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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Heat for Heat Exchangerless Cars?
Posted by: Chuck Sep 18 2007, 07:22 PM
I'm curious if anyone here has ever put some sort of electric heater into their 914. 914-6 heat exchangers, or equivalent, are $1500+. A header can be had for $400 and increases performance. 
I can live without heat per se, but I will really need a defog option in my car for rainy days. Anyone rigged something up? Care to share?
Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 18 2007, 07:27 PM
I'm curious if anyone here has ever put some sort of electric heater into their 914. 914-6 heat exchangers, or equivalent, are $1500+. A header can be had for $400 and increases performance.
I can live without heat per se, but I will really need a defrost option in my car. Anyone rigged something up? Care to share?Chuck,
I have heard of but never seen anyone do the VW gas heater thing... Some headers do come with heat exchanger for 4 cylinders. Not sure about sixes. If you really are just looking for a good functional street car, you can go with SSI heat exchangers instead of headers. Great performance and great heat. In Minnesota you would need at the least a defroster as the windows go fog city with the slightest touch of rain combined with closed windows and breathing occupants.
Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 18 2007, 07:29 PM
A really big Jacket I just use the rain-x no fog on the inside and rain-x on the outside. I have yet had a problem with it fogging up on me. I have no heat or blower motor anymore. It doesnt get as cold here as it does there though. I don't really drive it in the pouring rain either.
Posted by: swl Sep 18 2007, 07:35 PM
Chuck. My daily driver is a smart car - super efficient little diesel but so little waste heat that it is pretty cold in the winter. They have a little electric heater that cuts in as a booster but it really doesn't do a lot. Might take the mist off the windscreen on a cool day but I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for it.
There was a gas heater available on the original bugs that would probably be a better answer. Mind you they had a bad rep for fires.
I seem to remember the guys on the smart forum talking about an auxilary heater from across the pond. I'll do a search and see what I can find.
Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 18 2007, 08:05 PM
There was a gas heater available on the original bugs that would probably be a better answer. Mind you they had a bad rep for fires.
Why would that be bad
It could be interesting to hear about the other heaters though.
Posted by: jd74914 Sep 18 2007, 08:08 PM
I thought they were actually pretty safe? Anyways, I think the big company was Wabaso? or something like that 
Posted by: swl Sep 18 2007, 08:13 PM
lol - searching for heater on the smart board brings back about 900 hits. Sort of searching for 'rust' here. I've posted a request - see if anyones memory is better than mine
Posted by: Grelber Sep 18 2007, 08:42 PM
Put two 12 volt hair blow dryers in the front trunk, duct taped to your defroster vents.
Posted by: alpha434 Sep 18 2007, 08:48 PM
Eberspacher.
Check both the Samba and your FLVWPs (That's friendly local VW Parts)
A rebuilt unit can be had for 450 here in Colorado in the summer. I assume demand goes up in the winter-> prices up.
Posted by: Wannabe 914-6 owner Sep 18 2007, 09:03 PM
Seems like JC Whitney used to offer a gas heater sytem for bugs. Don't know if they are still in business?
Posted by: Dr Evil Sep 18 2007, 09:03 PM
The Corvair also had a reliable gas heater that may be available for less.
Posted by: sww914 Sep 18 2007, 09:06 PM
Gas heaters are all over thesamba for $100.00-$200.00.
Posted by: Chuck Sep 18 2007, 09:15 PM
[/quote]
In Minnesota you would need at the least a defroster as the windows go fog city with the slightest touch of rain combined with closed windows and breathing occupants.
[/quote]
That is EXACTLY what I am trying to avoid. I may just need to bite the bullet and spend the $$ on the SSIs.
Posted by: swl Sep 18 2007, 09:24 PM
forget the smart heater. Diesel fuel (duh!), heats the coolant and costs $2400!!!!
Posted by: Chuck Sep 18 2007, 09:55 PM
Put two 12 volt hair blow dryers in the front trunk, duct taped to your defroster vents.
After the day I've had, that sounds like a helluva good idea. Simple, effective, inexpensive.
