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Posted by: DNHunt May 3 2007, 10:27 PM

MS is incognito. Run programmable EFI and no one will know. ECU, MS relay board, and wideband O2 in the stock 2.0 l box by the battery. Here's a preview. Throttle position sensor in in the stock TPS.

Dave


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Posted by: McMark May 3 2007, 11:04 PM

Soooooo cool!!! I'll be doing this sort of setup for my 2270. 100% stock look, 2270 MS POWER!

Posted by: DNHunt May 7 2007, 08:18 AM

I just ordered a new set of boots for the wiring harness. This will come with Megasquirt II on a version 3 board with a TechEdge wide band O2 sensor included. The electronics will be in the box that held the stock FI computer. It will use a Pertronics in a stock dizzy to trigger. The Map sensor will be in a gutted MPS. The rest of the sensors will be stock. This will look stock except for a serial port, 6 pin connector, and 3 LEDS that display the status of the O2 sensor. I'll tune this on my 2056 so it should be plug and play and it should install in the parking lot of the hotel.

This is programmable FI and ignition for a 2 liter and it should pass visual.

Dave

Posted by: balljoint May 7 2007, 09:34 AM

Very Cooooooool. That's like a lot of members here. Mind of a 55 year old, body of an 18 year old.






No








Wait









I may have that backwards.....

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 7 2007, 09:40 AM

Going to make protests even more fun.

Ain't no Effin way that is a C-stock car. But I can't tell the difference until now. Thanks for spillin the beans Dave I will now know what to look for. Welcome to "STREET MOD"....

Posted by: boxstr May 7 2007, 09:54 AM

"Body of a 55 year old wishing he had the body of an 18 year old"
William Jefferson Clinton

Posted by: jhadler May 7 2007, 12:38 PM

Dave,

That sounds totally cool! I won't be able to make it to the WCR, but I would love to find out more about that setup. If you feel like putting more of these together, let me know, I'd be interested!

And no, it's not for cheating, but it sounds like it would be a pretty easy install...

-Josh2

Posted by: Matt Meyer May 7 2007, 12:39 PM

This is great.

I've been wanting to do something like this. Are you going to post progress and details.

Posted by: agrump May 8 2007, 09:03 AM

I did something similar wth an L-jet case but didn't end up using it because the AC compressor is in the way of the stock location. I did run it at idle but never ran it on the street so I don't know if there would be a heat problem. Most of the components are rated pretty high with the exception of the VR trigger but I wasn't planning on using that. The board just barely fit in the case. The crap on the board is a coating to protect it from moisture.

Posted by: DNHunt May 10 2007, 09:51 PM

More progress. The MsII kit is on the way. Hopefully I can build it next week.

I worked on the distributor today. I started with one of our 205A distributors and modified it just a little



First I plugged the vacuum port with a screw since all the advance will be programmed. This will allow the vacuum line to be connected, it just won't do anything.



I drove out the pin in the bottom of the shaft.



Then came the fiber washer



I took off the vacuum advance plate to use later



Took the springs and weights off the shaft and then welded the centrifical advance to the shaft so all the advance is locked out. This leads to another interesting problem since the rotor will get oyut of sync with the advance and there can be arcing in the cap. I need to find a rotor with a electrode that is wider.



Soldered the Pertronix to the terminals of the gutted trigger point plate. The 3rd brown wire grounds the primary of the coil through the ignition transitor in the megasquirt ECU.



Pertronix going in



Here's the Pertronix on the old vacuum advance plate with the ground from the coil exiting out the hole the old condenser exited.



I'll need a different rotor



Finished. It looks stock

Posted by: yarin May 10 2007, 10:11 PM

Looks like a nice clean stock look Dave. Good job!

I epoxied my 009 dizzy's mechanical advance mechanism. Haven't touched it since.

One of these days I really want to move away from stock injectors running PWM. Someday...

Posted by: r_towle May 10 2007, 10:40 PM

how does MS do with a mild cam...more than the 9550, but still streetable?

Rich

Posted by: DNHunt May 12 2007, 08:58 AM

I would suspect OK. But, it still needs a reasonable vacuum signature. My 2270 idled with about 1/2 the suck as the stock engine did and MS was fine.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt May 12 2007, 09:10 AM

Here is what I did with the MAP sensor. I'll hide it in the old MPS. First I gutted an old one.



I installed a nipple on the inside of the vacuum port.



I saved the mounting plate from the old MPS and attached the new MAPsensor to it.



