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Posted by: BarberDave Dec 3 2003, 05:58 PM

o.k., I have a newly rebuilt dizzy for my F,I, conversion. the only trouble is it still has points. I have Petroix (sp) in the one i have on my 914 with a carb now. QUES. is which electronic ignition to buy ?What is your experience?
Dave

Posted by: ! Dec 3 2003, 06:33 PM

Give the Petronix the float test......

I always use the Crane/Allison optical unit. Cheapest place is Summitt Racing.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 3 2003, 06:37 PM

All my Pertronix cars run just fine. The Allison/Crane setup feels/looks cheap.

B

Posted by: ChrisReale Dec 3 2003, 06:38 PM

My pertronix has worked great also...

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 3 2003, 06:43 PM

It works EVERY day in my wifes car (watch it will break)..LOL

B

Posted by: ChrisReale Dec 3 2003, 06:49 PM

Brad, when you move my car around, does it sould like it has an exhaust leak?

Posted by: Kerrys914 Dec 3 2003, 06:55 PM

Pertronix in my car and so far so good I do have a spare one in the trunk/boot, just incase

The only thing I read to watch out for is DO NOT leave the key in the "on" position with out the engine running. I guess it heats up and gets ruined???

CHeers and best of luck.

Kerry

Posted by: robby750 Dec 3 2003, 06:58 PM

I have run the Pertronix for almost 4 years without a problem.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 3 2003, 07:00 PM

Mike hasnt owned a 4cyl 914 (that he drove on a regular basis) for almost...what..? 4 years now ?


B

Posted by: philinjax Dec 3 2003, 07:01 PM

Jacobs Electronic Ignition or better yet, their other company products from Fire Control Ignition Systems, http://www.fcignition.com/

I have used Jacobs/FCI on 3 of my own 914 cars and a couple of local 944 race cars. Never had an ignition related failure to date.

Phil

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 3 2003, 07:03 PM

Hey Phil,

Do they have a points replacement or is it just the coil ?? I have known of/about Jacobs for years and years (grew up in Texas..home of MSD and Jacobs)


B

Posted by: TimT Dec 3 2003, 07:10 PM

I had the allison on a 911 I owned for about 10 yrs. Never a problem. The guy I sold the car to 3 years ago still has the allison in place.

havent had the need to take a chance with the pertonix

Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 3 2003, 07:10 PM

year and a half on my pertronix and counting......

compufirre is pretty much the same deal....

Posted by: serge914 Dec 3 2003, 07:29 PM

I have a Mallory Unilite distributor and CDI with adjustable rpm limiter. Working fine and easy to install.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 3 2003, 07:44 PM

I'm running the Crane opitcal points, CD and coil.
No problems in 5 years.

Paul

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Dec 3 2003, 08:37 PM

Had Compufire electronic points in one car, Pertronix in another (old 914), and both lasted trouble-free for over 5 years.

Posted by: Doug Leggins Dec 3 2003, 08:44 PM

The pertronix is the best 60 bucks that I have spent on my car! I was amazed with the improvement that it made. Haven't tried the others.

Later added a MSD unit - great investment too, but it was a little pricey - $200 range. And due to my ignorance was a pain in the ass to get the tach adapter to work. But, after enough attempts I finally got it working.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 3 2003, 08:54 PM

what does the msd 6al do?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 4 2003, 02:11 AM

The MSD6al gives you soft touch rev control and gives you multiple sparks below 3k RPM (where carbed cars like to foul plugs when they are idling and such). It really cleans up the idle and off idle characteristics of all cars also.

I use a 5600 chip in the MSD for our production 2.0 cars. It cuts out cylinders to control over rev. It does this randomly instead of letting fuel build up and causing "popping" when against the rev limiter.


B

Posted by: ArtechnikA Dec 4 2003, 07:25 AM

Crane HI-6 and optical points replacement all the way.
the HI-6 has the multi-spark feature and switch-selectable soft-touch rev limiter (anybody want to buy a box of MSD-6AL revlimit pills?)

the HI-6 has a much more substantial look, fit, and finish than the MSD-6, which i don't think has changed in 20 years. i had two go Tango-Uniform and leave me stranded.

