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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ i have to pull the engine
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 03:05 PM
the engine would turn (by hand) prior to the install. initially it turned fine when trying to start it. never did light off. made a wierd noise or 2, now, it won't turn at all. full charge on bat. starter just clicks. plugs out, in gear, pass side tire chocked, i can not turn the engine with the dr side tire at all. like it's hitting something. i have 0 answers or ideas. just about at the end and ready to take a huge loss on everything. debating whether to pull the engine, and just roll the car out and tarp it. words can not express....
k
Posted by: Justinp71 May 7 2007, 03:12 PM
You could have dropped a valve seat, that happened on my 2.0L once.
Happened when it was hot though, but still possible.
Posted by: bd1308 May 7 2007, 03:17 PM
yeah i have had a valve pop off and get lodged in the cylinder/piston area...
then it finally stopped, i think something in the oil pump locked the engine up tho, due to mateal particles coming from the huge hole in the piston
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 03:23 PM
i have not started this engine. there was no metal in the sump when i removed it to change the oil.
k
Posted by: SLITS May 7 2007, 03:26 PM
Will the engine turn backwards from the point of lockup?
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 03:31 PM
ill go check.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 03:37 PM
no i can't. tried to turn it with the dr side tire. trans i used was known to be good when installed. i did do a clutch package. is there something in the array that could cause this.
Posted by: Jake Raby May 7 2007, 03:39 PM
sounds like something is jammed in the flywheel/ clutch area...
ALWAYS make it a point to turn the engine after mating it to the gearbox!!! BEFORE install!
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 03:43 PM
puttin' on the coveralls and getting started. i'll get some pictures when i separate the 2. the engine would turn over. then try it again, thunk, and quit turning.
k
Posted by: Joe Ricard May 7 2007, 03:44 PM
Just drop the transaxle off and see if you can turn the motor then.
Report back in an hour. Otherwise you are SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: SLITS May 7 2007, 03:48 PM
I'd do a quick check on the starter to see if it's jammed in the flywheel teeth.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 03:50 PM
by check, you mean just remove the starter first?
k
Posted by: Twystd1 May 7 2007, 04:06 PM
yes
Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 7 2007, 04:07 PM
I'd do a quick check on the starter to see if it's jammed in the flywheel teeth.
Yes pull the starter and inspect the teeth on the starter and the F/W.
Also test the starter on the ground and make sure the motor as well as
the solenoid works.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 04:18 PM
starter out. no sign of hammering on the starter gear. the flywheel edge seems WAY close to the upper edge of the bell housing area. as seen thru the hole the starter left behind. no camera right now. how much clearence should there be from the fw edge to the bell housing? i'm not going to fight this with the engine in. also, the bolts that secure what haynes refers to as the "clutch assembly' sit proud of the flywheel. is that correct? or should they sit recessed into flywheel?
k
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 04:45 PM
btw. the engine does rotate with the starter removed.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 05:04 PM
HA! 
while rotating the engine i noted some orange spray paint on the diaphram housing. i seem to remember a certain engine coming to me with the same spray paint on the same part. the fw gear on that engine was all torn to hell. could it be the curse of....?
k
Posted by: SLITS May 7 2007, 05:12 PM
Now, the fact that it does rotate is REALLY GOOD NEWS
I would hope that the flywheel is not the larger diameter one (225 mm instead of 215 mm).
I'll try to get you a pic of a flywheel with clutch installed.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 05:30 PM
there is a tight .018" distance from the outside radius of the fw (teeth) to the bell housing. i measured this thru the hole for the starter.
k
Posted by: John May 7 2007, 05:43 PM
You are going to have to at least pull the trans off of the engine to find out why the flywheel or pressure plate are sticking out so far.
If it was me, I'd just pull the whole thing and work on it outside the car. But that's just me.
Good luck to you.
I hope it's something easy.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 06:05 PM
th whole package is coming out john.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 07:49 PM
is the fw being this close to the bell housing on the trans the standard? if it's the diaphram unit is what's wrong and the fw is right i'd rather not have to pop the fw off.
k
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Posted by: davep May 7 2007, 07:59 PM
I can't see anything bad there.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 7 2007, 08:18 PM
Looks right to me also. Did you test the starter?
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 7 2007, 08:20 PM
check this one out.....
did you put a NEW oil pump in this motor?
if you did... and didnt machine the tang.... the gears could be eating into the front cover....
but that would be felt without the trans tho.....
whats the end play on the motor?
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 08:49 PM
215 vs 210? disc that came out is identical (no #s) to this and the comparo picts. flywheel has been turned rusty is from long term resting in the garage while installed. can i dress it down with a fine scotch-brite. note the fingers. i think dave hunt came over and the end play was ok. don't remember the #s, that was sometime ago. time to heat up the visa.
k
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Posted by: Demick May 7 2007, 08:58 PM
Please tell me you didn't use this pressure plate!!
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Posted by: SLITS May 7 2007, 09:04 PM
Kevin ..... I thought maybe you changed the flywheel. With the bigger flywheel, the tranny shouldn't fit.
