Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: McMark Mar 8 2008, 01:49 PM

This forum is a great place to share ideas and get some feedback. Over the years we have built up a broad base of 'common knowledge'. The problem with common knowledge is that it can stifle creativity. For example, we just had a thread about large bore four cylinder motors, and it immediately received the standard response (myself included). It was also suggested that the place to talk about new and experimental ideas for these motors is another site.

I'm just worried that people are afraid to post about their new ideas, for fear of being told why it won't work, why they should have done something else, etc. In fact I know of one person who sent out a really cool email about some 914 work he did, but didn't post it here for exactly the reason above.

What's the 914World like from your perspective?

Posted by: Brando Mar 8 2008, 01:56 PM

I'd rather post my idea and find out from someone who has done if before why it will or will not work, rather than to do it, waste the cash, and be out my part(s) and money. I don't think we're stifling creativity - quite the opposite. Chances are most of us don't have the resources to try out one of our "new" ideas, but someone else does. Shared environment, you can see practical results even if you don't have the means.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 8 2008, 02:23 PM

or me personally, this open exchange of ideas regarding motor configuration and technical talk ended here several years ago.

The standard response is boring and old.
Bench engineering, and trying new ideas is why I joined in the first place.

While its nice to know where a certain door knob goes, or how certain trim fits, its loads more fun to design and build a motor.
Now I dont have thousands of motors under my belt, nor do I have a dyno.
I have been building these motors type 1 and type 4 for just shy of 30 years now, and purely for fun, not a business.

With all the new ideas, pauter and others come up with, its alot more fun to try these ideas, adapted to our motors.

Yes, the open exchange of ideas is gone. So are the D-jet guru type discussions that have proven that the system will go beyond 2.0 liters.

Does anyone remember the guy running djet in a 2.4 liter motor, 150hp (proven dyno numbers) on the west coast?? DD found him.

We no longer talk like that. Its sad but true.
At least it seems that way. The other site seems to be stimulating that sort of discussion, but the religious answer keeps popping up.

While I really appreciate the knowledge and effort of vendors, its fun to try. If I want to lay down and go with the norm, the last thing I would do is buy a 914.
Rich

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Mar 8 2008, 02:30 PM

The hard part about our little cars is that with them being as old as they are there really isn't much that has not been tried. I love to hear about what people may be willing to try, but if someone has done it before they should be cautioned as to what to watch out for. For those who just THINK they know it won't work I say piss off. Let the creative juices flow. Only those that know first hand something won't work should talk. I'm sure if Jake listed to everyone who said it can't be done he would have stopped years ago.

Posted by: boxstr Mar 8 2008, 02:35 PM

I think you have to be thick skinned to post here to start with. new idea or any idea at all. People are quick to berate someone for anything that does' not meet with their standards. Lambo doors comes to mind. They are not my cup of tea, but the person did a great job of fabricating.
Why post the usually crap about ricer, etc. It serves no constructive purpose to belittle the work someone has done to the car.
If you can't say some nice , keep it to yourself.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 8 2008, 02:38 PM

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Mar 8 2008, 02:38 PM

That is why I keep my mouth shut about slant noses. It may not be my cup of tea, but anyone CAN appreciate the work that goes into it. At least the people trying these things like our little carsenough to use it as a base to start from. Who knows what they may stumble on.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 8 2008, 02:43 PM

Overall, when it comes to motors, I keep my results to myself because there are to many eyes watching....

Happy to share, but my regional competitors get antsy..

I think the 914 architecture is really cool and that is why it keeps going strong.
subaru and V8 along with huge six motors cannot be dropped in any other car so easily.

But, the creativity regarding type 4 motors is gone. It just is.

Posted by: Rand Mar 8 2008, 02:48 PM

I love the balance between thinking outside the box and learning from what doesn't work.

There may be a balance in between, but I LOVE seeing each end of the spectrum be stretched more and more!!!! That's exactly what it takes to make it outside the common rut.

Posted by: carr914 Mar 8 2008, 02:53 PM

I guess my only beef is that nobody seems to use the search function (I myself find it frustrating - it doesn't really work well) and the same questions are asked over and again. It does seem that people flow in and out of the forum where once it was a ritual.
Also I think the split opened up some people to talk that didn't before. I'm not going to slope-nose, lambo door, V-8, V-6, Rotary, Subie, Audi any of my cars, but I enjoy the thought and effort that goes into these cars.
The other Beef is the lack of caring that we seemed to used to have. If there was a ailing member, sick child, member with legal woes, etc. we used to flock to the cause, but now we CAN'T GET PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR Mrs K.

T.C.

Posted by: dw914er Mar 8 2008, 02:56 PM

well, the creativity is sorta why i posted the drifting video

its a new style that is going on, and it is branching out to new ages, and new cars (like that 993)

a few years from now, aka when i graduate college, i will trey to build a drift oriented 914, just because drifting is hard to do for any car, and mid engine is probably the hardest

but maybe, someone else will be tempted in trying to configure a 914 for drifting

(who knows, it could open up a new world for 914 in motorsports (it hasnt been tried yet, so who knows))


and lambo doors, not my cup of tea, but i think that is pretty cool to do on a 914

i agree with how the 914, with its design, and age, makes it very unique, and so there are many possibilites, that with new technology, we can see being added to out little cars


support creativity!

Posted by: ws91420 Mar 8 2008, 03:07 PM

My response to the big bore four thread was based on his intial question. He did not say he had access to a machine shop, did not say he had built any type 4's before and wanted reliability. To me the reliabilty part alone says a Raby engine. From my understanding if you dont do things right on these engines especially on a big bore you wont get any longevity from it.

My example being a novice to the type IV I rebuilt my engine to stock specs and now I have a engine with probably a bad rod bearing w/ less than 2k miles on it.

Posted by: orthobiz Mar 8 2008, 03:28 PM

The site is great and I may be off base here, but I think our knowledge base is not as well published as it could be. For instance, we could have more articles about options for increasing engine displacement with some common scenarios. This would avoid a question like "what can I do with my 1.8 motor." Or, we could even have separate FAQ pages that list some classic answers to common questions like "how easy is it to fix the hell hole."

It would eliminate some of the repeated questions AND a person who could do some preliminary research and then ask a more "intelligent" question.

Sometimes the search function is funky because people ask questions like "newbie with a question" or "help!" or some other generic unsearchable thing.

Paul

Posted by: Rand Mar 8 2008, 03:51 PM

I agree with that. Use the search before you ask! HOWEVER: I also love the idea that this is a LIVE forum. So instead of some repository where people have to just go research the archives, I love the live interactive thing because it gives us a pulse on what people are doing!

So while I think people should use the search capabilities here, I also don't want to see the rest of us squelch the newbies. I actually enjoy seeing what people are dealing with in real time, and don't mind readdressing old issues again. It keeps the place alive, right? Otherwise we could just publish an end-all encyclopedia and close shop.

