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Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 06:37 AM

OK, finally got a few minutes to share some roller cam info....


Roller cams are the major factor that keeps the VW pushrod driven engine from being made more modern. All of todays modern pushrod engines use roller cams and lifters to provide valve actuation, due to this these engines can run on oils that do not have as much zinc and phosphorous contant and this is a huge factor that is driving all my engines to the roller technology.

Roller cams provide the following:

- More power than any flat tappet cam of similar characteristcs, due primarily to faster opening events.

- Less friction than a flat tappet as the roller wheel actually "rolls" on the cam lobe instead of depending on lobe tapers and lifter crown radii to spin the lifter (HUGE)

-The use of roller cams and lifters allows much small lift and duration numbers to be used to gain the same net power as a much larger flat tappet cam, this means better idle, better EFI system compatability due to a stronger and more stable manifold pressure.

It's no secret that we are doing the roller lifter development to meet two main objectives, the first being better compatibility with modern oils and the second to make more power. Roller equipped engines have serious throttle response compared to flat tappet cams and they also have serious torque curves due to the extreme chamber filling at lower lifts because of the ramp speed of the cam.

The friction reduction with these cams and lifters is a huge benefit, the way our roller lifters are designed there is virtually nothing to wear out as the engine gains age. The use of an 8620 tool steel camshaft blank coupled to the rioller wheel that is made from another grade of tool steel (for compatability) results in two components that are well lubricated, resistant to wear and resistant to failure either on the street or on the track.

My emphasis with this development has been 13 months in the making, the first 5 months was the simplest, basically sourcing materials, designing lobes and having the cam blanks made up from scratch. After this point the project was stalled due to one company going out of business, my schedule and all sorts of tooling issues with the case alignment tools we designed to install the bushings. The last six months has been full of ups and downs but last week we finally got the bushings installed the way that made me happy and with the latest revision to the toolimng is fairly simple for us.

This week we will be doing tests in the simulation device and then tearing down to measure wear, bushing aligment and etc. What will follow is a series of 4 different test engines being built with both roller and flat tappet cams for comparisons in power and tuning. After these four engines are completed this technology will be the standard here with all of my "Performer" based engines using the technology by mid 2008 at the latest.

I'll close by saying this development is being made primarily for STREET engines, not race engines! Most every racing venue that exists for the 914 has rules that do not allow for roller camshafts to be employed- when something is made illegal by a racing body you can bet that it really works and gives it's users a huge edge-

Here are some detailed pics, I have shared more similar pics over at my forums in the R&D section.


Here are some of the bushing alignment tools used to check bushing install to ensure the roller lifters are going to be truly perpendicular to the camshaft


This is a digital plot from our cam profiler that clearly shows the differences between a roller and flat tappet cam that have the same .050 duration values and similar lobe lift, note how much wider and flatter the 9900 series camshaft is, this and all 9900 series cams are rollers.


So, there ya have it, couple these to a pair of porkies heads and 300 REAL HP was never made so easy or reliable before.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 06:56 AM

Oops, forgot a pic or two of the billet rocker arms we are doing to promote the roller cams.... These will also work as stock replacements and will be available in aluminum and billet steel.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 09:34 AM

Now for some pics of the porkies heads that will accompany these rollers in optimized applications :-)

The way they started.


After some work



The six cylinder guys really won't be liking these results.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 16 2007, 10:01 AM

Way cool Jake, I have stated a rollercam fund for my engine. I wonder how much hp a 2056 can make with rollers and heads?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 10:11 AM

160HP from a daily driver 2056 is a reality... I am building one of these now for development purposes.

Posted by: 914nerd Jul 16 2007, 10:16 AM

When are these going to be out and available for purchase?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 11:05 AM

These are going to be only available in complete engines as we work on refinements and further developments with them. There are many more aspects that are critical when optimizing, or even using these lifters and cams, including heavily modified pistons.

These alterations are not something I would ever task an individual with that had not used the components before, so at best we'll be offering "Roller" engine kits to the public and not selling cams and lifters individually.

Turnkey roller engines are now available on a case by case basis for the right interested parties that are willing to assume the fact that we have not worked the "Bugs" out of these yet- we'll still be refining these for years to come...

Posted by: McMark Jul 16 2007, 12:52 PM

I am so excited about all these new developments.

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 16 2007, 01:01 PM

Man Jake this is worse than being 3years old with a buck at the candy counter. I can hardly wait.

Dave

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 01:13 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 08:34 AM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 01:32 PM

Grant, we have never really had an adventure go bad with development work, except when we made things and those who were interested didn't follow through.. These are also not really experiments, the technology is already proven in other engines. It's just my job to apply them to thie TIV engine and develop them as well as possible.

True, some six cylinder guys and gals may not care about what we are doing with these advancements, but even if 5% of them wonder why the hell they got passed by a 4 cylinder car I'll be happy :-)

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Jul 16 2007, 01:34 PM

For PCA racing the upgrade would probably fall in to "Non-stock cam" and have the same mod points as replacing a stock cam with a 9550. Bring it on

A roller cam kit would be awesome. Please send to McMark ASAP

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 01:41 PM

Yep, it would be worth taking the points hit to install this cam, for sure...

It would never work with stock FI- no way, not happenin!

Posted by: Trevorg7 Jul 16 2007, 01:49 PM

Sorry - pet peeve of mine

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 16 2007, 01:55 PM

It does create another option for 914's and guys looking at installing a 160hp 2.4-2.7L six can look at a 160hp 2056 which looks stock. If ya used Nikkies the type4 2056 would last 200k easy and run cool.

Now how about those rollers for my Westy!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 02:00 PM

Rollers for the westy are no issue.. I am working on a cam profile now for the "Super Camper Special" that uses a roller cam, based on a profile from an early roller Mustang engine that was originally hydro.. The torque with this will be phenomenol!!

The 2056 engine is probably going to be the engine of choice for the rollers, even more so than the 2270 and thats due to the lack of stroke and easier fitting of components as well as the fact that the roller makes so much torque that the 2056 roller may make as much power as yesterday's 2270 did with much less investment.

At this point all these parts are veryy expensive, but as things progress costs will drop, especially with the roller cams and lifters as quantity goes up..

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Jul 16 2007, 02:10 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 09:05 AM)

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 16 2007, 02:15 PM

QUOTE(Thomas J Bliznik @ Jul 16 2007, 01:10 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 09:05 AM)

These are going to be only available in complete engines as we work on refinements and further developments with them. There are many more aspects that are critical when optimizing, or even using these lifters and cams, including heavily modified pistons.

These alterations are not something I would ever task an individual with that had not used the components before, so at best we'll be offering "Roller" engine kits to the public and not selling cams and lifters individually.

Turnkey roller engines are now available on a case by case basis for the right interested parties that are willing to assume the fact that we have not worked the "Bugs" out of these yet- we'll still be refining these for years to come...

Jake,

I am really, really interested in a "Roller engine kit" for my 2.0-L mostly stock F.I. Engine. If you read a recent post, I hate the cam in my F.I. engine with it's poor idle & stumble at low speeds. It's the wrong cam in my car & I am ready to do something. What would a "Roller Kit" consist of___?? Give me a ball park $$ & I may be your first customer. Let me know if you want me to send a personal e-mail with details of my engine so you can make recommendation's or suggestions. I was looking at your site & thinking about stepping up with Nickies, new Heads & a milder Cam for my street driven 914. I am just starting to look at different cost options. I just want a reliable F.I. stock looking engine with a little extra hp. I don't believe I need a turnkey roller engine, just the reccommended kit, but open to recommendations.

Tom

Posted by: smontanaro Jul 16 2007, 02:26 PM

Silly question I know, but just where are the rollers? In the rocker or in the cam? I always
thought they were in the rockers, but you keep referring to a "roller cam". You've got me a bit ...

Skip

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Jul 16 2007, 02:27 PM

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 16 2007, 12:15 PM)

QUOTE(Thomas J Bliznik @ Jul 16 2007, 01:10 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 09:05 AM)

These are going to be only available in complete engines as we work on refinements and further developments with them. There are many more aspects that are critical when optimizing, or even using these lifters and cams, including heavily modified pistons.

These alterations are not something I would ever task an individual with that had not used the components before, so at best we'll be offering "Roller" engine kits to the public and not selling cams and lifters individually.

