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Posted by: DNHunt Sep 24 2007, 09:48 PM

Yep, what brought me to Atlanta was the opportunity to rebuild my engine in Jake's shop. I shipped it back here about a month ago. We put the details together a few months ago.

I reported at 0600 as I was instructed to do. My stuff had been uncrated and was at a stainless bench. I got a small tour and saw some of the stuff they were working on. Soon enough it was time to get to work. My stuff must have gotten wet in transit because there was surface rust on some of the steel parts. I started in cleaning up. I'm convinced most of engine building is cleaning. Things went well and I met everyone as they came in. Everyone was very friendly and helpful. As you can imagine I had to ask for help quite often.

After an hour or so, I started measuring the big ends of the rods. They were pretty good and we determined the clearance was fine. Ok, this isn't so hard. I assembled the crankshaft by lunch. I had the bearings on right, slipped the cam gear on with just a little persuasion. I was starting to feel real good, even a little cocky, joking with the guys and really enjoying it. Jake thought I'd get a shortblock together!



After lunch I got the case ready to assemble. I tried in the cam and Brent thought it was really good So, was ready to load the left side of the case.



Well, you know what's coming. This was entirely too easy. It started with a few small things. The oil pump showed some wear. Ok, I'll get a new oil pump no biggy. Jake wanted me to match port the inlet for the oil pump so I went and ground it out. Jake looked at it and I left a barb so, I ground and smoothed that. I'd filed abit of the cam gear on the crankshaht to clean it up. I knew wasn't perfect but, I thought it would go. Brent came over to try and turn it and it went for a bit then clunk. What's that?. Brent said cam gear. Utoh! We worked with it a bit but, it wasn't right and it really wasn't getting any better. Brent pressed off the gear and I found an old one to cleanup to replace the one I fuched pulling with a gear puller. An hour later we're ready to put the gear on the crank. I put the hot gear on and Brent says "Is the gear lined up with the key?" I say "Yep" It doesnt slip on and when he persuades it the key starts to come out. Not lined up. Crap



When it cooled off he pressed it again. Well, third time was the charm. About then he left and said I could stay if I wanted. I thought I would make sure everything rotated and he said "You could get it to the short block". Message received so I stayed until 9.

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 24 2007, 09:52 PM

It's a short block





Gawd I'm tired

Dave

Posted by: Zimms Sep 24 2007, 09:54 PM

Dave,

Did you buy a 2270 kit when you first upgraded to a 2270 & did you do it in your garage if so? I am planning to go a similar route with a 2270 and MS, but have some rust and body work to do before I even think of allocating funds towards and engine.

Thanks,

Mark

Posted by: John Sep 24 2007, 10:14 PM

You were at Jakes?

What the heck is this?

I cant believe you had that anywhere near an engine.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2007, 06:01 AM

Now Dave knows what a 15 hour day is like in Heaven... Tomorrow night I'll pull an all nighter and will see if he can put in a solid 20!!

Dave has been plagued with stupid issues that are absolutely not possibly explained with his engine kit. Dave bought this kit in 2004, before my kit program was refined at the retail level it is now.

Because Dave has had the same issues and new issues continued to pop up I invited him to do two things:
1- Send me the engine and I would reassemble and test it for him FREE OF CHARGE.

2- Allow him to come into my world and assemble it under our watchful eyes and dyno it afterward.

Dave has been an outstanding, patient and absolutely dedicated customer since day one and I will go out of my way to ensure someone like him who is determined ends up getting as much of my assistance as possible when they have an issue.

I have never allowed anyone other than my absolute closest friends to assemble engines here, or even come into the shop and thats because we are very busy and not very social when the clock is ticking. When I met Dave at the end of my cross country trip in 2006 I wanted to help him sort these issues he had been having even more than ever and when he hit his last issue thats when I made the invite for him to bring the engine back home and get the problem taken care of.

BTW- Dave dug that adjustable wrenc out of the bottom drawer of my tool box, I keep it around for doing plumbing work at the shop and had it handy because I had to inastall a water pressure regulator on the new dyno last week :-))

Posted by: jimkelly Sep 25 2007, 07:42 AM

very very cool - best to you all!

jim

Posted by: URY914 Sep 25 2007, 09:09 AM

One day I hope to go to Heaven too.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 25 2007, 09:18 AM

Jake it looks a lot more crowded in the shop than when I was there 2 years ago. Of course ya'll were doing field day.

Dave Good luck in this engine build and may it be your final iteration of the 2270 for your car.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 25 2007, 09:22 AM

QUOTE(John @ Sep 24 2007, 09:14 PM)

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 25 2007, 09:28 AM

shop area in my garage will be cleaned and sanitized by the time you get home. check with the boss and block out the first wed you have off. i KNOW your weekends will full of non-914 activities for the next year or so. very cool dave. i'll talk to you when you get home. if you should need a pick up at sea-tac, have betsy call me with the flight details and i'll come get you.

k

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2007, 11:16 AM

This is our busiest time of the year here at the shop, so things are cluttered much more than I like. I am doing Pinzgauer engine development in the lab right behind where Dave is working and that is making for even more clutter.

Dave has already learned so many tricks... So far today he has used both an oven and a frezer during cylinder and piston assembly!

According to conventional; wisdom his engine should never even run :-)

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 25 2007, 11:28 AM

In part because of the problems Dave had, and the support Jake gave him, I have a Raby 2270 kit in my car. I liked the concept of a dyno tested and road tested combo. I just didn't know about Jake...

The support Dave got and is getting, pretty much made my decision.

But, I have to say, if given the opportunity Dave got, have Jake assemble it or do it myself under Jake's watchful eye. I would let Jake do it. Dave is one stubborn dude. He is not going to let that engine beat him.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2007, 12:29 PM

Dave isn't stubborn- he is determined and thats why he is in my shop right now.

I do my best to help anyone that buys from us of course if Dave would have been the type to yell, scream and cuss he would have been on his own for the past 3.5 years without any support (I hate people like that and avoid them at all costs!)

Lets not forget the significant outlay of time and support that Charles from LN Engineering has put into this very odd, very unexplained one of a kind situation. Charles has "ate" two sets of cylinders, replating, numerous ring sets and even paid serious bucks in consulting with JE Pistons to figure out this issue.

So far Charles is in the project more than I am... Probably about 5K as a good estimate.

I gave Dave every opportunity to get our free labor, but he was too dedicated to care.

Posted by: toon1 Sep 25 2007, 02:11 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 25 2007, 10:16 AM)

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 25 2007, 02:25 PM

QUOTE(toon1 @ Sep 25 2007, 01:11 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 25 2007, 10:16 AM)

This is our busiest time of the year here at the shop, so things are cluttered much more than I like. I am doing Pinzgauer engine development in the lab right behind where Dave is working and that is making for even more clutter.

Dave has already learned so many tricks... So far today he has used both an oven and a frezer during cylinder and piston assembly!

According to conventional; wisdom his engine should never even run :-)

An oven and a freezer to asseble pistons and cyls.!? do tell...


I am not familliar with the probs. Dave had with the motor, what were they?

what was found to be wrong and how is it getting fixed?

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 25 2007, 02:28 PM

QUOTE(toon1 @ Sep 25 2007, 04:11 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 25 2007, 10:16 AM)

This is our busiest time of the year here at the shop, so things are cluttered much more than I like. I am doing Pinzgauer engine development in the lab right behind where Dave is working and that is making for even more clutter.

Dave has already learned so many tricks... So far today he has used both an oven and a frezer during cylinder and piston assembly!

According to conventional; wisdom his engine should never even run :-)

An oven and a freezer to asseble pistons and cyls.!? do tell...


I am not familliar with the probs. Dave had with the motor, what were they?

what was found to be wrong and how is it getting fixed?

Posted by: brer Sep 25 2007, 02:31 PM

i'd put my money on either the piston pin,
or the nachos.

Posted by: McMark Sep 25 2007, 02:37 PM

Wrist pin is pretty likely.

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 25 2007, 02:42 PM

Is that a metric crescent wrench?

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 25 2007, 02:45 PM

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Sep 25 2007, 01:42 PM)

Is that a metric crescent wrench?

Posted by: byndbad914 Sep 25 2007, 02:56 PM

QUOTE(John @ Sep 24 2007, 08:14 PM)

Posted by: crash914 Sep 25 2007, 07:06 PM

Dave, learn all you can, take notes and get this one right...third time is the charm....I am learning the hard way too....

