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Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 01:43 PM

Dave has spent another week with us here at Aircooled Heaven.. The veterans of the board know Dave, know of his misfortune with his engine kit (several times) and know just how determined Charles and I were to get the issues figured out..


No need to revisit those (and for the sake of everyone) we won't be talking about what WAS the issue, because it has now been solved..

The point is Dave's engine made more power than any 2270 we had ever dynoed on pump gas and we have figured out why... More on that later.

I figured I'd post the numbers from today's very first pull.. This was done with SDS with DEFAULT fuel values, right out of the box!!

here is Dave's SDS/ Direct fire results from today.. This is running a ull cooling fan with no impellers removed, both tests we'll compare were exactly the same, we even kept the same advance curve as the Mallory that was on his engine during his last session and nothing else has been changed except carbs Vs EFI.

Note that this is one of the few times that we have had an EFI engine make more peak HP than a carbureted engine in back to back comparions. Typically the carbs kick the shit out of FI at peak power but the EFI kicks the shit out of carbs EVERYWHERE else, making a broader more usable power band with better average HP... This was an oddity that I attribute to the cam shaft design that I did for this engine- it is specifically made for EFI, but still does damn good with carbs..

With SDS


Same timing and set up with 45 Dells


Same Tangerine Evo exhaust was used for both tests, numbers are corrected for weather differences between Dave's last visit and today.

200HP with the stock fan is just a pull away... On pump gas and it doesn't need more than 6,000 RPM to do it.

I told you we'd whip this issue.

Like I said, this is right out of the box with our defauklt tuning.. Its not even close to optimized yet and was rich below 4500 RPM-

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 17 2008, 01:48 PM

damm, those are nice curves!
Andy

Posted by: mudfoot76 Jan 17 2008, 01:50 PM

+1


And April still seems like such a long time away...

Posted by: messix Jan 17 2008, 01:52 PM

this stuff makes me think that a six is not an option.

great power

simple install

no oil tank and lines

and lots more of that extra six expensive stuff

gee wiz!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 02:00 PM

The first run with enrichment manipulation..

We are damn near finished with tuning.. Dave is making some timing changes as I type this..



Dave is watching everyt move I make and HE is tuning the tuning changes..

OK, now we tried some timing adjustments, almost ready to swap to the AX 12 blade fan and see what we get.. With carbs and that fan this same engine made 209 HP..

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 02:11 PM

Made a partial run with added timing, lost power and gained CHT.. Now we are going the other direction with a 2 degree timing reduction..

AFR- RPM fuel values are done :-)

After this verification pull it's time to play with variables like oil, fans and etc...

Posted by: 904svo Jan 17 2008, 02:12 PM

Dave must be one happy camper now!

Posted by: 914Sixer Jan 17 2008, 02:31 PM

Holy Shit Batman !!! Simply AMAZING !

Posted by: toon1 Jan 17 2008, 02:33 PM

What are the AFR's and timing curves

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 02:39 PM

Nope.. Not amazing, just fruits of our labor and development..

It is awesome though and even more cool that this is an engine that Dave built on a kit!

Here is the final dyno run with the stock fan, just as Dave will use it in the car..

Tuning is completed. We started at 1330 and were done in less than two hours. Dave will need to correct for some manifold pressure differences that we can't attain at my elevation when he gets it in the car..

Sometimes that 1HP is so hard to get...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 02:40 PM

I ALWAYS target 13:1

If we post the timing curves someone else will try to use them and may harm their engine, without this cam, CR and set of heads these won't do anyone any good..

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 02:52 PM

OK, we swapped fans and did another comparison between carbs/ FI...

Here are the results.. Up first is todays SDS run with the modified fan.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 02:54 PM

OK, we swapped fans and did another comparison between carbs/ FI...

Here are the results.. Up first is todays SDS run with the modified fan.


And here is the data from the last session with the exact same fan in place with carbs.


Everything matters!

Posted by: 904svo Jan 17 2008, 03:12 PM

Once again, Jake prove thats it's in the combo. Those graphs should made a
lot of people rethink about changing the engine when you can get a combo a
lot cheaper! An it fits with out modifications to the engine bay.

I think Dave will be busy when he gets home, with all those people pulling out their teeth.

Jake keep up the good work.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 03:15 PM

Now I want to apply these changes to my 2316-210 current kit engine...

But it'll be 2010 before that happens.. Kits are locked in stone till then...

