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Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 17 2007, 08:35 PM

Just rolled into the driveway from a 70 mile trip back from McMark's Original Customs Shop in Napa... Wow. I left Mark's shop at about 4:30pm so I knew I was going to get some traffic. But magically, it was sporadic and I just cruised. This motor just never ceases to amaze me. 5th gear passes are no problem. The power is everywhere. Not peaky at all. just pulls from the bottom to the top. I love this motor!!!

I think my motor is a similar combo to Dave Hunt. He has Nickies which are actually good for a little power in addition to better cooling.

I will be working out some details over the winter which will be small stuff at best. Possibly an external oil cooler. Though, I have to tell you guys this again, this motor runs cooler than my stock 2.0 liter.

I strongly recommend the 2270 Raby kit. Build it yourself or have Mark do it. He has a couple of them under his belt now. This is the motor VW-Porsche should have used.

Posted by: craig downs Dec 17 2007, 08:43 PM

Your getting me to excited . I can hardly wait to experience mine. Engine is done
but the car is a ways off.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 17 2007, 08:48 PM

Craig, Did you test fire it and run in the cam? Unless you are happy with the sound coming from behind you, get a more powerful amp for the stereo!!!

Posted by: craig downs Dec 17 2007, 09:09 PM

Haven't started it yet. I actually have it setting in the office at my house as I figured
it would better than in the garage collecting dust. Pretty noisy huh?

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 17 2007, 09:15 PM

Rob, I can only imagine, considering how nicely my new 2056 with stock D-jet runs and pulls.
Was at Laguna a week ago and put the hurt on a '65 911 sporting a Jerry Woods 2.0L 6 putting 170HP to the ground. I am sure it hurt him mightily to give me the passing signal between 4 &5 and then later in the day going up the main straight.
you can just make him out behind me in this pic.


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Posted by: ppickerell Dec 17 2007, 09:29 PM

Damn you thoroughly for this post!

Posted by: 1bad914 Dec 17 2007, 09:39 PM

You suck!

Posted by: toon1 Dec 17 2007, 10:31 PM

don't rub it in

What! no pics??

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 17 2007, 11:07 PM

Ok...

Oh! Did you mean car pictures???


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Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 17 2007, 11:11 PM

Posing for the camera...


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Posted by: Gint Dec 17 2007, 11:19 PM

I'd have to say I agree with that too. You suck! I want to drive a 2270.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 17 2007, 11:42 PM

Dan,
I think between the handling of the 914 and your skillzzz you might have had an advantage over the 911. Nice pic though. Makes me want to get out there on the track even more...

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 17 2007, 11:42 PM

This is how they should have come from their momma!!!

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 18 2007, 12:17 AM

just for information purposes.
the '65 911 is a purpose built track car. Full cage, gutted interior, 6" Fuchs with 205 Hoosiers, CF race seats, full track suspension and the aforementioned 170HP JWE motor. the car is probably weighs no more or even less than my 914
It was built to run the Carrera de Panamerica

Posted by: LarryR Dec 18 2007, 12:38 AM

SWB 911 handling sucks compared to a 914.

That 2270 sounds sweet too! When Chris took it for a test run it sounded really nice. It even has me thinking to build one for season 1-2 for my track car. I figure until my driving skills get better I could cheat a little on dispacement b/c I will still loose

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 18 2007, 12:40 AM

handling on a well setup SWB 911 is not so bad....look at all the guys doing vintage racing with that exact setup....they do pretty well.

on the actual subject of this thread....if a 914 can do that well with a mild 2056, then a comparable 914 with a 2270 would be fantastic on the track...
It will also be a formidable AX weapon...would love to have that kind of power in my Puttputt.
Lite weight of the type 4, equivilent HP to a small 6 and more torque...whoooppeeeee
I'll be looking forward to running against Rob in an AX this coming season

Posted by: LarryR Dec 18 2007, 12:46 AM

I sold my 67 last year and took in trade the 914 track car project. Mine was set up by Patrick motorsports but was still pretty darn tail happy. I loved the looks of that car. I even sold it with first right of refusal if the new owner decides to sell it. In fact I like the look of the car so much that I am the 3rd and 5th owner of the car already. But the 914 is by far a superior handling car. Maybe not a race winner in my hands though but I have watched 914's beat far superior HP 911's on the track and not just early swb cars.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 18 2007, 12:51 AM

this past weekend I disposed of a 71S, a 996, a 993, a GT3 and other various cars...all with my 2056.
yes a couple of those are not being driven to their potential, but I still got around them regardless.
the 71S is a dedicated track car on stickies and I put him away. also put away an SC on stickies and track setup.
I can outbrake and get thru most corners faster than most of the above cars, and initial grunt off the corners is not bad. With a 2270 my car would be fantastic.
Maybe I should be building a 2270 on my GA case instead of selling it to you Rob.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Dec 18 2007, 12:57 AM

All I can say is - THAT WAS FUN!
Thanks again for the test drive.
If the 914 came from the factory in 1972 with a 2.3 TIV, it could have changed the history of the 911 So much TORQUE compared to my 1.7, but a little louder than I thought it would be, even with the engine sound pad in. I hope to drive it again sometime, or maybe my own in the future

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 18 2007, 06:07 AM

Well, well, well....

How a couple of years can change things... A couple of years ago anyone starting a thread like this would be been blasted to Mars and told that those results were impossible or "That guy in Georgia isn't doing anything special to these engines". I fought with those bastards, fought with the engine and got the results we were looking for, and yes it is special and no, you can't parallel it without a kit!

Like my Dad always says "Nothing ever stays the same".