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 25 2007, 07:42 PM

Ok , lets get it clear on the crescent wrench. There are 2 uses for baiting you guys and loosening the bolt on the engine stand which is not metric. You guys pick. By the way, no sign of a pipe wrench.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 25 2007, 08:34 PM

Today was better day. I reported at 0600 again. Jake was already there. I started work after a few words over coffee. The plan was long block but, Len still had my heads and won't get them until tomorrow. By the way, Len stands behind his products too.

The day started with finishing the oil control system. Jake showed me how to tighten fixtures that use compression washer without a torque wrench. I'll probably still use a torque wrench however. The details he sees; he stopped to center the washer under the smaller oil releif plug so it would squish evenly. I filed that one. After a while, and Brent took a look. Doh! I forgot to torque the the case bolt through the oil pickup. I got a raised eyebrow over that.



Next I spent a hour at least cleaning parts again. I had to clean honing residue out of the cylinders. The process was spray with carb cleaner and wipe with a giant lint free Cleanex. The tissue had to come out as white as it went in. No soap and water BS. Carb cleaner and elbow grease. When I was done the bore looked like chrome. I filed that.

Then the ring gap procedure. Measure an upper and a 2nd compression in in 2 cylinders. These were way tight I thought and I figured I'd be gaping rings. Instead, 1 cylinder went in the oven at 350 degrees and the other went in the freezer for about an hour. Then we measured again. I had to rethink my ideas of ring cap.

Next, I had to make sure that the cylinder base shims didn't interfere with the cylinders when hot so, I put a shim on a cylinder and back in the oven to 350. The shim had to slip off when hot. It did. By the way I forgot to turn the oven off and wasted an hour.



Deck height was next. I forgot to zero the indicator so I about shit over .059, 056, 057, 052. When I got it figured out everything was fine but I got another raised eyebrow.

I finished the day by torqueing down everything with some borrowed turbo heads with square ports and BMW E36 valves. Pretty cool.

I left at 1815 came back to the motel had a beer and a shower. Later I went to a cool little tavern on the banks of a little stream for dinner and a couple of pints. Cute little waitress.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 25 2007, 08:42 PM

I really would like my engine to look like this. This what Brent has been working on . He really has been very patient with me and I owe him big time.



Mine looks like this

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 25 2007, 08:45 PM

By the way, I got to work on a a Pinzgauer today


Attached image(s)

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 25 2007, 08:49 PM

Here's Brent, the master of patience.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 25 2007, 08:49 PM

Dave You seem to be doing fine. Raised eyebrows are OK it's the raised Cresent wrench that would get my attention.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 25 2007, 09:42 PM

Dave has been a really good recruit... Some people I really like to educate, others that don't take the topic as seriously don't get much info at all..

Dave is hardcore for sure, he impressed me sure when he ate a burger with a wrench in one hand, not breaking away for a lunch break...

Brent and I have both been tossing secrets toward Dave to help him build this engine as well as we could, which was the whole point of Dave's trip.

Tom and I have been working on pinzgauer EFI development leaving Dave under the watchful eye of Brent, but he'll be getting my attention all day Thursday and Friday when the engine comes into the dyno lab for proving.Dave, thanks for the electronics assistance when hooking up the Pinz TPS!

BTW- Dave got to meet Mallory this morning, my crazy assed Rottweiler mix.. See her crashed out on the floor of the shop- she don't like waking up at 0400.

Dave gets to sleep in tomorrow morning, show time is 0800 but I'll be pulling an all nighter tomorrow night and if that engine of Dave's isn't bolted on the Dyno ready to fire up Thursday morning Dave will be right beside me ........

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 26 2007, 10:11 AM

Cool name for a dog. Mallory.
Our Shepard Chow mix is Dipstick. She has a 2" black tip on her tail.

Posted by: vesnyder Sep 26 2007, 10:52 AM

Anxiously awaiting an update! Given I am in the the middle of a backyard rebuild I can't relate to the progress! You guys get done in 3 days what takes me 6 months! Looks like fun!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2007, 11:25 AM

Dave is making good progress now, he is ready for sheetmetal and then bolting it to the dyno!

Posted by: John Sep 26 2007, 11:58 AM

I sure hope it works this time.

Good luck Dave.

Go Dave Go!

Posted by: stephenaki Sep 26 2007, 12:18 PM

QUOTE(DNHunt @ Sep 25 2007, 06:34 PM)

Posted by: John Sep 26 2007, 12:26 PM

QUOTE(stephenaki @ Sep 26 2007, 10:18 AM)

Posted by: stephenaki Sep 26 2007, 12:30 PM

QUOTE(John @ Sep 26 2007, 10:26 AM)

QUOTE(stephenaki @ Sep 26 2007, 10:18 AM)

Looks like your learning a lot, nothing like having experts around to help you through the process. Did you hot tank the block before you started the rebuild?

Now how do you 'hot tank' an aluminum engine case? The 'hot tank' is for cast iron blocks.

Posted by: mstein95 Sep 26 2007, 02:04 PM

I forsee "Aircooled Heaven - Pacific NW Division" located in beautiful Gig Harbor, Washington.

Dave - Should I make a rebuild appt with the Fircrest office, the home office or what?

Do I dare say.....Kevin can run the Type IV store - PNW Division.

We all envy you Dave!!!
Can't wait to hear all about it upon your return.

Posted by: dinomium Sep 26 2007, 02:48 PM

go cat go!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2007, 03:23 PM

Dave only has 5 days to build and dyno the engine, thats just enough time to get the job done working at a steady pace without rushing.

Here we build in stages and clean the parts and etc for those stages as we approach them..

Guess why??? Thats because cleaning parts as you assemble keeps dust and other foreign matter from having time to accumulate on the parts. If you clean everything then let it sit while assembling you'll gain some dust for sure. We work in the cleanest atmosphere possible, but there is still dust about no matter what. As I assemble I take the time to hit each part with denatured alcohol as I install them.

But thats why I only personally assemble 4-5 engines a year and it takes me 5X longer than it should.

Posted by: craig downs Sep 26 2007, 07:33 PM

How did he get thru valve train geometry so fast?

Posted by: davep Sep 26 2007, 07:42 PM

I must have missed the report on why the engine failed yet again. Was there a smoking gun?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2007, 08:09 PM

QUOTE(craig downs @ Sep 26 2007, 06:33 PM)

Posted by: craig downs Sep 26 2007, 08:26 PM

Good luck hope everything works out without any problems.
This has been a very exciting and fun thread

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2007, 08:33 PM

We'll post pics later..

It's gonna be a long night and Dave isn't fading too much yet! Now that the engine is back in my realm and out of the assembly area we'll be making some huge changes..

Friday will be a day Dave will never forget!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2007, 09:01 PM

Some pics

Here is recruit Dave after a 13 hour day in Heaven.


Another MassIVe 4 ready for the final touches


Here I am wheeling it into the lab


How the beast sits now..

we'll get the data logger hooked up, oil pressure built and have it ready for action bright an early tomorrow morning before calling it a night...

Posted by: SGB Sep 26 2007, 09:23 PM

ENVY!!

Posted by: Tom Sep 26 2007, 09:31 PM

Jake,
you sure stand behind your research and builds. Have to respect that in a person. You are OK in my book.
Dave,
What can I say except, WOW, you must be really stoked! What determination. Can't wait to see the car run. PCA AX 10/20?
Tom

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 26 2007, 09:48 PM

Dave is the only engine kit customer we have ever had encounter issues like these. Charles and I are bound and determined to sek out and destroy the issue and ensure that it never has a chance to repeat it's self.

We do research for a reason and to date an engine hasn't kicked my ass yet.

Posted by: teen914 Sep 26 2007, 11:42 PM

are you going to dyno it with carbs? i thought my dad was going to show you the megasquirt?

~Gerry

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 12:03 AM

0100 and Dave just headed back to the hotel.....

Yes, we'll be dynoing it with carbs first only for a base line to ensure the leak down numbers are acceptable and the engine is stable before installing the MS....

I believe the MS causing extreme rich conditions at over run has been the root of most of the evil surrounding this engine..

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 27 2007, 08:44 AM

Dumb question time:

No fan? No fan shroud? Why?