But I could always toss this cam in a typical 2270-175 for those who want the same engine :-)

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 17 2008, 03:18 PM

Oh my... Anyone interested in buying a just broken in 2270 so I can build another one????

Jake, how much do you think the Nickies are contributing? They are known for a bit of HP boost as well as some cooling advantage right?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 03:31 PM

The Nickies are contributing greatly.. They allowed the CR for this engine to become so efficient.. The highest head temp we recorded was 335F during the entire session.. A BONE STOCK engine runs 15-20 degrees hotter than that..

Based on what I saw yesterday from a very, very similar combo running the same heads and cam they are making a 5% power addition..

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 17 2008, 04:40 PM

it's a stump puller at 6k. wow. notable changes in the temps with the ax fan? will the near sea level and humidity have a net + or - on the power? put the powerplant in the box and send dave home.

k

Posted by: toon1 Jan 17 2008, 04:50 PM

WOW!!! JUST FREAKIN WOW!!

212hp from a NA, type IV, that's awsome!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 04:58 PM

The temp increase with the AX fan was 25-35 degrees over the stock fan, at higher RPM the mod fan cooled much better.

This engine has about 13-15 hours of run time on it and it runs better than it did when it first fired up!

I really think this one would live 90-100K if taken care of, even if beaten pretty hard. It's smooth as a cat's ass!

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 17 2008, 05:07 PM

So with the autocross fan you are still only around "stock engine" temperatures. Would you call that streetable? Or would stop light idle be a problem?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 05:12 PM

Streetable unless you have a stock fifth gear.. drive around in 4th and you'll be just fine...

I'll send you one, you can try it..

Posted by: jaminM3 Jan 17 2008, 05:46 PM

So was the difference the cam?

I am seriously considering this combo, but I already have a set of Len't heads...

Posted by: HAM Inc Jan 17 2008, 06:22 PM

Ben your heads are nice stock reman heads, but they won't support that kind of HP. Sell the heads and order a pair of LE-200's. You will get the same heads Dave has.
I went back and looked at the notes for Daves heads (I do this whenever big #'s jump out of a combo) and Daves heads were one of the first pairs of Gen2 LE-200's. The Gen3's (where we are now) are virtually the same with the only difference being that they are CNC port matched to our custom phenolic intake gaskets. Prior to that I hand matched. Aside from the fact that they are LE-200's, there is nothing overly special about the heads, meaning I didn't experiment with a different seat profile or tool path (I ONLY do that on engines Jake is building and testing anyway) the kits are always tried and true technologies.
I believe that aside from highlighting Jakes ability to spec out a great combo, these fabulous results also show just what a bad ass tuner he is. I saw this first hand at Road Atlanta last year with our F-Prod 914, and earlier at Lanier during a test seesion. He has a sixth sense for it!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 07:32 PM

Thanks Len...

My edge with tuning is the fact that I design the combo, oversee it's assembly and then do all the tuning... It's like a Chef that tastes all the food he cooks and alters the recipe as he goes.

I was REALLY on my game today, I only missed one forecast during the entire tuning session.

This engine has made more power than any 2563 we have built to date, thats right 300ccs more displacement with the same heads isn't better than the 2270! Thats the reason why this is the combo I love so well...

Bigger isn't better- one day people will liusten when I tell them that the 2270 is the most efficient combo that can be built for the TIV.

It is.

Posted by: Gint Jan 17 2008, 07:59 PM

Wow. I'm impressed. If all of my available cash wasn't earmarked for the final bits for my /6 resto I'd be ordering a kit for the 4 banger.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 17 2008, 08:23 PM

Well, this is way beyond what I expected. There are several things to clear up. First, these guys know their stuff. They have a really good idea what they are going to get with a combo so, it was a real surprise to exceed their expectations. Nice though. Second, the engines that come out of there are beautiful. I've seen quite a few in production in my 2 trips and they are works of art. Mine looks like a pig next to them but you know about beauty. Third these guys have the patience of Job, to stick with my project and then to put up with my asking for help finding stuff and checking stuff. Beyond that, it's a fun place. People are very friendly and they enjoy what they do. They like a good joke too.

