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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Alex - I'll take 914 6 ring gear damage for $1000
Posted by: BKLA Aug 16 2007, 09:19 AM
Unfortunately, "BluByU" sits most of the time at the CAMP, waiting to be driven. Last month, my son and I enjoyed a drive that took us out to the Portland historic races. We enjoyed the day and the track and left around 3:00 in order to make it back to my other son's soccer tournament. The six started and ran normally both two and from the race. Parked it at home and drove with the family to the game.
After family duties, when to start the six and....zzzzzzKKKK - no engagement. put the car in gear and rocked it back and forth.
Tried again. This time engagement but loud clunk each rotation. ( the starter was relatively new so I thought maybe it was loose.) Drove up to the CAMP and parked it. Climbed under to see if the starter was "loose" - nope. Put the car cover on it and suspected a broken tooth on the ring gear.
Called my trusty local independent Porsche mechanic and asked. Tried starting again same loud clunk - figured that it must have broken a couple of teeth. Anyway, had him check it and sure enough - broke 5 teeth in a row.
Now here's the rub - He installed a new flywheel and a new starter (Bosch). THe six now starts sooo much quieter and faster than it ever did with the "high Torque" one. He told me that the high torque starters work great on high compression engines, but that he recommends the bosch starters for anything stock as they don't damage the ring gear.
Now, the flywheel looks great and I understand that it can be machined and have a new ring gear welded on. (I saved it as well as the relatively new starter.) I have seen a number of flywheels with removable or replaceable ring gears and have been considering one for the new race 2.7 I have for "other" 914.
Would it be worth it to have it machined for a replaceable ring gear as well as lightened and balanced? I would keep it as a back up for my 2.7 race motor -or- use it on the race motor. Waddya think?
Posted by: BKLA Aug 16 2007, 10:12 AM
ring gear
Posted by: BKLA Aug 16 2007, 10:13 AM
starter
Posted by: ConeDodger Aug 16 2007, 11:01 AM
McMark says that they engage too deep. He would probably say it himself but he is in the witness protection program for a few days... 
I think he says that you should space them with washers when you mount them.
Posted by: propricer Aug 16 2007, 12:34 PM
Was that the hi-torque starter that you buy on ebay for $119 ???
Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 16 2007, 12:40 PM
That looks a little bit different than the one I bought on ebay for $119.
Posted by: BKLA Aug 16 2007, 12:44 PM
the PO installed the starter, and I'm sure he didn't know about the shims. (and I have no idea if it is the same that you can buy on ebay?!?)
I have heard from other members about the shim issue. (Tilton supposedly provides instructions and shims along with it's Hi Torque starters.)
It sounds like this is a common occurrence with the hi torque starters. I don't think that shimming it with washers is the way to go. does anyone make shims for these starters? (could be laser and CAD time - Engman? Calling Dr. Engman...)
Posted by: fiid Aug 16 2007, 03:15 PM
Ooooh. Interesting. I have one of those IMI jobs. I don't remember putting a spacer on it either :|
Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 16 2007, 03:21 PM
We need to settle this once and for all but getting a stock one, and the IMI one and powering the solinoid to see how far each projects. Then we will also have a measure for he space needed to use and can inform the vendor so he can start telling people.
Posted by: 9146986 Aug 16 2007, 05:46 PM
I've seen the same thing. They don't seem to last as long as the Bosch starters either. I think those starters are more a liability than an asset.
So you get one for half the price of a 911 starter, it doesn't last as long, and it might eat your flywheel. I don't know of anyone having the same problem with a stock 911 starter.
Four cylinder flywheels aren't as expensive, but how many times do you change that part before it just isn't fun anymore?
Then lets add freight, plus freight on a flywheel.
The weight and dollar savings is not worth the gamble, to me anyway.
Posted by: BKLA Aug 16 2007, 06:36 PM
The new bosch starter sounds much quieter and cranks much quicker. I was amazed at the difference when I picked the car up.
Posted by: BKLA Aug 16 2007, 06:39 PM
We need to settle this once and for all but getting a stock one, and the IMI one and powering the solinoid to see how far each projects. Then we will also have a measure for he space needed to use and can inform the vendor so he can start telling people.