--DD

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 27 2007, 09:30 AM

my guess is the shroud is off so they can fine tune, make adjustments to the crank fire setup if needed. get those jetting #s dave. i'm starting to think a stepup to 2270 as opposed to 2056 is not such a bad idea. i still have the opportunity. everything happens for a reason...

k

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 10:20 AM

Shroud is off so I could precisely position my senders for the data logger under each spark plug. These sensors hate HEI and static and must be ran as far away from plug leads as possible.

The test session is underway!

Posted by: dinomium Sep 27 2007, 02:51 PM

great thread guys,

Glad to see that Dave still hasn't found a barber!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 03:00 PM

It's all in the combo

After a small dyno room fire and some burned hands we got some results..

Dave's Mega Squirt has squirted out, so the remainder of the dyno work will be with my 45 Dells and a Mallory..

This is the first pull, with default tuning. Note where the peak HP is made and note the absolutely flat torque curve.

And the heads still haven't touched 330F, oil hasn't hit 220

It has more in it, the bar has been raised to 190.



Its funny what a trip back home can do. BUT we are not getting too happy till we do the leak down.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 27 2007, 03:13 PM

Holy Rock and Rolly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 03:58 PM

The new bar is now 200
This is the strongest 2270 pump gas engine to date!
Dave was right next to me!

Posted by: Travis Neff Sep 27 2007, 04:11 PM

Awesome!

Posted by: 904svo Sep 27 2007, 04:30 PM

Is Dave going to get rid of that EFI system an go back to carbs?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 04:32 PM

QUOTE(904svo @ Sep 27 2007, 03:30 PM)

Is Dave going to get rid of that EFI system an go back to carbs?

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 27 2007, 04:43 PM

Great stuff! Dave I'm glad you got to experience Aircooled Heaven. It blew me away the first time I visited Jakes shop, and that was before the nice, modern new building. Jake is a perfectionist and loves a good challenge. I suspect that if your issues had been related to poor preperation and not something truly perplexing you wouldn't have gotten the generous offer to assemble your engine in Jakes facility.

Those are outstanding power #'s. 200hp is right around the corner as we have some serious new head developments on one of Jakes test engines as we speak. It has some ground breaking chamber technology that will be surprisingly affordable. It's something I've been working on for over a year now. I think we'll be ready to go public with it soon. The fun never stops!

Posted by: rtalich Sep 27 2007, 04:57 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 27 2007, 03:32 PM)

QUOTE(904svo @ Sep 27 2007, 03:30 PM)

Is Dave going to get rid of that EFI system an go back to carbs?

That was my recommendation!!!!

Posted by: Travis Neff Sep 27 2007, 05:07 PM

Is that power even possible with the common plenum that Dave was running before?

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 27 2007, 05:08 PM

ZOIKS!!!! screw the MS. buy the carbs on the engine. time for a cv joint upgrade huh? i have an extra trans or 2 for when your's goes KABLOOEY. are you going to take 2 sparkplug wires off when jer drives it?

K

Posted by: 73Phoenix20 Sep 27 2007, 05:09 PM

Look at that friggin' Torque "Curve"!!!

Okay, I want one for the 912E I am contemplating, so that I can P*** off SC's at the next local DE at Gingerman Raceway!!!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 05:13 PM

QUOTE(rtalich @ Sep 27 2007, 03:57 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 27 2007, 03:32 PM)

QUOTE(904svo @ Sep 27 2007, 03:30 PM)

Is Dave going to get rid of that EFI system an go back to carbs?

That was my recommendation!!!!

Try it with an SDS system and direct fire....

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 27 2007, 05:26 PM

are those #s with a tangerine and one of chris' mufflers? i'm TOTALLY impressed.

k

Posted by: crash914 Sep 27 2007, 05:51 PM

I like the Bsfc #'s ...run it at 6K all day long and get fuel economy to boot...

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 27 2007, 06:01 PM

I bet Dave is totally blown away! I know I am. His engine is pretty much identical to mine with the exception of the Nickies and pistons I think? Am I right on that Jake? Mine is the limited edition run that was the same as your Hot VW engine...
Mine feels amazing. This morning on the way in to work I was cruising at about 80mph in 4th gear and if I wanted a little more for a pass, I just squeezed a little harder on the loud pedal. Mine will go to the chassis dyno soon. I was hoping for 125 - 130HP at the wheels.
This is huge! You have doubled the HP of the stock engine in a very streetable configuration!

Posted by: Rand Sep 27 2007, 06:13 PM

Now I am dying to know..... 45 Dells or MS????

What's it going to be in the end?

Jake, would you want to see this thing stay with the carbs?

I know FI is superior blah blah blah. I have argued that plenty of times. But I'll tell you what, I will gladly trade warm-up and all the other "pleasure" benefits of FI for balls out warmed-up bottom line. I don't give a rip about weather friendliness, warm-up periods, and any other weenie conveniences. I am interested in what happens AFTER all that. What works best when it comes to simple performance?

When would YOU use SDS vs. these Dells?

Posted by: mstein95 Sep 27 2007, 06:24 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 27 2007, 02:58 PM)

The new bar is now 200
This is the strongest 2270 pump gas engine to date!
Dave was right next to me!

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 27 2007, 06:38 PM

Posted by: Rand Sep 27 2007, 06:41 PM

LOL. Paul! I'm not taking sides yet! I am really looking forward to what boils down from this though.

I'll gladly eat my FI words with extra hot sauce and a side of crow if it comes to that. ESPECIALLY if Dave comes to the same conclusion.

For sure, I'll always trade all the creature comforts and conveniences for the bottom line.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 27 2007, 07:05 PM

I don't think Jake is throwing in the EFI towel at present. A careful read seems to indicate that Dave's MS was fubar. Not that EFI or MS for that matter is fubar.

I would bet that Dave can get even more HP, Torque, and driveability with SDS. They are just out of "Dave in Georgia" time and dyno time...

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 27 2007, 07:26 PM

The common plenium was probably limiting Dave's engine. I would think that with EFI using ITBs he should be able to see similar power levels.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 07:31 PM

First off- I LOVE EFI and have two FI equipped cars and at the present I am developing a bolt on EFI system for my Pinzgauer, to sell to other Pinz owners- My Wife's German Look vert also has programmable EFI... All of the above are SDS systems with our combo, except my CIS equipped Company Bus... This year we have only built 3 carbureted MassIVe engines, our EFI program is fully developed-period...

I also love carbs, grew up with them and appreciate their simplicity and on days like we had today they are a true savior... When I bolted MY 45 Dells and pulled ther

I am thoroughly unimpressed by mega squirt, it is cluttered and even with Dave's attention to detail it wasted 5 hours of our time today. I feel VERY STRONGLY that the over run enrichment with MS has been the root of most of Dave's issues- I hate it when things cost me time, trouble and money over a period of almost 4 years and cause my customers issues that APPEAR to be flaws in my program and components. At this point I feel MS is just another cheap alternative that requires constant tinkering and manipulation and is not predictable- I don't play that and never will. I also have second degree burns on my hands from that damn MS harnass and I was ready to throw it in my pond earlier today-

Dave's engine shouldn't be doing this- The cam he has is one of my split duration variants that I have never attempted to use with carbs. It was important that I break the ethat Dave ngine in with my carbs to ensure the ring seating issues didn't occur during break in due to a super rich mixture. Removing as many variables as possible from what Dave had been using wasmy idea and it has
worked.

At the end of the day today we had only 5% leak down with the engine hot which is acceptable for an engine of this spec with the skirt clearances, ring gaps and expansion rates.

Tomorrow we are not concerned with making HP at all, I want that engine to run for 8 solid hours with leak down tests every hour.

I will kick this issue's ass if it is the last thing I ever do.

I'll close by saying that Dave's combo will receive further development after he leaves- this cam has some unlocked doors for sure and it is totally unexplainable.

When I bolted MY 45 Dells and pulled the Mallory out of my Bus (out of stock in the store) the engine fired up in less than one revolution

Posted by: Rand Sep 27 2007, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Sep 27 2007, 06:05 PM)

Posted by: toon1 Sep 27 2007, 07:34 PM

Hey Dave! if you go to carbs I am first in line for your 36-1 wheel

Posted by: Rand Sep 27 2007, 07:36 PM

Thanks for keeping us posted Jake.

Dave, we are all appreciating your determination and great things are coming from this.