Turnkey roller engines are now available on a case by case basis for the right interested parties that are willing to assume the fact that we have not worked the "Bugs" out of these yet- we'll still be refining these for years to come...

Jake,

I am really, really interested in a "Roller engine kit" for my 2.0-L mostly stock F.I. Engine. If you read a recent post, I hate the cam in my F.I. engine with it's poor idle & stumble at low speeds. It's the wrong cam in my car & I am ready to do something. What would a "Roller Kit" consist of___?? Give me a ball park $$ & I may be your first customer. Let me know if you want me to send a personal e-mail with details of my engine so you can make recommendation's or suggestions. I was looking at your site & thinking about stepping up with Nickies, new Heads & a milder Cam for my street driven 914. I am just starting to look at different cost options. I just want a reliable F.I. stock looking engine with a little extra hp. I don't believe I need a turnkey roller engine, just the reccommended kit, but open to recommendations.

Tom

Tom, what cam is it? Wow, the 9550 cam I am running has good idle and incredible off throttle response....I got 30mpg recently on a trip across the mts (350miles) going 80mph+ on the freeway.

I am looking at building a roller,Nikkie, lite crank, MS FI 2056 in a year or so as parts become available.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 16 2007, 02:32 PM

QUOTE(smontanaro @ Jul 16 2007, 01:26 PM)

Silly question I know, but just where are the rollers? In the rocker or in the cam? I always
thought they were in the rockers, but you keep referring to a "roller cam". You've got me a bit ...

Skip

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 02:36 PM

Tom, we have not even been concerned with sales at all at this point, all I want to do is make the parts work and do their job flawlessly, then we can worry about sales and etc.

The kit I was mentioning would be an entire ENGINE KIT, not just a cam and some parts. This is due to the other drastic changes the roller technology demands from the rest of the engine including piston/ valve clearance and etc.

It's much too early to sell any of these parts, it will take a solid year or more to even get close to that point comfortably. Thanks for your interest!

Posted by: greybeard50 Jul 16 2007, 02:52 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 12:11 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 02:58 PM

We'll always be keeping the daily driver combos more conservative, mainly just for drivability..

Today's flat tappet equipped 2270 is rated at over 180HP in Performer trim, with rollers I expect this engine to jump to just over 200HP, thus maximizing it's heads (again)

Posted by: cuca914 Jul 16 2007, 03:00 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 01:36 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 16 2007, 03:13 PM

You definitely shouldn't wait, there will always be new advancements. Plus that 'old' 2056 will have some resale value.

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Jul 16 2007, 03:17 PM

QUOTE(cuca914 @ Jul 16 2007, 01:00 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 01:36 PM)

Tom, we have not even been concerned with sales at all at this point, all I want to do is make the parts work and do their job flawlessly, then we can worry about sales and etc.

The kit I was mentioning would be an entire ENGINE KIT, not just a cam and some parts. This is due to the other drastic changes the roller technology demands from the rest of the engine including piston/ valve clearance and etc.

It's much too early to sell any of these parts, it will take a solid year or more to even get close to that point comfortably. Thanks for your interest!

So, you just like to us by showing us cool pictures and thowing out crazy performance numbers?!

I was just getting excited about putting together a "regular" 2056 kit, but for 50+ hp and more torque I'm not sure if I should save my $$ and wait.

Jake, it really is fun seeing the advancements you're working on!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 03:18 PM

Don't wait on me... None of this craziness may work and even if it does it'll take many months to get it to the level that it needs to be.. If you bought a 2056 kit now you'd be eligable for an upgrade when the parts are proven and it would not take a complete kit to implement these developments to an existing 2056 RAT engine...

Posted by: cuca914 Jul 16 2007, 03:19 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 16 2007, 02:13 PM)

You definitely shouldn't wait, there will always be new advancements. Plus that 'old' 2056 will have some resale value.

Posted by: toon1 Jul 16 2007, 03:22 PM

QUOTE(Thomas J Bliznik @ Jul 16 2007, 02:17 PM)

QUOTE(cuca914 @ Jul 16 2007, 01:00 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 01:36 PM)

Tom, we have not even been concerned with sales at all at this point, all I want to do is make the parts work and do their job flawlessly, then we can worry about sales and etc.

The kit I was mentioning would be an entire ENGINE KIT, not just a cam and some parts. This is due to the other drastic changes the roller technology demands from the rest of the engine including piston/ valve clearance and etc.

It's much too early to sell any of these parts, it will take a solid year or more to even get close to that point comfortably. Thanks for your interest!

So, you just like to us by showing us cool pictures and thowing out crazy performance numbers?!

I was just getting excited about putting together a "regular" 2056 kit, but for 50+ hp and more torque I'm not sure if I should save my $$ and wait.

Jake, it really is fun seeing the advancements you're working on!

I feel like a dog in heat with no satisifaction, rant, rant,
I just looked at Jake's web site to buy a D-Jet #9550 cam & lifters?? I don't see any cam or lifters on the web site. Now what do I do or didn't do???

Tom

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Jul 16 2007, 03:25 PM

QUOTE(toon1 @ Jul 16 2007, 01:22 PM)

QUOTE(Thomas J Bliznik @ Jul 16 2007, 02:17 PM)

QUOTE(cuca914 @ Jul 16 2007, 01:00 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 01:36 PM)

Tom, we have not even been concerned with sales at all at this point, all I want to do is make the parts work and do their job flawlessly, then we can worry about sales and etc.

The kit I was mentioning would be an entire ENGINE KIT, not just a cam and some parts. This is due to the other drastic changes the roller technology demands from the rest of the engine including piston/ valve clearance and etc.

It's much too early to sell any of these parts, it will take a solid year or more to even get close to that point comfortably. Thanks for your interest!

So, you just like to us by showing us cool pictures and thowing out crazy performance numbers?!

I was just getting excited about putting together a "regular" 2056 kit, but for 50+ hp and more torque I'm not sure if I should save my $$ and wait.

Jake, it really is fun seeing the advancements you're working on!

I feel like a dog in heat with no satisifaction, rant, rant,
I just looked at Jake's web site to buy a D-Jet #9550 cam & lifters?? I don't see any cam or lifters on the web site. Now what do I do or didn't do???

Tom

Cam purchases are a sore subject over there right now. You will need to buy the #3 valvetrain upgrade kit which includes the cam.

BTW- Are you using the stock F.I.?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 03:31 PM

#3 will get you going now- if you have and want to keep stock FI it's the best all around alternative..

BTW- this is what it will take to feed a 300 HP daily driver, porkie headed, roller cammed MassIVe engine..

Dual stage injectors, up to 65mm of potential and solid billet
Welcome the X Terminator...

Posted by: cuca914 Jul 16 2007, 03:41 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 02:31 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 03:43 PM

Yes, we are still selling it, if you need the 9550 for your stock FI just order the kit and I'll ensure the 9550 is placed in the shipment... Add your username here to the order and we'll go from there

Posted by: toon1 Jul 16 2007, 05:53 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 02:31 PM)

#3 will get you going now- if you have and want to keep stock FI it's the best all around alternative..

BTW- this is what it will take to feed a 300 HP daily driver, porkie headed, roller cammed MassIVe engine..

Dual stage injectors, up to 65mm of potential and solid billet
Welcome the X Terminator...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 06:05 PM

Two injectors per runner/cylinder.. One down low behind the intake valve for lower revs and another up high for higher RPM. These share load and allow two smaller injectors to be ran for better drivability and all around performance compared to one large single injector..

There isn't a carb on the market that will flow the kind of air that these components allow...

Couple these to the newset 107mm Nickies and 3.3L is a streetable possibility, on pump gas.

We have made serious ground in the past 6 months to say the least.

Posted by: crash914 Jul 16 2007, 06:23 PM

OMG!!

You are really pushing the envelope now!

I do like the 2 stage idea...hmmmm...I could do something like that to my motor..are you going with straight runners or using a plenum?

keep rocking

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 06:29 PM

Individual runners only, a plenum that would feed this engine would be HUGE!!

The envelope is about to burst..
here is our billet, 4340 chromoly crankshaft.....


And the cross section



These are being made next week........

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 06:39 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 12:32 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the reality check Grant, there always has to be an asshole in the crowd and I'd expect nothing less from you.

Who needs the west coast? It could fall off the face of the earth tomorrow and most of the country wouldn't miss it too much.. Remember- We are always 3 hours ahead of you guys and there is nothing you can do about it.