I agree with Demick ........ those fingers look uneven indicating a weak spot in the pressure plate ..... or it could be the angle of the photo.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 7 2007, 09:28 PM
Nope, I think your right Ron. Looks bad to me also.
Posted by: John May 7 2007, 09:31 PM
So does the engine turn freely with the trans off?
Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 7 2007, 09:35 PM
btw. the engine does rotate with the starter removed.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 10:08 PM
that fw is not the on that came with the engine. i don't think it came with one. this engine deal happened quite sometime ago and i don't have any issue with the sale. i think the starter prob is a blessing at this point. i was crazy sick with the grave's desease (if you're not afflicted, you have NO idea. not an excuse mind you) when i bolted this thing together. there are about 5 months of my life where i have no speciifc memories of certain events. so i'll step back, recheck the end play. i honestly don't know if i even checked the ep prior. all i know is there is no fore aft movement at all when i push/pull on the fw.
k
Posted by: John May 7 2007, 10:18 PM
what about a pic of the starter?
Posted by: rhodyguy May 7 2007, 11:42 PM
i put this starter in during the wcc04' in the side yard at high perf house. it's never given me a lick of trouble.
k
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Posted by: John May 8 2007, 12:00 AM
Have you found any shiny spots where it was rubbing? I don't see anything in your pictures.can you compare your old flywheel (that didn't cause you any trouble) with this new flywheel?
Something just doesn't seem right. Does the input shaft of your trans turn freely?
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 12:08 AM
i'm being a bit unclear. so i'll back track a bit. the pictured fw is not the one that was on the engine i took out of the car. the one pictured is one i got from a member that had been machined. the trans input shaft spins
freely without any bind or glitches. more pictures coming
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Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 8 2007, 12:17 AM
I know that I sound like a broken record but have you tested the starter?
See that the solenoid kicks out and that the starter motor spins. I would start there
and if you feel strongly about the end play, check it,it's not that big a deal.
Posted by: Twystd1 May 8 2007, 01:08 AM
Starter gear is skipping against the top of the FW teeth. Look at the top of the FW teeth.
Looks like starter has an issue. The starter gear is getting stuck in the FW before it gets totally engaged. Then stays stuck to the FW because of improper mesh. (distinct possibilty)
Any body live close to you with a spare "KNOWN GOOD" starter you can try?
That would answer the starter question once and for all.
Thats what I see so far. Couldn't hurt to try.
Clayton
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 09:23 AM
i don't know anyone with a loose, known good starter clayton. even w/a defective starter, i don't understand how it could cause the engine to not rotate, when the starter is not energized. dave hunt heard the engine do it's 'thunk'. a conundrum. thanks for the input everybody. the engine drop was sure fast and easy. practice, practice, practice... 
k
Posted by: davep May 8 2007, 09:52 AM
I don't like the look of the flywheel to crank bolts. Looks like something is rubbing there, and that must not happen. There should be a tiny amount of endplay on the flywheel. I forget the specs, but it is very important, as is the number of shims required. I also use a new O-ring, felt washer, pilot bearing, lock washer, and flywheel bolts when I put a flywheel on an engine. A loose flywheel cost me large one time. I was told to Loctite those new bolts in place by the head mechanic at Stoddard Imported Cars.
I also use a new plastic cup in the throw-out arm, and new bushes on the T-O bearing. I know, lots of little details, but it works for me. Most of those parts are cheap, and tend to be worn out.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 10:16 AM
new pivot bushing, clip, t.o. bearing were installed. i don't understand how any of those could contribute to the 'thunk'/no turn over situation. the engine initially spun fine. then there was the mallory debacle. fixed that. spark, fuel, air. the engine was trying to start...THUNK. end of go, beginning of 'why'.
k
Posted by: Root_Werks May 8 2007, 10:17 AM
i don't know anyone with a loose, known good starter clayton. even w/a defective starter, i don't understand how it could cause the engine to not rotate, when the starter is not energized. dave hunt heard the engine do it's 'thunk'. a conundrum. thanks for the input everybody. the engine drop was sure fast and easy. practice, practice, practice...
k
Kevin, if you bring those rims up, I'll let you borrow a NEW high torque starter.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 10:29 AM
i'll push the 914 to marysville and we'll stick it in. 
if you go to the post office, get one of the free priority mail flat rate boxes and mail the starter to me, i'll pay for postage both ways and give you one of the wheels for nothing. with the price of fuel, time and the stupid traffic. it would be cheaper in the long run. where did you buy the starter and how much was it?
k
Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 8 2007, 10:30 AM
i don't know anyone with a loose, known good starter clayton. even w/a defective starter, i don't understand how it could cause the engine to not rotate, when the starter is not energized. dave hunt heard the engine do it's 'thunk'. a conundrum. thanks for the input everybody. the engine drop was sure fast and easy. practice, practice, practice...
k
When the solenoid kicks out, if the gear does not mesh right with the ring gear or
if the solenoid is goofed up it can stick in the outward position and put the engine in a bind.
But I am not going to ask you if you TESTED the starter again. (did you?)
Posted by: echocanyons May 8 2007, 11:02 AM
Test the starter while out of the car.
Other things that can make the starter not turn are low or partially discharged battery and ground issues.
