the same way.
The only thing I'll let someone do is the tires (wich I loose in a truck), alignment, and a dyno tune (sbc's.... so much knowlege at the dyno.. those guys know there sbc stuff..)
I didn't work in a body shop, but when I worked in a repair facility, it was customary to give the customer a written estimate at the time the vehicle was dropped off. If the repair was found to exceed this estimate (it was more extensive than estimated), the customer was notified by telephone of what additional repairs were required. The customer had the say whether these additional repairs were made or not.
I know that this is not apples to apples, but it is how that shop did business.
As another reference, my current employer provides custom equipment and custom integrated industrial systems. We quote a job with a fixed quote. If the customer makes no changes and agreed to items do not change, we provide the system as promised (regardless if we go over budget). If the customer changes the scope of work, we provide them with a change order.
Was this work done according to a fixed quote? If so, you may have reason to complain. If it was done with a written estimate, you should have been notified when the scope of the project was deemed to exceed that of the original written estimate. If you were not notified, you probably have a reason to complain.
That's all I have to say about that.
just my $0.02
"Knowledge is good"
When you want work done regardless of body, engine, etc.... you need to ask yourself if there are any unknowns... often there will be. With an engine, there's always worn parts, with a body, there's always rust, repairs, bolts that won't come off, etc.
That said, most shops will call you and stop the work when they find something that will up the price. Having a $1K surprise on your bill after the fact is not what I would consider acceptable.
A good shop communicates well.
AA?
from AA? Really? nahhh...
they should have called you.
Classic case of getting totally ripped off. I feel sorry for you. I hope everyone who is reading this will pay attention.
First time I took my car to a shop they told me it was a two day job to remove the engine and it'll cost $750 to get it out. I ran away and learned how to do it myself.
I admire AA's willingness to go extensive with the repairs on your car... But they should've contacted you. Even the crummy shop I had my car at (who couldn't tell hydraulic lifters from solid) called me when things were going over estimate.
I sense it would be smarter for ME to hear both sides.
I don't sniff I have read the whole story here. Something sounds like it's missing.
It's time to relax and wait for more facts and the perceptions of those facts.
Clayton
I can sympathize w/ you & at the same time I can't. I too did a "quick fix" at AA & my final price was nowhere near what the quick fix was supposed to cost. However, I stayed in close personal contact w/ George & no one else on the entire matter. He did nothing without my OK. Every time something came up I made him explain it to me & he realized I understood him. I was a total pain in the ass, for 356 days straight & still am to this day. I'm a retailers worst nightmare- an educated novice. Being an A/V engineer & playing w/ Dads' 914 since I was 11 has made me the way I am. Also, it was my Dads' LE, I wanted it done right & George knew it & I made sure he did. My only complaint, & I have never told George this, was the stickers on the sides. I now have 2 different new sets in boxes & will fix them myself one day. Big deal, they're stickers. He's in Atlanta & I'm in DC so that settles that.
I now have a new project, my '70 6 & will be doing most of the work on it myself. The reasons for this are because I enjoy it, I'm cheaper than AA & I don't care how good you are, I'm supervising. Hard to do unless you're there & I'm sure if George watched me work he'd offer me a job. I ain't movin to Georgia, I'm a Virginia boy.
Good luck & all I can say is you should talk w/ him personally.
Wow a lot has been posted since I last checked the club site!!!! Spent the whole weekend arranging the pictures and descriptions for our great new 914 catalog that will be mass mailed.
I am going to have Sean and Dan post on my behalf as since Conrad chose to vent, and we appreciate that, that they can speak as well. After that I will follow up. Fair enough????
I love happy endings...
Last summer my girlfriend dropped her car off at Tires Plus to get her tires rotated and she ended up getting new tie rods and some other stuff, and all of a sudden they wanted like $450!
She pulled the crying helpless girl routine and got away with paying like $300, but it was still pretty un-cool.
Sorry, but I don't buy into the "buyer/customer beware" or "you'll know better next time" disclaimer by those in the business. Any REPUTABLE shop will treat their customers ethically and communicate with them to where BOTH parties are clear on the terms and conditions, or extra work required WHEN required. A reputable business will step forward and make clear to the customer the conditions by which the scope of the work be addressed, rather than defer the questioning to the customer. Keep in mind, the customer is not normally the expert, so the business has the fundamental responsibility of advising them thoroughly (and not simply look at it as a cash opportunity). Conduct you business otherwise, and your reputation and growth will suffer. Rant over.........