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 16 2007, 06:48 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 04:39 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 06:51 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 05:44 PM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 06:54 PM

I have a nicely built 2056 with the Raby 9550 cam running stock D-jet.
Motor is very nice and torquey, with a bit more redline RPMs.
Going to wring it out this Saturday at it's second AX.
Then in a couple of weeks we go to TH for a nice cool Time Trial....
Central Valley in August, should be a balmy 100* if we are lucky.
Anyway, I will report back on my adventures.
As a daily driver this motor is very nice. Much broader torque curve than the stock 2.0L.

160HP 2056 might be a nice upgrade but I am also looking at a nice 2.2 or so 6.
But if the HP for the 2056 is dependable, it would probably have a much broader torque curve than a small bore 6, so it might be a viable upgrade for my next build.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 06:58 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 16 2007, 05:48 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 04:39 PM)

I'll be the first to let you know when someone in a T4 passes me.

andrew blyholder runs a T4. and if memory serves me right, he has beaten your times more than once ...
Andy

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 07:00 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 16 2007, 05:54 PM)

I have a nicely built 2056 with the Raby 9550 cam running stock D-jet.
Motor is very nice and torquey, with a bit more redline RPMs.
Going to wring it out this Saturday at it's second AX.
Then in a couple of weeks we go to TH for a nice cool Time Trial....
Central Valley in August, should be a balmy 100* if we are lucky.
Anyway, I will report back on my adventures.
As a daily driver this motor is very nice. Much broader torque curve than the stock 2.0L.

160HP 2056 might be a nice upgrade but I am also looking at a nice 2.2 or so 6.
But if the HP for the 2056 is dependable, it would probably have a much broader torque curve than a small bore 6, so it might be a viable upgrade for my next build.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 07:03 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 05:51 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 05:44 PM)

I'm sure your customers here appreciate your opinions on the West Coast. :

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 07:19 PM

it all takes developement....Jake is willing to put in the time and money.

Randal's car should be very nice once he gets the motor into the chassis and works out the bugs....

If his car/motor combination is as good as it looks on paper then it might be very nice indeed.
And yes it will be interesting to see how it does with regard to longevity.

Our history around these parts with highly stressed T4s is less than stellar.

Bill Newlin used to build a new motor at least once a year...
Car was blazingly fast when it ran....

car ran a 1:40.8 at Laguna in '98.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 07:23 PM

Randal's car will be fast and he is working the bugs out now.. BUT the technology he has is now two years old, his heads are not LE series heads.

The engine has already made 200HP, but has more left in it and we are working that out now.

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 16 2007, 07:30 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 04:58 PM)

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 16 2007, 07:33 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 05:58 PM)

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 16 2007, 05:48 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 04:39 PM)

I'll be the first to let you know when someone in a T4 passes me.

andrew blyholder runs a T4. and if memory serves me right, he has beaten your times more than once ...
Andy

Andrew has never tracked the car and he runs big sticky race slicks in AX, I'd run against Andrew on the track any day - No chance he would catch my car in the open. Jake is a bunch of talk. I want to see a T4 go to the track that can pass a well developed six out on TH in the middle of the summer. It wont happen my freind.

..and Andrew and that big T4 didnt complete the Parade because why again? LOL!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 07:40 PM

Our car is built- we tested it at a circle track last thursday and put 100 flawless laps on it, not bad for a car that had never been driven before..

We'll continue working bugs out of it this season and getting used to working together and see what we can do next season in F production..

And a RAT engine finished on the podium this weekend at Watkins Glen in a national SCCA competition...

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 07:43 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 16 2007, 06:30 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 04:58 PM)

I'd run against Andrew on the track any day

and your point is?

so now your "challange" is reduced to a venue of your own choosing?
getting cold feet already?

Andy

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 07:49 PM

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 16 2007, 06:33 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 07:52 PM

We are not shooting for just power, a HUGE reason I am doing the roller lifter and cam work is to reduce the engine's need for oils with large amounts of zinc..

The Porkies heads are being developed for large street engines and prostock VW drag race engines making around 300HP N/A from as little as 2.4L and 15:1 CR with .700 valve lift.

grant is right, AX is largely related to the entire vehicle's arrangement and set up...

Want some proof or longevity, below are some pics of rod bearings and main bearings that saw 6- 45 minute national races and one entire SCCA runoffs, that was 4 solid days of punishment. The engine revs consistently to 8,300 RPM (shift point) and has seen near 9K RPM with these bearings installed. These are Oem bearings that have been running against an Ion nitrided BONE STOCK (and lightened) crank and of course both these processes were "pipe dreams" about 5 years ago when we started developing them together....

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 07:54 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 06:23 PM)

Posted by: sww914 Jul 16 2007, 08:54 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 05:44 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 09:07 PM

And all I need is the right person and the right car with the right attitude... Randal is just one person and while he will be an excellent representative it'll take more than one engine to stop the naysayers.

Honestly, we really have nothing to prove, i have a diverse following that believes in the abilities and thoughts that we create here enough to give us a backlog and throw food on the table and allow us to race and have fun. We functioned well before we ever sold an engine to anyone on the west coast. Now a solid 65% of what we do goes overseas, so it really is a non issue, but it's always to have fun on both coasts.

I just talked to randal, I have decided to come support him on the west coast the first time he runs the car and I expect to see Grant there, so he can tell me how much my over priced RPGs suck to my face. Start planning now grant, excuses won't be entertained ;-)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 09:12 PM

I would be happy to use my car as a test mule for a roller 2056 here on the west coast
No sense putting a nice motor into a rust bucket.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jul 16 2007, 09:13 PM

Seems like Grant has forgotten to take his Meds today.
Mr. "I can write a check to have someone else buld my car"

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 09:21 PM

Dan,
I like your style and your attention to detail- we'll talk.... I am also talking to mc mark tonight and discussing some of these **things**...

I forgot my meds today too- but i did it on purpose :-)

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jul 16 2007, 09:27 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 16 2007, 10:12 PM)

I would be happy to use my car as a test mule for a roller 2056 here on the west coast
No sense putting a nice motor into a rust bucket.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 10:09 PM

QUOTE(Joe Ricard @ Jul 16 2007, 07:13 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 10:22 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 07:07 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 10:29 PM

Ok, you find me, or I'll find you, one way or the other we'll be getting some eyeball contact before too long...

What Randal does with his car is up to him, just wanted to let you know that I'll be in the neighborhood and would love for you to tell me how much I suck.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 10:30 PM

LOL! RPG = Raby Powered Grenade.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 10:31 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 08:29 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 10:33 PM

Yep, phone call works fine- I am here right now at 706 892 8192

You just now figured out the RPG comment, damn I hope your car is faster than it's driver.

Posted by: McMark Jul 16 2007, 10:42 PM

You guys are funny.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 16 2007, 10:46 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 08:33 PM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 11:01 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 08:21 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 11:04 PM

Cheap bastard. I don't know if cell phones accept collect calls, but you can try...

Dan, keep an eye out and once you are ready for some enhancements we'll see what can come of it.. BUT the stock FI has to go.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 11:07 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 10:04 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2007, 11:12 PM

MS would work with the motorcycle T/B set up or a nice pair of jenveys...

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 10:12 PM)

Posted by: Brando Jul 16 2007, 11:23 PM

I'd love to be sponsored with a forced-induction raby rocket to go against grant... wink wink nudge nudge...

Well, it was worth a try

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 16 2007, 11:28 PM

QUOTE(Brando @ Jul 16 2007, 10:23 PM)

I'd love to be sponsored with a forced-induction raby rocket to go against grant... wink wink nudge nudge...

Well, it was worth a try

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 12:17 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 16 2007, 10:28 PM)

QUOTE(Brando @ Jul 16 2007, 10:23 PM)

I'd love to be sponsored with a forced-induction raby rocket to go against grant... wink wink nudge nudge...

Well, it was worth a try

don't need forced induction....just give me 160HP and a nice flat torque curve and a matched gear box and I will take care of business.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 17 2007, 12:36 AM

Grant and I both know that the big boys play in SCCA for track events..

In five years we'll have a 3.6L TIV, hell more than likely it'll be sooner than that!

I'd dare say that our little 1832cc F prod legal engine makes as much net popwer as that 2.4 six and it has tiny valvesand is limited by the GCR with little tiny 40mm carbs and measley 36mm venturis..

Wanna talk a big hot track?? Visit Road Atlanta on a July afternoon and you'll be sweating your California ass off.