No rules! Bring it all!!!!

Posted by: lotus_65 Mar 8 2008, 04:10 PM

well i don't get the results from the search function i hope for, so i've started making pdf's of ones that are of particular interest. that way, if someone asks instead of searching, i can actually add a link instead of saying "oh, someone did that here before", but not add any info on how o find it.

I think the classic threads need to be expanded. some people where building how-to style blogs, more of that would be good. this is an excellent community and a format that will exist for decades if not longer. it would be nice to have the definitive reference library.

Posted by: chris914 Mar 8 2008, 04:20 PM

I really appreciate anyone that takes the time to share the information that they have learned. Even if it is a few simple pictures or a complete HowTo write up. Over the years I have asked and answered fewer questions because of the same reasons given by the others above.

I would like to thank everyone that made their knowledge available and posted it here so it would be helpful for others to use. I have used a lot of it to help me on my car.

When I’m trying to find some information I start with the “Lapuwali Classic Thread Forum” then I use Google search on all of the forums. If I can’t find what I’m looking for then I post a question.

Posted by: swl Mar 8 2008, 05:18 PM

Rand is right that the fun here is the (near) real time interactivity. Having someone pop up and say "I don't mind doing some experimenting on my own to prove you wrong" is really cool. As long as he/she is not scared off by the purveyors of conventional wisdom then we're all good to go. 'Informed decisions' and all that.

This is digressing from the original theme a bit but I find searching is often difficult here. There has been so much discussed over the years that it is hard to find the search terms to bring the list down to something reasonable. I also am finding lately that the +blah +bling +boing doesn't always work as expected.

I appreciate what the admins are doing with the Lapuwali Classic Thread Forum and the coordination of how to tech articles. I wonder though if a well organized wiki might help. Either that or a series of subforums where a good (not classic) thread might be archived in chapters like the haynes manual. I hate fragmented discussion boards - discussion should be in one place. But once it is done it would be great to have a filing system for some of them.

Posted by: drive-ability Mar 8 2008, 05:41 PM

Once my car is done, the funs over and I'll sell it.

Posted by: KaptKaos Mar 8 2008, 05:41 PM

As our little cars go up in value, our pinkies seem to point up more as well.

It's not just the motors, or the ricer tricks or the drifting. It's the onset of snobbery.

While I may not like all aspects of what people do to their cars; those are their cars and they can do with them as they please. Sometimes, from those way out there cars come rare moments of inspiration that really change the way we all do things.

Don't stifle or look down on another's car passion. It's the same as yours but with a little different perspective. We're all in this together. Soon it will be the motorheads versus the rest of the world as our hobby will come under increasing scrutiny from the greenies. We will need each other. We can not afford to think that there is one true faith when it comes to the car hobby.

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 8 2008, 06:35 PM

This is a somewhat natural order of things. Any ideas that stray too far from the middle of the road, the mainstream so to speak will be ridiculed. I found myself doing the same thing Mark is refering to in the post he is refering to. My second post pointed out that I was limiting creativity by telling him he couldn't do what he wanted.
We do a lot of it. A recent post about adding power steering got a rather cute (I admit I laughed) response "Gold's Gym". I was tempted to respond myself but figured I had nothing to add to the OP's discussion and I resisted the temptation to just tell him how foolish it seemed.
I am not sure, as humans anyway, that we can avoid the temptation to regulate the herd to the midstream of thought. But it can't hurt to try.
I for one will try not to tell people they can't. In fact, as one person put it, it's their car they can paint it any color they want.
Trying not to stifle creativity...

Posted by: sww914 Mar 8 2008, 06:58 PM

I'm guilty, to some degree, of what you've suggested, Mark. I'm a conversion snob, a slantnose snob, a Chalon snob, etc. Deep down I think that everyone should only do what I like. I didn't respond to that post because I don't know how reliable a big 4 built from Jake & Charles advancements will be. I'm not saying that I doubt them, just that I have no information. It stands to reason that all of their experimentation and hard work and dedication should yield results far better than we used to get out of 103mm Chinese crap grenades.
I think that you're right and I'm wrong to point my finger at something that I don't like, but I do it out of love for 914's. If I were to distill my snobbery all the way down, nobody should even build a 914 racecar out of fear of ruining the car, and I drive a 914 racecar. Make sense? No.
I still think that the only water in a 914 should be in the windshield washer bottle.

Posted by: brer Mar 8 2008, 07:04 PM

This is actually a private gripe of mine.

Other car forums I've participated and learned from have heathy discussions and lengthy posts on improving and experimenting with their vehicles. The Mercedes Diesel forums almost qualify as a community research project in some cases testing new products (injectors) and even oil tests, like the one guy who vowed to never change his oil again and installed multiple filters and such.

Why do we act differently?

I know there are guys here that know this stuff inside and out.
For whatever reason it appears that its just not cool to share this info in the Porsche community. Maybe the brain trust just doesn't have the time?
Maybe its just about sellin stuff?
Is it a racer thing?

I dunno.
Its cool to do it yourself and take some pride in your hunk o' junk.
Anybody Ever listen to Jonny Cash?

chorus....

I got it one piece at a time
And it didn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is around.

Posted by: dw914er Mar 8 2008, 07:37 PM

i know at the classic car meets i will typically go to, most people receive me and my buddy (with a 74' datsun 260z) pretty well, asking many questions, and proving alot of positive feedback

then there are the american car purists, that will say, dont park your piece of foreign car next to mine (and our cars are pretty clean mind them) (we both have received anti-ricer comments, just because we have foreign cars) (and then one person will do the NARP comment )


but in the end, we all are in the same passion, which is cars, we breathe em, dream em, love em,etc

it doesn't matter what style you prefer, or what kind of car, or racing, in the end, we are all here for the same purpose, our passion for our machines

any idea is worth hearing, because these ideas show a new perspective on our common hobby

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 8 2008, 08:30 PM

I'm with ya.

The Lambo doors comes to mind as well. Poor guy. To be slammed by Alphy of all people, Mr. Titanium, 130mph 1.7L, go around a corner parts are fallen-off, I like bang'n single moms that know how to cook, TVA wreck'n Ne'er do well... give me a break. There was more creativity in that guys 4 posts than I've seen from the bragadocious Logan in two years.

And frankly why would anyone give a shit if someone wants a massive -4 or a massive -6? They both cost massive bucks. I'm a six guy through and through but I would cry seriously hard, laughing my ass off, watching a stock -4 with a driver smoke the living shit out of a -6 with a wallet at the next autocross course (and yes; I've seen it happen).

Posted by: BMXerror Mar 8 2008, 08:36 PM

Well, the short answer 'Yes' with an 'F'... the long answer 'no' with a 'but'.

Mark D.

Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 8 2008, 08:43 PM

"stiffling creativity"

I have my doubts that anyone can stop a fervent mind. And, I have doubts that we are affecting creativity. Yeppir, some (like me) are died-in-the-wool preservationists. We aso recognize the very cool & creatve things that people have come up with to do with 914's!