We have worked hard to develop the 2270 and 2316 combos for more power and less cost, the 2008 kits, when released in a few days will be proof of this. The biggest change with the 08 kits is the fact that we won't be selling them to anyone having them assembled bu a shop other than MarkD (on the west coast) and DTM Engineering (on the east coast) since the reconfigurations we have done to make the engine kits easier to assemble. With my "Extensive prep" service we mock up the entire engine, measure deck, crunch the CR and even do valve train geometry for you! Its a heck of a deal at 650 bucks extra! With this uyou womn't need a single special tool.. Heck, I am shooting the assembly video now and will be purchasing a 120 piece craftsman tool set to use in the video to prove thats all is needed to put the entire engine together aside from whats included in the kit when the "extensive prep" service is added.

Rob, your kit varys greatly from Dave Hunt's, especially in the camshaft department.. You have the same heads and basic parts, but the cam is not even close to being the same..

We are still trying to find the reason why Dave's engine made so much more power than it was supposed to.

The key behind the success of my engine development program has been focusing on very broad, very usable power across the entire RPM range and sacrificing "peak" power figures for a higher average power. Extending the torque curve into a "torque plateau" has been the goal.

Below is the power output from last week's test of the LEAST PERFORMING member of the 2270 family for 2008. Two years ago this combo would not have broken 140HP, and it would have taken another whole point of CR and 5 degrees more duration to even get that much power from it! remember, this is a DAILY DRIVER combo, designed for drivability and longevity, it doesn't have or need dual valve springs!


When is the last time you saw flat torque between 3-5,500 RPM???

Nope, we aren't doing anything special at all... Some jack asses still think that!

Posted by: type11969 Dec 18 2007, 06:50 AM

Thats rad Jake, keep up the good work!

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 18 2007, 07:17 AM

Thanks....

We'll be applying a couple of years worth of developments in 2008-2009 and going on to the Boxster and 997 for the next development platform..

We'll see if we can't "un bastardize" the Boxster engine like the TIV :-)

Posted by: type11969 Dec 18 2007, 07:39 AM

wah wah wah wahter cooled? Really? When you make it big with that wine and cheese crowd, don't forget about us a/c guys!

Posted by: Gint Dec 18 2007, 07:48 AM

I've been hearing you rant about radiators for years. Boxsters Gracey? Water cooled motors? Radiators?!?!?!

Posted by: toon1 Dec 18 2007, 08:38 AM

YEA, YEA, YEA, we know your wifes hot!

you suck about that too

Posted by: DNHunt Dec 18 2007, 08:47 AM

I'm getting so exited to get my engine home. I've done a bunch of work, the engine bay is all cleaned up and the car should be stiffer to handle the extra torque.

This is the engine that should have come in the car. When Motor Trend made it the car of the year in 1970, they would have had to back it up with another one in 73 if this engine was in the car. It would have been the kickass car of the era.

Dave

Posted by: Joe Ricard Dec 18 2007, 10:15 AM

And none of us cheap bastards could afford them now because they would hold past super car status.

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 18 2007, 10:23 AM

Yep, I still hate them more than ever...
In business we have to do things that we don't like to remain successful.

Thats the ONLY reason I am doing this development. It'll provide even more capital for aircooled expansion and further exploration.

I spend more on development than most people take home every year and with today's economy that can't keep up unless we venture into enexplored territory.

We are busier with TIV stuff than ever, but it's time to work with something that can take up two more decades ahead.. Nothing with TIVs will slow down, we'll just be applying what we have learned in the past two years to the program in a "non experimental" fashion.

Yep, I still hate radiators as much as ever, give me a few weeks and I'll probably hate them even more. I boight a 98 Boxster for a test car, but I'd rather drive the Bus, Pinz or 912...

Posted by: JmuRiz Dec 18 2007, 12:29 PM

I really hate these posts, makes me want to spend all my money on an engine, haha. I'm sure it would be a night/day difference having that much TQ over such a large RPM range. I can't even imagine what that'd be like.

Keep up the good work Jake.
Shame about going into newer motors, haha...if you want a challenge (and I was made of money) I'd have you take a look at my 1974 2.8 Mercedes in-line 6!

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 18 2007, 01:06 PM

Dan,
I guess I have to let you drive it huh... I need a track mentor because I haven't been on the track in years and when I did it was with a 240Z.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 18 2007, 01:16 PM

Chris,

I think the loud factor is actually my fault and has nothing to do with the motor. McMark pointed out that I have only half of the sheetmetal screws in the Tangerine heat box. So part of what you are hearing is a vibration. Another thing is I have something called the Dellorto Whistle. The Dells have a hole down in the bottom that sucks in air under load so as I accelerate I get a whistle. I guess there is a gasket that eliminates it. Jake has a set he is going to send me. I guess he is buried in inventory right now. The last and most important thing I did to make this engine louder than you like is I used the JWest nylon motor mount. Don't get me wrong. They are a good product. Whenever you modify something you should start with a vision of what you want to end up with, consider the consequenses of your plans, and dial it up or down. I thought the nylon would be quieter than the aluminum James offers. I would bet I am right. But, the nylon is too harsh for my taste. They will come out for new stockers and I think you will find the engine sound level very acceptable. Even for an environmental dude like yourself...

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 18 2007, 01:20 PM

For all you guys that said "but for the money..." This is the single most important thing that has made me love the car. I bought it because I was tired of losing to the occasional 914 that showed up at the autocross in my 240Z. Now, I can't imagine not owning this 914. It is a far better car now than when it rolled off the factory floor.

Posted by: toon1 Dec 18 2007, 01:45 PM

Just courious,

What's the fuel mileage?