Crane's webpage has a nice cross-reference page for people emigrating from MSD - Autotronic's page doesn't have any cross-reference data :-) ...

i thought the MSD worked great - while it worked. IMO, the HI-6 is much better.

Summit's retail catalog price is LESS than Pelican buys them for...

i'm also using the '92' racing coil - probably overkill in a street car, tho.

Posted by: KenH Dec 4 2003, 11:30 AM

Will the TACH work with the CRANE or do you need some sort of an adaptor????????

Ken

Posted by: ArtechnikA Dec 4 2003, 11:46 AM

here's where it gets a little confusing, especially when "The" Crane is used. i'll start at the beginning.

if you're just using the Crane optical points replacement module, it 'looks' - electrically - just like points. if your existing tach is connected to the points, you should be able to connect it to the output (white wire) of the Crane optical points replacement module and it'll work fine.

but since we're nominally talking about electronic ignitions, i'm guessing you mean the HI-6 spark box. (Crane has other spark boxes i looked at before deciding i 'needed' the HI-6...) just like the MSD, the HI-6 has a "Tach Output" signal. if your existing tach can run with this signal (some can, some can't) you're in good shape.

you -may- require an adapter to make the stock tach work with that signal - basically, the points opening and closing in a conventional Kettering "battery/points/condensor/coil" ignition switch a LOT of current and generates a BIG signal the tach likes to see - keeps it from being jittery around electrical noise... the "adapters" are basically just loading coils that simulate the big current drawn by a points setup. they're not expensive.

alternatively - you can do what i did, and plug in an AutoMeter tach with a shift light - fits right in. you could use a tach from a newer-model 911 and lie to the box about how many cylinders you've got, then adjust the revlimit switch for a lower value (2/3, i believe).

Posted by: philinjax Dec 4 2003, 12:10 PM

Brad,

Jacobs do not supply electronic points, just the unique coil and electronics necessary to
individually multifire each plug, that is, their electronics calculates the arc resistance of each
plug on each firing and then modifies the arc voltage to maximize the performance of that
individual plug. I like the Omni Torquer for the four cyl. cars, it has no drop off of voltage output
far above 10,000 rpm. Here is a pic. of one...


The last I paid was $234 bucks I think.

Phil


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 4 2003, 01:56 PM

I have used the Crane pieces with success also. My issue: if something goes wrong with a MSD.. I can buy them off the shelf at just about ANY FLAPS. I always have to order the Crane.

Ahh who cares.. we will have multi coil multi spark setup soon with programmable injection which will do away with all this crap..

b

Posted by: ArtechnikA Dec 4 2003, 02:24 PM

this is one advantage of being over here on this coast - fast cheap shipping from Summit!

OTOH - like a lot of warranty / insurance issues - the only unit i've -had- to replace is the MSD, twice. the VW (Fairchild) units never failed, and Darryl Vittone has sparked some incredible HP from very radical engines with them. the Jacobs looked interesting but it looked like you need to go with "the whole system" from them and i didn't think i wanted to do that (even though that's exactly what i wound up doing with the Crane stuff - except for the Magencor plug wires ...). the Hi-6 hasn't failed (yet) and i really like the diagnostic/trigger LED, the programmable retard controller, and the switch-selectable rev-limit setting. (and if you -had- to, you could connect a MSD-6 where the HI-6 is, in but a few minutes. power, ground, trigger, tach out, cylinder-select, ta da...)

the NASCAR guys seem to love the MSD units, but even they use 2 per car (failure rate issues?) and i don't think they're using MSD-6AL's like you can get at the FLAPS.

i'm glad (reliability, ability to tie down the dizzy cap) to stay with the Crane for the moment, but i'd be glad to go to a more flexible programmable setup if i'm able to dedicate a car to track use. even though what i've got feels like it's working fine, i think there are advance-curve issues, and i'm not equipped to be playing with weights and springs.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 4 2003, 02:41 PM

Ha ha.. Rich you lived near Reno (which is where the Summit west coast wherehouse is located) We have one day shipping also..

Oh.. I dont know about RIGHT NOW, but the 3 Winston cup cars we had (99/00/01) 2 of them had bone stock off the shelf MSD6AL's in them and the third car (Yates car) had a CRANE in it. All the cars had twin fail over boxes. Kinda cool.