Andys
with Andys...
This is not a reflection on either as the old unwritten law rule, let the seller/buyer beware.
People of my generation had to learn the hard way and insist that everything related to a repair or service, be in writing. Why. Because there was dishonest people on both sides of the done deals. This means about anything, not just automobiles.
Once that became the norm, like it is in the defacto business world of today, with all the fine print and legal mumbo jumbo ( not shade tree), an initialed acknowledgement is normally required to be a binding document.
It is sad to say, the days of the gentleman agreement with a handshake or their word as a bond are mostly past history.
Always insist if there are changes to any documents you put your signature on, such as a service or repair order, it must be approved fully by you and initialed by both parties to keep them both honest and above false promises, decit or fraud.
Who is right? Whichever the signed and initialed additionals agreement fully verifies.
BTW, I would never have a problem with AA or anyone else about doing any work. I would practice what I wrote above and you should too.
WWZD?
Making estimates in the wporld of repairing 30+ year old cars and engines is a nightmare waiting to happen...
Variables are abundant and they cost everyone!
Here is Mr. Zieglers note that accompanied the car. Please note that Konrad says "needs to be rotated and brought back into running condition with care"
here is our repair order (excuse the messy hand written example we are so far behind in the repair department that we are not using our computer generated invoices! (also for you scrutinizers, the 12 oil is special 80/90 and by the pint (not engine oil!!!!)
Here is Sean's version of the story, along with my interjections:
To preface Sean and Dan's reply, Konrad has a very nice 1971 willow green 914 that is very straight rustfree and a great candidate for a full restoration. We probably love it more than he does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This issue should have been a non issue as there was some communication breakdown somewhere, and we can only tell it as it is. As we all know 914s these days need more restoration than repair so it is not a simple thing to tell someone: "Yes water pump replacement on your 2003 Ford is 169.53 parts and labor" Every repair must be taken on its own case by case basis and when one has a car towed in and inoperable, and wants to make it operable, the repair shop must analyze the scope of the work, but more importantly address the core issues one by one a penny at a time until able to make the vehicle run, and then hone in on the specifics to make the vehicle operate reliably. Konrad's car was the typical case, a 35 year old 914 that we had not seen before and that had not been running in awhile, had not been serviced properly in the past, and that the customer had given up on making it run, and finally had it towed to a place that would take the time and patience to bring it back from the grave (so to speak)
Konrad's dad first called me saying that his son had tried to work on his car, could not get it running and really did not know what he was doing, and could we help. The current problem was a bad rocker arm stud, and he asked how much it would cost to tap and replace it. I explained over the phone that if we could access it from the outside, around 400 Including parts and revalve adjust, which would cover us removing the trailing arm and dropping down the engine to access.
The car showed up here several days following and alas when the driver dropped it the drivers window immediately fell down! This was the signal of things to come. Below is the narrative of Sean and Dan (I will interject if appropriate):
"Konrad Ziegler brought his car to us and told us he had not driven the car in six months but it had been in great driving order with the exception of a nasty engine noise.
He explained that he knew the car had a broken rocker stud. That being the case George told Konrad that if the engine was to stay in the car the bill could be as little as $400.00. We were surprised to find that when we went to push the car into the shop it was stuck in second gear because the bushings were broken, missing, and worn...not to mention that the shift console, first reverse bias had broken free and the plate had to be rewelded (I must say that we did not charge for this operation on his bill)
After the six of us pushed the car in and pulled the valve cover we could see that Mr. Z had attempted to drill out the stud but to no avail. This made what could have been a very simple procedure, vastly more complicated. Upon closer inspection, we found the cause of the problem: the rocker assemblies were all being held in place with lock washers and nyloc nuts of the wrong thread pitch, and the rocker assemblies were actually installed out of sequence, intakes on exhaust and vice versa. We replaced, retapped, and readjusted all.
Because of the complications, the engine had to be pulled and of course the cost naturally went up. This had been previously established as a possibility with Konrad's dad before the car was dropped off and the line of communication here, seemed to be direct.
While the engine was out we found that a large pair of needle nosed pliers had been in the fan for quite some time (probably some of the noise that Mr Ziegler had described). this of course had broken about half of the cooling fan blades. We then added the cost of a used fan to a list being compiled for round two.