Posted by: gregrobbins Jul 17 2007, 12:47 AM

Type IV powered car that whipped a bunch of sixes.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: craig downs Jul 17 2007, 01:10 AM

As the saying goes "when the green flag drops the bullshit stops"

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 01:22 AM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 16 2007, 11:36 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 17 2007, 01:25 AM

Morning is going great- talking to McMark about rollers as we speak ;-)

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 17 2007, 09:40 AM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 16 2007, 06:49 PM)

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 16 2007, 06:33 PM)

When did Jake just become a "bunch of talk"? He has sponsored several cars with engines and is building a car along with his parts/engine business.

soon a T4 will pass your ass! as someone will take on the challenge.

I havent seen a single Raby sponsored car run long enough for me to worry. Bring it on. Until then the SIX is the track king in the West.

And which Raby rebuild are you on again?

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Jul 17 2007, 11:07 AM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 17 2007, 12:25 AM)

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jul 17 2007, 11:42 AM

Please take this to the Paddock





















So I can shut it down

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2007, 12:12 PM

QUOTE(ChrisNPDrider @ Jul 17 2007, 10:07 AM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 17 2007, 12:25 AM)

Morning is going great- talking to McMark about rollers as we speak ;-)

Whew - we're making progress
Not that I don't love all the bench racin, BS slingin, internet enabled cock fights
I've always felt this web site had very high entertainment value
Jake - keep up the good work!
Grant - the 6 vs. 4 debate is always the most entertaining, thanks for bringin it back from the dead

Now who has a track prepped Suby powered 914 to make this debate more interesting? 2.5 L, 300 HP, and almost as light as a TIV

Posted by: nebreitling Jul 17 2007, 12:19 PM

valid point -- especially about the driver -- but nieslony's car is not setup for the big track. i suspect it would bake and break.


jake, you want to make a big point about the longevity on your motors on the west coast? let's run one in the 25 hours of Thunderhill. between club/world sites, you'll have enough talented drivers and crew members to make it happen.

Posted by: Steve Thacker Jul 17 2007, 12:53 PM

Sounds like a pissing contest to me. I always heard self bragging was half scandal.
OK Jake its time for the talking to stop. You know the deal. Call the mans bluff and lets get this shit overwith.
Spank him and put his car on the trailer for home. You certainly have more patience than I with mouthy rude people.
I suppose I still have too much aggression in me to tolerate supposed tough guys hiding behind a keyboard.

Grant lets do this shall we? First off coming into a public forum and start off being rude and nasty is not the way to make you look steller in your opinions.
Frankly it makes me think you are an ass. You want to call Jake out as a gentleman then all is ok, that is fair. I don't know Jake from a whole in the ground., but I know that he is NOT a liar, cheat or sells sub standard products to line his pockets. Jake doesn't strike me as a greedy person. He is a purposeful person until his proof of concepts bear fruit and show to be reliable. Been that way as long as I have seen him post her and elsewhere. So, cut the shit with the attitude and step up.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 01:22 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 11:12 AM)

Seems like they settled that 6 vs. 4 debate at Parade a couple weeks back... Wide open course, top 6 slingers, TypeIV TTOD...

Oh wait... It was the driver? Yep thats it. It was all the driver...

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 01:33 PM

QUOTE(Steve Thacker @ Jul 17 2007, 11:53 AM)

Posted by: hwgunner Jul 17 2007, 02:01 PM

Grant, just curious-- What are your best times for T-Hill and willowsprings. How about for Buttonwillow and Laguna? BTW, I was watching some vids last nght that you posted and they were great.

Posted by: Twystd1 Jul 17 2007, 02:35 PM

THIS IS GREAT STUFF...!!!!!!!

Kinda reminds me of the Grumpy Jenkins / Gene Snow days.

Talking trash. And showing up at the track to show who is the real deal.

It is this kind of talk that now has the 4 cylinder Hondas in the 6s in the quarter mile.

Keep it up.......

I will come and pit for any of you guys. On my dime.
I have lots of experience at that.

Cheers,

Clayton

Posted by: sww914 Jul 17 2007, 03:01 PM

If you guys both show up at Laguna, Buttonwillow, or Willow springs, I'll come lend a hand. I might even bring my T4 powered racecar and blow it up since I'll have a 6 soon.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2007, 03:47 PM

QUOTE(nebreitling @ Jul 17 2007, 11:19 AM)

Posted by: sww914 Jul 17 2007, 03:55 PM

At Willow Springs I've seen the track surface at 165 degrees on a 105 degree day. It doesn't take much to warm up your tires on that kind of a day.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jul 17 2007, 04:06 PM

You say that road Atlanta does not get hot?
Jump back big guy. It gets plenty effin hot. Do you not get the weather channel over there on the left coast?

Posted by: Steve Thacker Jul 17 2007, 05:18 PM

Grant talk the shit if you must. Step up and make the challenge formal.
Otherwise you are just running your suck.

Raby get with the proving. Surely you have something in your cache to make this situation go away.

Posted by: mike souza Jul 17 2007, 05:23 PM

ok first off

Biggy,

Tupac,

stop with the east coast west coast crap.
it isn't getting anyone anywhere & frankly its just making you both look like children.

there are people with great ability in both camps so that argument is weak.

as far as power & longevity are concerned, bickering on the internet wont prove a thing.

just get to a track & get it over with. please.

my $.02

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 05:49 PM

QUOTE(Joe Ricard @ Jul 17 2007, 03:06 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 17 2007, 05:59 PM

Grant, do you still have 4cyl mounts in your car?

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 06:27 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 02:47 PM)

Posted by: hwgunner Jul 17 2007, 06:32 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 17 2007, 04:59 PM)

Grant, do you still have 4cyl mounts in your car?

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 06:33 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 17 2007, 04:59 PM)

Grant, do you still have 4cyl mounts in your car?

Posted by: hwgunner Jul 17 2007, 06:36 PM

QUOTE(hwgunner @ Jul 17 2007, 01:01 PM)

Grant, just curious-- What are your best times for T-Hill and willowsprings. How about for Buttonwillow and Laguna? BTW, I was watching some vids last nght that you posted and they were great.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 06:44 PM

QUOTE(hwgunner @ Jul 17 2007, 05:36 PM)

QUOTE(hwgunner @ Jul 17 2007, 01:01 PM)

Grant, just curious-- What are your best times for T-Hill and willowsprings. How about for Buttonwillow and Laguna? BTW, I was watching some vids last nght that you posted and they were great.

Grant,just wondering if you saw this??

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 17 2007, 06:45 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:27 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 02:47 PM)

...Put that Raby Roller Cam Motor in Steve's car and put it out on the track. I think it might be a contest. Jake builds for longevity as well as power.
Steve would in my opinion be the last guy on earth to say he will beat you every time. In fact I think he would be delighted if Joy beat him!
Not sure if Steve has done or has an interest in doing track days...

I have spent a good deal of time in Georgia. My parents finished their careers there. It is just as hot and 70+% humid there all the time. I am not sure any point about West Coast weather is valid in contrast. Certainly a consideration but nothing they don't experience in Georgia.

We certainly do have the talented drivers and crew to make a point if Jake wanted to do that...

Dr Dodger? What the...? ..youre not going to help me prove T4's suck? Man! What a trader! Its a lonley road I drive trying to talk some sense into you T4 fanatics. FYI its going to take more than Steve's car and a roller cam to jump on a hot Califonia track and beat 914-6 in a day long test of reliability and top end power.

I like Nathans idea if you all think Raby roller cam T4's are so great, pool your best T4 drivers, your money (lots of it) and drive the NASA 25 hours of T Hill. Guess what? It will never happen as Jake wouldnt risk everyone seeing the reality of a cooked T4 motor so early in a race. FYI a real Porsche motor powered car won the 25 hour event last year. ...Let me see ...do I want to race a car with a German engineered motorsport engine or some hopped up VW motor with roller cams bult in a barn by some kook in Georgia? If it was my money I'd bet on the Porsche engineered six motor having a chance of winning a 25 hour race. Seems to me all the proof in the world shows Porsche six cylinder motors winning real professional races as opposed to a couple T4's racing in silly amatuer fly weight SCCA stuff where skill levels are suspect at best.