Dr. Ev -
I'll send you the hi torque starter if you really want to pursue it. F R E E
It is about two years old and has had very little use. let me know where and when.
Posted by: propricer Aug 16 2007, 06:44 PM
Dr Ev- ... if you want to start a collection of junk hi-torque starters, I'll send you mine also ... it cost me hundreds to repair the damage done by that stupid $ 119 'deal' and, despite my warnings to others who say they are considering buying it, they keep buying them !!!
Posted by: jimkelly Aug 16 2007, 08:33 PM
i have a brand new ebay hi torque starter on my shelf - i have been using a used 911 starter on my V8 that was given to me by a friend. jim
Attached image(s)
Posted by: degreeoff Aug 17 2007, 08:42 AM
Well I am going to use it. I bought the ebay deal....good thing this thread came along to remind me...I'll power up the solinoid of both and compare the depths...sounds like that is the only issue and an easy fix??
UNLESS someone beats me to it! I am about 2 weeks away from that
Posted by: bbrown Aug 17 2007, 09:18 AM
How much are new Bosch's going for?
Posted by: McMark Aug 17 2007, 11:31 AM
Yep, there seems to be two different high torque mini starters available. One needs a bit of spacing in order to work correctly. A couple of washers on the bolts between the starter and the bellhousing is enough. Cap'n Krusty has warned that spacing it out may cause the starter to flex slightly and eventually work harden the mounts, causing failure. I installed my mini starter with washer-spacers and we'll see if there is a problem. If you listen attentively, you can hear the incorrectly installed starter. When I first put mine in I didn't use the spacers and it didn't sound quite right. So I installed the spacers and it was all better.
I still highly recommend using the mini-starters, but there is a certain amount of responsibility for making sure that they are installed correctly.
Posted by: 9146986 Aug 17 2007, 11:50 AM
Mark, respect your opinion. You clearly know what's what with these cars.
My point is most guys won't know the difference until it's probably too late, and the gamble isn't worth the reward, particularly on a six or six conversion. So you save $200-250, but if things go wrong you'll have to spend $400 (or there abouts) on a new flywheel, and labor (unless you do it yourself) or a day of your time doing the repair, plus another starter which will probably not be a cheap high torque.
I say spend the extra $200-250 (over the cost of the high torque) to get a starter that you know will NOT eat your flywheel (and probably at a bad time and place) and last a very long time. From my experience the Bosch starters are very durable.
For most guys doing a six conversion, the extra money spent isn't going to break the bank on what is usually a somewhat spendy project anyway. I mean, what's another $250 bucks when you are dropping $10,000?
I replaced a flywheel on a customer's car for the same problem, with (against my recommendation) you guessed it, another high torque starter. I told the guy when we got done, that I wouldn't do the job again. If I had an open schedule and nothing better to do, maybe. I will not put one of those on a car again.
Posted by: don9146 Aug 17 2007, 01:38 PM
[attachmentid=125536]
I've seen the same thing. They don't seem to last as long as the Bosch starters either. I think those starters are more a liability than an asset.
This is what Perry is talking about. We swapped the flywheel in his shop (easier to type than to do...). It took only 3 years and about 5,000 miles for the Hi-Torque starter to eat the teeth off this flywheel.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 17 2007, 02:43 PM
what are the difs between a 4 flywheel and a 6? could that be part of the problem? the ht starters sound weird anyway. i don't think i would know what to listen for. i guess inspecting the fw thru the lower opening on the bellhousing portion will be part of regular maintenance.
k
Posted by: don9146 Aug 17 2007, 03:37 PM
I replaced a flywheel on a customer's car for the same problem, with (against my recommendation) you guessed it, another high torque starter. I told the guy when we got done, that I wouldn't do the job again. If I had an open schedule and nothing better to do, maybe. I will not put one of those on a car again.