Good stuff!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 07:41 PM

QUOTE(Rand @ Sep 27 2007, 06:32 PM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Sep 27 2007, 06:05 PM)

I don't think Jake is throwing in the EFI towel at present. A careful read seems to indicate that Dave's MS was fubar. Not that EFI or MS for that matter is fubar.

I would bet that Dave can get even more HP, Torque, and driveability with SDS. They are just out of "Dave in Georgia" time and dyno time...

I'm with you Rob. I don't mean to bring about the FI vs. Carbs debate at all. I know FI is superior! :
But I am uber curious to see what comes out of this unique build.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 27 2007, 07:44 PM

Posted by: cgnj Sep 27 2007, 08:23 PM

Well, after following this thread, I'm grateful no one jumped on my dells. Just pulled my ad. Going to rethink the MS system.

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 27 2007, 08:24 PM

What a couple of days. I wish I could have written something yesterday but I was simply exhausted. 17 hours and I was just shot. But that was a good day. I took it from a short block through setting it up on the dyno and getting oil pressure.



Some one asked about valve train geometry. We really didn't change the engin e width so the pushrods I had gave identical lift on #1 to what I had before and the half lift geometry was was fine so I only checked 1 cylinder. I was so thankful.

Interestingly I only had to adjust a couple of adjusters so, valve adjustment was quick too. One really funny thing was the deck height. Jake came over and took a look and said "Looks like .060. It urned out .059. Now I deal in close tolerances but, I was impressed.

Seeing it wheeled in to the dyno room was a time of trepidation. I was worried about an oil leak, or it blowby so I had some awful dreams. No way I could have known what was coming.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 27 2007, 08:29 PM

QUOTE(cgnj @ Sep 27 2007, 07:23 PM)

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 27 2007, 09:05 PM

Today was a day real highs and real lows. Jake and his crew have put up with questions, offered advice when they saw me heading down the wrong road, interrupted their work to help me put up with bench spread as my stuff takes up more room and all the time made me feel welcome. That includes sharing the absolute worst Homer Simpson image I ever seen.

First the worst, the darn thing wouldn't start, no spark. Right away, I knew this was my issue to fix. We were going to use MS to control spark and carbs to provide fuel to break it in and then Jake wanted the info for comparison. No matter what I did there was no tach signal. I've swapped and tested and and I still can't find the problem. I wasted the whole morning with my engine on the dyno.

And, it got worse. Once it was decided that we would change to a dizzy I started to disconnect and remove my harness. I unwrapped the electricians tape on a splice in the 12v feed and went to get a tool to cut it. It shorted to ground and the insulation on the lines melted and both the 12V line and the ground caught fire. The 12v line fell on the fuel line and for a few seconds there was a flame. Jake actually grabbed it and ripped it apart. Later he said "If I had brought the Pinzgauer I'd run over something.". I'm not sure if the something is me. I suspect it is my Megasquirt.

Fortunately, things got better. The engine started on the first turn with a Mallory and Dellortos. You guys saw the pulls. ABSOLUTELY amazing.

It is for certain that the stock plenum can't supply the engine with air, so I have to make some decisions. I really like FI but you can't argue with the numbers. Undoubtedly, I'd need individual throttle bodies or carbs. What a good decision to have to make.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 27 2007, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(DNHunt @ Sep 27 2007, 08:05 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 27 2007, 09:15 PM

Dave,
Get your ass in bed!!

Be ready to do a valve adjustment, cold leak down and compression test as soon as walk in the door tomorrow morning @0600.

Be ready to hone your dyno skills because tomorrow its your turn behind the controls because I HAVE to get my data from the Pinzgauer engine!

Posted by: 904svo Sep 27 2007, 10:33 PM

Dave, I would stay with the carbs for now, I'm sure Jake will get around to trying
a EFI system thats just a good as carbs some day. He has proven to us that all
his testing is for the best products for the typeIV, and they work! Then he stands
behind it. I don't know any other vendor how will do that.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Sep 27 2007, 11:18 PM

I disagree - pull out the credit card and buy a SDS from Jake. It ain't as fun to play around with as MS, but way more versatile than carbs. Someone recently posted about a shop that had Jenvy ITBs on sale...somewhere.
Great 2270 dyno pull!
I'm gonna assume it was w/o cooling fan, alternator, and with killer exhaust??
Makes me want to unhook my fan and alternator - like the folks at Hamilton engineering here in NorCal - to get that extra 10% or so HP wasted on these tasks. Not streetable 100%, but great for racing.
Rock on Jake and Dave - awesome thread

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 05:20 AM

The fan is in place and we are using a full Tangerine EVO exhaust, just like what Dave has in his car already. We are NOT using the alternator, but it generally pull 3-4 HP from a 6,500 RPM capable engine- FYI.

Dave and I just walked in the door here at the shop, today we'll be swapping engine oil very carefully measuring the volume of oil we pour into the engine and measuring that after the final dyno session today to measure the engine's oil consumption. This coupled with hot and cold leakdown values and compression tests should prove that the issue is resolved.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 28 2007, 07:34 AM

Posted by: tdgray Sep 28 2007, 07:43 AM

WOW... Unbelievable amount of attention to detail going on.

Seriously Jake... you are the MAN

Posted by: URY914 Sep 28 2007, 08:10 AM

This is a great thread. Dave, you're livin' the life.

Now don't try selling Jake's secrets to McLaren Mercedes. You'll get hit with a $100M fine!

Paul

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 09:07 AM

Good day so far.. We did a verification run and had repeatability within 2% from yesterday, even with altered weather..

Doing an oil swap now, removing some liquid wear inhibiting magic and replacing it with some HP producing magic. We are measuring the oil that is added into the engine as well as what we'll be removing for a true understanding of the actual oil consumption during today's testing sessions

I believe we'll see 202 today if this oil does what it has consistently in the past.

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 28 2007, 09:09 AM

The SDS is cool. But so are the Dels. We are running Dels on our house F-Prod car and I can honestly say that they had the best drivability of any race car I've driven since driving for my father. I know that a good deal of that was Jakes precise tuning, but the carbs were not race prepped, just pulled from the box and properly jetted for the weather and the engines needs. Ofcourse there is a big difference in the demands that are placed on an induction system from racing as compared to street use, but the Dels can handle it. I believe for some folks a well tuned carb engine will serve them better than an FI system that gives them the capability to tune in a serious problem.

Dave your chambers were heavily coated with unreacted fuel residue. It looks to me like the engine ran very rich. The fuel tracings in the port bowl area directly beneath the valves, along with the pattern on the back side of the intake valves supports this observation. Fuel washdown of the cylinder walls is a common problem. Especially on new engines that are broken in with an experimental induction system. As Jake said, it is a big no no to break in a new engine while trying out a new fuel system your not familiar with.
BTW, Homer Simpson will never look the same to me again!

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 09:26 AM

Yeah, the "Homer" is saved as my desktop background!!!

Many times we break in engines that will use FI systems we are not accustomed to with carbs, just like we have done with dave's- I have even done this on engines that we didn't have a known good fuel MAP for due to extreme power output.. Rich break ins are a HUGE isue.

I love Dellortos and always have- they are so much easier to tune and so much more driveable. I can work total magic with them.

Posted by: 904svo Sep 28 2007, 10:02 AM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 28 2007, 07:09 AM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 10:18 AM

Swapped oil "A" for oil "B" and now we are getting it warmed up for a direct comparison...

Still hunting for 200!

Len, what the **** did you do to these heads?? Whatever it is seriously works!

Posted by: jfort Sep 28 2007, 10:25 AM

fun thread. thanks and keep it up.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 28 2007, 10:31 AM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 28 2007, 08:09 AM)

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 28 2007, 11:36 AM

Jake, it's all in the combo, as you say!

Posted by: brer Sep 28 2007, 12:30 PM

Supersize me.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 12:50 PM

Made a fan swap, oil swap and left everything else alone...Then broke history for a 2270 pump gas 9.5:1 engine.

It's odd what putting a fan on a diet can do!

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 28 2007, 01:23 PM

Wow!! It looks like the planets aligned on this one. I went back and looked at my notes on Daves heads. His ports have the second generation CNC tool path. We are now up to Gen4! He got the same seat work as all other LE-200's using specific Serdi tooling that I have found to be quite effective. The same valves and valve train components as all other LE-200's.

All of the LE series heads are special due to the intense development that went (and continues to go) into them, but as LE-200's go, these were just another pair. And an earlier version at that!

