did i miss something ???
Because you don't have to re-drill a 4 hub.
Let this go a few days and make all the edits you want Andy and get it all correct. Then I'll create a tech article.
Andy,
Thanks for the write up. I will probably be using this exact method on my car.
I do have a question. I don't understand the differences in the various transmission output flanges. I am assuming that the course (33 teeth?) flange you mention works with 901/914 transmissions. Does that also work with early 915 transmissions that I think also used a course flange? I think that later 915 transmissions used a fine (43 teeth?) flange. Will this later 915 flange work with this setup?
Overall with the 915, I am concerned if the CV still bolts up (hole pattern and bolt size) and about the output flange to stub axle distance (is the distance the same regardless of which transmission and flange you use. In short, will the 914 axle length always be correct)
I would like to do exactly as you have described, but with my 914 transmission today and then in the future switch to a 915 transmission with hopefully the only potential change is in the output flange.
Great article!
It would be helpful to list the actual part numbers under "Tools and Supplies."
Looking forward to using this info in the near future.
THANKS Andy!
How does this affect the issue with the parking/emergency brake? I understand that the 911 conversion negates the use of the parking brake; does this have the same problem or is it a non issue based on the fact that your not changing out the entire suspension.
Uneducated minds would like to know.
Andy, nice write up!
I'm going to add a few things here so that it can be found when searching. Andy's method is a great and economical solution for the wimpy 914 CV's. If you are running big horsepower and large sticky tires you "can" go even bigger. It will cost a lot more though.
I used course flange 108mm stub axles\CV's that came off the early 911's They are the biggest CV's available that will fit and even larger than the 944's. You can snag the early 911 5 lug stub axles that will bolt right on a 914 as well. (mine were off a 69)
To tie it together I bought some Sway-A-Way free floating race axles that can be bought in most any length you desire. Hopefully a bullet-proof system. http://www.swayaway.com/OffRoadRacing.php#AXLES
First off, thanks!!
Requested additions;
1. I'd recommend verifying run-out of the of the hub prior to installing. Put it in a lath and use a dial indicator (while rotating the hub by hand). If the source car was in an accident, the hub could be bent and you may not see it by eye. If you don't notice it until installed, you will have to buy new bearings when you replace it with a good one. (BTDT)
2. CV bolts should be replaced with longer ones to match the 944's wider width. It may be recommended to use grade 8 bolts that allow safety wire. At least, locktite the bolts.
3. For us newbies, the 100mm reference is the outside diameter of the CV, not the bolt circle. Of course, that's if that's correct.
Wes
Andy,
You have outdone yourself again. I wish I was your next door neighbor. I'd be one smart fucher with these cars.
Andy thanks for your help on this. I did this conversion for my axles last summer following Andy's original post. I have not installed axles in my car yet. I have one difference in how I did this. I bought new complete OEM cv kits. I did used the original spring washer installed on the axle prior to the cv being installed. It went together just as any other cv that I installed. I am not sure why Andy omits this. Hopefully he'll chime in. When I did my conversion I bought a used 944 axle/cv and disassembled it and took the parts to my machinist. He duplicated the exact profile of the 944 axle on my 914/4. I have a technical drawing of what he did if Andy wishes to have it included. Sorry to high-jack. Also FYI if you have 914/6 axles they have the same # splines as 6 bolt 100mm 911 cvs.
Just a quick update. I have been running my axles for a year now, two 2000 mile roadtrips and a few AX events. All with the 3.6L putting quite a bit of torque through them.
So far, no problems at all ...
Based on Andy's notes I've assembled these details on part numbers...
Rear hub 1969 --> 1973 "901 331 065 09" 911 T/E/S *Not Carrera"
Rear Axel 1970 --> 1983 "901 332 232 00" 911 SC/SPM *Not Turbo*
944 CVs Any year, non-turbo "944 331 901 00"
I haven't researched transmission flanges. They will depend on your transmission selection.
Alternate method: *no machine work*
I should add that I found this method burried on another website and I haven't confirmed it's validity but here goes...
-Rear hub 1969 --> 1973 "901 331 065 09" 911 T/E/S *Not Carrera"
-Audi 5000 front wheel bearings, three bearings internally compaired to 999-053-021-00 dual bearing for 914's and 911's.