I hooked up 3 wires and a plastic hose and that's it



Finished

Posted by: Bleyseng May 12 2007, 09:47 AM

Dave, I have 'bout 30 dead MPS's to do that to.

Posted by: DNHunt May 12 2007, 10:31 AM

Sounds like a nice Friday night with a couple of beers.

Dave

Posted by: McMark May 12 2007, 11:04 AM

That is so awesome!

Someone is going to be very lucky to have that MS setup!

Posted by: Bleyseng May 12 2007, 01:09 PM

cases....

Posted by: DNHunt May 13 2007, 07:11 AM

This is
gonna mzake a great project box. Its already got mounting rails and the main header has 25 pins and large pins that are widely spaced so they'll be easy to solder to. I just broke up the old pcb and desoldered the header. By the way there ia a multitude of mondo old components to salvage off the old ECU including some very large resistors.

Dave


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Posted by: rick 918-S May 13 2007, 08:21 AM

You know that lower grunting testosterone sound that leaks out of a guy when he sees a really hot babe? I just happened when I saw your pics Dave.

Posted by: jimkelly May 13 2007, 08:31 AM

rotor thread

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=71732

this is all great stuff.

i plan to MSII my 1973 2.0 this summer - your timing could not be better!

Jim

PS - your transaxle rebuild thread was my guide - big help !!

Posted by: DNHunt May 16 2007, 04:01 PM

I layed out the things that will be in the case. WBO2 board is on top, black MS version 3 board is underneath and I added a fuse block. There are connections for the o2 cable, a serial port and some LEDs to the left.



Here is the side facing the firewall. At the top are the LEDs for the WBO2, the serial port and the plug for the O2 cable on the bottom.



The cover is untouched



Dave

Posted by: pbanders May 16 2007, 04:21 PM

Couple of comments on this conversion. Note that the MPS has a spring loaded bleed diaphragm over the inlet port, this is needed to damp the response of the mechanical MPS core. I would suggest that it be removed if a solid-state MAP sensor is used. Secondly, how are you sealing the MPS? Obviously, you don't need the full-load diaphragm section, and leaving it installed might lead to leaks if the diaphragm cracks. I'd suggest figuring out a solid, leak-free replacement for the entire full-load assembly (stop plate and diaphragm).

Great stuff. I have yet to buy a MS to play with. Does it provide any options for using an idle stabilizer?

Posted by: DNHunt May 20 2007, 08:56 PM

Harness is done


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Posted by: r_towle May 20 2007, 10:25 PM

What type of auction is this?
I cant get out there, but I would sure like to call in during the bidding, or email, or proxy.
However it works, please give some details on the bidding for people that cannot attend.

Or, tell me how much you would charge me to make that for me.

Rich

Posted by: Jake Raby May 21 2007, 07:28 AM

Dave,
I'd love to get my hands on that for a few days to gather some data from it!

Posted by: rick 918-S May 21 2007, 08:18 AM

I'd sure like to see the data you extract!

Posted by: DNHunt May 21 2007, 08:22 AM

Brad

I gutted the MPS so it is vented to the outside air through the little slots in the MPS body.

Jake

There isn't much to it. I just hid all of the sensors in the stock packages. and made up a new wiring harness to to an MS II board hid in the old ECU case. Other than that it's just a hall effect sensor providing the tach input and the ignition IGBT on the MS board grounding the coil primary for ignition.

There are really only 2 issues. Phasing the rotor so the spark makes it back through the locked distributor to the right spark lead. With luck I have that right. And, deally with any noise in the signals.

Course I still have to get the board put together, install Old Smokie in the car as a tuning mule, tune it, document it and get it down to McMark. Needless to say, I'm not getting much done on my engine. One good thing is after I'm done with this I'll use Old Smokie to work through a conserative tune with my waste spark system so I'll have a good spot to start in September.

Dave

Posted by: McMark May 21 2007, 02:14 PM

Dave, you might be able to get Jake to tune it in for you.

Posted by: Matt Meyer May 21 2007, 02:18 PM

How did you mount the MS brain in the D-Jet box. Yes I see the pictures but the devil is in the details.

Where are you going to put the resistors for the injectors?

Posted by: Jake Raby May 21 2007, 03:39 PM

I'd really like to test it Vs. my EFI retrofit kit based on SDS electronics... ;-)

Posted by: DNHunt May 21 2007, 05:51 PM

I doubt I can get it done, bugs worked, tuned, back to your place and out to the auction in SF by the middle of next month. Maybe whoever buys it will let you play with it. I would think that my MS II with EDIS would be pretty comparable with the SDS with crankfired ignition. Maybe you could compare those.