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Dec 18 2007, 02:14 PM

I object to the noise because it intereferes with my cruisin tunes.
My 914 has 3-4 coats of Quietcar on the back of the backpad, outside of fan tin, and I wrapped my headers (for cooling, but helps a little with noise).
I wouldn't change a thing on your car - maybe the mounts and maybe get a custom set of 2 7"-7.5" wide 2.0 Fuchs for the rear tires! 5.5s in front 7s in back on 205s all around would be cool.

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 18 2007, 04:03 PM

When I did this cross country trip
www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry

I averaged 23.5 MPG @ an average speed of 76 MPH coast to coast...

Most get 25-26, some have gotten 30.... Its dependant upon gearing, tune and vehicle aero..

Efficiency breeds MPG. Power doesn't mean a reduction in MPG!

Rob, I mailed those gaskets to you weeks ago-

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 18 2007, 05:48 PM

I agree... I haven't been worried about mileage as of yet. New engines aren't typically mileage machines anyway. I left Napa with 1/4 tank of gas. I got home with 1/8th of a tank showing. That is about 70 miles.
Pretty sure my engine is very similar to the development on the cross country trip engine.
Let me check Jake, It could be that it came and Yopu threw it on my workbench in the garage. I wouldn't have noticed it there as I would have expected it in the mail box.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 18 2007, 05:51 PM

Yopu says she "wishes!" but thank you... Off the record though, I agree. She is hot.

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 18 2007, 10:09 PM

Let me know if you find the gaskets....

Also, what CHT have you been seeing??

Posted by: toon1 Dec 18 2007, 11:43 PM

Spoken like a good husband

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 19 2007, 01:30 AM

Husband hell!!! She IS hot. But watch out for the evil twin sister...

Posted by: Cevan Dec 19 2007, 02:12 PM

Of the engine that is.

Posted by: Trevorg7 Dec 20 2007, 12:32 AM

What exhaust are you running?

T

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 20 2007, 12:35 AM

Trevor, I believe he is running a CFR Tangerine header system

Posted by: atomix8 Dec 20 2007, 08:23 AM

What hole do these gasket's plug on dells? I have a part throttle (I assumed progression port) whistle/squeal too on my dells, but I half thought it was a noisy alternator belt that I couldn't find a good tension on. Goes away at full throttle, which I've always used as an excuse to go faster.

Can you point out on the attached dellorto pic where this gasket goes?

Come to think of it...I'm pretty sure my vacuum ports aren't plugged...

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 20 2007, 10:43 AM

Dan is right, I am running Tangerine Header with heat...

I didn't discover the problem with the Dellorto Whistle until I had the engine installed. So I am not sure which holes we are talking about quite yet. I don't want to disable the car by pulling up the carbs before I have the gaskets.

It sounds like birds chirping when you are under load. It goes away once you are launched or have eased off the throttle a bit.

I would love to have that book. I have seen the Tomlinson book on Webers but not Dells. Where did you get it?

Posted by: Jerry Dec 20 2007, 11:13 AM

I have Dells on my 2056 and they have the chirp also!!! A little annoying....but I am just glad it is running goood!!! I would like to know more on how to get rid of the whistle also...... could we get more info???? Exactly what do we look for and replace ... or whatever we need to do????? Thanks

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 20 2007, 11:25 AM

Jerry,
As I said, I have not looked at the bottom of the carbs but I am told that there is an opening on the bottom that needs to be either covered by that gasket, or epoxied closed. I spoke to CB performance and I was told that the epoxy wouldn't harm the carb if it broke up and came loose. Maybe Jake will chime in. The gasket is no longer available...

Perhaps the guy with the book could take a scan of the bottom of the carbs from the book and show it here. We can do a how-to...

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 20 2007, 11:41 AM

Dells were OEm carbs for Fiats.. In the Fiat carb there is an extra exposed port at the carb flange. When this is esposed air moves through it at a very high speed, high enough to chirp...

The carbs that were imported by CB Performance were made for a VW and lacked this port and the chirp.. The gaskets that were made to stop the whilstle simply have a tang that covers the port...

Posted by: McMark Dec 20 2007, 01:33 PM

Found these that might help:

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=541

Here's a random picture from TheSamba where the port someone filled with RTV. THIS IS NOT MY REPAIR


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Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 21 2007, 11:11 AM

This RTV fix looks a bit sloppy...

Any pics of the bottoms without the fix so we can see what needs to be epoxied?

CB Performance tells me the gaskets are NLA and they don't expect more production.

Mark, lets do a guage install day soon. Jake is looking for CHT#'s I cannot give him.

Posted by: rhodyguy Dec 21 2007, 11:23 AM

that rtv looks like shit. rob, didn't ACE do your carbs? i'm surprized art hasn't developed a fix for the port.

k

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 21 2007, 11:27 AM

Kevin,
I think that is a random pic Mark pulled from the net somewhere. He is a total search guru. Yes Art did my carbs but never said a word about the whistle. I described it on a thread and Jake told me what it was. I am told that the traditional fix is just epoxy or the gasket if you can find it...

Anyway, I am off to work. No rain so teener day today

Posted by: McMark Dec 21 2007, 01:05 PM

Yup, pulled that pic off TheSamba.

Posted by: atomix8 Dec 21 2007, 02:05 PM

Hmm, now you've got me convinced I need to rip my otherwise decently function Dells off to fix this whistle/squeal.

As to the availability of the superformance book, I think CB Performance still sells them. They're not rare as far as I know! I'm away on X-mas vacation right now, but I can check if there is further detail about the "bottoms" of the carbs.

Not sure of the providence of my carbs, they have a CB kit on them, but the carbs themselves could have come from anywhere. The PO said they were the second set of Dells on the car, and they look damn near new.

Other possible fix for the squeal/whistle...louder exhaust...