Maybe in ten years Jake will have a real motor with some actual accomplishments behind it in professional motorsports, but right now its just a bunch of puffy chested talk from our overall clad buddy. I still say no way no how is a V Dub T4 with roller cams a substitute for a well developed six cylinder Porsche motor with its far superior racing heritage and pedigree. Its going to take some proof to change my mind. I have tasted the sweet refined nector of the Porsche™ Six and I cant say I'm willing to go back to the T4 bathwater swill any time soon.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 07:00 PM

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 17 2007, 05:45 PM)

Geez Grant, take a history lesson. Porsche AG did all the design engineering for the type 4 engine for VW. Yep VW did mass produce it but its a 4 cylinder design that was done a few years after the six was designed. Porsche has poured tons of money into the six engine design now for 40 years and Jake has done alot of out of pocket engineering in his backwoods shack for 10 years taking the 4 to new levels. Why dog him???
They are both freakin engines and who cares what the hell is stamped on the valve covers like is means anything magic.....
With Nikkies, roller lifters and CNC heads I know a type 4 will last your so called "test" as it will have all the advantages a six has.

Posted by: Steve Thacker Jul 17 2007, 07:24 PM

You come off as some elitist with references to Jake as if he is nothing more than some country bumpkin in coveralls. Like he is beneath you in some way. He works harder than just about anyone, to better the aircooled arena for all of us. His enthusiasm is unparalleled and his knowledge is above many. He walks the walk and talks the talk. I have yet for you to tell any of us what you have built or contributed with your own hands to the group as a whole. Or would that hurt your manicure?

Obviously you also have to use witty euphemisms to try and make your candy ass feel superior. I'll bet you were born with your pinky in the air. Does your mommy powder your shorts for you before each race , to keep you from chafing?

I'd like to get eyeball to eyeball with you also. I'd love nothing more to give you a unforgettable reminder how to respect people. Obviously your parents seriously failed teaching you courtesy. If you have nothing to say good..then say nothing.

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 17 2007, 07:33 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 04:33 PM)

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 17 2007, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM)

Posted by: dinomium Jul 17 2007, 07:47 PM

I don't get threads the fall apart like this. I mean, come ON! You want it, then great GO BUY IT! You can have an RSR and go real fast for a real long time.
Now for a 35 + year old car, anything goes, you no like? bugger off then, already!
Jeebuz, I just don't get some peoples kids!

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 07:52 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 17 2007, 06:36 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM)

Can you list any factory backed professional motorsport campaigns by Porsche with the VW T4?

actually, yes, there was ... just ask Rich Bontempi about that ...
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 17 2007, 07:59 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:52 PM)

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 17 2007, 06:36 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM)

Can you list any factory backed professional motorsport campaigns by Porsche with the VW T4?

actually, yes, there was ... just ask Rich Bontempi about that ...
Andy

I'm afraid youre mistaken.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2007, 08:06 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:27 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 02:47 PM)

...Put that Raby Roller Cam Motor in Steve's car and put it out on the track. I think it might be a contest. Jake builds for longevity as well as power.
Steve would in my opinion be the last guy on earth to say he will beat you every time. In fact I think he would be delighted if Joy beat him!
Not sure if Steve has done or has an interest in doing track days...

I have spent a good deal of time in Georgia. My parents finished their careers there. It is just as hot and 70+% humid there all the time. I am not sure any point about West Coast weather is valid in contrast. Certainly a consideration but nothing they don't experience in Georgia.

We certainly do have the talented drivers and crew to make a point if Jake wanted to do that...

Dr Dodger? What the...? ..youre not going to help me prove T4's suck? Man! What a trader! Its a lonley road I drive trying to talk some sense into you T4 fanatics. FYI its going to take more than Steve's car and a roller cam to jump on a hot Califonia track and beat 914-6 in a day long test of reliability and top end power.

I like Nathans idea if you all think Raby roller cam T4's are so great, pool your best T4 drivers, your money (lots of it) and drive the NASA 25 hours of T Hill. Guess what? It will never happen as Jake wouldnt risk everyone seeing the reality of a cooked T4 motor so early in a race. FYI a real Porsche motor powered car won the 25 hour event last year. ...Let me see ...do I want to race a car with a German engineered motorsport engine or some hopped up VW motor with roller cams bult in a barn by some kook in Georgia? If it was my money I'd bet on the Porsche engineered six motor having a chance of winning a 25 hour race. Seems to me all the proof in the world shows Porsche six cylinder motors winning real professional races as opposed to a couple T4's racing in silly amatuer fly weight SCCA stuff where skill levels are suspect at best.

Maybe in ten years Jake will have a real motor with some actual accomplishments behind it in professional motorsports, but right now its just a bunch of puffy chested talk from our overall clad buddy. I still say no way no how is a V Dub T4 with roller cams a substitute for a well developed six cylinder Porsche motor with its far superior racing heritage and pedigree. Its going to take some proof to change my mind. I have tasted the sweet refined nector of the Porsche™ Six and I cant say I'm willing to go back to the T4 bathwater swill any time soon.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 08:07 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 17 2007, 06:59 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:52 PM)

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 17 2007, 06:36 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM)

Can you list any factory backed professional motorsport campaigns by Porsche with the VW T4?

actually, yes, there was ... just ask Rich Bontempi about that ...
Andy

I'm afraid youre mistaken.

by all means, don't take my word for it! ask him next time you see him ...

back in the day when Scott Yeaman was working Pit-Crew for Rich.
i'll let him tell you how he was approached by porsche and asked if they could sponsor him. and they did.

but like i said, Rich is much better at telling those stories than i am, so go ahead, ask him ...
Andy

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2007, 08:14 PM

At around the same time Rich Bontempi was approached and supported by Porsche there was another autocrosser in Northern California approached by Porsche. Dwight Mitchell was a factory supported autocrosser. This gives credence to Rich Bontempi's story that the factory was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Dwight Mitchell's old orange 911 is still around Northern California. It is so clean and sexy people want to lick it... Still fast too.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 17 2007, 08:16 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 07:14 PM)

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2007, 08:18 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 17 2007, 07:16 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 07:14 PM)

At around the same time Rich Bontempi was approached and supported by Porsche there was another autocrosser in Northern California approached by Porsche. Dwight Mitchell was a factory supported autocrosser. This gives credence to Rich Bontempi's story that the factory was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Dwight Mitchell's old orange 911 is still around Northern California. It is so clean and sexy people want to lick it... Still fast too.

Ah but Dwight's car be a trick slick Six...
and Rich's effort was SCCA I believe.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 17 2007, 08:23 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 07:18 PM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 17 2007, 07:16 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 07:14 PM)

At around the same time Rich Bontempi was approached and supported by Porsche there was another autocrosser in Northern California approached by Porsche. Dwight Mitchell was a factory supported autocrosser. This gives credence to Rich Bontempi's story that the factory was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Dwight Mitchell's old orange 911 is still around Northern California. It is so clean and sexy people want to lick it... Still fast too.

Ah but Dwight's car be a trick slick Six...
and Rich's effort was SCCA I believe.

Yes. Dwight's car was a six. My point was that Porsche was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 08:24 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 07:14 PM)

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2007, 08:33 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 07:24 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 17 2007, 07:14 PM)

At around the same time Rich Bontempi was approached and supported by Porsche there was another autocrosser in Northern California approached by Porsche. Dwight Mitchell was a factory supported autocrosser. This gives credence to Rich Bontempi's story that the factory was supporting more grassroot efforts...

Dwight Mitchell's old orange 911 is still around Northern California. It is so clean and sexy people want to lick it... Still fast too.

No Dr. Dodger. Dwight was sponsored by a local Porsche Audi dealership and his car was not even close to a profesional factory Porsche race team car. It was an incredible amatuer racing car effort.

You must have forgeten I was at AX and SCCA races he competed in back in the 70's. He did kick everyones butt in AX.

Creative history rewrite however!

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 17 2007, 08:52 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 06:07 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 10:11 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 17 2007, 06:52 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 06:07 PM)

Thats not a factory campaign based professional team in a real race series.

and you would know that how? sniffing too much looking at that crystal meth ball again?

you seem to have no trouble trash talking things you don't know anything about.

like i said above, ask Rich about it. i doubt you will ... just a hunch ...
Andy

Posted by: McMark Jul 17 2007, 10:36 PM

I'm guessing Grant is laughing his ass off about how worked up you guys sound.

Anyway... a big ol' from me.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 17 2007, 10:50 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 17 2007, 08:36 PM)

I'm guessing Grant is laughing his ass off about how worked up you guys sound.