The round two list consisted of cv axle repack, front wheel bearings (about to fall off the car) a leaking left front caliper, shifter bushings, the previously mentioned cooling fan, the alternator belt, the muffler bracket (missing) and the engine mounts. (Mr Z had included two rear 911 mounts to install for the transmission mounts, but we had previously determined that they were ok and he did not need them, but they could be used to replace the engine mounts as one was indeed broken)
At this time Mr Z. was called and told what had been done what he had spent and what was needed to get the car into a drivable state "with care" as stated in his letter. As I understand, the conversation between George and Konrad outlined that Mr. Z didn't have a lot of money and was pushing his budget but understood that the work needed to be done and was willing to spend a "little more." "
Let me (George) interject here. I had a discussion with Konrad here and informed him that we would have to spend about 2500 here to repair all of these things and he acknowleged that figure. I also told him that we of course could spend a lot more including a thorough major service to make the car reliable. He at that time questioned why the cv joints needed to be repacked as he had a fairly recent receipt showing that they had been replaced. My mistake is that I found out when Dan had removed cleaned and examined the cv joints that they were indeed WORN OUT and needed immediate replacement to get the car operable. I took it upon myself to authorize Dan to replace the axles with rebuilt ones as repacking was hopeless. I called Konrad to come out and see the axles for himself which he did, and he saw and acknowledged the rest of the work approved on the phone to get the car operable.
I think that in Konrad's own words, "George then gave me a call to say that everything was finished but had seen some problem areas that needed to be addressed. George told me that it would take some "tweeks" to get it in perfect running order, and it should cost 2000 to do everything. I thought that he meant 2000 dollars inclusive of the engine work, but none the less I told him "do what you need to get it running, but 2000 is way out of my price range."
To return to Sean and Dan's narrative:
"Mr Ziegler even came by once the engine was back in the car and Dan explained in great detail what had been done and what he was doing.
That was Friday. On Monday, Mr. Z. was called and given his total of 3175.52 A total that he disputed. So I went over every part and every hour of labor with him after faxing him a copy of the work order.
Now convinced of the total he argued that he had not agreed to the amount of work that was done and said he had only agreed to 2000.00 worth of work.
He then made it a point to tell me he was an attorney and could "make things very rough for me". I also told Konrad that we would be happy to remove parts from his car (specifically the previously unapproved rebuilt cv axles plus any other parts GH) until we could reach a predetermined budget starting with the cvs. which made up a large portion of the post estimate work. At this time he suggested that I "eat" the $3000.00 plus bill and simply buy the car from him for $15,000.00 (fifteen thousand dollars). As I hate to defame someone's character, Mr Ziegler seemed to me to be overly aggressive and quite dishonest."
(these are Sean's observations and not mine!!!!!!!!!! GH)
" I have abbreviated the extent and depth of the discussion and negotiation. "The simple fact that he said the car was driving just fine six months ago tells me that he knew he was setting us up to get work done for free. In the end he succeeded, I had to do a lot of other "tweeking" to get the car to run. I told him among other things, that I had done my best to adjust the shift rod to regain command of all of the gears, but first gear was entirely gone! He told me this was a fact he had been well aware of and had failed to mention.
The final thing that I think is at the crux of this dispute is that Mr, Ziegler produced a repair work order from another shop showing that they had replaced the cv joints and added one quart of ANTIFREEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
(wouldn't you too be leery about taking your car to the next repair shop after seeing a bill like this????? GH)
Thank you for the narrative Sean. Dan, Sean, and Konrad, are all young guys and often times misunderstanding leads to tempers getting out of hand about something that could be easily be solved. I admire all of our young staff here for ALWAYS remaining cool headed and everyone here treats every customer with respect and courtesy. They will continue to do so, and one can always be assured of a quality repair/restoration here for a very fair price, and we will tell you financially always what you are getting yourself into with these old cars!!!!!!!!
And finally here is a list of other things we noted about this 914
EN 914 ZIEGLER
· Front tie rods and ball joints need to be replaced
· Front drivers caliper leaking (we rebuilt)
· Lug nuts are very loose (we tighened!)