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 22 2007, 11:40 AM

Engine pic... Hmmm... Why is it tiny? Maybe Mark can fix it?


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Posted by: Gint Dec 22 2007, 11:44 AM

Because it's a tiny pic...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-3380-1198345209.jpg
125px × 84px
20 KB (20484 bytes)

Posted by: McMark Dec 22 2007, 11:52 AM

Like black much?



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Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 22 2007, 11:57 AM

What... Rob; you still have money left?

Didn't you get married recently?

Ssuupp with that?

Posted by: type11969 Dec 22 2007, 12:16 PM

Can you tap the port and put a plug into it?

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 22 2007, 12:30 PM

Very funny Burger-Boy! What color should I have gone with? Aubergine?
By the way, I want that stuff. You know, the stuff...

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 22 2007, 12:34 PM

It is a square hole so you would have to drill it first. Not sure it would be possible. I have been told by more than one respected carb person that you can just epoxy it shut. The RTV repair that Mark found on Samba is just stupid. Perhaps the next step was to trim the expanded RTV with a razor blade?

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 22 2007, 12:42 PM

E,

You should have told me! I just watched my last dime circle the drain and disappear!

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 23 2007, 05:02 PM

Just got back from a drive with Nicho. He says I hit 130 on the speedometer at the end of the entrance ramp onto West bound 50 from Folsom Blvd. This is a long sweeper that ends in its own lane. No traffic to speak of so I thought I would find out what 7K RPM sounds and feels like...

Anyone got a cigarette? Just kidding I don't smoke

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 24 2007, 09:47 AM

130... You still had some gear left before you ran out of RPM more than likely... At just over that the Aero wall really starts to effect the 914.

Glad to see that you are actually using what I cooked up for ya, so many people never do..

Posted by: Sleepin Dec 24 2007, 10:58 AM

Sweet! I would love to have one! I am truly impressed with Raby's research and development! ....just wish I could afford one!

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 24 2007, 11:43 AM

Jake,
Given that I was on public roads I was being conservative. It truly felt like there was a lot more on tap but I was reaching the end of the ramp and there was traffic just ahead that I would have closed on. You never know what the traffic will do on public roads. I like the discipline on the race track better.
I was in 4th gear and Nicho says I was actually closer to 6K when I shut down.
I agree, aero wall will stop acceleration before the motor runs out of power.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 24 2007, 11:44 AM

With all of that wide open space just outside of GJ it would be the best money you ever spent on the 914!

Posted by: porschecb Dec 24 2007, 11:58 AM

Wow!!!! 130 mph on a public road with a kid onboard? I think thats called child endangerment! Stay safe out there. By the way will six grand make my 1.8 go away?

Michael

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 24 2007, 12:02 PM

Michael,
I think Wanda would be on to you in a heartbeat! But yes, 6 Grand for long enough would shake the bolts loose...

Posted by: Sleepin Dec 24 2007, 12:09 PM

I will start saving now!

Posted by: jwhcars Dec 24 2007, 01:22 PM

I keep reading all about the Raby engine and I sure wish that there was one up here in Pa.I really would like to be able to keep up with the 911 going up the small mountains we have here in Pa.(I have to let my wife go first up the hills in the 911)
I was told by one of the local guys for $5000 I can get you to between 140hp to 145hp.
Hmmm I must do more due diligence on this ...I need more power.
I need to see about building one myself....I think I can , I think I can do it.

Posted by: scotty b Dec 24 2007, 01:31 PM

Devcon. lightly sand or file the "hole" to get some scratches, fill with Devcon and put a pice of aluminum tape over the open sides to smooth it out.Once hardend it could be be sanded or filed down smoother.

Posted by: Eric Taylor Dec 24 2007, 01:49 PM

man this is really making me think about just keeping my car a FOUR. the SIX has the allure, but dam this sounds good.

How do you like it compared to the BEE?

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 24 2007, 01:49 PM

The kit will get you more power than that. Plus many of the engines out there that put more HP into the Type IV actually are so poorly designed that they are undriveable. Too peaky, run too hot, self-destruct in no time. I am not saying that Mr. Raby is the only Type IV engine builder/designer on earth but his testing is right out here in front of God and everybody. If he messes up, his pants will be down around his ankles right in front of all of us...
I worked in a Porsche shop as an undergrad and the owner used to build "disposible" motors for his ice race 914. All you have to do to make more power is BIG cylinders and pistons with BIG compression and a peaky cam. It will not last. But it will make bigger numbers on a dyno. Problem is you don't drive on a dyno. Last I checked the real world was outside. This engine was designed for the real world. You will not grow to hate this motor. That is more important than many people realize.

There are really only two complicated processes involved. One is the Deck Height Measurements, the other is Valve Train Geometry. Both have technical articals posted by Jake on his site. I had a Mark with me so this was infinately less painful for me than others. For one thing, he had the tools. For another, he has done this many times with his $5000 dollar motors.

I said this before but it bears repeating, this is the motor that VW-Porsche should have used. This is such a fun car now. I cannot wait for next autocross season. Even Trekkor thinks I should take it to the track.

Depending on what 911 we are talking about and just how open the road is, your wife may see nothing but taillights if you built this motor...

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 24 2007, 01:51 PM

Have you noticed the BEE is for sale???

Posted by: jwhcars Dec 24 2007, 03:13 PM

I have been reading his web page and I think the 2270 is the way to go.
The teener is one of my for fun only cars-fun runs and autocross.
I will have to see how much trouble I will be in with my current garage if I go with Jake.
It would be nice to be able to climb a relatively straight 800 foot hill and not feel like the engine in third gear is maxed out at red line and I am only doing 45-50mph.
I am so much closer to pulling the trigger.......thanks

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 24 2007, 09:39 PM

With my "Extensive prep service" option for the 2008 kits the deck height, end play AND valve train geometry processes are removed from assembly!

