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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:04 PM

This is not a project for any sort of beginer or not anything I would recomend for anyone who cannot do it all themselves. I spent waaaaay too many hours to justify having an actual shop try it. I also probably wouldn't ever do this again for fear that I wouldn't be able to reproduce the same results. Yeah, it turned out that good. That said, as I post pictures, understand this project is already DONE. So it WORKS and looks as though the factory installed every piece. So sit back, enjoy and maybe dream that you might one day yourself embark on such a task. Hopefully this will help those few people who dare to be as stupid as I.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:13 PM

The first thing I started with was a handful of measurements and compound curve demensions. Then my son and I zipped on down to a local bone yard and started checking out roofs on various cars. I wanted to keep it in the "Porsche family" or at least in the P-VW-Audi family, so we started there. Turns out, the 944 has an almost spot on match to the first main raidus required for the job. Hmm, $100 and a sawzall later and we had the top of a 944 sitting back at the house. Here is the basic starting piece I had. This is where the fun and frustrations began.

My first cut was for the front, measured from the windshield frame back to where I figured the back should end correctly. I studied 100 916 photos and had them plastered everywhere during this whole process.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:18 PM

Here is a little more cut off, there is A LOT that was removed and yes, I wanted a sunroof and yes, the drain tubes are hooked up and yes, it all works and is completely unseen as if done by the factory. So yes, you can have your cake and eat it too on this one. This conversion completely changes the car. I also have the Engman inner long kit installed and holy crap, it's a stiff one!


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:23 PM

This is one crappy photo, sorry about that. But after cutting off much of the sides that would meet up with the doors and rear quarter windows, I was able to start laying the steel section on top of a 914 top to start getting ideas of where to go from here. One thing I noticed right away was I was going to have to create something to add about 1 inch to each side and make it have a compound raidus. Nothing like keeping it simple huh?


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Posted by: effutuo101 Sep 16 2007, 09:24 PM

Keep the pic's coming Dan! It looks like you have done a wonderful job.
Now you go drive?

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:26 PM

Drive it daily to Seattle, rain or shine. The only car I have.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:31 PM

Here is a better shot showing more of the material removed. I must of drilled out 1000 spot welds, ground down and cut off gobs of metal trying to leave as much alone as possible to retain strength. You can also see some 944 interior parts laying around. I went through I think about 5 versions before finally settling on the final one. Oh yeah, the finished top with sunroof in and all interior parts wieghs 6lbs more than the glass top, I figure with welding and skim coating(body work) max of 10lbs added to the car.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 16 2007, 09:37 PM

Here are the final first version removed pieces from the 944 roof section. I wound up having to build and box in top out longitudes for both sides to acomplish my goal, stiff as a 916, but still with an open roof. It was too cool watching the Yard Dude cut the roof off the 944, he pretty much sawzall'd right through everything, glass, sunroof cables etc. 944's are plentiful at bone yards right now. Last post for the night, more to come later this week.


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Posted by: KaptKaos Sep 16 2007, 10:04 PM

More! More!

Posted by: markb Sep 16 2007, 10:10 PM

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 16 2007, 10:12 PM

You have WAY too much time on your hands...


And why a sunroof???

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 16 2007, 10:20 PM

yes


and


yes!

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 16 2007, 10:28 PM

He said he was going for an open feeling while making it stiff as a 916.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 16 2007, 10:30 PM

That is just me... I don't like sunroofs in any form. I would probably have gone for a non sunroof top if I were doing this.


To each his own.....

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 16 2007, 10:38 PM

because that's how the factory did it in '68/'69 ...
Andy



914.006:

Posted by: Rand Sep 16 2007, 10:42 PM

I love it! I've thought about running bars just under the edges of the top. But yours accomplishes the same thing, even stronger, and is a much cleaner finished product.

I would make the sunroof piece completely removable, so it's still *almost* a targa with just a smaller top. And make a new holder/clips to still stow it in the trunk. (Is this one removable or tip up?)