For clarification, I did not use another on of the "Hi-torque" starters like the one sold on Pelican's site (and in BKLA's post). We used the starter that is commonly seen for sale on eBay. You will know it when you have one because the electrical leads are on the bottom of the starter when mounted, which make little to no sense to me to build a starter that way
. I already bought the starter before I knew I had an issue with the flywheel caused by the previous starter. If I had to do it over again, I would go with a Bosch starter and am keeping my eye open for a good used one (subtle hint for anyone that may have on for sale ).Later,
Don
Posted by: HIPERFORMANCEUSA Aug 17 2007, 11:30 PM
That looks a little bit different than the one I bought on ebay for $119.
Hi,
I'm the person who distributes my own version of the mini starter. Its not an IMI version that the above picture shows that chewed up the flywheel. The pitch of the gear is same as OEM. The issues that some people run into is that the transmission plate is so old that it could be thinner causing the gear to stick out further inside the bellhousing. Either way, the Powerforce version versus the IMI version is quite different and the only time you've seen mine's picture on these forums was to show others how well it fits. Buy with confidence. I only sell on EBAY.
Thanks,
Sam
Posted by: HIPERFORMANCEUSA Aug 17 2007, 11:35 PM
Dr Ev- ... if you want to start a collection of junk hi-torque starters, I'll send you mine also ... it cost me hundreds to repair the damage done by that stupid $ 119 'deal' and, despite my warnings to others who say they are considering buying it, they keep buying them !!!
Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 17 2007, 11:49 PM
We need to settle this once and for all but getting a stock one, and the IMI one and powering the solinoid to see how far each projects. Then we will also have a measure for he space needed to use and can inform the vendor so he can start telling people.
Dr. Ev -
I'll send you the hi torque starter if you really want to pursue it. F R E E
It is about two years old and has had very little use. let me know where and when.
I would take one just to test. I would even remove my starter to compare if anyone wants to foot the shipping. (kinda tight on funds, see other post
).I just think that this is awkward and want some definitive numbers to point to a reason. I would bet that I know I can get a stock bosch form my friends parts stash, I took a pic of it
One thing I am noticing on your starters is that there is no blue insulated wire guide such as is on mine.
Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 17 2007, 11:52 PM
That looks a little bit different than the one I bought on ebay for $119.
Hi,
I'm the person who distributes my own version of the mini starter. Its not an IMI version that the above picture shows that chewed up the flywheel. The pitch of the gear is same as OEM. The issues that some people run into is that the transmission plate is so old that it could be thinner causing the gear to stick out further inside the bellhousing. Either way, the Powerforce version versus the IMI version is quite different and the only time you've seen mine's picture on these forums was to show others how well it fits. Buy with confidence. I only sell on EBAY.
Thanks,
Sam
Sam, thanks for stopping buy. I hope maybe you can help us explore this further. However, the concept that the non standard starters may not be working because of of a thin plate causing it to stick out further is just kinda, well, not logical when you consider that a stock unit performs just fine.
It is weird that this is only happening to /6 conversions, though. I have such a conversion and mine kicks ass when I start it and is showing no wear on the ring gear as inspected through the bottom hole. Hopefully the future will yield more answers.
Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 18 2007, 12:10 AM
Digging further, I can tell buy the picks in Sam's add that I have one of his:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PORSCHE-911-MINI-STARTER-ALSO-912-914-930- IMI_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33576QQihZ012QQitemZ220141137226QQrdZ1QQsspagenam
eZWDVW
Notice the blue rubber wire guide and the fact that the motor is not as gigantic as the other one pictured by BKLA. It appears that we have two different aftermarket starters
Posted by: 9146986 Aug 18 2007, 12:27 PM
I forgot about you taking those pics Don, worth 1000 werds.
I couldn't remember where, who, or when you got the first starter. I also remembered after my last post, that we heard a bit of a zing the first time you started the car after replacing the starter and flywheel.
Let's hope there's more than 5k miles in the new flywheel and starter!
Posted by: McMark Aug 18 2007, 12:40 PM
Perry,
I agree with your logic. My concern is the quality of a rebuilt versus brand new (in terms of longevity). I definitely don't disagree with you. 