Tuning went like this. Install. Look for previous record of engines that are similar. Change a few of the fuel values. Start it. Change a few of the MAP values. Enter timing values that Jake dictated from memory. Do a series of pulls, Change about 1/4 of the fuel values by calculating the difference in AFR's. Change 1 more AFR value. At that point Jake said "We're about done". We made changes to the timing but, both times it was worse as Jake said it would be. Then we played with the fan. Session over. It was short sweet and easy. So different than my experience with Megasquirt. Simple Digital Systems is the right name. Course it helps to have a great tuner and good equipment.

Here's a few pics.

My first challenge was mounting the SDS Hall sensors. I chose my favorite spot behind the fan but, Blake suggested the side nearest the alternator. and the he came up with a precut bracket that I modified.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 17 2008, 08:28 PM

I added the magnets to an old AC pulley (I think). Anyway it was perfect for the job.



I did most of the install on the dyno

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 08:32 PM

One good thing that came from this session was a BOLT ON easy way to do the hall effect sensor for the SDS.. To date we have never done it the same way twice, but the pic Dave illustrates here will be our standard method from now on.. It all bolts on easily.

Dave is one hell of a nice guy... I even took him for a ride in a golf cart and in the Pinzgauer that he won't forget.. Driving around in 4" of snow after midnight in pouring sleet and freezing rain..

All in all we jumped the golf cart off an embankment and then ran the Pinzgauer into a tree at WOT sliding off the side of the mountain sideways... Tell them Dave.... LOL

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 17 2008, 08:36 PM

Ready to go.



Jake filmed some of it so if it doesn't end up on the cutting room floor my engine will be in the movies

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 17 2008, 08:44 PM

All done and time to take it off the dyno.



By the way, the Pinzgauer ride was at about 12 midnight and the golf cart ride was at about 2 AM. Damn lot of fun, we were both howling. He was drifting a golf cart and making his own road with the Pinz. Then we watched "The Fastest Indian" untill about 4 AM. Jake is kind of like Burt Munro portrayed in the movie. He sticks to it.

Anyway, I'm beat now and need some sleep. I have a day to pack up and crate.

Thanks Jake

Posted by: grantsfo Jan 17 2008, 08:44 PM

Great work guys. Curious if you have done chassis dynos on any 2270 motors yet? Just curious how things change in the car.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 17 2008, 08:51 PM

It's gonna change. I didn't have the alternator hooked up of course and then the running gear. When I had a chassis dyno done on an old 2056 the guy said it would eat 15 hp. I thought that was conservative but' who knows.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 08:51 PM

Yes.. Many times..
In a 914 I have had 180 FWHP engines drop to 148 RWHP.

The 2270 I did for Hot VWs made 170 FWHP and when I put it into my test car for the cross country trip it made 148 RWHP with the exact same tuning.

Chassis dyno numbers are so variable, tire pressure, gear oil, tranny temp, brake adjustment/ dragging calipers and etc create variables that aren't "The engine".. Thats why we don't have a chassis dyno.

The Spyder we did for the Blow it up show made 244 FWHP and 211 RWHP....

The 901 tranny is the most power sucking box I have experienced yet, the Type 1 tranny loses 1/2 as much power at the rear wheels as the 901..

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 08:53 PM

The alternator is good for 6HP, we have seen as little as 3 HP back to back. I have never seen more than 6 from a stoc alternator.

Posted by: r_towle Jan 17 2008, 09:09 PM

Jake,
In the first post you said the motor had a "ull" fan.
What is that?

And, just confirm this...190 + HP with stock tin and stock fan?
What are the CHT's from that setup?
Just want to know what YOU think the high limit is of the CHT before you fix something.

Rich

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 17 2008, 09:12 PM

that is a "typo" my friend ...

it's supposed to read "full fan" as in "no blades removed" ...
Andy

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 17 2008, 09:15 PM

I think I'll go to sleep and count horses. I should be asleep before I get to 199.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 17 2008, 09:22 PM

Yes, 194 to be exact... Stock fan in place, all stock tin and COOLER than stock temps.

I don't worry about head temps till they get to 370 sustained or 400 peak.. This engine never hit 350, not even once.

A thoroughbred combo that is efficient doesn't generate heat.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Jan 17 2008, 10:26 PM

What is "FWHP" and what is "RWHP"? Or specifically, what do the first two letters represent?

Posted by: gregrobbins Jan 17 2008, 10:32 PM

Fly wheel horse power--measured on an engine dyno

Rear wheel horse power--measured on a chassis dyno with the motor in the car and taking readings off the rear tires.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Jan 17 2008, 10:34 PM

Ah, thanks. I'm used to BHP (brake hp, engine dyno) and WHP (wheel hp, chassis).

