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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ What's the minimium diameter tubing required for an engine cradle?
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 1 2007, 07:21 PM
Would 1.25" OD mild steel stubing with 0.120" wall thickness be suitable for building an engine cradle for this VR6/901 tranny combo? The motor itself weighs about 400 lbs.
Posted by: sww914 Apr 1 2007, 07:49 PM
6" oughta do it.
Posted by: JPB Apr 1 2007, 07:59 PM
I'd go more like .250 cuz the mount probably won't be that long plus the ends need to be super fastened to your frame. That way it will never fail if your welds are good. The design has alot to do with it also. I would rather put a mount that cradels the trany and engine together than just a mount for the engine specially if it puts out some decent power. 
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 2 2007, 01:31 PM
Bump. If I can use 1.25" OD mild steel tubing I can bend it myself with one of http://www.shopoutfitters.com/CompactBender2.html but any larger and I need one of http://www.mittlerbros.com/Tubebender90.htm.
Posted by: Brian_Boss Apr 2 2007, 07:05 PM
Bump. If I can use 1.25" OD mild steel tubing I can bend it myself with one of http://www.shopoutfitters.com/CompactBender2.html but any larger and I need one of http://www.mittlerbros.com/Tubebender90.htm.
I have the Harbor Freight version of that first bender and I don't think it's designed to bend tube, only bar stock. I could imagine making a gentle bend in square tube but I'm pretty sure it would not work on round.
Posted by: andys Apr 2 2007, 10:56 PM
I built my engine cradle using 1 1/2" X .120" wall mild steel tubing. Engine is an LS1 at about 400lbs; the transaxle is a 6 speed at about 140 lbs. I've got a photo somewhere.........
A lot depends on the design you plan to incorporate.
Andys
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 2 2007, 11:54 PM
I have the Harbor Freight version of that first bender and I don't think it's designed to bend tube, only bar stock. I could imagine making a gentle bend in square tube but I'm pretty sure it would not work on round.
I found that bender after watching Ron Covell use it to bend round, mild steel tubing with it in his "Working with Tubing" DVD.
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 2 2007, 11:56 PM
I built my engine cradle using 1 1/2" X .120" wall mild steel tubing. Engine is an LS1 at about 400lbs; the transaxle is a 6 speed at about 140 lbs. I've got a photo somewhere.........
A lot depends on the design you plan to incorporate.
Andys
I would love to see pictures of your cradle and hear more about your setup. Did you bend the tubing yourself? Are you using a GM tranny?
Posted by: Crazyhippy Apr 2 2007, 11:57 PM
1.25 x .120 wall should be fine if designed decent and welded well...
DOM would be even better.
BJH
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 3 2007, 12:07 AM
Thanks. That sounds like what I need.
APPLICATIONS - Farm implements, construction equipment, racecar frames, motorcycle frames, automotive parts, off-road accessories, etc
Posted by: Crazyhippy Apr 3 2007, 12:10 AM
We use 1.50 x .120 wall for cage stuff in desert (baja 500 stuff) trucks.
If it will protect your noggin w/ a 5000 lb truck flipping through the desert, it should be able to hold up a 500lb motor trans combo.
BJH
Posted by: Gary Apr 3 2007, 01:23 AM
I'll be watching your progress with keen interest!
I've been looking at the possibility of a VR6 mated to either an Audi 016 (FWD 5000, 100 models) or Boxster tranny (similar internals to the 016, different case). Should be a bolt-up - no adapter plate. Both give a substantial increase in torque ratings. The 016 is nice b/c they're cheap at the boneyards $200-300, but you have to fab a shifter - well documented on the GT40 and lambo replica sites. The Boxster trannys are more - $1000-1500, but are newer, "Porsche", and have the shifter engineered for you.
If in the course of your project you have the tranny seperated, can you post a picture of the VR6 from the flywheel end? I'd like to see the bolt pattern of the case.
Posted by: andys Apr 3 2007, 02:57 PM
I'll be watching your progress with keen interest!
I've been looking at the possibility of a VR6 mated to either an Audi 016 (FWD 5000, 100 models) or Boxster tranny (similar internals to the 016, different case). Should be a bolt-up - no adapter plate. Both give a substantial increase in torque ratings. The 016 is nice b/c they're cheap at the boneyards $200-300, but you have to fab a shifter - well documented on the GT40 and lambo replica sites. The Boxster trannys are more - $1000-1500, but are newer, "Porsche", and have the shifter engineered for you.
If in the course of your project you have the tranny seperated, can you post a picture of the VR6 from the flywheel end? I'd like to see the bolt pattern of the case.
You don't need to pay Porsche prices for a Boxster trans. The 5 speed version is the same model 012 as is the late Audi/VW model 012 5 speed (not to be confused with the model 02J used on transverse applications). The prices start at about $300. Only advantage the Boxster trans has, is if it includes the shift linkage. It does a nice job of translating the movement.
Andys
Posted by: andys Apr 3 2007, 03:08 PM
I built my engine cradle using 1 1/2" X .120" wall mild steel tubing. Engine is an LS1 at about 400lbs; the transaxle is a 6 speed at about 140 lbs. I've got a photo somewhere.........
A lot depends on the design you plan to incorporate.
Andys
I would love to see pictures of your cradle and hear more about your setup. Did you bend the tubing yourself? Are you using a GM tranny?
Here's one photo that may help. Sorry, focus is poor. There's a bolt-in crossmember that's not visible right behind the adapter plate. Motor mounts (hydro-elastic) are LS6 'Vette. I had a local hotrod shop make the two simple bends.