Dave

Posted by: Jake Raby May 21 2007, 08:54 PM

Yeah, plus I don't have an engine in the works that would be complimentary to either of them for another 5 months- this is wild and crazy season in this neck of the woods..

If you want to build another one to sell later on down the road we might be able to work out a tentative plan..

MS is one of the only systems I don't have enough data from to really support.. I'd like to change that as I need to test the new CB Performance EFI system that comes out on June 1st and it's always easier to just swap ECUs and keep the throttle bodies and etc on the engine for back to back runs... The new dyno will make this testing much faster and easier than the Stuska.

Posted by: DNHunt May 22 2007, 09:03 AM

My best advice to you Jake is stay away from MS. Here's why.

1) It is an experimental electronic gadget, and every bit of info put out by them says that. As a hobbyist I can accept that but, as soon as you as a businessman give advice about it on an engine you put yourself at risk. You accept risk indirectly for the way the guy put his kit together, installed it and other aspects of his tune beside what you gave him. Something goes wrong and the guy looks for someone to blame and your you know what has a bullseye on it. Sad but true.

2) There are just way too many configurations. You can't afford the time and money to learn it.

3) It attracts the low ballers. Many of the people that want to run it are attracted to it because it's cheap. I know how you feel about that.

I know that sounds harsh but, MS doesn't belong in a business like yours. I believe in it and I think you may appreciate what it can do as a system. Put a layer between MS and yourself. When customers ask about your engines and MS send them tell them they have to learn it themselves and if they use it they assume ALL of the risk. Then send them my way and I'll try to answer their questions. You may lose a customer or 2 but I bet you'll sleep better.

Dave

Posted by: Jake Raby May 22 2007, 09:20 AM

Dave I certainly appreciate and value your post...

BUT the reason I wanted to test the system was to KNOW the differences between what it offers and what we offer. I love good hard facts and I want to know why the changes are present. When a potential customer asks me what the differences are between my cooling system and another I KNOW the differences because I hold the data- I want the same thing to happen when someone asks me about the differences between MS and our SDS arrangement.

At this stage we are the only company that makes ANY effort to understand the Type 4 engine in the big picture format and since I have direct data from 5 different EFI systems I need this one to complete the ring.

I also need to learn more about MS tuning and use the system to tune some of my most popular engine kit combos because more and more of my kit customers are using the MS based arrangement. Having tuning tables and etc are critical to supporting the kit later on just think of how you would have been relieved if I would have had some MS base maps to email you!

So, I'll never end up using this system on my complete engines, but I would like to have a unit nailed to the wall in the dyno lab ready to have leads attached for comparison and education sakes. I already have other units permenantly attached there, all I lack is Link and MS.

Posted by: DNHunt May 22 2007, 09:39 AM

Jake

I suppose my advice was based on being in a profession where liability is a constant concern.

I certainly appreciate your desire for information and data and, I can see how testing MS would be good for a comparison. My concern is that you will get blamed for a problem when it really relates to what the guy did building and installing. I'm on my 3rd MS project and I've learned new stuff each time. I also read a lot on the MS board and there are a ton of mistakes made and short cuts taken in assembly. Do you really want to be included in that?

For example, suppose you give out an ignition table and the guy doesn't have the trigger offset right. Many of those guys never check the base timing so it could be way off. Or, worse, suppose you give out a fuel map and the guy has the too low of a RegFuel (a direct multiplier of the fuel map), it will be way too lean. Might he blame you for too lean a map?

Dave

Posted by: gregrobbins May 22 2007, 12:59 PM

Jake, I have a built up MS ECU I would be happy to send you to test. I don't have a harness, but imagine you have all that you would need in the shop.

Let me know if you would like me to pop it in the mail for you.

Posted by: Jake Raby May 22 2007, 01:16 PM

Greg, That would be great. Have you ran the unit at all as of yet??

Dave, Liability is always a concern for me, but what I learned over the years is the fact that I am gonna get blamed for everything anyway so what the hell!

I am close to being fed up with the retail aspect of this place......

Posted by: DNHunt May 26 2007, 10:11 AM

Argh

Never again! There is just too much crap to figure out. Marrying wiring is no fun.



Not enough room



Dave

Posted by: DNHunt May 26 2007, 12:26 PM

It runs. Everything works on the Stim.





