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Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 09:05 AM

title say it all,

Does anyone know where I can get the 23mm mercedes master cylinder and the longer rod thats needed to use in a 914 or 911?

oh yea cheap is best

Posted by: Jeroen Jan 11 2004, 09:30 AM

Smart Racing is the only place I recall actually advertising it on their website...
Can't remember the price

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: ! Jan 11 2004, 09:41 AM

Isn't it a Mercedes part?

Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 09:41 AM

Smart racings domain name must have expired, www.smartcamber.com is now a live cam

whats the new url?

Posted by: Gary Jan 11 2004, 09:44 AM

http://www.smartracingproducts.com/, although I don't see a 23mm master cylinder.

Posted by: ss6 Jan 11 2004, 11:37 AM

Yep, it's an ATE part for Mercedes, don't know the P/N, and it's WAY too cold to get under the car to "look it up".

Patrick Motorsports can sell you the MC and the rod.

Posted by: d914 Jan 11 2004, 12:08 PM

VCI carries the part look under 930 conversions. goes for about $180-200

Posted by: d914 Jan 11 2004, 12:12 PM

91135501223 $169.00

http://www.vehiclecraft.com/Brakes/vciweb4.htm

down toward the bottom

Posted by: Jeroen Jan 11 2004, 12:47 PM

Hmmm... I'd swear I'd seen it on their site

Anyway, here's the part# for the master cilinder
23mm ATE #3.2123-1003.3 non-boosted m/c

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 01:49 PM

Thanks guys,

I knew VCI had them but being the cheap bastard I am, Im looking for for cheaper sources.

Maybe Brads new venture will be able to get them

any Idea which mercedes truck uses these? I can fab a little rod I suppose



I fell off the wagon............ Magic Hat "Humble Patience" damn good brew!!!

Posted by: thesey914 Jan 11 2004, 02:38 PM

Whats the benefit of a 23mm master cylinder, does it work with a particular brake set-up?

Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 03:57 PM

Big brakes need big MC

Posted by: KenH Jan 11 2004, 04:22 PM

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/dartauto/mascyl.html

$110.00

Ken

Posted by: thesey914 Jan 11 2004, 04:30 PM

Is the 19mm M/C the largest available from the 911 that will fit. Did they go servo assisted in larger sizes?

Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 04:42 PM

yeaaaaaaaaaaa

Thanks Ken!!

thats what Im lookin for !!

edit:

the mc in the 911 went servo assisted, but the dia remained the same, 19 or 21 mm depending on year and type...

930 brakes used 23mm servo assisted,

Im installing either big reds or 930 brakes on my 914....or the 944T calipers I won on ebay....

Ive spoken to Dave @ dart before.............. Ill call him tomorrow

Posted by: steve@ottosvenice.com Jan 11 2004, 04:55 PM

We sell them $105. See our 914 Master Cylinders. Steve

www.ottosvenice.com

Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 05:06 PM

Kewl

a bidding war

Posted by: seanery Jan 11 2004, 06:01 PM

Tim,

Keep us posted on this. I've got 944T's up front and Box's in the rear. I wasn't planning on a m/c that big. I've got the 19 now. I wonder if I'll need more displacement?

Posted by: TimT Jan 11 2004, 06:40 PM

I wont be able to give any feedback till the begining of april, thats when I have my first event.

Everywhere I look they say with big brakes you need the big MC

Im just hoping it warms into the 40's so I can do something on my cars (like get them to my friend heated garage)

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 12 2004, 07:55 AM

no. early 911E and S with alloy calipers used a 20,5mm MC that is now NLA.

the Mercedes MC is not from a truck (well - there might be some that use it) it's from a late-70's/early 80's sedan of some description.

i think the 20,5mm was the largest non-power Porsche MC, but i haven't followed the issue closely and can't say for sure ...

SmartRacingProducts has a kit that supposedly has everything you need.

tip learned from painful experience - install the grommets with metal feed lines on your bench, -then- install the MC and connect the nylon lines...