Andys
Attached image(s)
Posted by: jd74914 Apr 3 2007, 04:34 PM
What kind of transaxle is that Andys? Boxster or Audi?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 3 2007, 05:00 PM
What kind of transaxle is that Andys? Boxster or Audi?
and more pics please!
Posted by: andys Apr 3 2007, 05:25 PM
What kind of transaxle is that Andys? Boxster or Audi?
and more pics please!
It's an Audi/Getrag 01E 6 speed. Never imported to North America (except for the Quattro version), ergo few exist stateside.
Andys
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Brian_Boss Apr 3 2007, 07:33 PM
I have the Harbor Freight version of that first bender and I don't think it's designed to bend tube, only bar stock. I could imagine making a gentle bend in square tube but I'm pretty sure it would not work on round.
I found that bender after watching Ron Covell use it to bend round, mild steel tubing with it in his "Working with Tubing" DVD.
Interesting. Did he use some trick or just stick the tube in and bend it? I have never had much luck bending any kind of tube with a bender that does not use some kind of mandrel to support the sides of the bend.
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 3 2007, 11:02 PM
I'll be watching your progress with keen interest!
I've been looking at the possibility of a VR6 mated to either an Audi 016 (FWD 5000, 100 models) or Boxster tranny (similar internals to the 016, different case). Should be a bolt-up - no adapter plate. Both give a substantial increase in torque ratings. The 016 is nice b/c they're cheap at the boneyards $200-300, but you have to fab a shifter - well documented on the GT40 and lambo replica sites. The Boxster trannys are more - $1000-1500, but are newer, "Porsche", and have the shifter engineered for you.
If in the course of your project you have the tranny seperated, can you post a picture of the VR6 from the flywheel end? I'd like to see the bolt pattern of the case.
Here are a few pics I took of the flywheel end of my 12V VR6 which is from a '97 Passat. If you need me to take some specific measurements between bolt holes, let me know and I'll try to take them tomorrow before I reattach the tranny.
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpattekb5.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpattesy6.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpattebj1.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpatteho0.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpattelw0.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpattejc3.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpattegr4.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=901trannymountboltpatterr6.jpg
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 3 2007, 11:35 PM
Interesting. Did he use some trick or just stick the tube in and bend it? I have never had much luck bending any kind of tube with a bender that does not use some kind of mandrel to support the sides of the bend.
Here are some screen captures of the tool setup.
Posted by: John Apr 3 2007, 11:49 PM
Ok, so all said and done, that bender is in the $950 range once outfitted with the round tubing die.
http://www.shopoutfitters.com/TubeBender3.html
Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Apr 4 2007, 12:26 AM
Ok, so all said and done, that bender is in the $950 range once outfitted with the round tubing die.
http://www.shopoutfitters.com/TubeBender3.html
Yup, and to bend larger tubing, Covell used a http://www.mittlerbros.com/Tubebenders.htm hydraulic bender which is at least $1300 more.
Posted by: Porcharu Apr 4 2007, 12:47 AM
If you can make an engine mount you can make a tubing bender.
Take a look here http://www.gottrikes.com/
I made the HD version - cost was about $250 including the ram. Then you need to get the correct die and you are ready to start bending.
BTW I am using 1.5" .120 wall for my engine cradle.
Posted by: Gary Apr 4 2007, 02:08 AM
If in the course of your project you have the tranny seperated, can you post a picture of the VR6 from the flywheel end? I'd like to see the bolt pattern of the case.
Here are a few pics I took of the flywheel end of my 12V VR6 which is from a '97 Passat. If you need me to take some specific measurements between bolt holes, let me know and I'll try to take them tomorrow before I reattach the tranny.
Those are great - thnx.
So it looks like an Audi 016 or 01E, a VW 012, or a Boxster G86 will all bolt to a VR6?
Posted by: andys Apr 4 2007, 11:19 AM
If in the course of your project you have the tranny seperated, can you post a picture of the VR6 from the flywheel end? I'd like to see the bolt pattern of the case.
Here are a few pics I took of the flywheel end of my 12V VR6 which is from a '97 Passat. If you need me to take some specific measurements between bolt holes, let me know and I'll try to take them tomorrow before I reattach the tranny.
Those are great - thnx.
So it looks like an Audi 016 or 01E, a VW 012, or a Boxster G86 will all bolt to a VR6?
I'm curious. Has anyone actually done this mating of all these transaxles and knows for sure? The VR6 is a transverse mounted motor, unlike the longitudinal mounting of the other trans/motor combinations listed. The VR6 looks nothing like the 012, 01E, or 016 bellhousing bolt patterns (at least in the pictures), so an adapter plate would be required (I speculate). Additionally, the 016 input shaft protrudes past the bellhousing mounting surface, whereas the 012 and 01E input shaft is recessed so it's hard to imagine they all somehow neatly interchange.
If one wishes to go the route of a late model drivetrain, then I would suggest an Audi or VW 4 cyl. 1.8T or a 2.7 (either na or turbo) both WITH an 012 5 speed transaxle. Someone on the list mentioned that the CV bolt pattern (though it's a 911, I think) will bolt right up to the 012 drive flanges.
Andys
Posted by: andys Apr 4 2007, 12:03 PM
If you can make an engine mount you can make a tubing bender.
Take a look here http://www.gottrikes.com/
I made the HD version - cost was about $250 including the ram. Then you need to get the correct die and you are ready to start bending.
BTW I am using 1.5" .120 wall for my engine cradle.
Steve,
I was thinking of making one of those too. How much are the dies?
Andys
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