Look, these are not classic Ferraris. 914's were throw-away cars from the start because they were cheap. But, the numbers are getting smaller. And that means that speculators are invading. So, some of us try to foment the "originality' thing, because prices are rising.

Guess what? The "engineers" that are creating one-offs are doing us a favor. Each 914 that is re-configured is one lost from the list, making the originals/restoreds more valuable.

Now, don't take this negatively - and I mean this. You creative guys/engineers produce wonderful extracts of the 914 (most of the time). I totally respect the engineering & costs associated with rendering these beasts.

I totally appreciate the things that most of you have done. May not be my bent, but appreciate them nonetheless.

If people like me are stiffling - I apologize. Do what you want to do!
Pat

Posted by: SGB Mar 8 2008, 08:54 PM

Well this thread has covered a lot.
Re: Search and common probs etc- perhaps we could start a thread of FSTs (Frequently searched topics) where we start adding particularly successfull searches on an ever expanding list of links. Doezat make sense?
Regarding people and hurt feelings- its true we can get a little, um, terse, but I hope everyone is grown up enough to realize the whole world ain't like them. I like a little discourse occaisionaly, as long as it has legitimate -like technical- basis. Name calling is pointlesss, but theory is open to question and people are open to theorize too- sort of a built in, but conflicting, process.

I definitely like to see folks pushing the boundaries. I bet that LAmbo door setup would actually make anyone look twice and grin in actual use. But I disagree that the forum doesn't usually embrace the experimental. I mean, we are all over wierd frikkin 914s. I think evryone gets pissy sometimes though, and the whole BBS is built on momentum of wanting to respond to a comment, so pissy coments begat more and/or reactive comments etc. But I welcome all you wierdos into my house at the end of evry day and often the morning too, and would IRL as well.

Rock on!

Posted by: twoskinuts Mar 8 2008, 09:02 PM

Stifling maybe alittle more discouraging for the person to post an idea then anything! Why share if people are going to put down your hard work that your proud of that the point of posting it! To help some one who is interested in it you may not be if not don't read it why read something your not interested in or give negative feed back on! An to prove apoint after I post my lambo's I had a couple member PM me one said I had a big set to cut up my car & a bigger set to show everybody he has lambo's also just won't post them an I asked him to so how many more out there doing the same thing!

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 8 2008, 09:04 PM

I'll elaborate from my point of view on Monday...

Posted by: alpha434 Mar 8 2008, 09:18 PM

Let's see.... The first time I got reamed by you assholes was for suggesting the use of heims instead of turbo tie rod joints. Turbo tie rods being the "end-all be-all porsche upgrade."

And I'm still holding a grudge about it. What was really so bad about heim joints? Airplanes use them well... everywhere. Every worthwile race car uses them in the suspension. Why wouldn't a heim hold up under cornering? You can buy them rated to a frickin' MILLION psi!

And don't forget those titanium connecting rods. After I made a couple sets (they're in engines now) I went and worked for a company and made them exclusively for a couple of months. Yeah. It was REALLY impossible. Not ti-ti-ti ti TANIUM!!! That stuff is SCARY! Easier to machine than steel.

Na. You guys don't stifle creativity. You smash it into the ground. Nobody's allowed to have a new idea around here. But it doesn't bother me so much. I just stopped posting in the garage.

Posted by: roadster fan Mar 8 2008, 09:39 PM

I think some replies to posts are harsh but most threads have a balance of feedback. Many times, individuals post negative comments without showing any respect to the original poster (i.e. not my cup of tea but, not my thing but, not my favorite style but, etc.)

IMHO, you can't stifle REAL creativity. Those people who have a passion will create what they like regardless of the critics. There are three types of people in this world: those that watch what happens, those that make things happen, and those that WONDER what happened. I think the critics fall in the first and last category. If you are in the arena participating I think you are much less apt to criticize another participant. It is easy to sit on the sideline and spew criticism when you will never enter the game.

That being said, many here have extensive experience with these cars and I believe benefit the community when they provide feedback and advice.

In summary, if you can post with deference to the original poster I think the community would prosper. Just my .02

Oh yeah, and I am now gonna have a beer if you didn't notice

Jim

Posted by: 911quest Mar 8 2008, 10:46 PM

I guess I'm an old hot rodder at heart F**K anyone who tells me I can't do something to a car the only one that's going to prove me wrong is myself by atleast trying all my ideas..

Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 8 2008, 11:00 PM

A person that was kind of a mother figure for a week or so when I was young told me that too.

Posted by: biosurfer1 Mar 8 2008, 11:27 PM

I have never really gotten into anything heated with someone here, partly because its retarded to fight on the intenet, but mostly because I don't care. 4 vs. 6...who cares? NARP vs. "real porsche"...who cares?? Someone who thinks a 6 is better than a 4 will NEVER be persuaded otherwise, and vice versa, so why waste the typing time. To the guys who dont think my 914's a real porsche, thats fine. I didn't buy my car for that guy, and its a real car to me which is all that matters.

I'm reading Alpha's post about the TI stuff and I'm wondering why he holds a grudge? To the people who didn't think it would work, fine, ignore them and talk with the guys who do. I really don't see it as a personal attack or you're right and they are wrong.... but why waste one more second worrying about anyone who disagrees, 50 threads later my guess is that both will still think the same thing.

Stifling Creativity? maybe its just me but if that is what you think someone is doing, ignore them!

Posted by: jd74914 Mar 9 2008, 12:12 AM

I don't think stifling creativity is the right concept. I do that that conepts people have get shot down when they seem to have no idea what is going on. Not to sound arrogant (since I really don't know much about type IVs), but IMHO posts like the 'massive' one get shot down because often the creators seem to come up with a goal that seems unrealistic and everyone wants to top them before a huge expenditure ends in failure.

Many ideas are shot down because we (collectively) don't want other people wasting their time. In that case, Steven didn't mention that he had ever built an engine before, or that he had access to a machine shot, or that he really had any idea what was going on. In that case, it just seems like a recipe for failure as there is no knowledge implied, nor any background information given.

Sorry Steven, I don't mean to jump on your post; it is simply most prevalent in my recent memory.

When ideas are presented in a clear and well though out (or at least seemingly well thought out way) I think that people are more accepting and genuinely interested in the results. I know I am.

I know that people should be able to try anything they want, but sometimes it just seems like the ideas thrown out are missing a large dose of reality. As in engine building, you can have power, long life, or cost effectiveness. At most you can get 2/3, and sometimes only 1/3 of that list. I think that as a group people tend to be steered away from projects when it seems like they don't have a grasp of concepts like that.

Continuing on the engine building trend, Richard (IDK his sn) posted of ridiculous TIV builds using rather cost effective mixes of components. His posts were way out there (as far as creativity goes), but he was received with great anticipation by many people because of this innovation. I think what was most interesting about his posts was the fact that he came in with a game plan, and had thought the project through thoroughly.