Jake called me to ask specifics about the heads, but I really can't take much credit for the boost in power over a typical 2270. The combo and tuning are key here. The fabulous thermal qualities of the Nickies surely help and there can be no doubt that the Tangerine exhaust plays a major role too.

Take note folks, it pays to buy your components from someone dedicated to R&D. Save a little on your cam, heads and ex. system and leave 50+ hp (and God knows how much reliability) on the table!

Now I'm starting to think of 220hp from a 2270 on pump gas!

Posted by: davep Sep 28 2007, 01:52 PM

Does the engine have the "stock" crank mount fan, and does it have the "stock" alternator? If the alternator is installed, is it the 75 amp unit I provided?

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Sep 28 2007, 02:00 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 28 2007, 11:50 AM)

Posted by: krazykonrad Sep 28 2007, 02:58 PM

Thanks to Jake and Dave for putting on such a great thread! I learned a lot by just reading and a learned also how much I still don't know. Thanks again to both of you!

Konrad 72/4

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 28 2007, 03:07 PM

QUOTE(ChrisNPDrider @ Sep 28 2007, 01:00 PM)

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 28 2007, 11:50 AM)

It's odd what putting a fan on a diet can do!

Sounds like they swapped to a cooling fan with some blades removed.
I've read around here that there can be pretty big gains lightening the fan, removing blades, or swappin it out for other cooling options not directly tied to the engine (electric fans).

Awesome! Great see the the TIV climbing to new heights

Modded fan, higher compression, ported heads and 220 HP should be reachable with a 2270 kit.

Let us know how the temps do after the long pulls with that fan!

Posted by: Rand Sep 28 2007, 03:30 PM

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 28 2007, 04:06 PM

Darn near 210 hp, thats really something. Way to go Dude's.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 04:13 PM

The fan weight has nothing to do with these results- we are testing at steady state, weight of dynamic components only effects their acceleration speed-

The difference is the drag created by the added impeller blades- This is not the first time we have seen this, FYI.

A full explanation will be provided by Dave and I upon his return home to Washington next week.

We just completed the final leak down and compression tests and Dave is measuring the drained oil volume to measure consumption, none was noted on the dipstick, but we covered all the bases and measured the oil volume that the engine was filled to this morning.

Dave's issue has been solved.

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 28 2007, 04:18 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 28 2007, 06:13 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 04:31 PM

BTW- You'll have to guess which one of these fans was used to make the big power, they are from a post I made earlier this year found here.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=67917&hl=





Dave's issue goes backto 2004 and has cost myself and Charles at LN Engineering thousands of dollars (and now most of a week's labor) to resolve. Many things led up to it, all of which will be explained when Dave gets home.

All I can say is that there were no component issues.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 28 2007, 04:39 PM

It ended up that Dave's pack of cigs had fallen in behind the gas pedel and so...

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 28 2007, 04:40 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 28 2007, 03:13 PM)

Posted by: sixnotfour Sep 28 2007, 07:55 PM

Posted by: crash914 Sep 28 2007, 08:38 PM

wow!

Very informative. I hope my monster does as well.....this is something to live up to...keep on rockin....

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 28 2007, 08:55 PM

Well, I have so say I'm kind of overwhelmed. It's going to take a couple days to get a handle on everything. But here are a few thoughts. I had a great time even though I physically I'm beat. These guys work hard. I never expected anything like this. I can hardly wait to drive the beast but, I have to get a new intake first, No way I can run it with the stock intake.

I have some debts to repay in kindness in the future.

Tune lean. When I saw the plugs I couldn't believe it but I saw the head temps,

Jake tried a bunch of stuff to make more power. The fan was one thing. It added about 20 hp but there is a caution. It would be risky to run it on the street. It MIGHT be possible on the street wit Nickies but i doubt it. I would consider running 24 fins maybe. Any fan I would get balanced. It makes more sense for AX or the track.

He tried a larger exhaust and that didn't work. This engine wants velocity. There was actually fuel reverting out of the carbs above 5500. That was and amazing site. The choice of oil is important.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 28 2007, 09:01 PM

Jeff

The only dentistry I did was suggest Homer Simpson needs dentures. Maybe other people have seen the tattoo.New form of bith control.

Posted by: 904svo Sep 28 2007, 09:49 PM

Dave,

The $24 dollar question. are you going to use carbs or go back to the EFI system?

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 28 2007, 10:08 PM

Unfortunately he has decided to stay with "mega puke" but this time he'll use my individual runner set up, pump and regulator.

If mega puke has a repeat occurence for a sixth time after how well this engine has proven to be and all the time we have in it, I'll go ballistic.

Carbs have never left me with second degree burns on my hands, neither has SDS-

Posted by: craig downs Sep 29 2007, 01:12 AM

Man after all thats happened and going back to mega puke. I'm surprised you
guys didn't take it outback along with some shot guns and shot the hell out of it after
all the problems its caused.

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 29 2007, 06:41 AM

It's not a given that I will use megasquirt on my engine. I'm going home and I'm going to put it in the car and run it with the old engine. If I can achieve a tune that has AFR #'s like Jake had and plugs that look nice and lean, I'll probably run it. If I can't tune out the rich over run issue I'll send ECU back to Jake and he can use the Judge on it.

Dave

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 29 2007, 08:12 AM

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 29 2007, 08:49 AM

what are the individual runners refered to? what are you going to use for a throttle body(s)? sounds like you're breaking into your other stash of dwindling "tokens". i just can't see "tinkering" around with what seems to be perfection, just for an excersize. you're one stubborn guy dave. DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!.

K

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 29 2007, 09:07 AM

Sounds like a plan Dave..

Or why don't we leave the engine at Heaven for a while, you repair the ECU and then send it back for a dyno session again. You can conect to my dyno room computer and tune remotely.

We can put the engine on the new Dyno and take advantage of the faster pulls.you can also see my main screen on that dyno's computer to see the same things we do in the control room. I just have to finish the Pinz engine and the R/D dyno will be free for a while.

Posted by: jd74914 Sep 29 2007, 09:14 AM

What are you going to do about airflow Dave, it seems like this engine needs a lot more air than a 2.0 plenium and runners can provide?

Posted by: davep Sep 29 2007, 09:19 AM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 29 2007, 07:07 AM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 29 2007, 09:35 AM

The only "hitch" is Dave has to agree to allow me to use my weapon of choice to blow the Mega puke box to bits IF it causes our leakdown numbers to begin to elevate again!

Dave will be using or individual runner set up to feed the engine this time around.

I'd personally install SDS and be done with it. While Dave was at my shop I installed and from scratch tuned an experimental SDS system on a Pinzgauer engine with excellent results. It took 20 minutes to tune the RPM fuel values!

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 29 2007, 09:39 AM

dave's CFO with not be happy with the SDS path. without a doubt.

k

Posted by: gregrobbins Sep 29 2007, 09:48 AM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 29 2007, 08:35 AM)

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 29 2007, 09:53 AM

I have a 10ga Supergoose that would give it more air.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 29 2007, 10:28 AM

Perhaps the poll should include which weapon of individual destruction should be chosen from my arsenal to finish off the mega puke....

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 29 2007, 10:31 AM

I agree. What ya got?

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 29 2007, 10:42 AM

Just make sure there isn't enough left so some archeologist revives MegaSquirt Technology some day in the future. Perhaps Laws Rocket from 400 yards?

Posted by: rhodyguy Sep 29 2007, 11:19 AM

daisy cutter.

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 29 2007, 11:45 AM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Sep 29 2007, 10:19 AM)

Posted by: 9146986 Sep 29 2007, 01:32 PM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 29 2007, 07:35 AM)

Posted by: davep Sep 29 2007, 01:40 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Sep 29 2007, 07:39 AM)

Posted by: hcdmueller Sep 29 2007, 02:13 PM

If Dave is willing to mail the MSII to Germany I have access to some C-4 and other explosives that would make short work of it. It would make for a nice film.

I was considering megasquirt for my new 2056 but now I am not to sure. Good thing I have some weber 40's to start it up and break it in.

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Sep 29 2007, 03:28 PM

Jake, have you ever considered custom building a motor based on the “Lanchester Design” principle (see pics)? I understand that this would eliminate the rocking couple that conventional flat-four motors suffer from.



http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lanchesterdeignflatfouree2.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lanchesterdesignflatfouay7.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lanchesterdesignflatfounh5.jpg

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 29 2007, 05:12 PM

As short as our cranks are they are plenty stiff enough to handle the load couple that is placed on them. The fact that only one journal at a time is on the expansion stroke means that the opposing journal isn't pushing back as hard. I've seen that design and always figured it was a fix for a problem that early engines suffered with.