We set this up for you during our portion of the kit, allowing the assembler to build the engine without ANY special tools or procedures. Just bolt it together.

My kit program and the service and suppiort we offer is designed for the first timer, I have reconfigured the program for 2008 with time lines, more documentation and I have transformed my basement into a video studio to tape the support video over the next 3 months. With this video I'll walk you through EVERY step of the procedure.......

My development always has and always will use the lab for comparison and initial development, but I then hone the combination in the car with full data acquisition.

I hope to have 90% of our engines leaving in kit form in 2008 and beyond, freeing up the shop for Boxster development and a select few MassIVe Turn Keys that we want to take on. Type 4 development will continue, ut mostly in the form of practical application since I have spent 30 months designing components that all need to be tested and then brought to market..

BTW- no local shop can create what we can for you, I don't care what they say. The reason for this is dsimple, each time they build an engine for a customer its experimental, they don't have the opportuinity to create, hone and apply developments every day like we do, because they generally work on a variety of cars, not one specific engine. There is certainly no way they can realisitcally create 150HP turn key for 5K and expect it to be anything less than a cornucopia of components.

The new kit program will change the face of MassIVe engines for the 3rd time in the past 5 years, every time we make it better, easier and remove the guesswork. Results like Robs are typical when people follow the directives word for word and don't cut corners.

Posted by: Sleepin Dec 25 2007, 12:40 AM

That is an excellent post Rob! Often people look for a dyno queen engine! (peak hp sucks if you only get it on the last 200 rpm you got!)
I am now more seriously considering this option to my feebly powered 1.8L. After reading Jake's posts and website info, it seems like he is the type of straight shooter one would want to deal with as an engine builder. Working and devoloping one specific engine platform...and definetly showing pride in it is never a bad thing! I would like to hear some high mileage testimonials (not that I doubt the reliability, but it is always nice to hear!).

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 25 2007, 11:29 AM

Eric,
The first engine I ever built was a Type 1 VW for a car that was a daily driver while I was in college. I dropped a valve while photographing an ice race in Manitoba Canada and had to be tow barred back to Minnesota. It was a stock rebuild because I had no time to start thinking "as long as I am in there..." It turned out fine. The next engine was for my Toyota pickup. I had put 200K miles on it and it was tired. I was seduced by the higher compression pistons and the aftermarket cam, and headers. The truck was impossible to tune, the headers leaked. I think I struggled with it for a few months before parking it. Someone came along and offered me a trade for a motorcycle I recall... The lesson here is that unless the engine is designed as a system it is unlikely to work as a system.

Jake does a bit of his own high mileage testimonial and testing. If you snoop around a bit, you will find that he builds an engine and runs it for 25K miles or so without an oil change or purposely tries to blow it up... Things you probably wouldn't do just to see that it will last. I expect that this engine will have great longevity as it runs noticeably cooler than the stock 2.0 liter.

The kit is nice but really, what I was paying for was the testing that went into that combo. Jake knew exactly how that motor would act because he had built many or them. My particular combo is the same as an engine he built and put into a tired old Type 1 he called the Bluebonic Plague then drove from Georgia to California to an event called Bugorama. This event is held twice a year only 5 miles or so from my house. After driving across country fully data logging from the back seat he put in a couple drag race runs in the very respectable range and someone just bought the motor right out of the car! He had the car flat towed to Georgia and flew back if I recall correctly... The whole adventure was chronicalled on the internet. I think he even got out of a speeding ticket because the highway patrolman was a VW guy. The kit was so complete I remember emailing Jake to ask where the 6 pack was... Everything else I needed was in there!

If Jake moves ahead with the kit program as he has described, all you would need is basic hand tools and a torque wrench to do this kit. The old video is good but had it's weeknesses especially as it concerned the two complex processes. If Jake makes a new one, it would be likely to specifically address the kit build. The other was part of a series called "Bug me".

There is some level of personal responsibility involved. Let's face it. You are stepping outside your comfort zone when you build a motor. If you don't follow the directions as they are given, if you try to cut a corner or two, your result may not be what you wanted. At that point you really can only complain to the engine builder. That would of course be you...

If this had been the engine VW-Porsche put in the car in the first place you would be able to buy a 2008 914. Probably watercooled but you get my point.

Posted by: DNHunt Dec 26 2007, 08:17 AM

Time for me to interject a couple of things.

First happy holidays everyone. I hope everyone and their families are well.

I do not believe you can go wrong buying one of Jakes kits. He is a stickler for detail and he has surrounded himself with good people. Brent I think could make anything work and has built enough engines he can feel what is right. I'd torque something and if he checked it he would say "that feels right". If you ever get to talk with Brent he will tell you a bunch of ways you can do something and hint at what is the right way. Blake has a wealth of knowledge more whole car. Trannies, suspension, brakes. Great fun to talk to. And Rebecca is well just plain nice. She was the finder and knew where stuff was. I didn't get to meet Len but, I talked to him and he's a stand up guy. For anyone that gets Nickies, Charles is beyond a doubt the most patient man around. He is focused on providing the best product around flatout.

Your kit will be the very best anyone can put together. The components are proven. They will fit together and more importantly work together. Beyond that, you will be buying the support of some great people and I don't know of any other place that offers that.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 26 2007, 12:49 PM

Thanks Dave for that interjection... Dave was one of my inspirations for going ahead with the kit purchase. I met Dave and his son Gerry at that Bugorama event I met Jake at... I was glued to that 2270. Dave's car is even the same color as mine...