B

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 4 2003, 03:10 PM

All electrical components fail eventually.

IMO:
Points replacements are..... pretty damn handy. Once you get them in there, futher handy stuff is not required.
The installation can be simple (Pertronix) or fiddly (optical....ala Crane). Either way, a gud thing.

MSD style ignitions can be a Godsend or a waste of money.
A well tuned injection system has no need of them, but if you can look into your intake port at overlap TDC and see daylight thru the exhaust , you prolly need one

Posted by: aufaber Dec 4 2003, 03:25 PM

What brad said, I make an order and it's usualy sitting at my door when I get home the next day.

-Aaron G>

Though living in Huntington Beach i have a ton of local resources.. heck I could walk over to Motec Usa.. haha

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 4 2003, 03:30 PM

You could..but they wouldnt let you in the front door.


B

Posted by: aufaber Dec 4 2003, 03:39 PM

Sure I could, though I couldn't get in by myself. I'm sure I know someone who could get me in.

Though I am suprise how many places around here you can just walk into and talk to the main players at. It's wierd it's like they operate like local shops when you come in.. it just happens to be Rhys Millen thats helping you out.

Motec is a diffrent animal though.


-Aaron G.

Posted by: philinjax Dec 4 2003, 03:41 PM

Brad,

I am sure that all things and systems will be improved over time (except age) but as far
as a Jacobs system failing at midnight on the express way, there is a perfect back up. You simply pull the inline fuse for it, pull the hv lead off the Jacobs unit and plug it in to the top of the dizzy.
Fire up and go. The stock ignition stays intact as a back up.

Here's the diagram I made a while back.....


Attached image(s)

Posted by: TimT Dec 4 2003, 04:16 PM

I could have made a really simple ignition for my 911 instead I made this


Attached image(s)

Posted by: p914 Dec 4 2003, 04:49 PM

I use the Jacobs I.C.E. Pak. They are now located in the carolinas. 75 2.0 d jet. Ran so much smoother when I put the ICE pak on. run colder plugs when using the electronic ignition.

Posted by: p914 Dec 4 2003, 04:51 PM

The jacobs system is redundant so if you have probs you unplug the torquer coil and plug right back into the original coil.

Posted by: thesey914 Dec 5 2003, 05:26 PM

Most of the systems mentioned are CD units.....I know this is a good thing and makes your point last longer....but with an optical or magnetic pick-up how does it improve spark quality?
Anyone got any scientific answers?

Posted by: TimT Dec 5 2003, 06:01 PM

The magnetic or optical trigger just supply the signal for the cd box to fire the coil. The trigger does nothing to improve spark.

Pertronix and the Crane box are "set and forget" no messing around with point adjustments etc..

Posted by: rhd914 Dec 5 2003, 06:41 PM

Hi, when I put the 6 in my 914, I got a sensor from Luminition in the UK. This is an optical unit that will fit in where the points go, then I fitted a Bosch ign module. The reason why I did this is simple.
Using the Bosch module. I was able to run a high energy ignition coil. Also, if it fails, I can get one from most anywhere and keep going.

So far, 8 years, no problem
Thanks
Geoff.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Dec 5 2003, 06:45 PM

in a perfect world - not at all.

with worn dizzy shaft bushings, removing the sideload the points rubbing block imparts can reduct 'spark scatter' and improving the timing accuracy of the spark, if not the actual spark itself. and of course the fact that the running block does not wear means your dwell is not increasing nor your timing slowly advancing itself over time...

Posted by: Rouser Dec 5 2003, 09:48 PM

Pertronix Ignitor, with Flame-Thrower http://www.pertronix.com/ignition/coils/index.htm and http://www.pertronix.com/ignition/flmthrwires/wire.htm, going on 4 years without one hiccup.

Best value out there ...

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 5 2003, 09:50 PM

Mallory........ Its adjustable and the best on the market..

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 5 2003, 11:45 PM

Have you figured out a way to put the trigger points in the base of the Mallory ??