Now all you need to do is make a door frame around the top and put a modern one-piece window in that can roll up and seal in the frame. It would make a perfectly water/air tight seal like a new car.


Nice work Dan! I love seeing unique projects!

Posted by: sww914 Sep 16 2007, 11:20 PM

Nice work, I can't wait to see the rest.
If you weren't 1,000 miles away, I'd bring you some sawhorses so you wouldn't have to work all bent over on those rubbermaid containers anymore. It makes my back hurt just looking at it.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 17 2007, 12:10 AM

more pics!

Posted by: effutuo101 Sep 17 2007, 01:15 AM

I think that was just for pictures.
I down loaded the picture. the detail on the welding is right on...

Posted by: drive-ability Sep 17 2007, 06:46 PM

I think that's a nice addition, sunroof or not. My question about the addition of the roof is would it put added pressure on the windshield frame? I wouldn't mind doing the job on my car. Has anyone had any experience with the long term effects. It would be a shame if the windshield or windshield frame became damaged due to flex.. Just wondering If you have to do any structural work in that area first ????


I hated driving with my top on, but once I got a good rear targa seal and set up my rear glass using "two" panes its rather nice in the cab.

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 17 2007, 07:09 PM

Thats a very good question. Base on my inspection of windshield hoop it certainly doesnt have much structural integrity. At least with targa there is some wiggle room.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 17 2007, 08:43 PM

Is the 914 windshield hoop any weaker or stronger than other cars? It seems that most cars have minimal structure on the sides of the windshield.

Nice work.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 10:36 PM

I have cut into the windshield frame on a 914 to do this job. I personally think like most open top cars, they have much more support than coupes from the factory. I can't say if my 914 will have ill effects until I log more time behind the wheel, but rest assured, I am beating the crap out of the car daily driving it to and from Seattle. The freeway is all torn up right now (ground up black top). So far, the car has been taking it better than I could ever have thought. Now back to some more pictures....

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 10:39 PM

Same as the last shot I posted, just from the other side. Yes, I have 4 saw horses and 8 pairs of jackstands. You can see on the bottom one of my first versions was leaving that nice finished edge on from the 944. It seemed perfect, the way it sloped back in just like the 916, smooth factory finished edge even. Eventually, I found it just too much for me to make look "perfect". So it got cut off down the road. I'll show you what I did in its place.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 10:44 PM

One of the local guys (Jeff H.) let me cut the rear targa roll bar and front winshield frame sections off of a soon to be scrapped 914. I learned very quickly I wouldn't have been able to do this without those pieces. You simply have to have them to help design and build the needed compound curves for the roof section. Here is another tossed out idea I had of cutting part of the windshield frame up to use and weld to the top to creat an exact 914 "curve". I never got to welding it on, I wound up building this part from scratch. Yuck.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 10:48 PM

Here is another good shot of the two tops sitting close together. You can see how the main roof arc is almost a spot on match but still not quite wide enough.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 10:51 PM

Here are those saw horses with the donor 914 top parts ready to be used as jigs and even welded onto the 944 roof section, well, parts of the donor parts anyway.


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Posted by: Mr.C Sep 17 2007, 10:53 PM

Why the suspense with the pictures? I'm American, I need it now!
OOPS! Your still adding.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 10:56 PM

First trial of my side extensions. I didn't get any shots of the actual making or tooling of them, here they are lightly tac'd into place and set on the rear targa bar to check the fit and curve. These were the hardest parts because they have a radious that has to follow the top of the door window along with the curve that has to follow the top down to the sides AND still have a finished edge with NO body filler. Like I said before, yuck.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 11:00 PM

More welding, more checking, pretty rough, but starting to come together, sort of. At this point, I was still thinking I was going to just toss the whole thing in the trash. Figured it was fun trying, but the back section just wasn't turning out like I hoped. This photo is still a LOOOOOOOONG way from fitting to any car.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 11:05 PM