I fixed the Whistle. I found the gaskets in my project drawer of the tool box. Yopu knows to put things that look 914ish in there. Although I still don't know where they came from. I ordered them from CB Performance but they thought they didn't have any. I will assume it was from Jake! Thanks Jake!

The gaskets are thicker. Perhaps a bit of insulative quality? Anyway, no more whistle! It made the motor mount generated noise much more obvious and annoying though. That is next. Although I will be busy for the next few days.

I took another 130mph burst and confirmed what Nicho said. I left him home this time with his new PSP to make you cybernannies happy.
Yup! 130 with grunt to spare!!!


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Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 26 2007, 09:17 PM

Excellent...

Keep driving the hell out of it, the harder you beat it, the better it'll run!

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 26 2007, 11:43 PM

Can't wait to beat it like this...


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Posted by: grantsfo Dec 27 2007, 12:31 AM

Glad everything has worked out for you Rob. Do you have a suspension under the car? Have you done anything to the tranny? LSD?

...and dont let this car beat you at AX events with that big new motor


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Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 27 2007, 09:54 AM

What Rob needs is tires... Wide assed tires and big fat flares!!

Many of my customners have installed a 2270 into a 914 and have went SLOWER at AX than with a stock engine due to lack of traction and all that torque that simply roasts the tires..

Broken trannys are a byproduct of added power and enough traction to use it.. I busted 2nd gear in my old 914 3 times.... I had less power than Rob, from an older version of the 2316 Annihilator....

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 27 2007, 10:03 AM

Had not thought about effects of all that additional torque on the poor little 901. Maybe a Massive tranny is in the works?

Posted by: davep Dec 27 2007, 10:09 AM

Not quite the same thing, but I put a 914 2.0 into my VW 411 after the 1.7 dropped a valve. My wife used it as a DD. The car was a real sleeper with the 2.0. However, I would drive it occasionally and find it a tad slow until I drove the hell out of it for half an hour. It was like an instant tune-up. Unfortunately the pressure plate diaphragm was not up to the task and fractured despite having only several thousand miles on it.

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 27 2007, 10:34 AM

Blake is my tranny expert.. He and I have been working out details on a super duty 901 arrangement for the past year or so...

We'll be offering trannys at the beginning of 08 with several stages of modification and can engineer a tranny to work along with an engine kit or turnkey.

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 27 2007, 10:38 AM

No time to chat right now but I will add this.

Transaxle is a newly rebuilt 901 with billet I plate and GT TB unit.... Should be good...

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 27 2007, 10:47 AM

It might stand a chance in competition..

Many guys run bone stock trannys with the 2270-175 combo but a trip to an AX will generally compromise them..

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 27 2007, 09:04 PM

Seems like a natural extension of your business Jake. It would cross over to us six guys as well. Would love to see you put same level of creativity into gearbox solutions

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 28 2007, 09:05 AM

...Who are you? And what have you done with Grant???



I know people that are using the same transaxle with 300 HP six motors. Should be good. If it isn't we will deal with it then.

The flares are in the garage. The big 9 and 7 X 16 RSR finish wheels are still sitting up at Harvey Wiedmans. He is using them as display models at shows until I need them. I will flare and 5 lug probably next winter. Lots of academia this winter. I am at a conference right now. Hotel is completely booked with PhDs. Chaos in sweater vests! Can't find their way to breakfast, where is the first session? Pretty fun.

Posted by: DNHunt Dec 28 2007, 10:10 AM

The few times I've AX'ed my car with my engine I've found myself backwards. It requires one to roll onto the throttle. It's certainly more of a challenge. I've said many times it's more car than I can handle.

Gary Chapman runs a narrow body 3.2 (I think) in Portland and he's given JP a run (beaten him a few times I think). Gary is just plain good and I doubt I'll ever drive near as well as him.

More tire would be good but, that isn't in the near future for me.

Dave

Posted by: ConeDodger Dec 28 2007, 10:33 AM

The Guard Torque Biasing unit should make somewhat of a difference between your experience and mine. I have driven it pretty hard and the A028R tires are pretty sticky. Nothing rotating out of shape so far. A little kick out in corners but the TB unit gathers it up pretty quickly.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 28 2007, 10:44 AM

Gary uses smallish tires......215 Kuhmo 710s IIRC. In my car he beats me by a second or so. If he would get off the dime & put some tiars under his car he'd beat me every time, me thinks.

He does have an LSD in that 3.2L which helps him put down the power.....something we have a problem with. I'm convinced, I have a TB LSD on the way.

More power & more grip reveals handling..... challenges that most guys never had considered. Not everyone wants a race car but I couldn't find a place to pull off the slippery slope.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Dec 28 2007, 11:51 AM

Next year at the GGR AX races should be a hoot! Lots of hot 914s to try and measure up to. I'll be light, sticky, and cranking out about 80 HP from my 1.7

Rob- in the spirit of sharing, I'll let you try my new wheels if we're not too busy during the race. Keizer 15x7s, 12 lbs each, with Hoosier 205 tires (4 lug). Rims wider than 5.5" really make a difference on 205s.

Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 28 2007, 01:56 PM

I like this version of Grant.... :-)

The MassIVe engine makes so much torque at such a low RPM and thats why it is very hard on trannys when you have traction..

A gearbox will never break if you are spining the tires, but when it hooks up watch out...

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 12 2008, 11:34 AM

So the latest work to the "bitchy blonde" was to go down to Original Customs in Napa where Mark and I installed temperature compensated cylinder head temperature and exhaust gas temperature guages.
I used an Appearance and Performance A pillar guage pod and Micron Aircraft Guages. The guages can be purchased at Aircraft Spruce online.