B

Posted by: thesey914 Dec 6 2003, 03:11 AM

I understand about the wear factor involved in points and they can bounce at high RMPs,
so magnetic or optical signals are preferable......but....how does the CD improve the spark quality, does it just give an amplified pulse to the coil?
Also how does it preserve the points ( I.E. no pitting ) when the signal travels from the points to the CD -seems like the CD is down-stream so has no input on the points....unless the CD draws less current leading to less burning of the points mating surfaces?
-J

Posted by: ArtechnikA Dec 6 2003, 06:47 AM

last point first. with a conventional Kettering ignition, -all- the spark energy is being switched by the points. a CD is only triggered by the points - the actual spark energy is generated in the CD unit with its own direct power connection. it is exactly like using a relay in a headlight circuit to isolate the switch from the full current of the lamp - except that it is much, much faster ...

so - there are several benefits to the CD's spark. since it can draw as much current as is needs without affecting points life, it can deliver much, much more energy to the spark. the coil in a Kettering ignition is an energy reservoir - it is charged with electricity when the points are closed, and when they open, the magnetic field created inside the coil collapses and an electrical pulse is created in the secondary side which fires the plugs. but it takes a relatively long time to charge a coil to full capacity, which is why 'dwell' (the amount of time, really, the points are closed) is so important.

capacitors are much more efficient energy storage devices, and they charge much, much faster, in part because they operate on voltages much higher than the 12V available to the Kettering coil, using a DC-DC power convertor found inside the unit (that's where the whine/whistle comes from).

they can also discharge their stored current much faster, so you have a precisely timed, high-energy spark with a very short rise-time that's excellent for firing a spark plug under harsh conditions.

that's the basic CD ignition - lots of energy from a direct power connection, places very little load on the trigger points, fast spark impulse.

as the systems improved over time, the "coil" had to change, because it changed its role from an energy-storage device to a true pulse transformer.

at this point, you can start adding doo-dads - if a CD ignition can recover so fast between sparks, maybe if one spark is good, more is better? enter the multiple-spark discharge type devices. since we now have electronics controlling the spark, we can measure the time between pulses and shut down the spark when the engine's running faster than desired - a rev-limiter function.

when you start sending huge amounts of energy into the spark plugs, you have to make sure all the high-tension stuff is up to snuff. (i had a non-Bosch dizzy rotor -explode- after just a few weeks' service with the MSD...) good cap and rotor, preferably Bosch, and good ignition wires. i like Magnecor because they work, the price is right, and (a sticky issue for 6-cyl cars...) the 911-style plug connectors actually fit.

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 6 2003, 07:14 AM

Has anyone tried the Gene Berg igniter on a type 4? It looks like a Honda coil and a small box but it uses points!

A customer has one on a type 1 bug, I took the points out after about a year and they did look like new.

Sorry I don't have a pic, but here's their sales pitch, link at the bottom.

Berg's Igniter Ignition

Bergs new electronic ignition. This new Berg Igniter Ignition system still utilizes the original distributor and points, however, the points now become a trigger. The points see only .4 ohms of resistance so they never burn and they never go away. You still have to grease the cam lobe of the distributor, but the points stay good forever. This new system offers 450 volts of power to the plugs and comes with everything you need to install it; coil, wiring harness and the brain. Get the power of the old Stinger systems with the convenience of the stock distributor (be careful and make sure you re-jet as needed). This conversion kit is used in conjunction with the Bosch 009 distributor. SW 4#

GB 624 Gene Berg Igniter ignition.


http://www.geneberg.com/elctrcpg10.htm

Posted by: Gint Dec 6 2003, 11:36 AM

Excellent write-up Rich. Thanks.

Posted by: jkeyzer Mar 18 2004, 11:42 PM

For the tach signals, can't you just connect the tach to the points wire where it goes into the CDI box, instead of using the tach output?

I did that on my 72 911 with an MSD-6A and it worked great. No tach adapter needed.

Posted by: Kargeek Mar 19 2004, 12:53 AM

I'm running an old school Permatune CD- I know it's not a multiple spark type unit, but it works great and the tach hook up is simple. Adjusting points is no longer an issue so I don't care if I have an optical point replacement in the dizzy. The unit is small enoughf to mount under the relay board so everything looks stelthy in the engine compartment. It made a huge difference in driveability on my carbed engine. Dave H