Posted by: rktmn247 Sep 18 2007, 11:24 PM
I am from MN. and when visiting my family one winter, had the heater core in my camaro fail. 55 mph in 20 below weather. Imho there is no way a couple of hair dryers would get the job done. Although, with this global warming I could be wrong. 
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Sep 19 2007, 07:35 AM
I am from MN. and when visiting my family one winter, had the heater core in my camaro fail. 55 mph in 20 below weather. Imho there is no way a couple of hair dryers would get the job done. Although, with this global warming I could be wrong.
When it gets that cold,your 914 should be parked - heat or no heat! Use your beater, and save the 914 for nicer days.
Zach
Posted by: Chuck Sep 19 2007, 12:27 PM
I am from MN. and when visiting my family one winter, had the heater core in my camaro fail. 55 mph in 20 below weather. Imho there is no way a couple of hair dryers would get the job done. Although, with this global warming I could be wrong.
You misunderstand. My car will only be taken out once the salt is off the roads in the spring and will be put away by November. But, I would still like to be able to drive it on rainy days and around here, that means defrost.
Posted by: John Sep 19 2007, 12:42 PM
I know that they make small square space heaters that sit under a desk and plug into the wall. I have seen many in offices where the desk jockey gets cold.
You may be able to power one of those with an inverter to warm up the cabin.
Where does the defroster air get returned to the blower? Duct the heater there and you would get heat out of the defrost vents.
JC Whitney (yes they are still in business) used to sell a 12v heater that was essentially a hair drier mounted in a different plastic case and could be used as a defroster. They were ugly and bulky, but with a creative mind and some work, I'm sure it could be modified to provide heat to the blower plenum.
I think in the end, it may be easier to simply put a box around a set of headers and blow air through the box. That is the basic concept of the stock heat exchangers.
Good luck with your project.
Posted by: davep Sep 19 2007, 01:09 PM
No electric heater will work effectively, the alternator cannot supply enough power!
SSI heater boxes along with a functional stock heating system both works effectively and is cost effective with all alternatives I know about.
Posted by: rktmn247 Sep 19 2007, 01:43 PM
I am from MN. and when visiting my family one winter, had the heater core in my camaro fail. 55 mph in 20 below weather. Imho there is no way a couple of hair dryers would get the job done. Although, with this global warming I could be wrong.
You misunderstand. My car will only be taken out once the salt is off the roads in the spring and will be put away by November. But, I would still like to be able to drive it on rainy days and around here, that means defrost.
Roger that. I also do not have heat and think, even here, I might need defog if I were to get caught in the rain; but then I would have to drive the car for that to happen.
Posted by: Rand Sep 19 2007, 03:11 PM
Forget electric. One that would actually work takes more power than you can supply in a car.
They make little units you can throw on your dash that almost work for a defroster (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36711) but they will make your stock wiring dangerously hot in 15 minutes and don't do much. Making real heat from car electricity is out of the question.
The gas heaters work (Eberspacher, Webasto, etc). If they are installed and maintained properly, they are safe and reliable. There are several threads around here about them, so a search will turn up the info.
If you want a ridiculously simple solution for occasional heat, look into a http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5036A850&categoryid=3000. Drop it in a cupholder, or make a simple dash mount that lets you rotate it to aim at you or the windshield. (I know, not an elegant solution. But I am going to headers, rarely need heat, and like to keep my 914 as simple and light as possible, so it works for me.)
Posted by: racunniff Sep 19 2007, 10:10 PM
Forget electric. One that would actually work takes more power than you can supply in a car.
I'm putting an electric heater in mine:
http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/Heater.html
But I have 1200 pounds of batteries to draw from
http://volt914.blogspot.com/2007/07/144v-pack-is-charging.html
Posted by: alpha434 Sep 19 2007, 10:31 PM
Forget electric. One that would actually work takes more power than you can supply in a car.
They make little units you can throw on your dash that almost work for a defroster (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36711) but they will make your stock wiring dangerously hot in 15 minutes and don't do much. Making real heat from car electricity is out of the question.