People don't get that kind of reception when they waltz in with no apparent knowledge and then ask what to do in order to accomplish some crazy goal.

I personally am guilty of trying to turn people away from projects that (in my mind) they have not thought about and really seem to be looking for a shopping list of parts to complete them. I think that a large part of the problem grows from the fact that alot of us do not know each other, and in that do not know each other's strengths/weaknesses/experiences. When someone asks if they can do something and doesn't give nay background information their ideas tend to get squashed.

That said certain thread's responses do confuse me. Why did so many people jump on the power steering rack guy? That seemed like a very valid question.

Posted by: scotty b Mar 9 2008, 09:16 AM

From my point of view and I think this is probably how Jake and Eric and a few others here may feel.

Some of us do this work for a living. We know and have persued our career/passion to the highest degree. When others come on posting about this idea and that idea, we may not be too responsive to the idea because we know it is not the BEST way to go about it. For me, yeah you guys can scuff your paint and lay some Nason down on it. BUT if you ask my opinion in private I will tell you that is going to make for a shitty job that most likely will peel off in 3-4 years. YOU might be completely happy with your job though. I try to refrain from making personal comments on others body and paint work because I realize they have a lot of pride in the job they did, no matter how poor it is to my eyes. I think Jake is just a little less forgiving when it comes to commenting on others work.

We are passionate about doing things the absolute best way it can be done. We know what a better and longer lasting job it will be when done our way.
I would LOVE to be able to build a 2270 using cheaper parts. Jakes kits are unbdoubtedly the BEST way to go but I just can't afford it. Much like many of you can't afford one of my, Rick's or Perry's restorations. BUT you guys also need to realize you get what you pay for. I have seen several threads ( one in particular recently ) bashing a body shop for their crappy work. WELL did you spend 1500 on that repair or did you spend 5000 on the repair? Same goes for your engine.

I have pretty much stopped replying to posts about body, paint, and welding. It's just futile. Everyone here that bought a 500.00 welder knows more than I do despite my 12 certifications. I can also tell you I know for a fact there are guys here who are better welders than I am who don't respond. I could site a thread from a couple years ago when someone bashed a particular stick rod claiming it to be junk. Problem wasn't the rod it, was the user,that rod is one that needs to be manipulated. It is for a specific type of joint. But since he couldn't run it like it was a 7018 it is automatically a POS. THAT is the gist of my post in a nutshell.

I enjoy the articles on odd engine builds. Whatever happend to the person building the 2.2 or 2.3 using everything from Rabbit rods to Chevy bearings?I agree the standard response is " Buy on of Jakes kits " GREAT idea IF you can afford it. But Jake got to where he is by experimenting and by God if someone here can builkd a better and cheaper mousetrap we should support him just as we have, and will support Jake.


Oh and BTW[/color] who is using PAT'S computer ?

Posted by: 356 Mar 9 2008, 09:30 AM

Try posting on the 356 Registry. If I hear "proper and correct" one more time I'm gonna hurl. I enjoyed my Concour Weenie Rustoration of my 58A but four wheel drum brakes and 60 HP was just too.....geez, what's the word for it.....let's just go with OLD!!!!

However the just under 40K I got for it, made the 10 month ordeal a bit more liveable....geez, there is more money than brains in this world....

In conclusion....Naw, you can post any idea on this list and always get a naysayer....it's a crowning event when you do it, report on it and the previous poster either says...OK, ya did it or just STFU.....

I mean...the phrase...ya can't turbo a 914....was created and disproved....

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 9 2008, 10:37 AM

We all have our point of view or context through which we see things. In order to allow others to have ideas and act out the idea we have to accept their context.

My concern is that some of us, me too, have a habit of jumping up and telling people they can't do something rather than helping them develop the idea. Think Tanks operate on this principle. A subject is brought forward and thoughts are collected. Everyone respectfully discusses the subject. Respectfully means the difference between saying "don't be a dipshit! If you build that it will be a grenade!" and saying "have you considered the possibility that ultra thin cast iron pistons might create a lot of heat they can't dissipate?"

A lot of it is just guys BSing in the garage and not intended to be stifling but it has that effect. Think like us or suffer the consequences.

Posted by: brer Mar 9 2008, 11:22 AM

Thats why this forum doesn't get my vote for people who want to learn to build their own motor or learn about engines. This forum supports Jake and isn't the place for that guy to discuss building a big 4. Period.

The people who know wont bother and we all know that jake doesn't give out info because its his business. Nothing wrong with that, he's a business man. I do know for a fact that there are more talented people than scotty or jake who can and will discuss their work... and those are the places I go to talk about those subjects.

Crap, half the time I cant even remember what screen name or password is for which stupid forum.

Nothing wrong with not helping. Your knowledge, your choice. Not every pro can teach and not every teacher can perform at the highest level of their field.

Nothing wrong with a stale garage that has no technical vibe either.
Its your community, do with it what you want.

Posted by: TC.356 Mar 9 2008, 11:52 AM

You ARE a bunch of snobs . . . . worse than the 356 guys even 'cause the cars aren't worth nearly as much, but the attitudes are almost the same.

Don't believe me?

OK, then. Everyone tell me how cool my car is gonna be when it's done.

It'll end up lookin' just like THIS . . .


Come on . . . tell you love it . . . show me I'm wrong.

Posted by: 356 Mar 9 2008, 11:53 AM

Hmmm, this forum "supports Jake".

I wouldn't say that....he simply posts and he gets comments yea or nay. No one that I know of extends him any more courtesy that anyone else gets.

Frankly I think his stuff is very pricey and I've yet to see anyone with an engine with high (street) miles report back in. If that has happened please point it out to me. You may have noticed or didn't care that I took a 10 month break and missed some of the drivel...err advertising...errr, posts....

I'm getting older and I don't race anymore so I could care less about 4 cylinder race motors.....I'm a six kinda guy.

As to the Rabbit rod and Chevy "piston" type IV motor...I built one of those and posted on it back on the old Renegade website....it ran in the Rocket just before I did the 3.0 six conversion.

I think it was DDDD that said it wouldn't work.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Mar 9 2008, 02:25 PM

People are always having 4 vs 6. Jake gets some support, but he also gets slammed by some of us six guys. I think all mechanics need to be at least a little thick skinned. We are a group that cares about other members, but as I recall I flip those I care most about pleanty of sh!t from time to time. If you simply stop because someone is challenging you on it you didn't truely have the motivation to complete it all to the end in the beginning. Either that or you need to toughen up a little.