Bottom view, note the two flat surfaces. This is what I would mounting the window seal chanels to. They also get formed into a "box" that gets welded to the targa bar and windshield frame. Mucho strenth added because of that for sure.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 17 2007, 11:12 PM

Last picture for tonight, getting tired. I wish I would have taken better pictures of this one. I wound up cutting the very top front of the donor windshield and grafting it onto the 944 roof section to get an exact curve match to my 914 frame. After carefully cutting and cutting I wound up leaving a 2 layer piece together which had a lot of strength to it. This ensured my welding the arc to the front of the 944 roof section would match spot on to my 914 winshield frame. Lots and lots of welding after this, folding down the "boxes" and welding them to the 944 roof section. At this point, I could set the top on my 914 and it looked just like the fiberglass top. Sat on there exactly the same. Next photos I start welding on my car! Doh!


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:17 PM

Still thinking to myself; "I can still turn back, just put it all back together" My ultra exact red lines indicate what I had to remove from the rear targa bar to have the sunroof fit correctly.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:22 PM

I can still just put everything back.....

Notice I cut off the back because I just wasn't happy with the ends or corners. I welded up metal, ground, welded, cut off, re welded, new metal, ugh, finally cut it all off and decided I just couldn't manufature that back finished piece. Having the back open for the attatchment made it perfect for welding the top to what was left of the roll bar and my added support bar.

I can still put everything back and just walk away.....


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Posted by: sww914 Sep 18 2007, 08:27 PM

Nice sawhorses! I think you ran out and bought them so as to avoid any more embarrassment.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:28 PM

No turning back now, rear targa bar cut, first welds done to secure the top to the car. Holy crap, what have I done?


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Posted by: scotty b Sep 18 2007, 08:29 PM

FYI for anyone contemplating this. Make certain the car you get the top from is an EARLY 944 or any 924 (pre 83) Later 944's and the 924S have a MOTORIZED sunroof that is operated by a motor in the rear of the car with cables running up to the roof. This would be EXTREMELY hard if not impossible to utilize the late style roof. Early roofs are a simple and manual 2 latch twist and lift setup. Carry on

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:31 PM

My special bar to reinforce what I cut off of the targa bar.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:34 PM

Actually, very true here. My roof section is from an 86' and the sunroof slug is from the same 86' with all 83' guts and parts for the manual latches. I chose the late stuff partly becuase it was avialable and part becuase the later sunroof sections have front and rear "bow" adjusments. But yeah, early 944 roof section would have been a little better for me. Either way, it will work, just have to source the manual latches.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:41 PM

Fast forwarding since this is not a "how to" thread, just an "I did it so maybe you can to". Almost ready for paint in this photo, just a little more flat boarding and touch up.

Also, if you heli-arc the factory chanels together, you can buy the nice new universal style window seals so they will be all one piece for around $2 a foot. Pretty cheap, seal up perfect, look totaly stock blah, blah. There you go folks. I'll post some more painted pictures later on maybe. It can be done. Completely changes the car, tight and quiet now. I dare say almost like a normal car?


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 18 2007, 08:49 PM

Actually one more for tonight. I wound up cutting off the last inch or so of the fiberglass top and using it as a "cap" grafting it on to the steel top section after all the welding was done. This was the only way I could see to get really good welds under that back top section as well as keep the back looking totally stock. Not exactly like the 916(no drop down supports on them), but still has the perfect factory edge and overbite like it should. With the car top primered, you couldn't even tell the top wasn't anything but stock. Maybe someone will take this to the next level and do a better job? Maybe just keep adding to this thread? That'd be cool.


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Posted by: markb Sep 18 2007, 10:03 PM

Some people have entirely too much time on their hands......




VERY nice job!

