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Posted by: orange914 Jun 16 2007, 09:31 PM

anything out there worth looking into that is reasonably priced that gives any horse power gain?
mike

Posted by: George H. Jun 17 2007, 12:24 AM

1st what reasonably priced to you?







power gain send your heads to HAM let him fill the spark plug holes, re-tap in 2 ltr location and do a polish job on them that should net you a few HP's

they say you pick up 10 from the plug relocation

Posted by: mills914/s Jun 17 2007, 10:19 AM

Where do they put the plug on the other heads...Does anyone have a pic? Im interested in doing this to my 1.8 but not sure.
Seth

Posted by: Mueller Jun 17 2007, 12:24 PM

I think only 1.8/2.0 replacment heads are available right now, I believe these are the base heads HAM uses that he supplies to Jake.

http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=EHD0002&cartid= (don't mind the picture)

$399 each, and the stock valves, guides and all that related stuff sucks from the factory and should be replaced before use.

without looking at HAMs site, I want to say about $1500 would get you a set of new bolt-on heads

Posted by: orange914 Jun 17 2007, 06:29 PM

i guess what i mean is it's money well spent in return for reliability, longevity and horse power verses possible engine swap/upgrade. i'm reluctant to:
1 get into any bigger projects than needed unless it's really benifitial
2 keeping in mind i'd prefer stockish w/ added h.p. (never know which way ca. smog will go)
i've been thinking along the lines of quality (oversized?), bumped compression pistons/cylenders. also you've interested me with the improved heads. with this set up i would think i maybe pull 20? more reliable h.p.? i've always wondered why vw's
sorry, type IV's had such low compression and required such high octain. i have to assume its just design. smog wise they do produce alot of h.c. or is it also that the studs pull out?
questions, questions, mike

Posted by: orange914 Jun 17 2007, 06:42 PM

looked at the link. how would this work out w/ 1.7? makes me wonder if 1.8/2.0 has larger cylendar seats (what ever that machined area is called) in them. would it match up with oversize 96mm cylenders? thats the direction i'm leaning on this repair. if not raced or abused would it be to unreasonable to expect thier stock valves and seats ect... to last? sounds like the only mod. to installing the heads would be to cut hole for plug relocation/ fill old...no?

Posted by: brer Jun 17 2007, 09:15 PM

Do you have a set of 1.7's right now?
if you'd like I can send you pics of my 1.7 heads post machine work.

There are a couple other things I can send pics of that you might find interesting as well, like 2L plug and chamber shape modifications.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 18 2007, 09:18 AM

you pick up some from the plug relocation but the 2.0L has improved larger ports.
its possible to have some cylinder rings made so you can run 2.0l heads with 90mm cylinders.
Have Len rebuild your 1.7 heads with new larger valves 42x36 and improve the ports. Ray Greenwood gets 100+hp outta his 1.7L Djet car.

Posted by: Tobra Jun 18 2007, 09:26 AM

lotta power to be had in a nice set of heads

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 18 2007, 12:42 PM

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/cylinderheads.htm

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 18 2007, 12:50 PM

ah, I see the LE160 can be ordered in 1700 size.

Posted by: brer Jun 18 2007, 01:06 PM

On a budget, if your 1.7 heads are original 914 1.7's just rebuild those.

1.7 heads in 914's are great platforms for simple porting and valve size increases on a budget. Cores are cheap and can be in good shape unlike 2L heads.
The 914 1.7 is much more likely to be rebuildable than the others, mine were like new and were original to my car.

You CAN get a better performing head done for under 700 bucks. Even if you go to Len, I think it was 800 he qouted me for a rebuild with modified ports and upped valve sizes. That was six months ago or so. And while the relocated spark plug is worth the money, if budget does not allow I wouldn't be upset. Port them, valves guides, seats and go.



IMHO

Posted by: anthony Jun 18 2007, 01:57 PM

IMHO, there are pretty much no easy/cheap/simple upgrades for the motor that produce significant hp. The best bang for the buck is probably exhaust - 1.7L SSI heat exchangers can still be found relatively cheaply. You can add a Bursch exhaust to that.