Posted by: dw914er Mar 9 2008, 03:13 PM

for the rat rod 914, if you build it, i want to see it (but that front end needs to at least that high up, otherwise it doesnt count lol)

Posted by: turbo914v8 Mar 9 2008, 04:00 PM

Sorry I did not support you regarding the lambo doors by posting pic's of my lambo door conversion, but I learned a long time ago that perhaps I think too far out of the box, I have posted a few things, ideas, and projects regarding my 914 that were totally over the top and got bashed hard for it. From that I have learned that its better to keep my wild ideas pretty much to my self, only involving those who are genuinely interested or who may perhaps be undertaking something similar to what I have already done and may benefit from my knowledge. This way at least I don’t get shit on. Don’t get me wrong I love this community and spend a lot of time helping where I can or just lurking. Hopefully one day 914 owners like me with Frankenstein bastard creations will be able to post to our hearts content without fear having our hard work put down or severely bashed, after all we put just as much time and money into our 914 vision as the purist do.

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 9 2008, 05:05 PM

Paul is one of the nicest and smartest guys out there. His stuff has only been shown once and he got bashed for doing it. Yes it's radical, Paul is a full blown custom guy, doesn't matter what he owns it still would be over the top custom. There are many things he does that could easily be adapted to the "norm" but he doesn't post for fear of being bashed.
Our loss.

Mike914 won't post because of being bashed on the old renegade site.
Our loss.

I mostly lurk now as I'm tired of the hi-po /4 bashers, Jake and others can fight that battle, I'm bored with it.
Oh well....

Posted by: 356 Mar 9 2008, 05:14 PM

Why be afraid of posting? I post my drivel, stir it up a bit and then sit back and watch the peanut gallery fight it out. Why do ya think I had all those crazy avatars at the beginning of the 914 sites?

Funny thing....the biggest bitcher about my avatars ended up starting the long running "hot chicks" thread in OT/Sandbox.....and now I'm being accused of censoring the over the top pics....

Times change....Paul should come back and not worry about the idjuts. Sift thru the crap and find the treasures......

Information is what you make of it. I was a convert to turbo charging air cooled motors. There is probably someone out there that will dispute it, but I'm pretty sure I coined the phrase, "you can't turbo a 914"....of course I drank quite a bit back then.....

I know I did nickname Captain Crusty....anyways I digress.....

I'm picking up a 74 2.0 tomorrow. I'm thinking of flaring it and going with wide chromies and hubcaps....

Posted by: geniusanthony Mar 9 2008, 05:54 PM

I believe that this question was posed at the right time Mark. Before the no turning back point we have sort of an eye opener. I did not check the views count to confirm this before I viewed this thread to confirm but I am sure everyone has read this at least once.

Short version: yes, maybe

Long version:it is entirely possible that there is an "aura" of shut out or stifle the new guys with big aspirations. Granted this is the internet and for the most part doesn't REALLY matter, all the flaming, whatever I don't personally get worked up about it. In the same vein, we are all grown ass men aged probably early-mid twenties on. We can all take a flaming. Unless somebody is in danger of
1)hurting themselves , we're pretty good at picking up on inadequet jackstands
or
2)about to make a catatrophic mistake of some sort, what that is I have no idea.

we can sit back, lend advice from our own life experiences, be friendly, etc...

And to my thread neighbor Mike to my immediate top somewhere: I hope you do build a wide chromie hubcappy flared car that makes purists wanna explode, It'll match my grey silver orange almost creamsicly thing that I will finish when I get to "Not I-wack" WA state.
No B.s> I would love to see it and you do good work so why the hell not.

Take care guys , Theres prolly a good quote for this somewhere....

Posted by: 914-8 Mar 9 2008, 06:02 PM

It seems to me of all the things the 914 has suffered through for the last 35 years, a lack of "creativity" being applied to them isn't one of them!

Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 9 2008, 08:00 PM

Hear Hear!

I'm not a "creative" person. Infact, I'm locked in a time warp. But, I have seen, gagged & appreciated the 914 renditions I've seen in the last 30+ years.

Let the artisans vent their spleens! I may not sign up for it, but love to see them!
Pat

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Mar 9 2008, 08:06 PM

914World is the best combo of technical, loose events, and new 914 news around. Creative people are what move society forward, and they must have strong resolve to thwart attacks from the establishment whenever they express their differentness.

I know I hold back from posting because I'm just a hobby mechanic and most of my mini-problems work themselves out after some research here and more common sense thinkin. I try to reduce the short-lived problem->solution redundancy, and post when I do cool stuff like custom air filter and battery mount.

The past year or so has seen several new and similar 914 forums and it is possible that is has resulted in less engine talk here. I think the cheap re-build threads are sweet and I personally look forward to more tips + tricks to make my 914 better.

Where is the heck is that thread showing the wiring mods to make the side-markers blink with the turn signal??? I've given up searching for it

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2008, 08:49 PM

yes. no. maybe. sometimes.

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2008, 08:57 PM

this one uses heim joints instead of standard tie rods ...
Andy

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 9 2008, 08:58 PM

You "really" need to understand the clown that slammed you. Ask him to post some of his handy work...

Take some time to search his drivel. Zero substance and some flatout bragadocious lies.

Congrats on all the "VERY" hard work getting those done right. True talent.

I'm with Pat (what have you done with Pat BTW?) create until your hearts content. I'm creating a GT clone... that's "my way".

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2008, 08:59 PM

paul who? what? ury? you're kidding, right?
Andy

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 9 2008, 09:10 PM

I think the first time you got reamed by this asshole is for lying about how fast you were going in your stock teener. Out came the actual numbers (drag, gear ratios, hp etc.) showing virtual impossibility (unless you were dropped out of a C-5) . Back into mommy's womb you crawled.

Shut us assholes up. Put them "o-n y-o-u-r c-a-r" and show us some actual pictures ya whiney little bitch.

You slam the shit out of the Lambo door guy but all you've produced is bullshit rhetoric... as you can tell, I'm holding a grudge about that.

That's not how we treat newbie’s here.

Posted by: Borderline Mar 9 2008, 10:13 PM

yeah, good luck with that!!

I think both creativity and communications are being stifled. I, for one, have my own way of setting up the rocker geometry and have been thinking of posting, but it is pretty technical, and why should I waste my time knowing I will be shot down. I have also developed my laser wheel alignment and am very happy with it....I know strings are better.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Mar 9 2008, 10:31 PM

Eric

As much as I DO respect you and your work I have to wonder why you are being so brash towards Chris. HE IS 21. He has done well for himself, and with that come a little bit of arogance and cockiness. Sometimes a lot. However, remember that he is still 21.Life will teach him his lessons eventually as it does for most. Sure he should not have bashed the Lambo doors, or anything else. We all have our own opinions and sometimes come across way wrong. He has a lot of learning to do, and maybe we as his elders could be more of an example to him rather than just write him off.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Mar 9 2008, 10:40 PM

I say post it. I like strings better, but hearing your method did shine light on another way. I enjoyed reading it. Remember, just because someone does it different does not make them right. Hell, when I worked at a garage I could do brakes as fast as some of the master techs but my way was way different, and cleaner, than theirs. Was one right and the other wrong? No, just different. Now, if someone finds a problem that could be bad it would be good to know for everyone to avoid in the future. I am the type of person who has very little filter on what I say and don't really care what people think of me.That being said, I do like to help people and learn from them if I can. We all can benefit from good and bad suggestions. as a cool little community we should feel free to post everything to stir the creative juices. Sometimes saying "it can't be done" is the best motivation to prove them wrong