The bigger problem that horizontal 2 and 4 bangers (as well as inline engines) have is that every 180* all pistons come to a complete stop at the same time. This causes some real dynamic balance issues. It forces the crank to resist the urge to come to a standstill. (This is why counterweighted cranks are popular with engineers who are familiar with this problem). This is compounded by the fact that the rising pistons do not deaccelerate at the same rate as the descending pistons. Hi rod ratios can compound this as the difference in decel rates is greater. The descending pistons approach BDC at a higher rate than they approach TDC. This also creates strong crackcase pressure pulses as the descending pistons displace more crankcase volume/crank * than the rising pistons.
6 bangers are inherently smoother due to the fact that there are always piston in motion. In line 5 cylinder engines are smoother too.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 29 2007, 06:56 PM

When we start breaking cranks I'll worry about the things you guys are chatting about..

We have taken as much as 4 POUNDS off of a STOCK crankshaft, ran it without counterweights and spun that engine 8,000+ RPM for 3 seasons with no signs of excess case wear or crank damage.

That engine is competing at the SCCA Runoffs next week.making 100 HP/ cylinder still doesn't break the stock crank-

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Sep 29 2007, 08:20 PM

Just to clarify - it’s not about the strength of the crankshaft but about the engine’s primary and secondary balance. According to the information in the pictures the current flat-four is in complete primary balance (bottom paragraph of the first pic) but there is a rocking motion or couple induced because the pistons opposite one another have to be offset from each other so that they can each have their own crankpin. In the Lanchester design (middle picture in Fig. 5.6) the centers of mass of the two opposing pistons are in the same line so that their motion doesn’t tend to make the motor want to rotate around a line that runs vertically through the motor from top to bottom.

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 29 2007, 09:08 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Sep 29 2007, 08:39 AM)

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 29 2007, 09:14 PM

Jake, hold onto that a engine for a bit wiil you. I have to plead my case to the wife.

Thanks

Dave

Posted by: ottox914 Sep 29 2007, 11:13 PM

Find a way to go with the SDS. I did it, and love it. Easy to tune, has everything you need, and doesn't clutter you up w/all kinds of options and junk you don't need.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=53733&hl=

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 30 2007, 06:44 AM

100 HP per Cylinder??? GEEZ Jake give the rest of the field a chance will ya? 400 HP type IV.

Might you have meant 100HP per liter....

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 30 2007, 07:24 AM

I think we all must have goals, 100 per sounds good to me.

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 30 2007, 10:20 AM

QUOTE(Mid_Engine_914 @ Sep 29 2007, 07:20 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 30 2007, 10:21 AM

We'll be at 100 HP per cylinder by mid 2008 when the porkies heads meet boost on pump gas. The pump gas record here stands at 283 Hp currently with stock T4 head castings.

We have been at over 100 HP per liter for years. The record is 186 HP from 1500cc " all motor". Dave's engine is very close to 100/liter, on race gas with some added timing it easily would be.

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 30 2007, 12:50 PM

I love a good esoteric discussion from time to time, but the issues cited aren't issues for our applications. Early engines had very long strokes and long rods and in most cases iron pistons. Long cranks due to large bore spacing which meant plenty of crank deflection. Many had splash and prayer lube systems. This forced some creative ideas from the engineers of the day. Years ago I saw a blueprint for a very early radial aircraft engine that had a stationary crankshaft and rotating crankcase. Not sure what they were trying to accomplish, but I'm sure it was a response to some issue that early engine designers had to deal with.

BTW, hypoxic COPD patients usually have bizarre ABG's.

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Sep 30 2007, 12:56 PM

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Sep 30 2007, 08:20 AM)

Posted by: BiG bOgGs Sep 30 2007, 01:25 PM

Hijack

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 30 2007, 10:50 AM)

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 30 2007, 01:26 PM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 30 2007, 11:50 AM)

Posted by: ConeDodger Sep 30 2007, 01:29 PM

QUOTE(Mid_Engine_914 @ Sep 30 2007, 11:56 AM)

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Sep 30 2007, 08:20 AM)

Perhaps if you could bring up an example of how this is a problem in a recognizable real world engine. The engine in question has been a production engine in millions of cars with this design characteristic for years without regularly expressing the problems you cite.

Subaru now uses balance shafts to help smooth out their flat-fours. I just like the idea of a perfectly balanced motor and share Philip Smith’s enthusiasm for a flat-twin or flat-four that can accomplish this: “Lanchester produced an exercise in perfection in his early car engine.” I’m not sure why the design never caught on - maybe manufacturing costs.

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Sep 30 2007, 01:53 PM

This type of motor wouldn’t require a balance shaft. I would love to talk to a Subaru or old VW engineer to ask them why they didn’t make an engine like this that would be so well balanced. I bet that it would be related to the increased cost of manufacturing an engine that requires two more crankpins and connecting rods than a conventional flat-four.

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 30 2007, 03:47 PM

More wt., more components (and those components must also be balanced), and more chances for failure. As you said manufacturing cost would escalate, too. The pulses generated by a conventional engine are manageable and exist at a frequency that is difficult for the driver to detect. These factors and modern materials (modern being post-war), and compact designs are likely the reasons the simpler design took hold.

Posted by: davep Sep 30 2007, 04:21 PM

QUOTE(Mid_Engine_914 @ Sep 30 2007, 11:53 AM)

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Sep 30 2007, 05:06 PM

There are companies that offer custom http://www.chambon.com/pages_us/prototypes.htm so maybe one day I'll buy an old BMW flat-twin motor and play around with this idea.

Posted by: Jake Raby Sep 30 2007, 07:39 PM

Posted by: DNHunt Sep 30 2007, 09:13 PM

I just got home and found some time to reply.

First, thank you Jake. You were truely gracious even when things were going up in smoke. I know other people know you support your products but, this was above and beyond. People need to know that this is more than a business that sells engines, it is his life's work and each engine contains a bit of his soul.

That is apparent in the attention to detail, "white glove inspection", checking tolerances cold and hot, nutting the engine after dyno pulls, purging the oil system to the last drop for an oil change, using gas from the same station, and same pump etc, etc.

It's also apparent in the energy Jake puts into it. He ran me into the ground. He kept trying more changes to make more power when I was overwhelmed from the first pull.

It's apparent in the quality of the products he sells. I got to see what is in the Type IV store and some of it is art.

Charles, thank you sir. Ditto the comment on product support. I am in your debt and really have no way to thank you enough. When people say that the knock offs are just as good for less money they really don't understand that the product is better to begin with (no comparison) but the clencher is product support.

Thanks Len for your hard work and your support too. Again works of art.

As to the Megasquirt, everything Jake said is true. It tries to include too many platforms and it is too complicated. I wouldn't hesitate running it on a stock engine since there is not so much to loose. What I did not understand until I was at Jake's is his engines deserve the best period. And anything with as broad an application as Megasquirt has to be a compromise. I think Megasquirt is clever and it appeals to my desire to tinker but, I realize now it doesn't belong on an engine into which someone has poured their soul.

The driving year here in Washington is almost over and I have the car non op right now so, I'll save my money and get SDS along with ITB's and do the engine justice.

Dave

Posted by: 904svo Sep 30 2007, 09:29 PM

Dave

I for one think you made the right choice. Allow Jade to install the SDS system,since he still has your engine. Then you know it will run right!

Posted by: jaminM3 Sep 30 2007, 09:30 PM

I can't wait to hear about it when you finally get it in your car and drive it

Posted by: pete-stevers Sep 30 2007, 11:49 PM

cheers to both of you for sorting things out!!!!
dave i hope to go for a drive with you in spring

Posted by: gregrobbins Oct 1 2007, 12:30 AM

Dave, thank you for sharing your experiences from day one with us. I am thinking I was as thrilled to see the dyno results as you were. You and your motor have become like family. Gee that is going to be a kick in the pants when you take that first drive.

Congratulations!

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 1 2007, 06:13 AM

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 1 2007, 08:08 AM

Yep, time to eat some crow. Send my MS stuff back and I'll run it on the backup engine that's in the car now. We can firm up the details with email. I'm going need to know how big a bunch of flowers I'm going to need (second thought how big a shiny rock). Gawd this is going to be painful.