The A pillar pod fits very nicely with a little minor trimming. Be advised though, the inboard side of the back will be visible through the windshield so you will have to devise some kind of electrical tape shade to black it out.

Once the guages were in I started the 70 mile drive back to Sacramento. I saw CHT average of around 300 degrees f., and EGT average around 1400 degrees f. at cruise. Jake has an article on the board about CHT and EGT. My temperatures were right in line with what is expected.

Jake says I now have a rolling dyno. I should see EGT of just under and not over 1300 degrees f. at WOT throughout the gears. I have yet to run it on that rolling dyno but I will report back when I do. This will give us some tuning data if it isn't right on the money.

This is the look I am going for... if someone with Photoshop skills could put the vinyl back on the sail panels, remove the graphic and replace the wheels with RSR finished Fuchs it would be exactly what I want the "bitchy blonde" to look like...


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Posted by: Todd Enlund Jan 12 2008, 01:22 PM

Not a great job on the Fuchs, but I couldn't find a photo that would work. Find me a better photo (same angle and lighting as the 914, center caps), and I could do a better job...

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 12 2008, 03:19 PM

Wow Todd, That is great! RSR wheels traditionally don't have center caps because they are racing wheels. The rear wheels will have a deeper dish but that is pretty much exactly like my car will look...

Posted by: race914 Jan 12 2008, 03:38 PM

I broke down and bought a set of Rota Fox RSR 17"Fuch clones from Suby Dude (now http://www.lineacorse.com/index.php?cPath=4_9)

Don't have a pic on the 914 yet, but here they are with & without a center cap. Tires are Falken RT-615s. These are going on our 914-6 Signal Orange Nurburging 'clone'

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 12 2008, 11:42 PM

Glad to see that you have those instruments in place. I can now assist you with dialing the engine in 100% as good as possible..

It has more in it-

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 13 2008, 09:57 AM

rob, post a picture of the gauge pod when you have some time. i take it both of the gauges are analog? could you provide the part/kit #s you purchased? a writeup on the sender installs would be groovy.

k

Posted by: McMark Jan 13 2008, 02:32 PM

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=77818

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=247

Rob got the exact same ones. Installation is not hard. Routing the wires is the only time consuming part.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 13 2008, 07:38 PM

Yes. I was going to refer your request to Mark anyway... He could possibly rearrange the thread into a tech article but I just played follow the leader. Mark was the leader...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 14 2008, 07:57 AM

Thats good info...
real instruments are key to total engine optimization... I am glad to see that you stepped up to these.

BTW- Your CHT is running COOLER than a stock engine- no one ever believes me when I say the stock engine is the hottest configuration that can be built!

Efficiency. Thats the key.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 19 2008, 09:14 PM

Ok. No really conclusive data to report. I stole some time from grading papers to do a little suggested change. Jake said to go down one full step on the air correction on my Dells. 1.80mm is stock so I ordered up some 1.75mm. This is a quick job so 5 minutes after I started I was backing out of the garage having told Yopu I would be out for a drive...

There was enough traffic again so I could not get to WOT in anything but first through third and it was dark enough so I couldn't see guages too well. But, first impressions show a big change if not improvement. It pulls to redline quicker which changes things... What I mean is, I hit the rev limiter! I have never done that before! My little test route follows a curvy road and around one particular corner I found out why you guys keep talking about me needing more wheel and tire. On the throttle around the corner the rear kicks out half a car length. It does appear to be running cooler at WOT but with the quicker trip to redline I was, as they say, busier than a two peckered owl in mating season!

That CHT at cruise that had been around 300 degrees f. is now 275 degrees f.

I have a little warble going on in the exhaust system at decel which tells me I am a little richer than before. It runs smoother and felt quieter. Like the little bitch was happier...

Yes... I know. That license plate is no longer accurate.


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Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 19 2008, 09:29 PM

Sounds good.. Find a passenger and have them watch those EGTs while you drive..

It sounds like you may have a great tune going now.. Once the enrichment is dialed in we'll play with the timing and you can pick the settings you like best..

Find that service anywhere else...

And people say my stuff is expensive :-)

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 19 2008, 10:00 PM

No not expensive...

Expensive is spending a year or two with the car on jackstands while you source the cheapest "right" parts you can from 50 different sources. Then, when your done, you discover that the cam that the catalog said was a "good autocross grind" will hardly idle, is peaky as hell with all the power nowhere near where you really drive. You have just built your "ex-wife's personality" into a car. You let it sit. You put it up for sale. You finally, angrily sell it to a guy for 1/10th of what you have in the car... THAT IS EXPENSIVE!!! You spent thousands. Lost a year of your life wasted while you could have been driving the car that you loved. You have been changed for the worse by the experience.

That is why I wrote what some of you might think is a big check to Jake in the first place. There was no mystery... I knew my result would be outstanding!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 19 2008, 11:10 PM

Because the guy that wrote that description didn't know what heads, induction or exhaust you were running, nor did he care..

Those one line cam descriptions really piss me off! They act like every set of heads will maintain the function of the cam.

They don't know- they don't build engines or apply the parts! Its been the main issue with the TIV engine for years.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2008, 07:44 AM

I disagree with the expensive part. Jake's prices aren't much higher if you look at the Type IV store. Service is first rate and it gets to ya. Rebecca is a sweetheart.

I have seen these guys work on stuff. Many of the parts are their own design or are tweeked. If it's a part out of the store that is in it's originally packaging it will work cause they've tried it.

People always confuse cost and value. If a person just looks at cost when they decide whether to buy something they will often be disappointed. Whether something is exspensive or cheap may not have much to do with whether it's a good value or not. There is nothing wrong with selling expensive products if the value is also high. People will be satisfied, lock at Rob and myself and all of Jake's customers. Quality, dependability, and how a businessman stands behind their product really determine value.