Posted by: Krieger914 Jan 17 2008, 10:37 PM

Fly wheel horse power, rear wheel horse power. GOOD JOB JAKE/DAVE

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 17 2008, 11:05 PM

My hats off to you guys. Nice work.

Posted by: Zimms Jan 18 2008, 04:47 AM

Jake

Can a 915 be used adn have you had any results with it?

Thanks,

Mark

Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 18 2008, 05:47 AM

How do you put a bug box in a 914? It would be better all around for Autocross. Only need 3 gears mostly but occasionaly 4.
lighter and LSD's are cheaper.

HMMMMMM.

Posted by: ottox914 Jan 18 2008, 07:14 AM

About the bug box... had some of the same thoughts, but never really researched it out...

Jake/Dave- I see ITB's on the pics of the test engine. How big are they? I'm curious as to what size you used to compair to the ones I bought from you a couple yrs back.

Jake- I see the bracket for the SDS crank sensor is mounted on the alternator side, and you used an old A/C pulley for the mags. I used the same pulley. There are 2 that styles of puley that were used, one had angled sides, the other was flat. I see a run coming on the flat style pulley. I had considered the mounting bracket system you used but discounted it as I wanted the sensor and wireing as far away from the alternator as possible to avoid any electrical interferance issues. Looks like that mounting position is working fine w/no electrical problems for you. Thats great, as it makes for an easier install on the next engine. My SDS thread below has pics of how we did the install on my project.

Dave- I'd pay close attention to your actual routing of those sensor cables as they go back to the ECU when you fully dress the motor and get it back in your car.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 18 2008, 07:37 AM

Yes, and Yes... I even have a special flywheel that uses the 915 clutch pack and bolts right to a TIV engine. I am using a 915 in my 60' beetle with this same arrangement coupled to my 280 HP 2.8L N/A pump gas engine.



These are 45s. Most of the time a 40mm T/B works better with this combo, but Dave's engine is "different".


Correct.. Most of the angled pulleys came on Bus engines.


I have dozens of them. Making a laser cut replica of it with the holes for the magnets built right in is what I'll do as well as having the bracket laser cut as well. This will allow for absolute bolt on capability for anyone.


The wires are shielded and the alternator doesn't have high voltage interference.. I knew we'd be OK because an alternator doesn't even generate enough static to make my CHT sensors and thermocouples do wacky things...


None at all... Dave wondered how well it would work, but I told him it would be fine.



We have never done it the same way twice with stock cooling.. Now we'll never do it another way.

Posted by: Root_Werks Jan 18 2008, 08:52 AM

This is a really good thread and example of what Jake is capable of doing to a Type4 engine. My next project is just starting but is sure looking like it might end up with one of Jakes engines.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 18 2008, 08:55 AM

dave will pace like a tiger in a cage waiting for the engine to arrive at the fedex center in fife. dave, let me know if you want me to pull 'big red' out of it's winter sleep to haul it home.

k

Posted by: Root_Werks Jan 18 2008, 08:59 AM

On that same note K, I am sure Dave knows if he needs any help he'll have it.

Not that you would want a bunch of people watching over you as the engine goes in. But if you don't mind, let us know when and I'll try like hell to make it over.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 18 2008, 08:55 PM

I got it all packed up despite a few distractions. The afternoons' entertainment was a watch Jake's Pinz destroy a desk. This trip Jake took me off roadin the Pinz in the snow, cutting donuts in the snow with a golf cart and now this. Fun got in the way of work.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 18 2008, 08:57 PM

It was an absolute riot. The desk was mighty tough.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 18 2008, 09:18 PM

That damn desk was tough as hell!!!

Blake looks like he is square dancin' or something!

Glad you enjoyed the trip.. It was nice havin ya.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jan 19 2008, 11:40 AM

How much ya wanta bet Dave can get 20 guys to help put that sucker in when it comes back from Georgia???

It's already broken in so test rides start right off the jack stands!

Who wants to sign up???

Posted by: byndbad914 Jan 19 2008, 04:24 PM

Jake - is the cam one of your roller grinds or tappet grind? You using the Schubeck (or whatever they were called) design lifters with no bearings on the roller?