· Rack and pinion cover bent
· Heater control hose is off (we reinstalled)
· Passenger Rocker panel cracked
· Broken engine mounts (we replaced)
· Fuel pump boot missing, gas leaking at injector line (we replaced the injector line
· Shift rod boots missing, shift bushings are bad, needs adjustment (we replaced the bushings and rewelded the shifter base where it was broken
· Rear muffler bracket missing (we replaced)
· Swing arm is loose
· Clutch tube cracked at the firewall and probably at the front, no clutch cable boot installed
· Reverse light switch boot missing
· Starter is loose (we tightened)
· E-brake cable boots missing/ stuck cables and handle (does not work!) has bolts installed instead of pins at the calipers
· Some passenger engine shelf rust
· Shifter bushing “at firewall” cracked in half (we replaced
· Heater hose clamps missing
· CV joints dry, may need replacing were totally shot! (We replaced with rebuilt units)
· Low transmission fluid (we changed the fluid)
· Dash pad shrunk/ cracked dash
· Missing seat belt bolt covers (plastic)
· Seat rails in need of lubrication
· Engine lid cable is missing the cable release back pad plastic washer
· Missing drivers door panel arm rest / pocket (off)
· Battery dead (we charged and checked the charging system
· Back pad light wiring is not making good connection
· Latches in need of lubrication
· Engine lid drain pan off
· 914 badges missing backing
· Targa top latches (in trunk) broken (4 of 4)
· Both trunk (rear) seals cracked and brittle
· Cracked drivers tailligh
· Needs air filter cleanup and relubrication water in airbox (needs cleaned)
· Engine lid seal missing
· Relay board cover cracked
· Bad trunk hinge cup repair (passenger is cracked
· Cracked/ripped intake boot (we repaired as the new part is NLA)
We have been in business now for over 29 years and pride ourselves in knowing our way around a 914. We are not out to take advantage of anyone. Konrad is welcome back any time to continue his restoration and get the other things done as his budget allows. All of our work is fully guaranteed and we stand behing it. We will leave no one out in the cold who owns a 914
You need to delete this crap about your girlfriend's car. This is begining to sound like last weeks's Anna Nicole Smith's trial. This story doesn't need any added drama. Try to stay on topic here.
Full edit.
Changed my opinion and delete it fully.
I am entitled to make a mistake in my POV sometimes. I did.
After reading the repair bill and statement in entirety, I edit and add this.
When I see the bills for the parts and repairs, I do wonder why it was so expensive for what was done from the hand written note. Basically I did not see anything that said ok from Konrad to do all the other things that were done.
While my opinion about the charges the customer will have to pay to get his 914 back is just one person's opinion, I think the end results were gouging and can't really believe there is a line of customer's waiting to get , what ever that dirty word is, some will have to sub in here.
I always tell it like I see it. Doesn't mean I am right or wrong. It just reflects that there are some things you took as truth and then look again and see it wasn't necessarily truth on the later POV. There is truth we always need to see even if it means looking again and admit being wrong.
To the Dr at AA let me be the first to say I am Sorry that you have to go though like this. I as you love the 914 and all the people that support it. Your efforts to give the 914 owners a source for parts and information is very much appreciated by many I am sure you know that.
The fact that you have been here on this board to help other keep there cars going with your schedule show your concerns within the community.
Just a couple of thoughts
There is a HUGE difference between someone working on thier own car, or friend's car's as a part time gig, compared to a business like AA. The Dr. and crew do this for a living, and the prices they charge reflect, insurance, taxes, overhead, profit, etc. If you want it done for less, do it yourself.
Seems to be two things going on here: 1) if the was properly authorized and 2) the value of the work.
And it is a shame that this was made public. Sorta reminds me of a paint job last year.
Konrad are you really a lawyer?
am i reading this right?? konrad is a lawyer!! if so HE already knows he signed off on the work!! if that is the case then he doesn't have a leg to stand on!!! i'm a contractor; and as a professional when i'm hired by you on some jobs WE throw in little things for free. when a customer says DO it that is exactly what they get .. if i see something that needs to be addressed i do it.. i see this as a way for konrad to try to get a better deal ....... 2500 is NOTHING on a 30+ year old car...just ASK anyone here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! george is right on this matter as I SEE it... so THIS time AA wins ......... NEXT CASE
If you have a dispute with someone who frequents this or any other 914 website.Then why do you not try to work it out with them on a one to one basis. I don't bring my problems that I have with a customer here. What is it going to solve. It is going to make both parties concerned look foolish and immature.