The best bang for the buck is to build a 2056 with a decent cam and exhaust. You'll get a solid 115hp and will be able to scratch the tires in 2nd gear. From a stock 1.7 it's a huge hp, and more importantly torque boost. It's even a big torque boost over a stock 2L. You can build a 2056 of those for around $2500. If you go with EFI you can use a different cam and probably squeeze another 10hp out of it. But unless you can roll your own megasquirt, that will cost $$$.

Beyond the 2056, incremental boosts in HP cost a small fortune IMO.

Posted by: orange914 Jun 18 2007, 11:52 PM

sure, pictures and info is what i need right now. looks like i might need a quality set of pistons/cylenders also. what size are stock, what size can i incress it to with out overheating or other problems?

Posted by: orange914 Jun 18 2007, 11:53 PM

who's len? i'm interested

Posted by: brer Jun 19 2007, 12:48 AM

Len Hoffman.

http://www.haminc.biz/

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 19 2007, 12:53 AM

with the 66mm stroke you can go to 96mm and have a 1911 motor. Nice little engine if you change the valve sizes to 42x36. likes to rev and has pep, but its not a 2056.

Posted by: orange914 Jun 19 2007, 11:13 AM

i've heard when you go that big the cylendar walls are thin causing heating issues? is this different with quality aftermarket/o.e.m.? at what point do i need to machine case/heads?
will this increase, run my d-jet lean? should i adjust my regulator (pressure) up a few pounds to in essense fatten/compensate?

i'm ready to start looking for the right stuff

Posted by: orange914 Jun 19 2007, 10:43 PM

wow very impressive heads, i'm sure worth every penny, just out of my range.
guess i'm looking for a set of good 2.0's and tin?? any up for sell out there?

Posted by: orange914 Jun 19 2007, 10:46 PM

are 1.7's able to take 42x36? does anyone build these in 1.7 or 2.0's?

Posted by: McMark Jun 20 2007, 12:11 AM

1.7 heads lack the better port design and lack the better spark plug angle. BUT a 1911 with 1.7 heads with 2.0 sized valves will STILL be fun.

Posted by: orange914 Jun 20 2007, 12:25 AM

yes, but i think then i'd be flipping on my objective to build reliable/h.p. when i repair the dropped seat, no more. i think the more i look into it the more i should just rebuild a set of 1.7 heads and one piston/cylander, maybe new rings -most of which i should have. i at first thought 93mm with 2.0 heads, no case mod. just r&r. not much luck yet on that.
mike

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 20 2007, 08:49 AM

I have one set of HAM prepared 2.0 heads for sale with 42X36 valves, new seats and the full HAM treatment with 12mm plugs and etc.. I'll take 1,200 for the pair

This is typically what labor is for rebuilding 2.0 heads, but these have all new valves, seats, guides, springs and retainers (all our updated parts). These would be great for up to a 2056cc engine with the 96mm bore size.


96mm is not big, we consider the 96mm cylinder a stock replacement- I haven't buil;t a 94mm bored engine for 7 years!

A properly configured engine will not have heat issues, we use the 96mm cylinder at power levels to date of over 212HP with the stock cooling system.

Its all in the combo.

Posted by: toon1 Jun 20 2007, 10:04 AM

MIke, one of Jakes radio shows talks all about Cyl. heads.

In his opinion, the 1.8l heads in stock configure are the best flowing and most reliable for making up to 125hp on a budget.

Healso has a show that talks about 125hp budget rebuilds for around $1500.

If you are looking for added HP in stock configuration this seems the way to go. You can use you 1.7l crank and rods, get a set of 1.8l heads, cyl., and pist., and there you are.

From what I am learning,the reliability factor in these motors are the top end and making sure everything is correct.

The bottom ends are real strong

Just my .02

Keith

Posted by: orange914 Jun 20 2007, 05:29 PM

are these rebuilt or new castings

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 20 2007, 06:35 PM

These are OEM "039" 2.0 castings that I was saving for my 912E build.... I have decided to use a prototype 2.9L engine for the car with my roller lifters and our newest heads, so I don't need these..