Once you rule out the starter and the battery you can assume it is your engine or flywheel.
(I know that still doesn't explain not being able to turn the wheels, but this leads me to believe that it isn't your starter too.)
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 11:13 AM
i took this before the old engine pull. i'll have to try the battry charger to energize the starter. red charger lead to the to the spade term for the yellow wire and the black chargr wire to nut with the wire that secures the wire that goes to the starter body. all it does is hum. are these the correct test points for the starter out of the car?
weird. the old setup workd just fine when i put the car away for its winters sleep. how the starter could go bad just sitting is beyond me. but then, quite a few things are.
k
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Posted by: Bartlett 914 May 8 2007, 11:23 AM
i took this before the old engine pull. i'll have to try the battry charger to energize the starter. red charger lead to the to the spade term for the yellow wire and the black chargr wire to nut with the wire that secures the wire that goes to the starter body. all it does is hum. are these the correct test points for the starter out of the car?
weird. the old setup workd just fine when i put the car away for its winters sleep. how the starter could go bad just sitting is beyond me. but then, quite a few things are.
k
I would put the black wire from the charger to the frame where it bolts in. Put the red wire on the big red wire. Short from the yellow to the red to energize the starter. Not sure about the charger being big enough. Jumper cables from a good battery is a better power source.
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 11:24 AM
got off the phone w/dan root. he's going to mail me a NEW starter (high torque) for test purposes when the engine goes back in.
k
Posted by: Ferg May 8 2007, 11:33 AM
Cool! I hope you figure this out.
Don't let that High Torque starter scare you first time, they make quite a unique high pitch noise. And since you are already listening for odd noises, you can rule that one out...
Ferg
Posted by: rhodyguy May 8 2007, 11:41 AM
i've heard dave hunt's h.t. starter in action. as long as it has the 'sound' other than the "clunk", i figure i'll be on the path to being a happier 914 owner. if there is such a thing. nice picture mike.
k
Posted by: vsg914 May 8 2007, 11:54 AM
use the jumper cable method to test everything with motor on the floor just to make sure before you reinstall it.
Posted by: Travis Neff May 8 2007, 12:33 PM
I just did a bench test on mine, hook the positive charger cable to the lead with the big red wire, hook the ground to the bolt hole for the mount - then short with a screwdriver, the positive lead (big red wire) to the yellow lead (switched lead).
Posted by: Twystd1 May 8 2007, 01:28 PM
The problem probably isn't the starter section of the starter. it is probably the solenoid section that sits atop the starter.
Me thinks the gears are getting stuck together when you first hit the starter.
I bet ya if you bolt up the starter right now. And give it NO JUICE. (12VDC) the engine will turn fine. But as soon as you hit the starter once with juice. The gears are getting stuck together. And the engine binds.
Please understand that I am just guessing here. But thats what it looks like to me.
clayton
Posted by: Gint May 8 2007, 03:42 PM
As long as nothing smashes your face in Kevin, I figure you're ahead of the game. Hang in there. I'm sure you'll get it worked out. And how satisfying will it be when you you do eh? 
Posted by: Aaron Cox May 8 2007, 05:16 PM
your local FLAPS will test the starter for you..... FREE
Posted by: Twystd1 May 8 2007, 05:54 PM
The Flaps idea is a good one.
There is one problem with it though.
The Flaps test won't really tell you everything you need to know. As the starter and seloniod isn't under the EXACT same load as when it's in your car with your gear issue. With that exception. it's a good test.
Hell you can hit your starter with jumper cables and your battery and see how it works without a load. (put your foot on it. it likes to rotate)
If'n you didn't have your tranny out already. I would suggest taking your solenoid apart. Cleaning the hell out of it. Lightly lubricate it and throw it back in. Just to see if the gear stick issue would be fixed.
My notion of the gears sticking because of a sticky solenoid is just a guess.
Could also be the starter not having enough umph to spin the motor. That will stick the gears as well. (uneven loading of gear mesh)
Either way... the high torque starter you are borrowing will tell you all that you need to know... (hopefully)
If all else fails.
Hit it with a big hammer...... 
Claytonious East of Java.
Posted by: Root_Werks May 9 2007, 05:39 PM
got off the phone w/dan root. he's going to mail me a NEW starter (high torque) for test purposes when the engine goes back in.
k
It's on its way as of early this morning. A starter barely fits into the largest flat rate box they have. $8 to ship, cheaper than gas down and back for sure.
Posted by: LS6/914 May 9 2007, 05:55 PM
Crap, Ive been on the train too long again. K, I have a spare high torque, also load tester for the starter. Larry (need a locomotive belching brake smoke smiley)
Posted by: Root_Werks May 13 2007, 02:47 PM
Kevin, let me know if you got the starter yet. Interested to see if that did the trick or not.
Posted by: sixnotfour May 13 2007, 04:08 PM
Dan he is over here;
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=71745&view=findpost&p=899998
Posted by: Root_Werks May 13 2007, 04:51 PM
Dan he is over here;
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&showtopic=71745&view=findpost&p=899998
Thanks Jeff, I am posting there.
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