Anyway... a big ol' from me.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 17 2007, 11:16 PM

like you is some factory backed race team......

The T4 was never meant to be a race engine, just VW's modern workhorse replacing the T1. Since the muchco special 914/6's didn't sell for shit and sat rotting on the docks, Porsche did a rush engine program to build a 4 banger replacement, the 2.0L type 4.
Porsche also dropped the Factory 6 race program then as all the racing didn't sell cars.

The fact is Jake and a few others are taking the type 4 to a new level, sorry you can't see that.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jul 17 2007, 11:25 PM

Mark hit it on the head.

Grant is sitting at home laughing at how worked up everyone is getting.

He has been playing Devil's Advocate and you guys keep going for it.
You have to admit he gets everyone thinking about it, now, doesn't he?

Posted by: craig downs Jul 18 2007, 12:17 AM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:44 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 18 2007, 12:28 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jul 17 2007, 09:25 PM)

Posted by: pete-stevers Jul 18 2007, 12:35 AM

had to check in on the drama.....again..........
nite nite.....
nite jake
nite grant....
and every one inbetween

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 18 2007, 12:42 AM

QUOTE(craig downs @ Jul 17 2007, 10:17 PM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jul 17 2007, 05:44 PM)

I have driven Laguna Seca twice. And Infineon 4 times. Cant remember my time as times are fairly irrelevant to me. Think I did something in the 1:50ish range on Laguna ...maybe less?

Its funny how you don't think lap times are important. How do you test or make changes to your set up and know there faster.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jul 18 2007, 01:27 AM

I love it when all the "experts" get together and have all these inane arguments. Hey! 6, 4, V8. Who gives a rats ass. If you like it, drive it. I have a 4 and a six and there are things I like about each. To say that one is better than the other is horse $hit.

Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 06:51 AM

I purposely laid off this topic yesterday to see what would happen, the thread went from an informative one about technology that has NEVER been utilized in the TIV engine before to just another 4/6 debate with the same old players jumping in.

First off, let's establish the fact that Grant's posts about my engines are unsubstantiated, he has never purchased an engine from me, but we did chat and go over pricing and etc over two years ago. He has never driven one of these engines and is using his inflated opinion to degrade my work.

The next point: I have never specialized in race engines, I FUCKING HATE to build them, I hate them so much and the issues that they can cause that Len and I decided to build our own car to use for R&D work and to race our engines so others didn't have to. We all know that the ability of an engine on the track is utilized by those in my world to further their product awareness more than anything, generally when the cars and engines that are being raced don't share much at all with their streetable counterparts.

In my experience, racers are not tuners- when people look at a failed engine that occured during competetition one must realize that the builder had a role in that engine's life, but that the tuner/installer had much more to do with it. Some of the dumbest mistakes we have ever seen have been made by racers, some that have been racing for over 20 years and still don't know what a lean engine smells like, how to tune by EGT or how to flush an oil system and pre oil an engine before restart. ALL my work can literally be wasted by one stupid oil system routing choice and no matter how much I preach about set up racers don't listen until they have a problem.

These reasons coupled to the fact that the amount of effort that is necessary to build a race engine correctly are the main reasons why I turn down most every race engine I could build, we now only support two racers and our own effort due to this.

Of course we have built our own car to campaign in SCCA, F production. Len and I have teamed up to divide the cost and responsibility and he is going to be the driver. My entire responsibility is to build and tune the engine (s). I am doing this because I have to, not really because I want to, gathering the data from this is important to my program development. As always the old slogan "Win on Sunday, sale on Monday" comes into play, this is the job I love and one that I want to do and continue to grow for the rest of my life so I must sometimes do a few things that I don't like to be able to continue this.

When we are at the track I won't be there to joke around, have fun, bullshit or drink beer- from the minute I pull into that gate I consider the event a combat zone with every single competitor the enemy, combat is not a social event. If anyone ever passes by our paddock I'll warn you now that I won't be up for much conversation, I'll shake your hand and get back to work and thats the extent of what you should expect to get from me because I'll be in my zone with one objective on my mind and that objective won't be making friends.


As a final point I want to bring up something that Grant said earlier about my engines being used in professional motorsports... Well, that is never going to happen, everyone we deal with are enthusiasts, some more serious than others but none on a level anywhere near being professional. Last I checked professional's didn't race 30+ year old cars for anything more than to have a good time.

I have much more fun and have developed my program especially for the street car enthuisiast that just wants to have good reliable fun. I could care less about championships, race wins or anything else involved with competition. What makes me happy is designing an engine that develops 100HP more than it did in stock form and can be driven 3,450 miles at an average speed of 76 MPH and maintain COOLER than stock head, oil and exhaust gas temps in every climate from Georgia to the midwest and through the desert. Doing these things and never needing a wrench placed on the engine for the entire trip is what I consider an accomplishment. Going from one side of the country to the other while doing these things and being able to accomplish a 94 MPH 1/4 mile pass on a 95 degree day just tops that off.

Someone earlier mentions that "Jake is a country bumpkin"... I'll proudly take that title because I grew up on the same piece of property where my facility is located today, I could have stayed in California but I chose to get back away from the crowds, stupid laws and etc. Call me a country bumpkin all you want, but I'll take my freedom and the things I appreciate from it any day over what I experienced on the west coast or any of the 19 countries I visited while serving the country that we all should be proud to live in.

I personally like walking out the back door of my shop to hear crickets and watch the 8 point white tail buck that I have been trying to get in my sights for the past few seasons.

So.....I'll continue doing the things I do and people like Grant will continue inspiring me to do these things, develop these engines and get the job done. It takes time, money, perseverence and enthusiasm to overcome the challenges that I face daily with this type of development and that all equates to months and years of effort and I love every damn minute of it.

I appreciate the criticism and moreover I appreciate the extra little bit of drama that Grant tossed into the thread that kept people coming back for more- nothing get us new inquiries like a promoter like Grant and it's entertaining!

Posted by: toon1 Jul 18 2007, 09:54 AM

Well said Jake, keep up the good work. I have been following this thread, I think you took the high road by laying off it.

Posted by: 914nerd Jul 18 2007, 11:09 AM

Well said indeed
I think that all of us (the 6 fanatics included) should appreciate the efforts you have made in developing the Type IV engine. That work has the potential to make a car that is a blast to drive on the street and on the track and yet has a reliability the same or greater than the original. The more improvements we can make on these cars, the more of these cars will stay on the road year after year. And that is really what this club is about, right?
It's about the people, sure, but it's the cars that led to the creation of the group.
We all share a love of these cars that has led to long nights, busted knuckles, and more frustration that we thought possible. I daresay also that we all share that feeling when you get behind the wheel and just drive (or in the case of people in the midst of a long conversion, sit behind the wheel and imagine that your car isn't on jackstands ).
But, bicker if you will. And to contibute I suggest adding another topic of discussion (in addition to Type IV, Porsche 6, Other 6, V8, Porsche V8, Subie, Chevy, other 4, and so forth): The human powered 914. It may be slow, but it uses no gas, it complies with even the most stringent of smog regulations, and is good for the health of the person "driving." So make your 914 environmentally friendly. Take out that pesky engine and start pushing it today!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 11:56 AM

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jul 18 2007, 12:03 PM

I hope I'm not asking a question that's already been asked 10,000 times before but is a billet rocker really superior to a cast one & why? Or is it more economical/practical to make a custom rocker out of a piece of billet over casting one?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 12:25 PM

People keep confusing roller rockers and roller cams/lifters.. This post is about roller cams and lifters, we haven't discussed the rockers at this point.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 18 2007, 01:03 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 04:51 AM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 01:14 PM

Just figured I'd share the dyno graph we just snagged from a freshly prepped 2056 TIV. This power was made on 87 octane pump gas with only 8.1:1 CR, it was designed to run on this octane, but I onl;y promised the customer 125HP and 120 lbs of torque.

This was made on the very first run, I am sure it still has 10% more left in tuning alone.