Posted by: brer Jun 20 2007, 07:18 PM

Thats a smokin deal.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 20 2007, 09:58 PM

Yep.. The castings were cherry before the work as well with very low mileage (the only reason I even considered having Len rebuild them)

Posted by: orange914 Jun 21 2007, 12:04 AM

i agree. i've now narrowed the decision down to either:

1 new 1.8 head set and 96mm pistons = 95 h.p./$1300

2 these heads $1200 and 96mm pistons $?? = $? / h.p.?

jake can you help me fill in the ?
thanks, mike

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 21 2007, 08:06 AM

110hp

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 21 2007, 10:12 AM

What induction???

These heads are good for 125HP with a 2056 with carbs, using stock FI limits the output to a "safe" 110HP or so..

Posted by: orange914 Jun 21 2007, 01:03 PM

it's stock 1.7 d-jet. i will go 96mm 8.0:1 either choice heads i deside, but not touching bottom end. by the way i need to check the cost of 96mm pistons/cyl's if i purchase these heads, do you sell these? what kind of $ do you want for cyl.'s & heads?
thanks, mike

Posted by: toon1 Jun 21 2007, 01:21 PM

You might be in for a prob. with the stock 1.7 injection sys.

Posted by: George H. Jun 21 2007, 01:53 PM

mike go shopping http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/product.php?productid=16168&cat=275&page=1 for piston pricing

jake already told you the cost of the heads

happy

Posted by: orange914 Jun 21 2007, 02:08 PM

acording to auto atlanta the 1.8 heads/96mm is quite usable with stock d-jet. he suggested checking emmisions readings (lean/rich) and tweaking if needed. i.e. use cht sender resistor, increasing fuel pressure and one other thing i dont recall. i remember talking to you about the stock fuel injector flow rate high ability and thinking how the engine could be fattened up across the range with incressing the fuel pressure.
if there is information out there that d-jet cant support 1911cc i'd really like to hear it before i melt $1500! any input is valued

Posted by: George H. Jun 21 2007, 02:15 PM

Mike,

your stock injection will work , it just can't be as finely tuned as carbs or aftermarket efi

your already limiting the 1911 by not changing cams, so i would not worry about the slight loss of possible power by running your stock d jet.

maybe try and get your hands on some 2 ltr intake manifolds,

Posted by: orange914 Jun 21 2007, 02:26 PM

george
it's a tough desision as i think the extra engine size (1911cc) may be marginal on the stock d-jet. i'm not conserned w/ max. h.p. but more lean conditions. will increased valve size push it over the edge?? or can it support it with modifications like cht resistor, fuel pressure increase?
what is the differance between 1.7 and 2.0 intakes?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 21 2007, 02:39 PM

Use 2.0 ECU,injectors, plenum and runners and you'll be just fine with the D jet.

I have ALL this stuff in my warehouse stash... 150 bucks for everything if you buy the heads

Posted by: orange914 Jun 21 2007, 02:57 PM

i cant beleive the questions i'm coming up with...sorry,BUT
1 according to a 914 parts supplier catalog i was looking at yesterday the 73 1.7 and 2.0 ECU are the same...will need confirmation on that
2 are injectors and runners/plenum different?
3 is that with 2.0 tin change pieces?

p.s. i appreciate you all dealing with my ignorance here

Posted by: George H. Jun 21 2007, 03:21 PM

Yes




yes





dont know

doubt it, since jake didn't list it

Posted by: orange914 Jun 21 2007, 08:59 PM

are 1.8 improved port over 1.7?

Posted by: George H. Jun 21 2007, 10:41 PM

mike why don't you talk to nate (addwestern here, 914-parts ebay ) about one of his running 1.7's http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Excellent-Running-Porsche-914-1-7-Running-Motor-Engine_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ012QQitemZ220124216124QQrdZ1


then purchase those 2 ltr heads from jake ( because if you don't want them i know i would take them at that price), collect the bit's and pieces you need for the rebuild and build one hot little 1911. but change your cam.