Posted by: davep Jan 12 2004, 03:19 PM

Rich is correct about the 20mm. It was used on the 69 911S and pretty much everything that used the aluminum "S" caliper except for the 930. I still have a rebuild kit left for mine.

DaveP

Posted by: KenH Jan 12 2004, 04:35 PM

You may have to use the alloy cross member to get the MC to fit.

Throw away the plastic tubes from the reservoir and fit in the "blue hose" from Pelican. Make everthing a LOT easier.

Ken

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 12 2004, 06:38 PM

mine fit fine with the stock 911/914.6 suspension crossmember. i think i had to twist the metal feed tubes to an unusual orientation but it basically fit right in...

Posted by: givory Jan 12 2004, 08:51 PM

Well, I'm going the other way: I was talked into a 23mm MC for my vintage racer with "S" fronts and "M" rears. Now I'm going back to a 19mm. I'm sure it took 600lbs of leg press to stop the car. The upside was I never locked the brakes. [And in my case, I too had to swap to the aluminum cross member to make it fit.] Has anyone else got any experience with this, or do I need more time in the gym??

Gavin

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 12 2004, 09:07 PM

what kind of crossmember did you have before ? /4 or /6 ? i have no experience with 23's and /4's ...

what kind of brake pads were you using ?
i was using factory early 930 pads front.

you were using ventilated disks on all 4 corners ?

i never had a problem with excessive pedal effort, nor did my ex-, a woman small in stature...

IMO/IME, the biggest issue with the 19mm MC was running out of hydraulic capacity once everything got hot in a DE track session. if you don't experience this, the 19 sounds like it'd be a better match for you. most of us didn't automatically pitch the 19mm MC, although for me, there was a certain 'ALA' aspect to it (ALA i'm replacing all this stuff and the brake system is open and i have to bleed everything, i'm gonna put in the end-all and be done with it ...)

i'm not fixated on a certain 'set-up' selection of parts - use what works for you.

Posted by: TimT Jan 12 2004, 09:09 PM

Both my cars have the alloy crossmember, Im working on a 935 type set up using troyer lower control arms and some other oval track stuff. This set up will use a crossmember made from some 4130 1.25 in sq tubing, so clearance should not be a problem.


Does anyone else have experience with the 23mm master? with big brakes?

Posted by: givory Jan 13 2004, 06:39 AM

...though I didn't put it in, I'll assume it's a \4 crossmember. It was only a matter of needing less than a CM more room.



... still on stock-type street pads [German brand - forgot the name]. Our home track [Mosport] is fast and open - easy on brakes. Races are short, often in cool weather. So I was more concerned about having brakes that worked cold on the first lap. Fade was never a problem. But I have ordered Hawk Blues.



...yes. But I will go to solid rears when they wear out, to comply with the vintage spirit!

So maybe it's the street pads? It just seems there should be more pedal travel, and less effort. Fortunately, MC's are cheap - unlike almost everything else to do with this hobby - so I'll try a 19mm and report back.

Thanks,
Gavin



Gavin

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 13 2004, 07:14 AM

no, i don't think so. i don't mind a stiff pedal if the car is slowing down. hard pedal and no braking is a lose-lose situation!

i was wondering if you were on very hard racing pads (the infamous Ferodo DS-11, for instance ...)

soft street pads should give you very good braking, especially on cold rotors. the pad game is completely different than it used to be, so i have no contemporary experience (yet!) with the new exotic composite compounds. but it used to be that the claim to fame of the harder racing pads was that they didn't fade when hot, not that they necessarily stopped better, they'd just give you what they had, all day (at a commensurate cost in rotor life...) i know the new carbon and Kevlar compounds have changed this equation somewhat...

but i remember seeing an interview with a NASCAR crew chief that presented an interesting viewpoint. he was using soft pads for their fade-resistance. turns out their ability to slow the car was lots better than hard pads, so the car could be slowed later (more time on the gas) and harder (outbraking opportunity). that meant the driver could get -off- the brake sooner, and leave more time for them to cool.

if the net energy loss is the same, the more time available to cool the brakes will make them more fade resistant... kind of a win-win situation.

the tradeoff, i'm sure, is higher peak temps, because the net energy loss is -not- the same (you've spent more time on the gas, so yor corner entry speeds should be higher...) and since you're absorbing a lot of energy in a short time, the peak must be higher if the area under the curve remains the same. but the new pad materials seem to permit this.

interesting times indeed...

we'll do the first AX's and DE's on the pads i've got, but i'll be taking a spare set, and i'll need to do some research on what the best compromise pad is for the environment.