Dave

Posted by: DNHunt May 26 2007, 04:25 PM

Finished, it's all in the box.





Dave

Posted by: DNHunt May 26 2007, 04:34 PM

Here's the guts. TechEdge 2BO Wideband O2 driver is on top; MS II on a version 3 ECU on the bottom. Connections are on the left; power and grounds on the right.



Dave

Posted by: SirAndy May 26 2007, 05:03 PM

Posted by: DNHunt May 27 2007, 05:59 PM

Here's all the gear. ECU, distributor, MPS, Throttle body and TPS


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Posted by: Bleyseng May 28 2007, 10:23 AM

Pretty cool Dave!


Thats what I want to do next, but my car is running soo well I don't have the heart to switch it over.

Posted by: LS6/914 May 28 2007, 10:31 PM

Dave, Can you monitor the wideband O2 real time with a timing curve, MAP, TPS, individual EGT, with the MS? Larry

Posted by: sixnotfour May 28 2007, 10:36 PM

Nice job Dave
How much do you think that set up will bring at auction ? ballpark ?

Posted by: DNHunt May 29 2007, 08:28 AM

Larry

Yes you can, but it is kind of a pain. The tuning software's desktop has 8 gauges that can be assigned. They also give a numerical value. The hard part is getting the right gauges up. They have to be assigned in a .ini file. You can also datalog those functions.

Jeff

I don't have any idea. It is certainly apparent from the amount of time and the cost of the parts that it wouldn't fly as a second business. The only way I'd consider doing it again is if a beautiful woman in a tight wet T shirt asked with a smile on her face.

It is kind of limited to 2.0 l engines because of the harness.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 7 2007, 09:51 AM

Well I finally got it started. It's not running well but, I haven't started timing and tuning yet.

What a struggle. I have tried to follow the stock harness and I got tripped up by a little detail I missed. I ran my switched 12 volt power off the 4 pin connector that ran the stock ECU. Pins I, II and IV all have switched 12 V so, I powered the MS and WBO2 off of I and the power for the injectors off of II and IV. That's a big problem cause II and IV are only hot with the key to start. The thing would cough and die, DOH!!. Looking at it now I can see a fine line indicating a trace on the relay board. It's all in the details.

I still hope to have it down there for WCR but, if I run into anymore snaffus of my own creation I probably won't. Back's to the wall.

Dave

Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 7 2007, 10:26 AM

cool beans dave. a tinkerers delight.

k

Posted by: effutuo101 Jun 7 2007, 10:50 AM

Nice job Dave! your attention to detail and desire to keep a "stock" look is amazing. Keep up the great work. See you soon.

Posted by: agrump Jun 7 2007, 11:29 AM

II and IV are the starter as you said, I is hot when the key is on, III controls the fuel pump relay, you want to set that one to ground when the engine is running.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 7 2007, 11:30 AM

Shoot Dave, I can arrange that very easily.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Jun 7 2007, 02:18 PM

that is a sweet install. will a stock 2.0 yeild higher HP with the MS? what is the gain over stock D-Jet

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 7 2007, 09:15 PM

I think the main benefit is having new parts. Ones you can actually find replacements for, unlike (say) the stock MPS.

Plus the ability to tune the system very easily.

--DD

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 9 2007, 08:15 PM

Well it's almost done. I actually went on a little drive with the package in the car and it ran well. My hope is that whoever wins this will just need to weld an O2 bung in the exhaust, install the stuff and drive away. We'll see. It should be pretty close.

Luckily, I had an old file with the tuning I did on a dyno with this engine so, it didn't take much to get it running well. The acceleration stuff is different with MS II so I had to work over that. And, this thing is a cold blooded pig to start. I needed a ton of cranking fuel. I have a few concerns about flooding cause it seemed like so much gas.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 13 2007, 07:03 AM

All done. The last of the docs are printed and the files are on a USB stick. I'm just getting ready to head out in the garage and take it out of the car. I had a nice drive last night and worked out the last few bugs. It should be good to go. Olld Smokie is gonna miss this system. It looked like it did when I got it before I started mixing and matching parts.

Here's the docs

Dave


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Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 13 2007, 01:00 PM

take one of my 009s, the webers off the type 1, and keep motorvating. i've got some intakes for you to use also. carefull...once carbed, you might even like it.

k

Posted by: DNHunt Jun 13 2007, 03:27 PM

Well it's on the way. I'm gonna go take a nap