It is not the right place to air these greivances. It never will be. Learn from the mistakes of others.
CCLIN914NATION
I see a HUGE difference between making a car that hasn't run in 6 months running, and starting a restoration. I suppose AA is more of a resto house than a repair house, so Konrad should have known better, but this is BS. The Paperwork w/ Konrads signature says "make the motor run" never mentions CV's, FRT wheel bearings, brake caliper leak, cooling fan, trans fluid, shifter bushings.....
According to the paperwork, AA fucked up big time. What we dont know is what was ACTUALLY said on the phone.
AA doesn't have the best track record here, but Konrad posting this shows his intentions as being less than informative... Settle this the old fashioned way.... 6 shooters @ high noon!
BJH
Whatever - let the buyer beware, of course, but someone from the repair shop perspective maybe can tell us why the shop doesn't just take two seconds to get the owner's signature or confirming e-mail on a new work order BEFORE starting the work if they even smell a dispute waiting to happen. The obligation should go both ways, wouldn't you think?
I know, I know, using a fax or e-mail is a hassle (seriously, my cousin has his own shop and can't figure out either one, even if he had the time), but if this is the potential grievance you will face, seems worth the time.
Maybe I'm just too cautious in my line of work (I'm a lawyer, too).
Mike (in Portland)
6 things occur to ME.
1: Pricing of the work order.
The Pricing reflected in the work order from AA is in line with my geographic area.
I live in SoCal. If I lived in lower priced economic area. The pricing may well look out of line. Labor rates are very dependent on the economy of the area.
The original Author also agrees the repair work was fairly priced.
2: Victim threads are usually suspect for ME. Period.
3: I have a serious problem if either party in question, deletes or edits their posts.
If I am not mistaken. There are have been edits since I first read this thread. Anyone have a read on this? Please correct me if I am wrong.
4: What dos the original author want from AA?
Please spell it out.
5: I always find it interesting when neither party owns any mistakes.
Simply because it's impossible. Else there would be no problem.
6: What is it going to take to get this resolved? If it is at all possible?
I still have this nagging gut feeling that there is something missing from this story.
Clayton Clark
Right now my car is being worked on at HPH. I got 2 calls today from Larry. He is keeping me very informed of what he is doing and how much it is going to cost. I'm feeling pretty comfortable that I am not going to be surprized. It's comunication.
Bottom Line:
1. The work needed to be done
2. The price was fair for the work done
BUT
3. I HAD NO INTENTION OF TAKING THE PROJECT THIS FAR AT THIS TIME
4. I THOUGHT "GO NO WHERE NEAR $2K WAS CLEAR"
5. I HAVE PAID GEORGE IN FULL
6. I AM UNHAPPY ABOUT THE LACK OF INFORMATION BEFORE SUCH A TOTAL WAS REACHED
7. I AM UNHAPPY ABOUT THE QUALITY OF CUSTOMER SERVICE I RECEIVED
8. RIGHT WRONG OR INDIFFERENT, AA HAS LOST A CUSTOMER OVER THIS
Konrad
You know what Konrad I am tired of this. I looked at your other posts and evidently you have bashed AA before so why take it to them if you didn't like them then. If your looking for something to complain abiout you usally can find it. From what I see sitting on the sidelines you gave the OK to get it running as a daily driver. That meant fixing problems that would be for driveablity and SAFETY. You failed to mention here that the motor was a modifed bus motor(as metioned in other posts about it). and that the reason it had sat six months was that you may have started the repairs yourself in Aug(read in previous posts). If you paid the amount and have a running car you should consider yourself lucky. I have a project I have started and not sure where the money is going to come from.
Bottom line if you had misgivings about AA why use them in the first place.
and don't bring something to a public forum that you have'nt tried to work out w/ the business first. You paid so you accept the finacial burden now accept the fact that you may be wrong and misinterpted what was said to you.
edit: Konard was a 3rd year law student in spring of 2006 not sure how long you have to go to be a lawyer but I do know you have to pass the bar first.
Isn't the internet great.
Also Dad signed the WO.
C'mon..... let's see it
Thanks for the thread
The parts look resonable. The labor is what killed you. According to the photo copy, they got you for 12 hours of labor (1000.00) just on the original rocker arm stud issue.
On my first glance, the 4 hours of labor on the "rebuilt" axles seemed rediculous. However, unlike a Midas type place that stocks rebuilt axel assemblies, I am guessing AA rebuilds these as needed and on your dime, verses having them ready to go and on the shelf.