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2008, 11:27 PM

ok guys, timeout ...

you need to put things in perspective. with almost 8000 members, no matter what you post, there will most likely always be someone in the mix who doesn't like it!

you post, you get 10 replies and one of them is telling you something you don't want to hear and you take that one response and make it the sole reason for not coming here anymore?



i mean, come on, please ...


bashing someone for no reason is stupid, but stating your personal opinion about something should not get everybody's panties in a bunch either.
i've had several people tell me that they don't like the 916 frontend on my car. should i not post here anymore? after all, somebody just told me they didn't like my car! on a public forum with 8000 members! what a outrage!

btw. that was my feeble attempt in sarcasm ...


ya'all need to grow a thicker skin and not take everything said here so dam personal.


nobody should be afraid to post about what they are doing and how they are doing it and nobody should be afraid to post if they dislike something they see.

Andy

Posted by: pete-stevers Mar 10 2008, 12:05 AM

i miss this.....
been a long time since we had such a cool "love" thread.....
you guys are a bunch of pansy ass winners
now get to bed....
and when you get up in the am.......
after a couple of cups of jo.....
look back at the drivel you posted the nite before....
you would think we all drove winey-cheesy-911s

...........................
but none the less
it is good entertainment
and it keeps me coming back for more

Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 10 2008, 06:20 AM

Turbo Paul (turbo914v8)...post right above mine.

Posted by: racerx9146 Mar 10 2008, 09:28 AM

I can comment that I rarely post due to the responses I see people get. Its a free world and people are entitled to do/say their own thing. However I think we all have a vested interest in seeing our little community stay vibrant and active. To accomplish that you need more pro than con. In other words we need to remember to keep the criticisms constructive.

I love reading this forum but I wish some people could be a little more "positive" in their comments. In the real world (swap meets, PCA events and other non-internet gatherings) 914 fans i talk to sometimes grimace when I mention 914world or 914 club. I think I know why...

John Daron

Posted by: marks914 Mar 10 2008, 11:17 AM

Just rememeber that you are building your car for you, not the guy in his underwear on the board with his rusted in half car sitting behind the barn.

Mark

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 10 2008, 11:19 AM

OK... Here is my dollars worth.

I'll limit my post to the "MassIVe engine, because I could give a damn less about complaining about what anyone does with any other aspect of their car.

When I started my promotion of the TIV engine it was 1997. The engine was an ugly duckling and while some shops (like FAT Performance) had been able to understand and manipulate the engine most others hadn't. The engine was filled with mystery and because of that it was impossible for a novice to correctly configure one that wasn't a hot running, oil leaking, valve seat dropping pig.

At that point I saw huge potential in the engine as I had good luck with them in the past and knew that with modern communication (internet) that the engines could be revitalized and info shared that would make them what they hadn't been for the past 30 years.

The Type 1 and 911 engines were mega successful because there was tons of reference for builders and the engine was more understood because more people had manipulated it. I wanted that for the Type 4 and from that point forward I have been working to reduce the guesswork associated with the manipulation of the Type 4 engine and working to get it used in more vehicles.

Creativity:
Its expensive and the TIV is absolutely intolerant to half assed efforts. If you give this engine a chance it will kick you in the balls until you puke and it will do it over and over again! Part of what I have done may have hurt creativity, but that has been necessary to get the engine where it is today, somewhere it has never been before.

The Type 4 is it's own beast. 911, TI and Chevy knowledge won't do it's creators any good at all. The worst efforts I have seen with this engine have come from those treating the engine "like" something else. Many say "Its just an engine", those people make the mistakes and don't do their homework. They lose their ass when it blows up and teaches them who the boss really is. I see this weekly!

So in a way this thread make me very happy because I feel that a bit of creativity stifling has been necessary to get a solid foundation set for the engine and show what it is capable of with the proper approach and preparation.

That being said I have always assumed the role of the experimental guinea pig. I have spent the money and taken the time to produce insane projects that have changed the minds of many and has proven to others that this engine can be used for extreme power, remain reliable and have decent longevity. I do not feel that EVERY enthusiast should have to assume a role such as mine, but they did prior to my efforts with this engine.

Ten years ago a post like this would not have existed and I would not be able to walk in on a Monday morning having just stomped the shit out of 28 Type 1 powered vehicles at the biggest aircooled HP event on the east coast with two TIV powered vehicles, walking away with near 200 RWHP N/A on 89 octane pump gas and 206 lb/ft of torque with ungodly fuel efficiency.

Now, that being said my video series will continue to help people create these engines in a proven manner and will help set foundations for "creativity" to enter back into the world of the "Big 4"...

BUT the need for super creativity is reduced when you can bolt together a 200HP engine and not have to guess about anything, not timing, not jetting and not exhaust... (and have a video walk you through the whole experience step by step)

Ten years ago that was a pipe dream. I have had to piss off lots of people to make it a successful effort and I will continue to push the limits and break hearts.

Years ago when I started with the TIV I heard a different set of gripes about a lack of performance parts, no HP and that they blew up all the time.. Today I am getting criticized for making things too standardized and straight forward and thats the biggest compliment I have had in a long, long time.

In closing I will say that in times past I have shared more information about how and why we do things. I have had this information used against me by an unscrupulous person and since that day I haven't shared nearly as much as I once did. This info cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to acquire and years of my life to apply. I will not give that to anyone and will quickly set you straight if you believe that I OWE it to YOU.

Posted by: twoskinuts Mar 10 2008, 12:07 PM

Paul I used a quote from your PM to me to make a point that people are out there that don't post because of bashing. An maybe there would be less of us custom guys out there lurking if it wasn't going on & I didn't mention an names. I join here in 05 an lurked a long time before I post anything an when I posted my doors I kind of knew it was going to happen but it is discouraging.

Posted by: Rand Mar 10 2008, 12:13 PM

Dan, I really just want to encourage you to ignore the bashers. This is a huge group of people. Please don't let those few discourage you! For every basher, there's a thousand of us who love what you're doing. And the kinds of things you are doing rank high on the cool scale. Please, for the rest of us, ignore the bashers and keep sharing!!!! Who cares what they think? More of us want to see what you do next!

Posted by: yenningComity Mar 10 2008, 12:29 PM

I say this site as well as another similar site do. Jake is a good guy, and you have to respect what he does. I have yet to see him say an idea cannot be done unless he has a good reason why not. There are more than a few members on here and elsewhere in the 914 community that seem to take his word as gospel and bash anyone that do not follow his ideas.

I ran across XXXXX forum a month or two ago and discovered that people are using mercedes, chevy, ford, etc etc parts in type fours.... and actually make them work. I have yet to see someone post about even so much as trying something new with an engine off here in awhile. I know that when I have my car running and look to modify it, this will be the last place I dare talk about it.