I'll tell you the hot value is the new engine kits with their mock up service. Everthing will go together and no hassles with deck height, valve train geometry, end play. Just keep it clean (I mean CLEAN, Jake is fanantical about that, think white glove inspection CLEAN) , follow the instructions, bolt it and run it. That will be a true value.

Dave

Posted by: J P Stein Jan 20 2008, 08:40 AM

I feel so.......cheated. I rebuilt my motor and have all "off the shelf" Porsche parts.
My only tweaks are case savers & nobody knows what they are.
My bragging rights are nil. No cutesie names or anything. I'm bummed.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2008, 09:01 AM

I'm not feeling sorry for you JP. You car goes like crazy. I'll be lucky to get a wiff of your exhaust.

Dave

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 20 2008, 09:06 AM

are you home?

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2008, 09:18 AM

Yep,

My plane was in Atlanta last Friday night so it left boarded on time. Most of the flights coming in Sat morning from the east had problems so a lot of flights were cancelled. Trouble was the rain turned to snow about an hour before we boarded so we had to de-ice. That made us late getting into Phoenix so I had to run to catch my connector. I was really hoping to stick my face outside for a minute just to feel some sun in Phoenix. Oh well, I made it home about 5:30. I was just in time to make it a dance lesson. I'm learning to waltz.

Dave

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 20 2008, 09:33 AM

ah...ballroom dancing. i knew there would be a price to be paid for all this engine biz. you'll be on all the ladie's dance cards at the next shindig at fircrest.

k

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2008, 09:49 AM

Not the way I dance. But I am learning to count to 3

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 20 2008, 12:25 PM

Oh God. I pray that Yopu does not see this thread. Please don't let her see this thread. If she does I will have to take dancing lessons. Please God...

Of course I will dance with her. I just don't want to have to take the lessons!!!

Dave, if you're good at it, she will want to go all the time!


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Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 20 2008, 12:57 PM

Thank God that Beth hates dancing as much as I do..

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 20 2008, 03:47 PM

Ok, Back on topic. Those same papers still need grading but...

I took a drive on the curveys to get the "bitchy blonde" good and warmed up. Then got on the freeway and waited at the shoulder for some open traffic. I then jumped on it with a vengence. I took her up through the gears...

First thing I notice is a more free reving engine. She likes that smaller air correction. Seems to have helped particularly in the midrange but I have to say and you guys considering this kit have got to listen to this, this motor is on the cam right off idle and all the way to the redline. She responds everywhere. Not like my 3.2 six in the Carrera. The 3.2 comes into the power at about 4K RPM and stays in it to the redline. With this motor if you turn on the hot water you better be ready to get scalded because as soon as you turn the handle she is hot!!!

So, on to the data. The EGT at WOT with a warm engine and 52 degree f. ambient are closer to 1300 than 1375. The cruise CHT has indeed as I said yesterday come down to about 275 from the 300 with the 1.80mm air correction.

I defer to Jake for the next move...


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Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 20 2008, 08:20 PM

Add two degrees of timing and call me in the morning :-)

Seriously...

Yes, the powerband is my single favorite part of this combo.. It has power everywhere and without any hesitation.. Try to get me some video of the experience and I'll edit it into something cool... I need some editing projects anyway. I need practice before going to the next level...

Posted by: McMark Jan 20 2008, 08:42 PM

And you need raw video to send to me, Jake.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 20 2008, 11:16 PM

yep.... I'll have some this week, with this and Rob's we should have enough for the intros

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 2 2008, 10:02 PM

Ok, so the two degrees is in. The oil leaks are taken care of. Some good fun has been had besides the "just driving to work" which is still quite a lot of fun. With the nylon motor mounts out and the stock ones back in it is much more enjoyable to drive.

Today we took a couple brisk drives. Ambient is about 55 - 60 F. EGT at WOT was about 1300 F.

This engine rocks even without the 40HP Dave has on me...

I want that 40HP though. Next engine will have all the bells and whistles.

Posted by: LarryR Mar 2 2008, 11:11 PM

I have been meaning to ask you. What sort of gas mileage are you getting out of your 2270?

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 3 2008, 12:26 AM

Larry,

I almost laughed when I saw your question. The answer is that my foot is so far into the thing most of the time that I would expect - not good. I honestly haven't checked. My neighbor lady who is in her 60's asked for a ride today. She says "I always know which car you are driving when you come down the driveway". "Each has its own sound and character" according to her.

Have you picked up your car from Mark yet? It seemed like it was pretty close to done last trip down there.

I will try to get a more accurate idea of mileage...

Posted by: Todd Enlund Mar 3 2008, 01:16 AM

That is so cool...

Posted by: LarryR Mar 3 2008, 01:47 AM

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 3 2008, 09:33 AM

I averaged 24 MPG on my 3,450 mile cross country trip in 2006 with the engine exacting Rob's in my 66 Beetle test car..

Most 2270s will attain 26-27 MPG in my experience, even if they are driven mostly spirited.

With gas prices on the uphill climb again I have a 2.8L twin plug engine thats designed for extreme MPG that we are now weoking on again.. Its a twin plugged beast detuned for MPG and huge balls.

I just finished installing it into a test car this weekend and we'll see what it will get for MPG soon.

Posted by: degreeoff Mar 3 2008, 01:38 PM

well when are we goina see some video of these monsters???? As in running in a car?

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 3 2008, 02:56 PM

We don't do much "car work".. Most of my non engine building tools have started to rust!

I will be finished with one this coming weekend and you'll see some video of it at some point.. But its not a 914.