Posted by: drive-ability Sep 18 2007, 10:07 PM

That looks great! Give yourself a big pat on the back. Using the targa as a cap was something, looks nice.. Well done, I'm sure you have some more tweaking but I'm glad to see someone jump in and just go for it..... Keep us posted

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 18 2007, 10:14 PM

very nice!

Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 18 2007, 10:17 PM

Dan looks good, I would want a little rain gutter above window (hate the rain running in with window down a bit.)

If you notice it is in two different garages , He also had time to move.

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 18 2007, 10:27 PM

Nice.

Are you going to paint it body color or leave it looking semi-like a stock top?

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 19 2007, 12:28 AM

Nice work Dan. I wish I could fabricate stuff like that. I need to learn to weld first I guess. I can't wait to see your car in person.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Sep 19 2007, 12:43 PM

WOW. That looks awesome. I bet 911 window metal might work at the top too, but I can tell you were using what was available. Great job using the scrap pieces to mock fitment. Keep up the good work!

Posted by: scotty b Sep 19 2007, 07:23 PM

Wouldn't be to hard to graft in agutter by splitting a piece of conduit in half and reshaping it a bit. Viola......you're right as rain

Posted by: Travis Neff Sep 19 2007, 09:54 PM

That is awesome.

How did you finish the inside of the roof (headliner)?

Nice work Dan.

Posted by: Nick Sep 20 2007, 07:15 AM

Love it, I pulled up some 944 pics and began to wonder if you could keep the 914 rear window and reshape the sail panels to fit the 944 tail gate glass. Then you could do an engine under glass look like Ferrari.

Nick

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 20 2007, 07:33 AM

Great Idea.... until the engine overheats from the lack of an air intake for an air cooled engine......

Posted by: ThinAir Sep 20 2007, 09:30 AM

WOW! This is simply amazing! Well done!

One of these days when I get back to the restoration on my 72 I'm gonna have to find a way to include this. I gotta learn to weld!

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 20 2007, 08:36 PM

Body color, just picked up the paint the other day. I am going to try to shoot it this weekend. Just the roof and sails mind you. The whole car needs a re-shoot, but that won't be for another couple of years. I'll post more pics later after the painting is done.

The headliner isn't quite done yet. Close, I am trimming up the factory 944 insulation pieces and re-glueing (spelling?) then in place to reduce wind noise further. Then it'll be just like a 944 with just a few strips of vinyl to cover things up. It'll look like the factory installed it. I'll take pics of that as well.

Thanks for the compliments guys. I appreciate it!

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 20 2007, 08:39 PM

Thanks for showing us your work. It is a very well done piece.

Posted by: angerosa Sep 20 2007, 10:13 PM

Posted by: pete-stevers Sep 20 2007, 11:01 PM

Wow dan!!!!
that is a great job....
congrats on the move!!

Posted by: thesey914 Sep 21 2007, 12:51 PM

I thought Root had been quiet for ages...now we know why!
Great read just like your classic six coversion thread!! Must be nice to post some pioneering 914 body work

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 23 2007, 08:14 PM

Like I mentioned before, the whole car needs to be painted as a whole, but here is more of the "finished" product.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 23 2007, 08:17 PM

The setting sun was messing with my picture taking and I still have to put the window seals back on.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 23 2007, 08:54 PM

Sunroof open.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 23 2007, 08:58 PM

Too much sunshine! Last one.


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Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 23 2007, 09:39 PM

Looks great (I Dont Need No Stinking Targa Seal) Dan !!

Posted by: 914MF Sep 23 2007, 09:59 PM

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Sep 23 2007, 10:14 PM

nice job Dan....looks totally factory original...I like the all steel sunroof approach

Posted by: effutuo101 Sep 23 2007, 10:46 PM

and you worked in a picture of the new crib! Nice job Dan!

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 24 2007, 01:07 AM

Wow Dan

That looks really amazing. The next time I see you drive by and you see a crazy guy driving a '98 BMW 528 and honking it is just me

Posted by: BahnBrenner914 Sep 24 2007, 12:45 PM

That's definately going on my all-out-crazy-I-have-money-now 914 I'm going to build one day.