Posted by: otto Jan 15 2004, 12:39 PM

Test Photo upload


Attached image(s)

Posted by: davep Jan 15 2004, 01:00 PM

So what, exactly, does this photo show?
Enquiring minds want to know!

Posted by: steve@ottosvenice.com Jan 15 2004, 10:03 PM

Thats our rebuilt caliper done in black and red polymer Mil Spec finish Steve

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 16 2004, 09:10 AM

Hey Steve, Is that a stock 914 caliper? Looks nice.
All you guys out there adding big brakes use caution. Dont forget, big calipers and vented rotors add unsprung weight. If your car is stock with stock wheels and maybe just a plus one size tire your stock brakes should be great. Where you get into trouble is when you start increasing the centrifical mass. (much wider, taller tires with a greater contact patch) a small diameter rotor will require more force applied. Not to slow the sprung weight. That didnt change. The additional force will be needed to counter the spinning mass of the over size tires and wheels. More HP doesnt require more brakes if you just ad more HP. The Brakes are not on the engine flywheel.

flame on guys.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 16 2004, 09:18 AM

the presumption is that the HP will be put to use by making the car go faster.
if the purpose of additional power is -not- to make the car go faster, what is it ?

flame one what ?

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 16 2004, 01:57 PM

80 mph is 80 mph. The added hp will get you to 80 mph faster but your still only going 80 mph. If you havnt changed anything other than your ability to get to 80 mph in a shorter distance there is no need to ad big brakes. In fact because you now can get to speed faster you (= shorter distance) have even more time (= greater distance) to stop. When you start changing the things that increase traction, cornering grip, increasing weight sprung and unsprung, etc. thats when you need to be concerned you've exceeded the engineers design. Unless you just like bigger brakes.

I ment flame on!

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 16 2004, 02:02 PM

i see.

so we don't really need better brakes -or- more power.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 16 2004, 04:53 PM

Add all the hp you can. If your doing it with the stock 4cyl. The stock brakes should be good to go. If you like big brakes with the ability to lock the wheels and slide like your on grease go for it. Look at the simple example of the 4 vs the 6. 6 added hp true but it added wieght, wider tires, heavier suspension. Porsche added the 911 brakes to compensate.

Posted by: seanery Jan 16 2004, 05:14 PM

More speed = More brakes.

It doesn't matter if you have a 110 mph car and drive it at 110 mph all the time you'll wear out your brakes whether it's a 4 or 6. Bigger brakes offer some peace of mind, too.

I'm all for a brake upgrade if circumstances call for it. IMHO any -6 or larger should upgrade brakes in some manner dependant on driving style/use of car.

Posted by: d914 Jan 16 2004, 06:48 PM

has any one used a tilton mc, keeping in mine that I'm NOT the master fabricator.
I have one thats close to the 23 in size with remote res.

Posted by: 0396 Jan 16 2004, 09:01 PM

To all,
Brad is setting me up with a 23 m/c .I should jhave it by next week?

Brad and I have discussed this a few times regarding 19 vs 23 and since I have a full set of Big Reds via Race Technologies, Brad agreed that 23 is the way to go IF one has these big brakes.
There are a few mods to be made...inlet tube / clearance and
a longer rod.

To my knowledge, Brad already has this under control.
Mybe Brad can chim in on this topic.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 16 2004, 09:47 PM

has one bleeder valve. i believe its an m caliper, (i dont see the spacer tho ), or a stock 914 caliper

Posted by: steve@ottosvenice.com Jan 16 2004, 09:49 PM

Its a sample.We can do any caliper. Steve