-944 Turbo stub axel (951 332 235 35) mates with 911 hub
-944 Turbo CV joints (951 332 901 00)
-914 axel shaft
-911S,SC / 912E transmission flange (923 332 209 02) 1974 --> 1983
The original author claimed no machining / no spacers / 901 or 915 and the use of 100MM CV joints.
I am not able to find a part number for the Audi wheel bearing. So far my searches indicate that the Porsche bearing is the same for the Audi 5000. But from my Audi days I do seem to recall that the 5000 did have a better bearing option.
I did exactly what Andy did. Here is the profile my machinist took off the 944 axle and cut into my 914 axle.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Shit! I just noticed the date at the bottom. My axles were done 3 years ago, but my car is....still not done.
There is another twist to the axle / cv delima, machine one end of the axle to fit the 944 cv , bolt that to the wheel side output flange ( 911 or modified 944 stub ) where the cv bolts to, the trans side leave un machined if you can't find the 911 / 915 course splined output flange for the 100mm cv, just use the 914 cv and trans flanges till you can get the proper flange to use the 944 100mm cv . when you get the flange for conversion , remove the axle , tkae to machine shop , have them machine the un machined end to fit the 944 100mm cv , install trans flange , cv , bolt up and go !!
My $.02 ....
Jack / Jaxdream
•two 911 ('69 - '73?) hubs, must have same bearing surface width as the 914 hubs
can the above hubs be drilled to 4 lug for those that want the strength but want to remain 4 lug ( wheels, calipers, rotors ) ??
found answer in different thread - yes.
What about using 944 hubs?
Well I am going to give it a try. What do I have to lose as I have 944 hubs on there right now.
The 944 hub also sticks out a little farther for those running modern offset wheels. This should allow one to use smaller wheel spacers.
Having gone through this recently, The 911, 944 and 930 CV's have the same inner-race depth. So technically, you could run the 911(if you could find them) or /930 CV's on modified (as above) original 914-6 axles, or 944 CV's on the 914 axles. Take your pick!
But remember, the 944 stub axles require an inboard spacer so they mate up to the 914 wheel bearings properly. 911 SC stubs work without mods.
Good luck
Is this inboard spacer a custom piece or available somewhere?
Also there are early 944 hubs and late (85.5+) hubs.
Maybe this spacer you are talking about is only for the early 944?
Update on 944 hubs.
They don't work becuase they push the brake rotor out too far. This makes the brake caliper to rotor alignment incorrect.
matt
You can use spacers on the caliper to line them up
Have you tried the 944 rear rotor? Its quite a bit shallower.
No I haven't but I assume this would require me to run a different rear brake caliper?
Matt
Why? I believe they're within 1mm in diameter.
Ahhhhh.. That, yes, they are vented. For some reason I though you were using vented with this setup.
Go with the caliper spacers... Good enough for Ferrari good enough for you
If caliper spacers are too janky, then pull your trailing arms, weld more material onto the caliper mounts, mill it, drill it, and tap it. Ahhhh, perfection.
Or maybe some red anodized billet aluminum spacers.
Just giving you a hard time...
Haha! Well I think swapping hubs would be a tad easier than metal fabrication
Spacers it is.
Hey Jack,
I have not measured yet (hopefully get some time in this weekend).
If you are looking to push out your wheels for inner clearance, this would help for sure. I will take some measurements this weekend and post back.
So you are running m rear calipers in the rear? Did you lose the e-brake?
Matt
Yes M rear calipers and converted to alternative e-brake. I modified the arms to use 944/928 e brake shoes with 944 shoe expanders. The welds and mod looks fffuuuugggly , but it will work using the 914 passenger side cable modified with the 944 ends to the shoe expander. I check and check mocking the operation of it , inside the 911 rear rotor / drum it doesn't need to expand very far. Haven't installed the cables and such yet , all bench testing . Used part of a 928 and 911 backing plated grafted together to hold shoes and spreader . Welded a 1/4 thick piece of angle for the anchor plate for the shoes . Plans ( yeah right ) are to use a 964 e-brake lever center mounted over the rear of the tunnel , on the list to do in the future and have read just about every thread / post on e-brake mods that I can find.