Sam, I'm happy to see you pop in. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately, I have to completely disagree with your assessment, at least on four cylinder cars. The ring gear does not change position over the life of the flywheel. A flywheel that has been cut to the minimum allowable thickness will have exactly the same ring gear dimensions as a brand new flywheel.
[EDIT] What do you mean by 'transmission plate'?
What would really help us, Sam, is if you have specific manufacturing dimensions that you could post. Specifically, drive gear extension/throw and the distance between the mounting surface and the end of the gear. That would help a lot. Also, some detailed pictures of your product to help those of us who have mini-starters identify which model we have. There is no sense in us sharing our experience if we can't compare apples to apples.
Thanks Sam.
Posted by: HIPERFORMANCEUSA Aug 18 2007, 02:50 PM
Perry,
I agree with your logic. My concern is the quality of a rebuilt versus brand new (in terms of longevity). I definitely don't disagree with you.
Sam, I'm happy to see you pop in. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately, I have to completely disagree with your assessment, at least on four cylinder cars. The ring gear does not change position over the life of the flywheel. A flywheel that has been cut to the minimum allowable thickness will have exactly the same ring gear dimensions as a brand new flywheel.
[EDIT] What do you mean by 'transmission plate'?
What would really help us, Sam, is if you have specific manufacturing dimensions that you could post. Specifically, drive gear extension/throw and the distance between the mounting surface and the end of the gear. That would help a lot. Also, some detailed pictures of your product to help those of us who have mini-starters identify which model we have. There is no sense in us sharing our experience if we can't compare apples to apples.
Thanks Sam.Heres the motor style I sell which is somewhat similar to the IMI style. IMI Rotates its DE housing where as mine is Static to the original equipment position. I'll get some dimensions for you next week on static pinion position, pitch throwout and mounting. I'm more than happy to help on this issue.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 18 2007, 04:28 PM
i got mine years ago, from performance products, i believe. i remember the box said "hi-torque" all over it.
fits perfectly, no spacers needed. on the /4 and now on the /6.
cranks like crazy every time. even on the higher compression /4 i had.
i wouldn't go back to a bosch starter even if you paid me to do so ...
Andy
Posted by: BKLA Aug 20 2007, 08:30 AM
We need to settle this once and for all but getting a stock one, and the IMI one and powering the solinoid to see how far each projects. Then we will also have a measure for he space needed to use and can inform the vendor so he can start telling people.
Dr. Ev -
I'll send you the hi torque starter if you really want to pursue it. F R E E
It is about two years old and has had very little use. let me know where and when.
I would take one just to test. I would even remove my starter to compare if anyone wants to foot the shipping. (kinda tight on funds, see other post
).I just think that this is awkward and want some definitive numbers to point to a reason. I would bet that I know I can get a stock bosch form my friends parts stash, I took a pic of it
One thing I am noticing on your starters is that there is no blue insulated wire guide such as is on mine.
Dr. Ev -
I'll send it to you as I have no use for it. It'll go out later this week.
I would be interested in understanding the spacing issue on the starters. I read tilton's installation instructions on the web. THey reference a very clear min. distance from the end of the starter gear to the ring gear as well as a way to measure it. I thought about McMarks spacing idea with washers, but it seems that the starter would work its way loose as it would want to pivot around the small surface area of the washers, over a period of time. Maybe not for those who tinker every weekend and would check it!
Seems like a simple laser cut spacer would do the trick.
I am really happy with the new flywheel and bosch starter. It is quieter and starts much quicker than before. Took off the GT/rally muffler and reinstalled the 911 sport muffler - drove it around a lot this weekend - quieter and can hear that wonderful weber music clearer- LOVE this car!
Posted by: type47fan Sep 19 2007, 08:10 PM
It's been thirty days and I'd hate to see this topic die before it's resolved, so, is there anything new that hasn't been posted? Have the starters been evaluated and measurements taken? 
Thanks,
Posted by: Dr. Roger Sep 19 2007, 10:37 PM
i kinda' skimmed through this thread but didn't see this question asked:
have you checked the wear pattern on your flywheel and starter gears?
there, you will find your answer to the question, "how far in is the starter engaging"?
i can help if you can supply a close-up pic of the ring gear showing the contact surfaces.
best of luck.
roger
Posted by: larryM Nov 2 2012, 12:15 AM
Has this IMI problem ever been solved?