Dave

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 1 2007, 08:17 AM

Dave,
I don't want anyone here to *think* that I have bagged on MS for the purpose of selling components- so I will send you all the detailos on where you can buy the components you'll need directly. I will further email the guys at SDS and allow them to set your system up like mine, something they won't do otherwise.

I gave up on profiting anything from this nightmare long ago and I don't want anyone to have an excuse for my feelings against mega puke-

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 1 2007, 08:18 AM

dave and i discussed a consumer 'experience' prior to his departure jake. i think the line would form early and lengthen quickly. btw dave, driving season is NEVER over in washington unless a owner is rolling without a heat source, meaning mostly defrost capabilities.

k

Posted by: Bleyseng Oct 1 2007, 08:30 AM

Great thread Dave and Jake!

Kevin, It just gets harder to drive when the roads are wet.

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 1 2007, 09:25 AM

no it doesn't. my car drove just as easily, all weekend in the pouring rain, as it ever does and i didn't have to wipe the inside of the windshield or apply anti-fog. godbless ss heat exhangers and a well sealed ducting system. i'm glad i put the extra engine lid with the raintray on.

k

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 1 2007, 10:02 AM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Sep 30 2007, 10:50 AM)

Posted by: davep Oct 1 2007, 10:15 AM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 30 2007, 05:39 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 1 2007, 11:28 AM

Cool thread! Hope everything turns out OK with this one.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Oct 1 2007, 11:32 AM

QUOTE(DNHunt @ Oct 1 2007, 07:08 AM)

Posted by: nocones Oct 1 2007, 01:50 PM

Wow,
Thank you gentlemen for sharing this process with your write-ups and photos. Really educational to see what went into it and the end results.
While I have a lot of fun with my abomination 914/8, the lure of a well built 914/4 still lingers in my mind. Ever since spending a season autoxing a bug with a modest 1776.
Jake, thank you for pushing on with your developments. Someday I hope to be able to experience one of your motors for myself.
Dave, Congrats sir! On surviving your intensive at "Heaven" and on getting a motor that should make you very happy!

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Oct 1 2007, 03:22 PM

Here’s some more information about the shaking forces in a horizontally opposed twin motor for anyone who’s interested.


Rocking Couple explained

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakingforcesheislerpaglf7.jpg


Equation (10.57) for the shaking forces in a single cylinder motor

http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakingforceskinematicsms2.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakingforceskinematicsxc8.jpg


Graph of Equation 10.57 for a single cylinder motor with stroke and connecting rod length of a 2.0L Type IV motor running at 5000 rpm. (Horizontal axis represents the number of degrees of crankshaft rotation from tdc.)

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakingforcesinglecylinci7.jpg


Graph of the primary shaking force portion of Equation 10.57 for a single cylinder motor with stroke and connecting rod length of a 2.0L Type IV motor at 5000 rpm

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=primaryshakingforcedegrhs4.jpg


Graph of the secondary shaking force portion of Equation 10.57 for a single cylinder motor with stroke and connecting rod length of a 2.0L Type IV motor at 5000 rpm

http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=secondaryshakingforcedeio7.jpg

Shaking Forces and rocking couple of a horizontally-opposed twin

http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakingforceskinematicslo2.jpg

Lanchester Design solution to rocking couple

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakingforceskinematicsth2.jpg

Posted by: HAM Inc Oct 1 2007, 05:09 PM

Interesting stuff! I think the Lanchester design probably holds more usefullness for low speed engines with extremely high cylinder pressures, like commercial diesels in large ships or levy pumps, that sort of thing. For small, compact higher revving engines with relatively low cylinder pressures it would be overkill. The extra mass would hurt performance as well.

Keep in mind that not only do T1 and T4 engines have no crank issues when oiling is adequate and balance is right, we actually lighten the stock cranks and spin them over 8,000 with no issues. It's true that load couple causes harmonics, but at speed they are deminished by the high frequency and since cylinder pressures are relatively low on gas engines the harmonics are not difficult to deal with. Even on our high compression race engines with solid motor mounts it's not to terribly harsh.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 1 2007, 06:27 PM

I had a similar thing happen to me.
I had a guy build a 2.7L motor for me 7 years ago. I was very careful with it , changed the oil every 100 miles or so & only drove it in parking lots.

In September of this year it started running shitty. A leak down check showed a lot of air coming by the rings.....damn. I bitched to the builder and, after some hemmin' & hawin', he agreed to rebuild the thing labor free...parts only. Even after some serious whinnin' he wouldn't budge off parts deal....the sumbitch. I figure the parts are gonna run me 3K or so.....should I sue him fer the money?

I dona wanna get him nervous or the won't be able to "correctly manipulate the engine"...a fact I learned just recently. Should I wait till he's done to sue his ass?
BTW, the gawdamn motor has only been gettin' about 2mpg.....maybe it should be a no-class action suit.

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Oct 1 2007, 09:19 PM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 1 2007, 03:09 PM)

Posted by: kwales Oct 1 2007, 09:29 PM

You want shaking? Go for an inline 4.

That flat opposed four is smooooth in comparison.

Must be why Porsche paid $$$$ for the rights for the rotating counterbalance dshaft for the 944......

Worst case for the rocking couple would be a beetle where the engine cantilevers out the back and the tranny cantilevers out the front with a tiedown point at the front of the tranny

KenwonderingwhyanyonewouldwantaLanchesterengine

Posted by: Mid_Engine_914 Oct 1 2007, 10:42 PM

Lanchester must have really liked smooth running motors because he also invented the balance shaft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

Posted by: sunnyvale Oct 2 2007, 06:03 AM

Excuse my ignorance but what does the SDS system offer that MS can’t do?

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 2 2007, 07:59 AM

QUOTE(sunnyvale @ Oct 2 2007, 05:03 AM)

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 2 2007, 08:40 AM

Megasquirt is complicated because they are trying to make their system run every combination out there and that leads to compromises. Here is an example. Megasquirt allows you to run virtually any intake air sensor and it functions to reduce the amount of fuel injected as the density of the air decreases with increasing intake temperature. The idea is to keep it in the sweet spot as conditions change. As a compromise to allow any sensor you are asked to enter 3 pairs of resistance / temperature values. The system uses an equation to generate corrections the ECU will use. It was recognized that this wasn't completely accurate so they included a five point table where you could compensated for this inaccuracy which you have to tune. So the idea is plug figures in to get close then tune out the discrepancy.

I have a cousin that works for Delphi and he has worked writing code for some OEM fuel injection. When I told him about that situation, he rolled his eyes and said they have teams that work on nothing but lookup tables for their temperature sensors.

MS is just plain trying to paint too broad of a stroke.

It takes a lot of road time to get an approximate tune then dyno time to get closer and then you are still have questions about approximations.

I watched Jake kind of out of the corner of my eye tune a Pinzgauer engine with SDS. It is a strange beast and it was done in a flash.

Sometimes I need to be hit over the head with a 2X4 to get the picture. I've had plenty of hints that MS could be a problem but, I really enjoyed the tinkering (MS is a tinkerers delight) but, I'm getting tired and I want to drive my car not constantly tune or fix it. It's time for me to leave MS behind.

Dave

Posted by: rtalich Oct 2 2007, 09:53 AM

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Oct 2 2007, 06:59 AM)

QUOTE(sunnyvale @ Oct 2 2007, 05:03 AM)

Excuse my ignorance but what does the SDS system offer that MS can’t do?

Simplicity, no need for a laptop and more than anything it has a board assembled by robotic technology and a wire harnass that is super noce, made from OEM GM wire and connectors.

We have installed/tested and used for development over 150 SDS units in the past 4 years. Of those we have never had a single gripe concerning reliability and my phone doesn't ring with turnkey engine customers on the other end that have complaints related to SDS.

I don't think I need to say anything more about reliability when I tell you that over 3/4 of the SDS systems sold go into aircraft applications-

Simplicity is king, all those bells and whistles just make for a system that isn't tunable, constantly has gripes and requires more attention than a set of carbs- Been there, done that. I have used most every EFI system available at some point, but only SDS is standard equipment on my engines.

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 2 2007, 09:58 AM

Posted by: sunnyvale Oct 3 2007, 02:56 AM

Impressive setup Jake.