Posted by: brer Jan 19 2008, 05:50 PM

I hope that wasn't an old steelcase desk.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 19 2008, 08:07 PM

This is a conventional camshaft!! it is NOT a roller profile!!! In fact it is a STOCK camshaft profile for a domestic sports car! I "robbed" the profile in 2005 especially for FI engine development but I never dreamed it would do anything like this!

Posted by: byndbad914 Jan 20 2008, 02:29 AM

wow Jake, kudos then dude. That is impressive power per cube then (sorry, don't think in liters and cc's very well hahaha).

2.27L*~60cubes/L=136.2 cubes
200HP/136.2=1.468HP/cube

My car is 353 cubes * 1.468 ~ 518HP. I made 525HP on mine with a raspy tappet cam so that is some solid numbers with a small tappet cam. Actually I bleed off a lot of cylinder pressure on my car which hurts me a bit in overall power, but I just wanted all that noise hahaha That is a good combo you have going there for the type 4 crowd

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2008, 07:08 AM

David

I already have the engine bay layout planned. With the Hall sensor cables I'll make a hard right angle turn upward and machine a spot for a grommet between the case and the cooling shroud near where the bracket is for the thermostat cable.

The coil will be amid ships on the rear firewall and plug leads will run to the cylindrs from the rear. All of the sensors andFI leads will run from the fan end of the engine. Relays will be on the front firewall behind the driver's head and the breather box will be on the front firewall behind the passenger's head. The ECU will be between the seats at the firewall.

Dave

Posted by: davep Jan 20 2008, 09:03 AM

Sensor leads may benefit from using a braided steel sleeve that is grounded at one end. The sleeve acts as a Faraday shield to help keep the leads from acting as a radio antenna and picking up stray voltages (interference) from a noisy environment. I use this all the time for thermocouple leads in my lab.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 20 2008, 09:25 AM

Yep, It ran with the CHT in close proximity to the lead to #3 so I suspect that it will be fine. I'll loop the sparp plug wires around the back of the tin and approach the plug to #3 from below and outboard of the plug. I'll lead the CHT up and slightly back so it'll be at closest approach about 3" .

The really critical leads in the harness are already sheilded and the sheild is grounded at The ECU.

Dave

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 25 2008, 05:56 PM

It seems I have a crate down at the local FedEx Freight depot. It looks like my engine made it from Georgia to Washington in 5 days. That's hauling ass I think in the winter.

Dave

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Jan 25 2008, 07:06 PM

Cool, it hauls ass and it isn't even in the car yet!
I'm waiting on some 914 race parts to show, and still waiting, and waiting...hoping to work on it this weekend

Posted by: rebelmdot Jan 25 2008, 10:13 PM

Now that Dave's engine is fantastic, I should introduce myself. I will be your next patient!!

Congratulations to you both, it seems like a lot of hard work was put in to make yet another IV scream.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 26 2008, 12:51 AM

Now if Dave's curse doesn't come back we'll be fine....

BTW- Based on what we saw this week in the lab we may have a 200 HP 2056 before a 200 HP production grade 2270....

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 26 2008, 08:25 AM

wow!! fast is right. i'm fairly sure they are open today until 11:30 am in fife.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 26 2008, 10:04 AM

All done Kevin, it's at home in the garage. I couldn't pass up the dry weather so I went down about 7:30 and got it. They were also treatening storage fees. It looks like it shipped fine. I've got a big cleanup up in the shop, but I hope by Sunday night to have on a dolly. I can't see getting it in the car for another month or so.

Dave

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 26 2008, 10:50 AM

a month...right...i've known you too long. you'll be lying in bed @ 3:30 am staring at the ceiling and by 3:45 you'll be out in the shop.

k

Posted by: effutuo101 Jan 26 2008, 10:57 AM

Right on Dave! I can't wait to hear it run! I bet you are out cleaning the garage now. You have the patience of a saint if you can wait for 30 days without at least putting it in the car.

Posted by: BMXerror Jan 26 2008, 03:06 PM

What CR is this engine running?
Mark D.

Posted by: DNHunt Jan 26 2008, 09:28 PM

In the neighborhood of 9.8:1

Dave

Posted by: Zimms Jan 27 2008, 08:48 AM

Any torque figures you want to share?

Posted by: BMXerror Jan 27 2008, 12:09 PM

Okay, NOW I'm impressed! Good job Dave and Jake.
Mark D.

Posted by: seanery Oct 1 2018, 09:55 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=598

Hey Dave, how has this engine done over the years?