Jack
some cv dim info
http://blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm
for clarification - this set up requires four 33 spline 944 cvs which are from years 1986/87. pelican has them for $78.25 each.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/944M/POR_944M_SUSaxl_pg1.htm#item0
cause my next car will be suby engine and suby trans and porcharu's magic flanges, i will only be needing from tsi set up for my set up. 2 911 stub axles and 2 911 hubs - along with complete bus axle assys with 100mm cvs.
Andy,
Many thanks for putting this write up together. I'm in the middle of this same project.
Question - Do the 944 CV's require CV gaskets between the stub/cv and trans/cv?
Another way to accomplish this task is with 944/951 stub axles instead of SC stubs. A 5mm spacer is required on the bearing flange (944's/later 911's used a 5mm wider bearing).
And it appears the 951 stubs do not require a cv gasket (they are flanged to fit over the corners of the cv joint).
See 951 stub below - no cv gasket required.
I had to use a cv gasket between the inner cv and trans output flange.
Yes, they do require a CV gasket. If you don't put them in, it slings grease everywhere... BTDT!
No.
Only on the inner CV.
roger matt. Thanks.
BTW - anyone need any 951 stub axle spacers made? Having my machinist bang out a set for me, and figured - while he's making some......
Is this the same Aaron Cox that hasn't posted in eleventeen years?
His stub axles are the type that do not need seals.
I have those stubs and no grease is slingin'
what the heck, a few bucks each I'll run them.
Now, anyone else need 944 stub axle bearing spacers? Got the material, cranking out at least a pair for me....
I could use a pair of those spacers as well, pm sent.
"Now, anyone else need 944 stub axle bearing spacers? Got the material, cranking out at least a pair for me...."
Oh heck yea! I would make a contribution for the material!
Looks like 6 or so people interested in spacers for 944 stubs (or late 911 hubs).
My machinist pal started on them yesterday, and should be able to get them done next week.
Looking at 25/pair shipped. Pays for beer and materials
Steel Stub Spacers.
Interesting...
I think you can run a 944 (non turbo/s/s2) automatic axle AS IS. I still plan to run the 944cv's on the 914/4 axles, but it looks like its possible to just buy what you need.
Top is a 914/4 axle, 33 splines.
Middle is a 944 Automatic Axle, 33 splines.
Bottom is a 944 Manual axle, 33 Splines.
Am I too late for a pair of those spacers?
There's a guy on e-bay now selling a set of automatic 944 axles and from the photo they're different lengths, side to side. I don't know where to find a 944 microfiche, but probably worth checking the part numbers.
Sure, ill have my bud crank out another set.
Hmmm, maybe we would need only 944 auto, but 2 of the short side. Either way, should work.
My /4 axles get machined this week.
Gimme your paypal addy!
OK, I still couldn't find a microfiche, but there are left and right side axles for the auto trans 944's. Here are Autozone links for http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Reman-CV-Axle/1984-Porsche-944/_/N-iuwqpZ6o2dc?itemIdentifier=447037_0_6153_1277 and http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Reman-CV-Axle/1984-Porsche-944/_/N-iuwqpZ6o2dc?itemIdentifier=447036_0_6739_1277 sides. Says the left is 17" and the right 15". That's $75 bucks for a complete axle with a limited lifetime warranty, not bad.
So what's the length of that axle you have?
There is a NOS set of 944 automatic axles on SF Craigs List... $100
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/pts/2906895456.html
From the part number those are both right side axles, which according to the Autozone description are the shorter 15" length. I don't think they fit, but need the measurement from Aaron to know which 944 axle he used in the photo, or the stock length of a 914 axle length to compare.
Updates - I'll go measure the short 944 axle at lunch.
Also, my buddy should be finishing up spacers today or Wednesday (bogged down with REAL work).
Another note, finally found a pair of 915 trans flanges.... for less than a butt rape price .
Pics/measurements/part numbers to come soon.
Too late for a set of spacers?
Hi Rick, I think i can get 8 sets out of this block i bought. I'll keep you in the loop.
Ok, Axle lengths.