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 10 2008, 12:36 PM

I have built engines with all those off the wall parts and know what tools and skills are needed to do so successfully. In times past, before there were actual performance parts for the TIV we HAD to use these parts to make big power and the hassles that people went through were huge and usually the engines were built with huge compromises that overcame their effectiveness.

I will not recommend or share information that will lead someone down a road to failure or hard ship. When these people do fail it really stifles the creativity and thats what gave this engine such a bad rap for so long.

Posted by: jimkelly Mar 10 2008, 02:52 PM

it seems to me that it is an indisputable FACT that Mr. Raby is one of the most knowledgeable type4 engine builders/enhancers on our planet at this point in time - besides having a combustion-chamber-load of knowledge, he sells - as i understand it - in kit form - with guarentees - several reliable versions of type four engine kits - from mild to wild - as they say.

ayway - enough about the water cooled hater : )

who here runs a type4 that puts out more than 120hp - that did not refer to JR to achieve this accomplishment? I would like to hear all the stories.

thanks

jim

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 10 2008, 02:54 PM

that pretty much sums it up ...

Posted by: JPB Mar 10 2008, 03:24 PM

I have them Hot WV mags of Jake doing his thing, ya baby! As mentioned before, "Jakes engines are the cheapest way to go."

One who makes no mistake is one who doesn't learn and there is no greater failure than one who fails to try.


True creative people run against the grain and are not sidetracked from their vision. We didn't give them the recognition they needed so they just stopped posting do to a lack of positive attention or feedback. They will create somewhere else don't you worry.


I personaly thank all those who crapped on my ideas and hope the comments continue, good or bad. These blue nuts are for all those beeeehotches who can't take a freekin joke.

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Mar 10 2008, 03:27 PM

I've seen an engine builder who posts here completely "poo poo" ideas, only to see it surface in his offerings down the road.

He is here to make money. Period. He's not your buddy, and he's not here for "intellectual" pursuits.

My recommendation, is if you want to collaborate with somebody on this board, use the board to build a relationship, but do all the collaboration offline.

Posted by: Beanie Boy Mar 10 2008, 03:32 PM

I also called a poster that makes muffs. Sketched out an idea and sent him inquiries to make it...said it wouldn't work or he didn't wanna do it or something....weenie then starts making it and selling it on the assdragger board. I said put a cat where the middle muff is....can't do it....

Triad muffler can eat my shorts....I also still doan like PMS....what a perfect name for that idjut's company....

Anyways, got my new 74...check my build thread....will be buying and selling stuff.

Posted by: Rand Mar 10 2008, 03:38 PM

Nice JPB. Makes me want to revise my last answer to something a little more harsh.

F*ck the lame ass 'bashers!' Instead of retreating into non-post status, POST ALL THE MORE!!! It really does piss me off that some lame critics can actually stifle the artists who are ACTUALLY DOING STUFF. WTF? Why be weak? BUCK UP and grow some thick hide!!!! Stop hiding what you are doing out of fear of some critic! Sluff them off, share what you are DOING, and you just might be surprised at the support you will get around here!!! SHOW IT!

[/rant]

Posted by: dw914er Mar 10 2008, 03:50 PM

i think it is time to move on


basically, here is my summary

lets keep the comments constructive, and if it isnt your style, then go on, its not my cup of tea, but....

also remember, some people here have done alot to thier cars, or to the 914s themselves (for instance, raby is right, the type 4 is a unique motor, so it is wise to figure out what other people have experienced, ect)


now, let us go back to giving new ideas, or support, or advice, and get back to our 914's


and for the over 21 crowd, or anyone with a friend over 21, lets get some



anyways, happy motoring, and keep bringing on the new threads, or advice
(after all, we are all here for the 914)




cheers,

Ben Matlock

(914 nut, just like everyone else here)

Posted by: Rand Mar 10 2008, 03:53 PM

Word.

Posted by: JPB Mar 10 2008, 04:03 PM

YES YES YES!!!!! You are the CREATOR and the world is your URINAAAAAL!!! I am certain and will probably be backed that my ideas are by far inferior to yours any day!! Crap, I haven't even taken and engine appart yet!

Its a firght of the fittest out there and the question is, are YOU fit to fight?

Buuuuuuuuuurp


By the way, Jake Raby is successful because he is a creative kick ass!!!

Posted by: dw914er Mar 10 2008, 04:53 PM

when i got the battery for my car last time, the guy at autozone did not believe my name is ben matlock

(but hey, andy griffen as an old man still got the chicks at ben matlock, so i think that's a good sign)

lol

thats my meaningless, random experience with my name


(it is technically benjamin though)

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Mar 10 2008, 06:30 PM

I can't be the only one, surely.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 10 2008, 06:33 PM

First off, It happens to sit IN the barn...not behind it...

I think that I for one build my car for my own pleasure and my own creative experience. While this motor has been around for a long time, and there have been many current, past and future, board members that have built these motors, Jake stands out as the most memorable.

Lets try to remember a few things.
The 914/4 was raced during its first few years by several serious teams.
The motor has been stretch to its limits many times.
Germanlook comes to mind...
While all of that is true, Jake has managed to convince certain companies to step into this market not because he is a quiet guy...but cause he is Jake.
That just benefits all of us..all of us get access to cheaper parts for the motor.
Its supply and demand.

As far as creativity is concerned, I do miss the old days, but those days are gone, and those guys have stopped posting...oh well.

I have RL things to deal with...its spring and warm again...time to go build a motor that will make you puke...and make me smile alot...

Rich

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 10 2008, 06:46 PM

Remember:
Nothing ever stays the same and thats certainly been the case with the 914/ TIV world in the past 4-5 years.

Without the efforts of the network that I started a decade ago things like Nickies would only be available to the 911 and 356 crowd, the same would hold true with exhaust as guys would still be trying to make headers good for 135 HP function on 200 HP engines and roller cam equipped twin plug engines would still be a pipe dream...

None of this has been done by any one individual, but I will take the credit as the guys that got everyone working together to create the developments that we have today and I consider that my biggest accomplishment.

Five short years ago it was impossible for someone to bolt together a real 200 HP engine from off the shelf parts...

I was never here to make friends, because a guy like me pretty much only appreciates results.. I have made lots of friends and a few enemies along the way and have loved every minute of it!

Posted by: scotty b Mar 10 2008, 06:49 PM

How did this turn into another Jake thread? He wasn't the only one referenced in the beginning but it seems alot here think he was the source of the thread. Only Mark knows for sure but I imagine his intent was about the bashing in general. We all know who here has a rep for being a dick and who doesn't. Problem is the new guy or the guy who only checks in from time to time doesn't know. It is therefore up to the rest of us to inform him.her and to give him/her support and help that some won't.