Keep in mind this is a bone stock (2.0) bottom end with just a set of 96s, RAT 9010 flat tappet cam and LE 160 heads. Not bad for an engine that with 70cc less displacement made 40% less power.
Just figured I'd use this opportunity to share a bit, thanks again to Grant for keeping the thread going strong :-)

Posted by: Lavanaut Jul 18 2007, 02:46 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 12:14 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 03:41 PM

This one belongs in a VW thing :-)

Posted by: JohnM Jul 18 2007, 03:57 PM

Since we are talking about air-cooled engines, these dyno results should include a head temperature plot. A stock 2.0 HT baseline would be handy as well. Blah blah blah lots of reasons it wouldn't be accurate, correct, why it can't be done, etc..., but the bottom line is it would give a potential buyer some kind of reference and give some indication the engine could make that power-- not just across a parking lot before it melts but also hold up for a competitive endurance run. John

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jul 18 2007, 04:44 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 02:25 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 18 2007, 04:50 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 12:14 PM)

Posted by: McMark Jul 18 2007, 04:53 PM

QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jul 18 2007, 03:44 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 02:25 PM)

People keep confusing roller rockers and roller cams/lifters.. This post is about roller cams and lifters, we haven't discussed the rockers at this point.

Jake, I am confused, but not about rockers. Is not your second post in this thread filled w/ a bunch of pictures of a billett rocker? All I wanted to know was why billett over cast?

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jul 18 2007, 04:58 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 18 2007, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jul 18 2007, 03:44 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 02:25 PM)

People keep confusing roller rockers and roller cams/lifters.. This post is about roller cams and lifters, we haven't discussed the rockers at this point.

Jake, I am confused, but not about rockers. Is not your second post in this thread filled w/ a bunch of pictures of a billett rocker? All I wanted to know was why billett over cast?

Stock rockers are notoriously bad in terms of accurate ratio. It take a large sampling and a lot of measuring to find 8 nearly identical stock rockers. These billet rockers will not have the same issue. 8 identical billet rockers, right out of the 'box'.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jul 18 2007, 05:14 PM

QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jul 18 2007, 03:58 PM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 18 2007, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Jul 18 2007, 03:44 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 02:25 PM)

People keep confusing roller rockers and roller cams/lifters.. This post is about roller cams and lifters, we haven't discussed the rockers at this point.

Jake, I am confused, but not about rockers. Is not your second post in this thread filled w/ a bunch of pictures of a billett rocker? All I wanted to know was why billett over cast?

Stock rockers are notoriously bad in terms of accurate ratio. It take a large sampling and a lot of measuring to find 8 nearly identical stock rockers. These billet rockers will not have the same issue. 8 identical billet rockers, right out of the 'box'.

So billett is superior over cast because of consistancy. Thanks, I did not know this.

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jul 18 2007, 05:22 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Jul 18 2007, 07:14 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 18 2007, 05:50 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 04:51 AM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 06:20 PM

We are using billet to make the new rockers for several reasons...
One is the production numbers we will see, tooling up to make these rockers from a forging would cost well over 100K, the die alone would be 35K of that easily.

Another reason is for versatility, we can alter rocker design with the drawings, upload the program change and make 8 rockers that are one off- for my style of engine building versatility in components is crucial, so this is a huge plus.

The rocker can also be made exactly how we want it, we can make rockers lighter or heavier and we can make them from Titanium, Ally, Chromoly or stainless steel- yet again versatility is crucial as these could go on a low rebvving hogh torque engine or a 9,000 RPM screamer and both those applications requires a different mindset and different components.
Having 100% total control over a component is a dream world for a guy like me.

the MAIN reason these are being made is the fact that the supply of 1.7 style rockers are drying up, the core cost for these components is approaching the cost of these billet units and with the used set ups you still have to modify them, pick 8 of the closest ratio possible and that takes time and time is a precious commodity.

John my dyno sessions are not about power, they are about efficiency and finding the point where the engine is fully optimized with it's tuning. We always find the sweet spot for CHT, EGT, oil temp and overall power output and generally shoot for the flattest, fattest torque curve possible as well- not the highest HP that we can attain.

I have temperature plots for all my engines, here is 3,450 miles worth of graphs for you to absorb www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry look at all the legs of that trip and become amazed, those temps were derived with my Race-technology 16 channel data logger on my most recent R&D trip crosscountry in mid 2006. Here is an example, keep in mind that was a 2270cc, 170HP engine that was built for the Hot VWs magazine feature story "Type 4 Torquer". Look at the average sppeds and the distance, thats pretty hard to do in a 40 year old Beetle with a 4 speed tranny.



here are some temps, pay attention to the temperature average as well as the delta between cylinder head temps, my biggest CHT variance over the entire trip data logged was 18 degrees


I take this same approach with all our new engine base combinations, we know more about these engines than a Heart Surgeon knows during a bypass surgery if we are on the new dyno expanded with our data logger in place- no joke. I am a data freak that builds engines that run COOLER than stock while making double the usable power and thats all in the combo!




Yes, I take thise as serious as life it's self and know when we create a combination and tune it that it can't be done any better, by anyone.

Posted by: SGB Jul 18 2007, 06:34 PM

I've got to quit drooling on the keyboard....

Posted by: JohnM Jul 18 2007, 08:33 PM

Jake- OK, yeah that is what I would call comprehensive data! Thanks for posting it. John

Posted by: fat73 Jul 18 2007, 09:11 PM

I don't post here often, but I couldn't resist. I must say that this has been enteratining. Jake...for a minute there I thought somehow you might have become related to or actually turned into George Hussey....

I applaud Jake for his work to make the Type IVs a better powerplant, even though I think it costs way too much. Given the money it would have cost me to go to an oil-leaking six, or as Grant says an RPG, I decided to go with proven power and reliability, the Subie WRX.....blasphemy... However, for the purists, nobody I know of has the smarts to squeeze the hp / torque out of these engines for street cars than Jake does, IF you're willing to pay for it. I considered it, but it wasn't for me. None of the 3 (or more) options is cheap.

Grant.... not that it matters, or is relevant to this thread, but I doubt seriously that your 2.4 six could outrun my 914/WRX down the back straight at Sebring....or for that matter anywhere else. I can drive it all day over 100mph and it will not get over 190 degrees, and get 30mpg but that's a different topic.

Almost forgot......Jake...do us all a favor. If you're ever within arms length, give Left-Coast Grant a good 'ol Southern Devil Dog punch in the mouth, would you? I have a son who's a Marine, and anybody who insults the Marines or the military around me is likely to get their ass kicked, whether they mean it or not. Grant deserves a whooping even if he wasn't serious.

AND.....Grant...just so you'll know, many of us here are "country bumpkins" too. I'm not from Georgia, but Tennessee, AND I have been known to wear OVERALLS when I WORK ON MY OWN CAR.

Anyway...thanks for the entertainment. Added a couple of years to my life (laughter).

Ed aka W9R1
1973 914/2003 WRX power

Posted by: fat73 Jul 18 2007, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(fat73 @ Jul 18 2007, 07:11 PM)

I don't post here often, but I couldn't resist. I must say that this has been enteratining. Jake...for a minute there I thought somehow you might have become related to or actually turned into George Hussey....

I applaud Jake for his work to make the Type IVs a better powerplant, even though I think it costs way too much. Given the money it would have cost me to go to an oil-leaking six, or as Grant says an RPG, I decided to go with proven power and reliability, the Subie WRX.....blasphemy... However, for the purists, nobody I know of has the smarts to squeeze the hp / torque out of these engines for street cars than Jake does, IF you're willing to pay for it. I considered it, but it wasn't for me. None of the 3 (or more) options is cheap.

Grant.... not that it matters, or is relevant to this thread, but I doubt seriously that your 2.4 six could outrun my 914/WRX down the back straight at Sebring....or for that matter anywhere else. I can drive it all day over 100mph and it will not get over 190 degrees, and get 30mpg but that's a different topic.

Almost forgot......Jake...do us all a favor. If you're ever within arms length, give Left-Coast Grant a good 'ol Southern Devil Dog punch in the mouth, would you? I have a son who's a Marine, and anybody who insults the Marines or the military around me is likely to get their ass kicked, whether they mean it or not. Grant deserves a whooping even if he wasn't serious.

AND.....Grant...just so you'll know, many of us here are "country bumpkins" too. I'm not from Georgia, but Tennessee, AND I have been known to wear OVERALLS when I WORK ON MY OWN CAR.

Anyway...thanks for the entertainment. Added a couple of years to my life (laughter).

Ed aka W9R1
1973 914/2003 WRX power

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2007, 10:13 PM

Ed, thanks for the post... As we have stated a few times in this thread the performance for most "sane" engines built via MassIVe theory have been dropping a tad. Most of the items that run the ciosts up are not internal engine parts, a good example is that ne wWeber carbs now cost around 1K bucks, etc, etc.