I recently bought one of the IMI units from Pelican to use on a 3.2 with 901 & KEP ring conversion parts -
it did not come with any spacer
still new in box - should i return it ??????????????
KEP said yesterday on phone they recommend the IMI
. ????????????????
I CAN tell y'all that the Bosch hi-torque 911 unit (1.5 hp) (looks identical to my oem '89 3.2 starter) as sold by Stoddard and many others as a "solution" turns out to be a big eater of ring gears & thusly $450 flywheels (twice in 5000 miles on my 2.7)
- KEP says that the Bosch has a thin nose bushing and that it cracks on kickbacks - then the pnion gets out of tolerance and chews
.
Posted by: bcheney Nov 2 2012, 05:05 AM
I just had a hi torque starter purchased from Automotion out of Titusville FL. It was about $300. Is this one good to go without any concern for ring gear damage? My car is a 6 conversion with a OEM 914/6 flywheel and a 2.2 Engine.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Eric_Shea Nov 2 2012, 08:53 AM
They resolved this years ago and send a spacer for the 901 application.
Posted by: jsayre914 Nov 2 2012, 09:39 AM
i got mine years ago, from performance products, i believe. i remember the box said "hi-torque" all over it.
fits perfectly, no spacers needed. on the /4 and now on the /6.
cranks like crazy every time. even on the higher compression /4 i had.
i wouldn't go back to a bosch starter even if you paid me to do so ...
AndyI agree, swapped in a High Torque, no spacers, and it starts way quicker and smoother. Every time. All wires reached and the install was 30 min.
I would never go back to a Bosch. Too many times it would crank too slow to start the car. My engine is also 2056 with higher compression
Posted by: SLITS Nov 2 2012, 11:11 AM
Sam uses the Hitachi starter it appears.
The IMI is also the Hitachi.
BCheney's stater is the Nippondenso.
I've run them both. I also had a stock Bosch 911 (SR68?) starter that chewed up my flywheel.
Go figure!
If I were to purchase another, I would purchase from ProLine, Parker, AZ ( I know the guy. He purchases cores from us and I know the quality of his work).
Posted by: HIPERFORMANCEUSA Nov 2 2012, 03:59 PM
Sam uses the Hitachi starter it appears.
The IMI is also the Hitachi.
BCheney's stater is the Nippondenso.
I've run them both. I also had a stock Bosch 911 (SR68?) starter that chewed up my flywheel.
Go figure!
If I were to purchase another, I would purchase from ProLine, Parker, AZ ( I know the guy. He purchases cores from us and I know the quality of his work).
Hi,
We actually use the OEM nippondenso cores for our units. The other photo listed is a hitachi version.
Sam
Posted by: HIPERFORMANCEUSA Nov 2 2012, 04:01 PM
I just had a hi torque starter purchased from Automotion out of Titusville FL. It was about $300. Is this one good to go without any concern for ring gear damage? My car is a 6 conversion with a OEM 914/6 flywheel and a 2.2 Engine.
This starter is a Hitachi motor, not a Nippondenso motor. These have no history in the markety place like the IMI's and Hi Performance units.
Sam
Posted by: SLITS Nov 2 2012, 05:07 PM
I get them crossed up as I really don't deal with the electrical ... sorry.
Posted by: rfuerst911sc Nov 3 2012, 03:52 AM
My 1983 911SC has a hi-torque starter that I purchased from Pelican Parts over 5 years ago. Don't remember the brand but it has performed perfectly for all these years with no indication of pending doom . This is a 915 transmission with everything being stock other than the starter. On my 914 I have a 1978 3.0 with a KEP ring gear, 901 transmission and a 911 turbo Bosch starter. I bought this starter as a rebuild from a someone that used it in a photo shoot of some kind . Been using it for 2 + years now and knock on wood no problems to date. So it would appear your luck with either for a while was hit or miss, hopefully this is no longer a problem.