Posted by: Borderline Jun 22 2007, 10:03 AM

I built my 1911 with Hoffman rebuilt 1.8 heads and am really happy with it. Ya gotta go with a new cam though. If you're going to do it, do it right. Jake is right, you have to put together a complete package. A great set of heads with a stock cam is a waste of time and money. You don't even know how worn the cam is. IMHO

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 22 2007, 11:02 AM

AND the stock cam SUCKS!

Posted by: orange914 Jun 22 2007, 05:21 PM

what grind out there work well with stock d-jet (not changing that). i'm leaning toward 1.8 new casting heads and 96mm. i think i'm pushing d-jet perameters, not sure how large valve will do. i should have answer next week (desision on 2.0 heads)

Posted by: Mueller Jun 22 2007, 05:26 PM

no you aren't...there is at least one person here running a 2.3+L with D-Jet
...

Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 22 2007, 06:42 PM

who dat?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 22 2007, 08:46 PM

My 9550 and 9590 are both designed for D jet specifically, one for higher elevation performance, the other more general.


Unless those heads come from us remove ALL the hardware and throw it away, it's all Chinese junk. We buy more of the brand new castings than anyone in the world and EVERY head gets totally refit with valves, seats, springs and retainers- the AMC hardware is horrible (we throw buckets away monthly)


Go 42X36- bigger is not necessary and will actually hurt performance and tuning of the Djet


Cool

Posted by: orange914 Jun 22 2007, 08:55 PM

o.k. if d-jet would handle it (2.0/cam)would the stock 1.7 injectors, intake, plunum work? i'm thinking no. then i'll need to find tin, maybe cht resister and other variables. dont get me wrong i really like the idea but i've only got so much i'm putting into the dropped seat repair. my goal is a quality repair on a limited budjet. the other factor is i'm walking my son kenny (limited mechanical experiance) thru it for his first time. long story short i'm now in a wheelchair and have to instuct him thru it. i dont want to push the whole the thing to complicated.
just so i can realistically gauge the 2 seanerios, how much EXTRA $$ would a good guess for the cam, tin, injectors, intake/plunum be? $1200 2.0 heads+ $600+- 96mm +$ other parts =$? i can realistically do new cast 1.8 heads, 96mm pistons, rod bearings and gaskets for apx. $1350 thru auto atlanta.

if there was an experianced 914 engine guy out there that would be willing to help us build this, i could be influenced. shamless plug...
oh and by the way the motor is OUT and on the bench!
mike

Posted by: orange914 Jun 22 2007, 09:00 PM

oh yeah... cam and full gaskets too $$

Posted by: orange914 Jun 22 2007, 09:15 PM

jake
you can p.m. me if youd like. can you give me an out the door cost for the whole 2.0 head conversion if you sell the 96mm pistons, tins, intake/plenum (if needed), injectors (if needed), cam, gaskets and/or anything i may have missed you may think of? i'll attempt to make discision early next week.
thanks, mike

Posted by: brer Jun 24 2007, 05:14 PM

I took a picture of my converted 1.7 heads yesterday.
you can see the porting, not as large as some we are working on, but I was only planning on 42x36 valves. Relocated spark plug holes on these as you can see.
Once the chambers are ready i can share those with you as well.

I'm using a custom FI system with these.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 24 2007, 05:21 PM

Yes, all I sell is Type engines/parts and I do have all those parts, but my prices are not cheap as we have fully developed components and we do not specialize in huge volumes of sales..

As I mentioned, the new 1.8 heads have issues, we take those heads and totally reconfigure them with new parts and hardware as the parts they come with are horrible.

Posted by: orange914 Jun 25 2007, 04:16 PM

SOLD i'm back today as promised, jake how do we go past this to purchasing the heads and matching cam/cylinders? i need to talk to you today about combo spacifics. i know you prefer e-mail comunication but if possible could you (or rep.) call me at 209-537-3749.
thanks, mike

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 25 2007, 11:59 PM

Just saw this and it's nearly 0100 in the east..

Call me tomorrow at 706 219 4874, I have a dyno session in the afternoon and some modeling to do, but I should be available at that number around lunch time..