I think the situation is really too bad. As many problems as I have had with AA, the billing looks legit (the 12 hours on the rocker stud does seem a bit rough...).
But I also agree, you just spent more than some on this list have spent on a perfectly fine/running car.
In fact, you spent the same amount that I hope to spend on a decent used 2.4 6cyl.
I dont care what your poison is - if it has a motor and is old, it is not cheap to maintain.
At this point, I must say that the real problem was poor communication on both sides.
I have run both bodyshops and mechanical shops, and while they are very different because of the insurance company's involvement, proper communication is absolutely vital in either case.
In Ca, the shop is responsible for making sure that the customer UNDERSTANDS what is being done and how much it will cost. If there's any disagreement, the benefit of the doubt usually goes to the customer, the assumption is made that the shop is a group of auto repair professionals that understand the process and must take care not to take advantage of a naive customer.
In Ca, if the cost exceeds the repair order, the customer must authorize (and understand) every single part and labor item. I mean every single part, every nut, washer, clip, etc. Every part cost must be itemized and a part number listed without exception. The shop must also record every phone conversation and what was authorized specifically. For some shaky-feeling customers I would even make them drive to the shop to sign each additional authorization as we went along, in case there were problems later, I would have written proof that I tried to explain exactly what was being done.
It seems that the vehicle owner did authorize the repairs, there is a signature on the RO, If the RO was up to date at the time of the signature. I would never again work off of handwritten RO's because it's too easy for a customer to claim that I had written in more stuff later, if they sign a printed estimate it's clear exactly what they are signing, right there next to the price.
In any case, it's clear to me that both parties must be a lot more careful to communicate thoroughly in the future. I'm sure that neither wants to do business with the other anymore, but each should be a lot more careful with the next guy.
EVERY piece of paper that was posted here is not clear enough for me, I can't imagine what the phone conversations were like.
On every repair order I have signed, if a phone call were made advising a revision in estimate, a note was placed on the repair order stating the revision, who made the phone call, who recieved the phone call, date and time.
AA only charges roughyl $83 an hour?
Kinda ... cheap imho compared to labor rates for P-cars out here. Or was that the VW labor rate?
"He then made it a point to tell me he was an attorney and could "make things very rough for me".
Konrad please! You have been an attorney for almost 4 months. Do you really think you have the stones to start threatening people or that anyone should actually be intimidated? Kind of gives you an idea of why the legal profession has taken such a beating in the public eye...
This kind of thing keeps coming up. It really isn't an issue of who did or did not communicate what to whom. It is an issue of trying to throw mud on someones reputation because it is easy. Too easy.
I have never met George or been to Automobile Atlanta. He may be a complete ass or he could just as easily be a nice guy. I don't know. I do know this, if I had a problem with George or his company I would be standing toe-to-toe with George in his office. Not trying to undo his reputation by taking this approach.
Even if George is partly wrong you should be apologizing for this public trashing.
I'm still mad at AA for getting those 914/6 heat exchangers I need off this site before I could, but having said that I think they have a much stronger case here, and I've spent many years writing estimates for car repairs.
If you don't want to pay $175 for a used type 4 fan then spend some time here or on E-bay finding a cheaper one and fix it yourself-oh wait, maybe that's not such a good idea since you are the guy who drove it around with a pair of pliers lodged in the blades with no 1st gear and seemed unclear on the concept that really crappy unmaintained (how the hell do you bust a rocker stud?-with the wrong fasteners, apparently!) 914s that need a nearly complete restoration will cost you a buttload to fix if somebody who knows what they're doing does the work-and will cost you even more if the work is done by someone else. AA seems to have done a decent job of making it drivable without doing any un-needed work, so enjoy the ride and file a lawsuit against someone else to pay for it. Phil
Thanks for everyone's replies on the issue, including George. Take it for what ever its worth to you. I hope this has been a learning experience for everyone. I think everyone here, including me, has learned to CONFIRM that both parties clearly understand what is going on.
Thanks to those who've supported me on this. To those who have not, thanks for being involved in the 914 community enough to voice your opinion.
Lets all get back to enjoying the teeners we love.
Konrad
Well said Konrad.
OK. Can an administrator please close this topic????
paul
Enough dirty laundry
T.C.
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