The gas heaters work (Eberspacher, Webasto, etc). If they are installed and maintained properly, they are safe and reliable. There are several threads around here about them, so a search will turn up the info.
If you want a ridiculously simple solution for occasional heat, look into a http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5036A850&categoryid=3000. Drop it in a cupholder, or make a simple dash mount that lets you rotate it to aim at you or the windshield. (I know, not an elegant solution. But I am going to headers, rarely need heat, and like to keep my 914 as simple and light as possible, so it works for me.)
Where does the carbon monoxide go?
Posted by: 9146986 Sep 19 2007, 10:54 PM
I got a very near NOS Webasto, originally for a 356. I was going to make it work in a 914, still have it, but I won't be doing that proj any time soon.
Posted by: boxstr Sep 19 2007, 10:57 PM
How about seat heaters?? CAMP 914 sells them.
CCLINHOTBUNS
Posted by: Chuck Sep 19 2007, 11:20 PM
How about seat heaters?? CAMP 914 sells them.
CCLINHOTBUNS
I need to keep the windshield defogged when rainy. I can actually live w/o heat in the car except for that. Just hate to pay $1,000 more for heat exchangers versus headers just for that.
Posted by: Rand Sep 19 2007, 11:35 PM
Where does the carbon monoxide go?
Not all heaters produce dangerous levels of carbon monoxide. http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5053A751&categoryid=3000 using the same design that is "Designed for indoor use."
The one thing you DO have to pay attention to however is: They consume oxygen. My 914 isn't so air-tight that it's a problem on my short morning commutes. But if you were going on a long drive you should crack a window.
Posted by: alpha434 Sep 19 2007, 11:35 PM
I was serious... Where does the exhaust go? I might like that device- unless it shouldn't be used in a confined space...
Posted by: Bartlett 914 Sep 20 2007, 08:12 AM
I was serious... Where does the exhaust go? I might like that device- unless it shouldn't be used in a confined space...
In order to be safe for use inside, it would need a catalytic converter. Another problem is with propane a lot of moisture is generated which won't help defogging of the windshield.
Posted by: Zundfolge Sep 20 2007, 09:43 AM
I need to keep the windshield defogged when rainy. I can actually live w/o heat in the car except for that.
Honestly NO heater/defroster is better than a weak one.
My 914 has headers so no heat for me, but I found that I could keep the windows from fogging up on the inside by keeping the window cracked an inch or so ... sure it makes the interior colder, but bundle up and you'll be fine.
As for keeping the windshield defrosted ... there's a long list of reasons not to take the teener out in the ice and snow.
Posted by: EyeTrip Sep 20 2007, 10:09 AM
I don't know how much room you have with a 6, but is there any way you could rig up an external oil cooler with a fan and pipe it into the heater ducts?
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Sep 20 2007, 10:17 AM
If you are just concerned about windshield fogging, and not about actual heat, give any of the anti-fog compounds a try. Rain-X makes one that has been mentioned in the thread. There are several others in the market as well. The stuff has been around for quite a while, I used to use it to keep my paintball mask from fogging (before anti-fog masks became popular, as I said, its been about 15 years).
I'll be appling some sort of anti-fog to my 914 once it become drivable (also no heat), and lots of regular old rain-x on the outside too - the stuff makes a night and day difference if you get caught in a storm, you almost don't need wipers.
Zach
Posted by: marks914 Sep 20 2007, 10:40 AM
My setup would probably work, it will be available in a few weeks
Mark
Check out my website for mor info
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2357708820057582025VWcQLH
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Sep 20 2007, 10:48 AM
My setup would probably work, it will be available in a few weeks
Mark
Check out my website for mor info
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2357708820057582025VWcQLH
If the car in question is a water-pumper. Which most of our cars are not.
Looks like a slick solution though, if you are. Does it actually scavenge enough heat to work?
Zach
Posted by: stephenaki Sep 20 2007, 02:15 PM
No electric heater will work effectively, the alternator cannot supply enough power!