Some of my engines are just insane, i sometimes look at the money that some people are shelling out on an engine in disbelief, some of the cars these engines are going into are 85-100K buck Beetles believe it or not! ^Today a good running, restored early VW Bus starts at around 25-30K and they are selling like mad!

What we have done is oncrease the performance for the cost, since inflation keeps us from dropping prices at least we can add power, which reduces the cost Vs output aspect. Mycomplete engine prices have not went up in 3 years, but todays 2270cc engine makes 30-40 HP MORE than it did even 2.5 years ago- at the same cost.

A good example is this 2056 I have pictured and described. This engine could easily be sold in kit form for just over 4K bucks with CNC heads, all necessary components for a complete longblock. Keep in mind that most Porsche shops are building BONE STOCK, totally undeveloped engines for 6.5-7K today, one particular 914 specialty shop is now getting 8K for a bone stock rebuild- for 8K we can get 160HP in complete trim, so if you do the comparisons what we are doing is CHEAPER and SMARTER than most everyone thinks.

Posted by: fat73 Jul 18 2007, 10:38 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 18 2007, 08:13 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 19 2007, 12:01 AM

The only thing that causes oil leaks is improper sealants, inadequate preparation or lack of crankcase ventilation.

IOf an engine leaks one drop of oil on the dyno it doesn't leave my shop, we have had engines wth pushrod tubes start lleaking oil because the engine was so dry underneath that the tubes actually rusted through!

Oil leakage has never been an issue for us, even my tired old 5 year old 130K mile 912E engine will only leak a spot the size of a quarter after being parked for 2-3 weeks or longer.

Posted by: milnersXcoupe Dec 13 2007, 01:07 AM

In the Mid 1970s the BMW motorcycle Importer Butler & Smith fielded a trio of
R90S racers for the Superbike series - flat twin engines - not unlike the VW 4 engines.

Udo Gietl fitted these pushrod motors with Roller Lifters sourced from Harley Davidson - machined the cases for the Harley Guide Plates - had Chase Knight @ Crane Camshafts come up with profiles & cut roller camshafts for the engines.

DAYTONA 1975 had 1-2-3 being the BMW flat twins winning against the 4 cyl. Kawasaki monsters of the era.


Since you're crafting your own cylinder heads - think of providing some 'Rev-Kit' springs between the lifter and rocker arms.

This will keep the lifter in constant contact with the cam lobe - and control the weight of the lifter rather than having to run heavier valve springs.

What are you using to control 'cam walk' - ?


Compliments on your efforts !

Posted by: milnersXcoupe Dec 13 2007, 01:13 AM

"Dang....I wish the prices of the 914s would go up like the buses...

Ed aka W9R1" -[end quote]-



The 914 are what the 356 were of their time - cheap - allowing enthusiasts to participate - whereas the 911 rules out anything but cubic money.

I am very glad the 914 prices are Not escalating - elsewise - I'd go back to working on my AMC Gremlin

Posted by: Rand Dec 13 2007, 01:26 AM

Grant, do you and Jake chat offline and laugh about this $hit??
Wow. This is always entertaining.
Grant: Arr.
Jake: I'm glad you keep putting up with Grant. He can talk all he wants. There's no arguing with your results.
Grant: Wait, what if Jake started building sixes? Hmmm. Wait, never mind. Next one's on me. Woot. This is fun!!!
Hey, I have an idea. We should all work out a deal to put a RAT motor into a "Team Pirate Racing" car. Whoah. Never mind.

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 13 2007, 07:52 AM

Posted by: TeenerTim Dec 13 2007, 09:20 AM

What would be really cool is a road course version of "Pinks". Best three out of five for three lap timed runs. How about an East Coast four against a West Coast six?

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 13 2007, 11:27 AM

QUOTE(TeenerTim @ Dec 13 2007, 08:20 AM)

What would be really cool is a road course version of "Pinks". Best three out of five for three lap timed runs. How about an East Coast four against a West Coast six?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Dec 13 2007, 03:40 PM

Just as long as that last statement happens after my UPS delivery.

I guess I will have to start lying to you.

"hey it's going in a sand rail" or a beetle sumpin.

Posted by: milnersXcoupe Dec 13 2007, 04:02 PM

We are no where near finished yet.. To date we haven't had positive results with our bushing materials and have continually hit brick walls with this aspect of the development.

The New Year will bring a 5th material change that should solve the issues. If this desn't occur we'll have to rewsort to a different lifter, different insertion method requiring CNC case machining and that will add a lot of expense.

I have been on this for 20 months now and have been stuck at the same point for the past 16 of those months- thats just part of working to get it right.....

The good news is that our cams and lifters have zero wear and all the critical aspects of camshaft end play that we were worried about have not been an issue at all..


--------------------
Jake Raby




Ok - try this:

source a Harley Davidson mech. roller lifter & guide .

source from Chase Knight @ Crane Cams > lifter buttons.

Udo had the tops of the Harley Lifter EDM 'd - after removing
the adjusters - then pressed in the lifter buttons, the 'seats' that the
pushrod tip rides in.

I did this to a set of solid lifters as the BMW 'chilled cast iron' units fractured - had the bodies centerless ground as well...... not a big deal,
a machine shop locally did work for IBM - semi retired - has the EDM machine :

LT Carbide in Walden New York, owner is Lou Toth.
Great work - inexpensive - could do runs for you easily & inexpensively.

The H-D guides are a hardened material - so will end your bushing problems.

Once you set up for CNC - the cuts required to press in the H-D guides are minimal.

Give it a shot - I know it works and parts are available over the counter which could lower your costs as well.

Udo Gietl is in Calif. - formerly with HONDA ROADRACE - motorcycles - in the 1979 Freddie Spencer years - 'Oval Piston' road racer engine - etc.

Track him down & have a chat - great man & an interested party.


Brien Tourville
new york

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 13 2007, 04:17 PM

That won't solve our issue....

You'd have to see the problem and the way the failure occurs to understand.

We will get it, the idea is to keep costs down and keep install simple enough that it can be done in an hour or less with NO CASE MACHINING.

Posted by: fat73 Dec 14 2007, 01:41 AM

QUOTE(milnersXcoupe @ Dec 12 2007, 11:13 PM)

"Dang....I wish the prices of the 914s would go up like the buses...

Ed aka W9R1" -[end quote]-



The 914 are what the 356 were of their time - cheap - allowing enthusiasts to participate - whereas the 911 rules out anything but cubic money.

I am very glad the 914 prices are Not escalating - elsewise - I'd go back to working on my AMC Gremlin

Posted by: johannes Dec 14 2007, 03:08 AM

AMC Pacer is collectible car in Europe. It was imported with success in France in the seventies. It has the right size for our roads, garages and parkings. BTW I love the design of theese.
French importer used to make very smart advertising



Sorry for polluting your thread ...

Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 14 2007, 09:08 AM

a Pacer was just as hot a car as the 69 Barracuda Fastback and the 924 with the large rear glass.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Dec 15 2007, 05:21 PM

this is interesting. I just started reading. I am on page 9 but I can't read any more until I see Grant post some track times. what real racer forgets his track times? I know what I post in my 2.0 at Streets. I bet Jake knows what times his sponsored cars post at SCCA venues

PS. I'm glad the thread went back to the roller cam talk

Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 15 2007, 05:42 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Dec 13 2007, 02:17 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 15 2007, 08:01 PM

No,
we are not having any wear issues!

The issue is dislodging of the bushing in the case... Its an expansion related metallurgical issue.

There are ways to permanently solve it, but all of them are 4X as expensive as the current method, making the development too expensive to apply to all but the craziest of my engines..

That wasn't the goal.

Posted by: SGB Dec 15 2007, 08:17 PM

Just let me know when it is time for the first long term road test!

Posted by: bernbomb914 Dec 15 2007, 10:58 PM

somebody tell Grant that there was a profesional race series that used the type 4 engine for several years and featured many future indy race drivers. It was called Super Vee and it raced at every venue that there was from Mexico to watkins Glen to Ontario CA and it was sponsered by a major auto mfg.

Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 15 2007, 11:46 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Dec 15 2007, 06:01 PM)

Posted by: charliew May 9 2009, 12:11 AM

I know this is old and I guess it got solved long ago. How did the race come out. And did the new alloy bushings stay in?