Just to confirm, you’re bashing Megasquirt because it is not simple enough? Admittedly the tuning software looks quite daunting but it’s only a case of getting used to it, how it works & what it does. It takes some time & effort to read your way through the manual & understand the theory behind it all and I realise you probably don’t have the time for this, it’s enough to put most off. I was going to say “neither the time nor inclination” and I’m thinking that is where the problem may be which would surprise me for a man of your stature.

I can see that where time is money you need a system you can tune quickly but for some of us that isn’t a problem. Having had a quick look at the SDS system I can’t see anywhere it betters MS, other than the simplicity issue. Reliability is down to the installation.

BTW the Microsquirt system addresses your other concerns about surface mount components & OEM wire and connectors. Being a system which is constantly being developed the best has yet to come.

Dave, a five point table is more than enough accuracy for a temp sensor and you don’t need a team of people to plot a thermistor curve.

I don’t make a habit of posting and expect this to go down like a lead balloon but feel for all the people who have had so much success from MS. Like all the best things in life, it doesn’t come easy.

'Arry

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 3 2007, 10:57 AM

Arry

Jake can voice his issues with MS but, I'll give you my perspective from the viewpoint of someone who's driven MS controlled vehicles which I tuned for well over 15,000 miles. I started with MS I version 2.2 board doing fuel only and then did MS Extra, MS II version 3 and MS II extra. So, I've seen the whole gamot.

First, I love MS. It's great fun and it really appeals to my tinkering self. I'll continue to run it on my stock type IV if it's ever in the car again (I really hope not). It definitely works and as you said the installation is everything and that is what caused all the trouble in Jake's dyno room. But, it isn't perfect and here are some examples.

You are correct that 5 points should be enough to plot a thermistor curve. In practice in my car that didn't work. And here is the test I ran. I made a gauge that showed the deviation from the desired AFR. If you search the MS site for a guy named Philip Lochner, you can find how to do this. I started the car and after all the warmup enrichment was played out I logged the engine running at idle. All enrichments were off so it was running as simple speed density with the only correction for air density as the intake temp went up (battery correction was off and it was open loop). If the thermistor table was correct, the deviation from the target AFR should have been very small. It wasn't In fact, that log was how I plotted the 5 point correction table which had corrections of upto 8% richer and 5% leaner.

Now in fairness, that problem may be arise from several sources. I can think of a couple.

First, is sh*t in sh*t out. The values used to generate the air density correction could be off. That is quite likely. If so it suggests that testing resistance at room temperature, in ice water and in boiling water is not an adequate way to determine these values even though that is recommended procedure. Maybe a team of people working in a lab isn't a bad idea. It may be overkill but, it probably will give a good result.

Second, maybe the conditions in the intake track don't remain constant. Also quite likely. The head ends of the intakes will heat soak and the air density at the intake port will be less than the calculated value derived from the values reported by the sensor in the plenum. Since our air cooled head heat rapidly compared to the air in the engine compartment I expected to see a rich area that I would correct by leaning the mixture with a negative correction in the 5 point able. The opposite happened. Yhat's probably the result of sh*t in sh*t out. Anyway, all the corrections after a while start to feel like there are too many holes in a dyke to plug and no matter what you do there is going to be a big flood.

Another thing to consider, MS has 12 X 12 fuel maps (16 X 16) in MS II extra. It does a linear interpolation between the vertices of this table. How likely do you think that the change in volumetric efficiency is linear. Many OEM systems use huge tables and no interpolation so they approximate this with very small steps. Ideally, a large table with interpolation would be best but, oh the calculations. The point I'm trying to make is I need a larger table and SDS gives that. I believe that from the outset the speed density calculation will be more accurate.

Dave

Posted by: eric914 Oct 3 2007, 11:19 AM

QUOTE(sunnyvale @ Oct 3 2007, 12:56 AM)

Posted by: rhodyguy Oct 3 2007, 07:02 PM

carbs rock!! check your pms dave.

k

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 4 2007, 07:48 AM

FI rocks!! Check you PM's K

Dave

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2007, 08:10 AM

Carbs are what I know so I'll stick with them for now.
Buddy with EFI Honda did more tinkering with his Hondata ECU TWM ITB's map sensors TPS Lap top programing . I used to joke with him about them electronic carbs being too complicated.

Rather look at Air temp Humidity and my Wide band gauge Change jets is a couple minutes and go have fun.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 4 2007, 08:11 AM

From watching builds on big T4's over the years it seems to me that you would want well dialed and maintained FI system as you have been trying to perfect. Carbs might be inexpensive route, but we all know how easily they go out of adjustment. With big T4's being so tempremental I think its good insurnace to run well mapped FI system. With FI at least you have some stability in mixture. Lets hope 5th time is a charm.

RonW on Jakes forum seems to be on the right path with FI too. That 2270 powered 912 is going to be cool to see once its completed - based on his posts this week looks like he will be up and running soon.

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 4 2007, 08:21 AM

Well tuned is the key. I suspect that is true wth any engine.

I hope RonW does just fine but, he's got a lot of learning he has to do in a hurry.

Dave

Posted by: LvSteveH Oct 4 2007, 08:34 AM

I would like to buy your M E G A S Q U I R T for sale. I will send you check for $6000 and you send me back $3000 ok? Please keep extra for your trouble. M E G A S Q U I R T very desirable in my country so I happy pay yours top dollar.

I will have my agent arrange shipping after all money finished so you no worry. Please let me know for I need M E G A S Q U I R T most urgent to get T-72 TANK drive again. Insurgents took keys, and locksmith missing. Maybe you come install? You say M E G A S Q U I R T too rich for you, we very rich no worry, just need TANK and pay you much for get running.

You know someone get Pinzgauer running very extra fast? Next week drag race for pinks and family honor depend on victory. Much thanks.

Posted by: Ferg Oct 4 2007, 08:47 AM

QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Oct 4 2007, 06:34 AM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 4 2007, 01:16 PM

All I care about is effectiveness in a system- to date MS hasn't met my standards for effectiveness and has undoubtedly cost myself and LN Engineering time, money and business due to Dave's hardships that have proven to be directly related to MS.

MS is experimental, my development has been aimed to remove guesswork for the individual to KNOW exactly what they are getting, assemble and tune it without worry.

Outfitting an engine/kit with one of these experimental systems goes against everything I have worked to remove with my entire engine program.

I am all for experimentation in my lab and in my cars as everything I own is some form of "project X". I don't sell things until the experimentaal stages are over and they have proven themselves.

As for bashing MS:
Put tourself in my shoes, spend time and money for 3+ years and fight with the embarassment of being "ineffective" in front of thousands of people and then top that off with a week of assisting your customer and sustaining 2nd degree burns on your hands.Damn right, I'll continue to bash.

I'll never again sell an engine kit to anyone that has plans of MS for fuel delivery- I don't have time to waste proven components with an experimental fuel delivery system.

When something I create or sell isn't effective no one is tolerant of an excuse or explanation- due to this things have to work right out of the box flawlessly.

Posted by: Rick_Eberle Oct 7 2007, 04:15 AM

Can I ask a silly question?

Why don't you just change the decel settings in MS?

Posted by: Jake Raby Oct 7 2007, 03:16 PM

Because Dave has a damn near 200 HP proven engine that has less than 5% leakdown and passed every one of my post dyno tests on the first try.

We have removed the only constant that has remained since day one with Dave's engine since day one.

Only fools make the same mistake twice, I don't know what you'd call the person that makes the same mistake 6 times, especially with the insane results we have noted with Dave's current engine combination.

Posted by: gjones Jan 20 2008, 10:56 AM

QUOTE(DNHunt @ Sep 27 2007, 07:05 PM)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 20 2008, 11:12 AM

The head gaskets should not be used.. VW released a bulletin stating this in 1981.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 20 2008, 11:01 PM

I love when you guys talk about injection. Cool stuff, and way over my head. I get a little more of the puzzle everytime. MS would make me crazy. Are you saying SDS is plug and almost play?

Posted by: McMark Jan 21 2008, 05:24 PM

Rick, both/either need to be tuned. My understanding of what Jake & Dave are saying is that the MS software might not be dialed in quite enough. Differences between how much fuel the computer says it's giving and how much fuel it's actually giving.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 21 2008, 11:12 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jan 21 2008, 03:24 PM)

Posted by: Rand Jan 22 2008, 01:05 AM

Hey Rick, check out post 27 of this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=79991