Posted by: larryM Nov 5 2012, 11:06 PM
Now, the flywheel looks great and I understand that it can be machined and have a new ring gear welded on. (I saved it as well as the relatively new starter.) I have seen a number of flywheels with removable or replaceable ring gears and have been considering one for the new race 2.7 I have for "other" 914.
Would it be worth it to have it machined for a replaceable ring gear as well as lightened and balanced?
so - where can I have said ring gear replacement solution done on a 911-914/6 215mm FW ??
I like the "spare" idea & hate to throw away an otherwise usable FW if the thing can be reclaimed
(infamous M-Meister claims they do it - but i tried that once & they screwed up the whole works by incorrectly surfacing the surface (which i had told them NOT to do - I even taped it over with big bold labeling saying DO NOT SURFACE)
.
Posted by: sixnotfour Nov 6 2012, 02:35 AM
Kennedy sells the ring gears and probably will do it , I never asked just bought the ring gears.
Posted by: Joe Sharp Nov 6 2012, 08:55 AM
I bought mine at Pelican and am a happy camper, wish I could say the same thing about the throtle cable they sell us for the -6's.
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Nov 6 2012, 10:00 AM
terry cable had the wrong example for teh 914 six throttle cable. tool guy let me borrow a real SIX cable. ask them for teh same one they made for S & S FAbrication in san diego. it is exact length for a stock six...or Ill send you one if you need it
Posted by: larryM Nov 7 2012, 07:21 PM
NADA - (not NAPA) -
KEP says today they do not sell or do a fix for damaged ring gears on 2.0-2.7 flywheeels
Now, the flywheel looks great and I understand that it can be machined and have a new ring gear welded on. (I saved it as well as the relatively new starter.) I have seen a number of flywheels with removable or replaceable ring gears and have been considering one for the new race 2.7 I have for "other" 914.
Would it be worth it to have it machined for a replaceable ring gear as well as lightened and balanced?
so - where can I have said ring gear replacement solution done on a 911-914/6 215mm FW ??
I like the "spare" idea & hate to throw away an otherwise usable FW if the thing can be reclaimed
(infamous M-Meister claims they do it - but i tried that once & they screwed up the whole works by incorrectly surfacing the surface (which i had told them NOT to do - I even taped it over with big bold labeling saying DO NOT SURFACE)
.
Posted by: sixnotfour Nov 8 2012, 11:13 AM
tell em you need a 12 volt bug ring gear, I got 4 from them last year no problem.
Posted by: larryM Nov 8 2012, 05:50 PM
RIMCO VW does it all - $130 includes the new ring, plus ship
http://www.rimcovw.com/shipping-procedures/
just put in a box & follow the instructions on their site
tell em you need a 12 volt bug ring gear, I got 4 from them last year no problem.
aha! - love this site - somebody always has the answer
for future reference see this
"You can have the flywheel ring gear replaced by experienced machine shops such as Rimco or Competition Engineering or others, and then have them re-balance it and the clutch. .... They will maching off the old gear, and heat the new ring gear and press it on the flywheel, and spot weld it into place, locking it down. "
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=518182
and on eBay - search for ATP ZA-550 Flywheel Ring Gear
also see http://www.zalexindustries.com/cross_comp.html
"912 and post-'67 VW utilize a 130 tooth ring gear resulting in a larger ring diameter. The dimension between the starter axis and flywheel axis is identical for all VW and pre-'89 Porsche. This means that the starter gear diameter must be different for 911"
.
Posted by: larryM Nov 13 2012, 09:03 PM
fwiw - I talked to Matt at IMI - (HI-Torque) today 11-13-2012
- He says ALL the Porsche starters they make DO NOT REQUIRE SHIMS
- says that ALL Porsche are 1.3 inches from mounting flange to contact-point of ring gear teeth
(my IMI from Pelican is part number 101N - (I see others on web, eBay, etc that do not carry the N suffix) -
also says there is a "clone" being sold on eBay that is giving them fits - it is sold as a "hybrid"
,
Posted by: larryM Nov 16 2012, 05:35 PM
here is a picture of the RIMCO repaired ring gear
one-day turn-around
. 
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