944 auto (short side) = 51cm
914/4 = 51.5cm
944
914
Also, here is the PN of the 915 (sporto) trans flanges you want.
(who is amazed there were no sandals/ugly feet in the pic?)
From your measurements , the 944 axle is a bit short . If you space the stub axle out towards the transmission the short amount , then the axle will not bind . YMMV.........
Jack
Aaron , I'd love to get a set of the 944 axles ( these are for the auto trans ?? What year ?? ) . That way there would be no need of machining the 914 axles and have the full length of the 944 spline on both ends . the spacing thing was an idea just in passing as someone earlier in the this thread mentioned using 944 axles that got into a bind on them. I'm using 911 SC hubcentric wheel hubs and have a choice of using 911 SC cv stub axles or 944 stub axles. The length of the 944 auto axles is very interesting as it would'nt be a big problem of making a spacer to space out the stub to make up for the 4mm difference if one so chose to do so , yes you are right about the 4mm not being a real deal breaker as it would only come into play at full droop or rebound up of the suspension . Please keep updating this thread with your findings , as the use of the 944 auto axles hasn't been covered and would be a great addition to this sticky.MHO.....
Jack
p.s. I think most folks here have made a blood offering to our cars at one time or another , and usually a continuing deal with the car Gods....
944 Axles i got were from ebay from LA Car Dismantlet/TNT Motors. I paid 37 an axle shipped and all the CV's i got are in real good shape.
Basically, you want any year 944, or 85-86 Turbo. 944S/S2 ant 87+ Turbo's used 25 spline axles.
I'm not sure what year the 944 auto axle came out of, or why they are different lengths on each side.
Also, the 944 auto axle is significantly heavier than the 914, for the same length/same splines. I doubt any one breaks axles before they break a cv... so i'd stick with the machined 914/4 axle.
Alright, so my friend got a few sets done in his spare time, and we can crank out a total of 7 sets from the block i bought. I've PM'd the first group of people that I can take their money and mail them a set of spacers. The rest will be done first week of april. Hope no one is in a hurry!
My pal is doing this in his free time for me, sorry for the delay.
So a 914 bearing is 37mm wide.
911 hub is 36mm wide.
951 stub is 6mm wide.
Spacer = 5mm wide.
hub (36mm) + stub (6mm) - spacer (5mm) = 37mm.
Inside edge chamfer to fit 944 stub.
In Place.
Followed Andy's directions step by step, and got a winning product
A buddy machined the /4 axles
and a little cleanup, rubber mallet and some greasy finger nails
Regarding the spacers, i've got a handful (4 more sets), and I'll pm people in the order i received the pm. Sent a couple pairs out already.
Thanks for the writeup andy!
Aaron, I thought you were gonna try using the 944 axles (short side) instead of modifying the -4 ones?
So I finally got my "Sir Andy" style axles in my car. The only hiccup was that the stock 944 cv bolts that came in the rebuild kits were 45mm. They were not long enough to reach through the trans/stub flanges. They only went in a few turns. I bought a set of 55mm cv bolts. They were a little too long and hit the inner side of the trailing arm around the wheel bearing so I trimmed them. On the trans flange side they stuck out probably 5 mm, but there is no interference problems. 50mm bolts may be long enough to have the end of the bolt flush with the back side of the flanges. Sorry if this was discussed here already.
Thank you to Sir Andy and all who posted. I just happen to have a 1986 944 with an automatic sitting behind my shop, already being scavenged for parts.
I was amazed that yet again, the big German Auto parts bin, used interchangeable parts on cars produce years apart.
My 914 project came to me with 914 axles , hubs etc, and 911 wheel flanges. One of the P.O. s had not tightened the wheel flange nut, so one flange is destroyed.
I have purchased a 915 gearbox, so I already have the inner axle flange covered, and needed the axle flange to 'talk' to the same size CV joint. The fact I had the correct flange sitting with a few feet of the 914 still amazes me, not to mention I have the axles and the CV joints from a 944 auto with under 90K miles (read 'unstressed').
Thank you Sir Andy !!
so, are these parts still readily available these days and what price should one expect to pay a pair of the hubs and for a pair of the stub axles?
thanks
jim
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