Posted by: orange914 Jun 26 2007, 01:33 AM

great, thanks

Posted by: orange914 Jul 1 2007, 09:11 PM

great advice, you made me look into it and it has evolved from dropped valve repair to 2056. it really is happening thanks to the help along the way. sir andy really helped us out with the 2.0 bottom end to build. and the 96mm and heads are coming. those will hurt for a while$$$! but in the end worth while. i'll post a pictorial after completion. if all goes well and the parts arrive the build/bbq is tenative for the 22ndish.

Posted by: brer Jul 1 2007, 09:28 PM

take pics!

Posted by: McMark Jul 2 2007, 01:57 AM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: orange914 Jul 30 2007, 07:25 PM

just wanted to thank you all who's experianced input has helped shape this build. it's a long road but so far we have located/bought most items needed for a 2056. i was a mechanic and built engines for years before my accident so this has been great learning walking kenny thru it.

i just need to get the (9550?) cam and a few misc. from jake 8/1/07 when the cams will be avalible. special thanks to sir andy for the bottom end items needed to make the 2056 happen.

along with locating parts we've checked previously balanced rods w/ bearings and nuts (29 oz.'s each) plastic gauged new rod bearings and built rod/crank assembly, sand blasted/painted tin, tore down spare 1.7 for parts/hardware misc. and located a set of o.e.m. swivel feet. we'll have them machined next week. this list may help give others an idea of whats needed to convert to 2056 from 1.7/1.8.


ALREADY PURCHASED:
- heads
- tin
- 2.0 intake runners and plenum, 2.0 throttle body, 2.0 air cleaner
- 2.0 case, crank, rods, 96mm pistons, cylinders
- (1) 96mm piston
- bearings, crank polish, gaskets, micropolished crank

NEED TO GET:
- Jake raby- cam/lifters set(RAT9550), push rods, cam gear set?, full flow oil conversion?
- $--- misc.

2056 ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/cylinderheads.htm
71mm stroke x 96mm bore
- Len Huffman prepared .039 2.0 Porsche http://www.haminc.biz/vw/type4.shtml
- relocated and sized spark plug
- valve 42x36 mm
- improved seat material and machining process
- 55 cc
- chromoly retainers
- stainless steel valves
- 2.0 “GA” case
- line bored (0.50mm) 0.20
- balanced rotating assembly
- all 4 rods/bearings and nuts each at 29.0 ounce exactly
- lightened flywheel
- 2.0 crank turned (0.25mm) 0.10 main, (0.25mm) 0.010 rod, std. thrust and micro polished
- 5 dowel pins flywheel to crank
- oil galleys drilled/tapped and plugged
- 96mm Keith black hypereutectic flat top pistons
- Jake raby RAT 9550 cam/lifters set
- D-jet fuel injection
- pertronix electronic ignition
- 1.7 stainless steel exhaust/monza muffler
- estimated 110ish+- reliable H.P.

and yup thats the kitchen bar, -better than the coffe table i guess

Posted by: George H. Jul 30 2007, 07:53 PM

Mike why don''t you get your own screen name,

everytime i read a post from orange914 i think damn that kid has it together

then i find out it was you posting

just kidding of course, but it does get confusing

Posted by: orange914 Jul 31 2007, 12:17 AM

goerge,
your probably right about getting a name... i dont mean to pull anything over on anyone, and appologize if that has happened. i just have the time to sit at the computor to figure this build out. kenny is a good hard working kid, works part time at pizza parlor and selling 914 parts, full time senior in h.s. and now a lot of hours in learning/building this motor. believe it or not he bought his first 71 914 from 3 paper routes savings -at age 13-. this is his 5th 914 if you count the 3 (un-fixable) parts car 914's. i think it's a good lesson for a kid to have an investment in his car (guy anyway). dont get me wrong he's not always gung-ho and takes allittle proding sometimes but is always happy with the car in the end... and i HOPE this will tie things down for some time!

mike-non orange914

oh yeah what do you think about the build spec.s so far? any critiques?