Posted by: effutuo101 Sep 24 2007, 08:00 PM

Ok, so there i am on the freeway when I see Dan Root headed home. I get an up close and personal look at his work on this top. The photo's don't do it justice. Great work Dan! very sweet!

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 24 2007, 08:18 PM

Ha! That was you! I almost thought Rich, but I remembered his bike being red and not a BMW. Thanks for the compliments. Looks like I gotta run a little black over that front spoiler.

Posted by: effutuo101 Sep 24 2007, 11:30 PM

Yep, nice day for a ride. I didn't see the front, just the back, sides and top. I think we wer going to have to raid your casa for a picnic and check out Dan's car BBQ.

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 25 2007, 12:47 AM

Nice work Dan.

Posted by: boxstr Sep 25 2007, 11:20 PM

Dan that looks really great. Job well done. I see a new Rootworks future feature.
CLINTOPON

Posted by: KaptKaos Sep 26 2007, 02:20 AM

Awesome stuff.

How did you finish it on the inside?

Posted by: iamchappy Sep 26 2007, 08:07 AM

Wow, it came out real nice.

Posted by: GWN7 Sep 28 2007, 08:58 PM

Very nice Dan...........let me know if I can help with the seal for the top of the window to the roof.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 28 2007, 10:17 PM

Already done, lots of companies carry an almost exact match to the factory seal, but even better, it's made from soft foam material. Not that hard rubber crap that doesn't seal. The window squishes into the seal just a tiny bit creating a nice water tight fit. I think it was around $2 a foot? Cheap.

The headliner is almost done, I have one side all together. Turned out really nice. I'll try to post some pics of that this weekend. After that, it's a done project.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 28 2007, 10:25 PM

I found one more picture from last weekend. Decent shot of the windshield to roof transition.


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Posted by: bigkensteele Sep 28 2007, 10:54 PM

Dan,
Fantastic! You did a beautiful job. Anything less would have been a major disappointment given the car you did the surgery on. That is one great looking teener, and you have done it justice.

I wish that I had the cajones to try it on mine. I am tired of hearing the top squeak, and I think that I could live with a really large sunroof instead, especially given the structural stiffness added.

Hats off to great work,
Ken

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 29 2007, 12:30 PM

Posted by: burton73 Sep 29 2007, 12:50 PM

Dan,

A great job I must say. Thanks for sharing.

Bob

Al,

You going for the solid roof on your 916 now? Looks somewhat more doable.

Bob

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 29 2007, 01:17 PM

Bob-
I want to, but I'm afraid to do it to a six. I'd prefer converting a four. I'm worried about devaluing the car. I don't have the original engine, been repainted, different interior & I'm worried. Silly, but if I ever found the original engine I'd be fuched.

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 29 2007, 04:30 PM

You know the funny part, couple of buddies of mine and I agree that the 944 "hole" doesn't take away anything from the original targa. The front still doesn't come back farther than the sunvisors and the back is actually farther back than the original targa. About the only thing is the sides come up off the frame a couple of inches, but you don't really notice when driving. All in all, not much difference in feeling. 100mph still feels quiet even without the 944 wind deflector in. I haven't bothered re-installing that yet.

Posted by: Lou W Sep 29 2007, 08:15 PM

Very nice job.

Posted by: partwerks Jun 1 2014, 08:50 PM

Do you have any more pics on the area that you had to trim on the roll bar, I thought you said?

Also, any pics on the inside of the roof in how it was finished out?

Would you consider making any tops for anyone else who may be interested in a hard top since you did a good job of it?

Posted by: carr914 Jun 1 2014, 08:56 PM

Do you realize that the last post before yours was 2007!

I've owned the car Twice since then & it is now in the NE

Posted by: Vysoc Apr 5 2015, 07:32 AM

Hey TC,

Is this the source for my 2.5 engine?

Vysoc