SSI heater boxes along with a functional stock heating system both works effectively and is cost effective with all alternatives I know about.
Funny this topic should come up, just asked the owner of the 914 I just bought whether or not the car had heat or not! Since I will pick it up probably in November and be driving through the Austrian Alps on my way home, heat would be nice!
Anyone know how big of a job it would be to swap out the headers for the SSI set up? I may have to do that before I hit the road after I pick up the car if I find out that there is no heat for the ride.
Posted by: Rand Sep 20 2007, 02:21 PM
I was serious... Where does the exhaust go? I might like that device- unless it shouldn't be used in a confined space...
It's catalytic and safe for indoor use. Not enough exhaust / carbon monoxide to worry about. It can be used in a confined space (unless you're planning on sleeping with it in an airtight box). Crack a window if you're inside long enough to worry about it using up your oxygen. My car isn't that air tight. Not an issue.
Posted by: tdgray Sep 20 2007, 02:30 PM
Why reinvent the wheel
Just use the VW gas heater. Very safe if used correctly and IIRC the thing puts out MASSIVE amounts of heat.
Posted by: GeorgeRud Sep 20 2007, 02:38 PM
I bought an Eberspacher gasoline fired heater off eBay last year, and was planning to mount it and use it for heating. I fired it up on the bench and it puts out tons of heat.
There were pictures floating around of one mounted in the front trunk of a 914, looked like a factory deal. I never got around to the project, and found a good set of used heat exchangers, so I shelved the project. It should work if someone just tries to follow what the factory did. You can also follow the ideas that Porsche used in the early 911s, as they also had these available as an option.
Posted by: Chuck Sep 20 2007, 03:07 PM
I need to keep the windshield defogged when rainy. I can actually live w/o heat in the car except for that.
As for keeping the windshield defrosted ... there's a long list of reasons not to take the teener out in the ice and snow.
Yep, I miswrote when I wrote defroster - meant to write defogger. My car will NOT see ice, snow or salt when it is done!!
Posted by: marks914 Sep 21 2007, 01:41 AM
My setup would probably work, it will be available in a few weeks
Mark
Check out my website for mor info
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2357708820057582025VWcQLH
If the car in question is a water-pumper. Which most of our cars are not.
Looks like a slick solution though, if you are. Does it actually scavenge enough heat to work?
Zach
You have to run oil through there instead of water
Mark
Posted by: Brian Mifsud Sep 21 2007, 11:37 AM
I'm curious if anyone here has ever put some sort of electric heater into their 914. 914-6 heat exchangers, or equivalent, are $1500+. A header can be had for $400 and increases performance.
I can live without heat per se, but I will really need a defrost option in my car. Anyone rigged something up? Care to share?If I was going to rely on electric heating, I'd first put a heater into the seats for personal comfort.
Defrost vs Defog is another animal. Of course you need some high heat and very fast air flow to melt any ice. You might consider an electric heating element in the airbox, but I'd make darn sure that the fan MUST be activated before current is allowed to flow to the heating elements.. so a "lockout" of some sort is in order.
Defoggig really requires dry air. Either you "superheat" humid air, or you put in an AC system and heat the dried air before blasting the windshield (much like most cars built after the mid-80s do).
I believe though, that after adding up all the costs, it might just be a "push" to have a fabricator weld up some custom boxes around your new headers for a much simpler and conventional system.
Posted by: Chuck Sep 21 2007, 12:38 PM
I believe though, that after adding up all the costs, it might just be a "push" to have a fabricator weld up some custom boxes around your new headers for a much simpler and conventional system.
[/quote]
I was reading the classi thread that Dan (Root Werks) had put together on his 6 conversion. He used Bursch headers and fabbed a heater setup off of thos. That looks like a nice solution.
Posted by: Eddie914 Sep 21 2007, 08:26 PM
I installed one of these:
http://www.autobarn.net/3000c.html
I know it doesn't get very cold in Seattle but it's a lot better than nothing.
Eddie
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