Eric I am with you 100 % Nuff said

As for myself I think my statement about not replying to threads was misunderstood. I have NO problem advising anyone who contacts me directly on a paint,bodywork or even welding subject. I have no problem sharing my experience, I just quit replying to threads on the subjects because they were overrun with less than stellar info. I used to try and straighten some aspects out but it seemed completely futile so I stopped. I have seen time and time again the same questions, ( looking to buy a welder, which one ? ) the same answers most of which are based on said posters personal experience ( I got a Mller 125 and love it...I got a Miller 125 and it's a P.O.S.) etc. etc. etc .......

Hell when it all blows up we can still blame Canada




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 10 2008, 06:58 PM

This became a Jake thread after several emails and even a phone call that interrupted my weekend on the subject. Yep- that pissed me off.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is being targeted by most of the smart assed comments on the thread. There isn't much I can't stand more than someone making snide remarks that doesn't have the balls to direct them at who they want to.

Posted by: r_towle Mar 10 2008, 07:06 PM

I still will build a whopper while using Djet.
Did you know that Mercedes made a 4.8 liter 8 cylinder Djet motor...
What is half of 4.8 liter???
cool injectors, same size....

I will also build a flat eight..out or two fours..and I may turbo it just cause.

I think, and I commented, that the guy who did the lambo doors has real skills.
Awesome work.
Titanium rods...I love that idea...not something I could afford though.
Titanium is used all the time in Aerospace, so its certainly the right material.
I cant remember all the shit I forgot...

Oh, I personally like Sir Andy's car...molded bumpers are cool.
Now it has a 3.6 liter...
No bashing allowed. Get out of your chair, DO SOMETHING, then share it so we can bash it..its only fair.
Bash away.

Do all you guys remember how inspirational it was to watch Rick build his 918 with the 928 motor...if you have not read his amazing saga....go look it up..search for Alien..
We were all inspired to do something, to create..
Now we just bitch...
Get back to supporting each other.
I read a comment earlier in this thread by someone who likes to bash peoples ideas...it said "I have never even opened a motor"
I just shake my head wondering who is really making these bashing comments.
When (if it bothered me) it happens, just ask the person who is bashing or stifling creativity to take a few pics of their car and prove it...show us your creativity or dont comment negatively...

Rick and Boxer said it the right way.
If you have nothing good to say, shut up.

Some of the comments and tone of this place are being driven by a select few people that really need to walk away from the computer, BUY a welder, LEARN how a set of calipers works. SET UP valve geometry...with YOUR HANDS...and stop reading about it..
Trust me, we will help, we will advise, hell we will even COME OVER and help for real, no charge...just like we used to do!!!!

I went over a buds house the other night, why....he asked.
I made him try first...then we all coached him...in the end, he just needed someone to push him along the learning curve...I just happen to be a little bit further down the road of learning than him on this particular thing...

That is what we do here..we support, we learn, we help, we eat, we drink..we burp.. and for some of us...pink bunny ears are donned as a sign of respect for the world...
Rich

Posted by: orange914 Mar 10 2008, 07:10 PM

i've received nothing BUT good info. and feedback that has been a great help. i've attempted to contribute to the articles as many of you all have. i was once told the only dumb question you could ask is the one not asked. trust me if you guys can handle the "stupid" questions i've been asking, (with grace and maybe a snicker) then no one should worry about asking questions!!


not siding but i spend most of my 914 info. time here verses the "other site" becouse i find a more established and knowlegable crowd. (not dissin' the other 914 site at all)

Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 10 2008, 07:33 PM

No one's done anything with me! I still maintain my "purist" viewpoint, but also realize that there are others who's abominations I lust for! My 914 is NOT going to this year's Parade because of some personal problems. It will be put back on the road for pleasure, with some non-purist attachments. Colorado next year - maybe, but unlikely.

I'm planning on marketing my '73 CIS T this year, which will allow me to buy a 914 that is, shall we say, less than pure! I'm still a purist, but fully understand the pleasures out there for something unique, if not original.

There have been many times that I've naysay'd particular, umm, derivations of 914's. But, I still abide by creativity. Don't quite understand or condone some iterations, but that's just me. I still respect the engineering involved (in most cases)!

I have my purist 914. Time to have some fun! Don't expect me to go nuts though. No clones. No Raby motors. Maybe a conversion - probably a conversion.

Remember, I'm a retired accountant. Conservatism is the only thing I know.

Pat

Posted by: dw914er Mar 10 2008, 08:03 PM

scott, that picture is priceless



hey, it is almost spring
(in california, it is gorgeous)


i think it is time to quit bickering

i will remind everyone, we are all here for the 914, either as a hobby (Like most of us), to a job (liker raby or the dr from aa), but its still for the 914

we love our car, even if they dont seem to love us all the time (i think my car is stubborn)


so, lets quit the fuss, take of the tops (unless you have a steel roof) and go back to some fun

and afterwards, don't forget the

Posted by: championgt1 Mar 10 2008, 08:13 PM

I became a member here at the end of January 07. I had owned my first 914 for about only 3 days, and I knew nothing about it other than I had always wanted one and I finally had it.

I joined this site to learn more about my car and come here for questions when I needed some answers. Not only have my questions been answered when asked but I have also met some great people along the way. I have been able to purchase parts from local guys that not only gave me a great deal but also said,"just call me if you need anything else." Hell rhodyguy(kevin) spent an entire saturday over at my house in the cold ass garage to help me with my car, and I would do the same. Again I am a so called "newbie" to the entire 914 thing but I learn something everytime I log on.

Looking at peoples creations and projects is one of the best parts about this site, and I say if those people get flung crap about it just shrug it off and continue on as you were.

I believe a truely creative person can not be stopped just because someone does not agree with or like what they are doing.

Now lets all have a

Posted by: Rand Mar 10 2008, 08:16 PM

Dammit Jack, be careful or you will ruin Kevin's reputation.

Crap, I still need to post my front air-dam/spoiler project. It's killer and I owe major kudos to the rhodyguy.

Posted by: Rand Mar 10 2008, 08:28 PM

You know, another perspective is... Let the bitches expose themselves. I mean, you post what you are doing - they post their meaningless dribble.... YOU WIN! The majority will always encourage the creativity of the doers. Geez, I'm sounding like a broken record.

Posted by: pffft Mar 10 2008, 08:32 PM

And you should see his new dash board!!!

patrick

Posted by: marks914 Mar 10 2008, 08:45 PM

Remember, input is one thing and being downright mean is another.
If I had listened to others, I would not have done several production cars, SEMA Cars, had my own car in Hot Rod magazines and had worked on a contender for the Riddeler this year.
Do what you want, and take what you need form the input, you are doing it for you

Mark

Posted by: championgt1 Mar 10 2008, 08:51 PM

I also owe rhodyguy big.



Well said!

Posted by: Spoke Mar 10 2008, 08:51 PM

To the title: Are We Stifling Creativity; From my point of view, creativity may not be stifled by critical responses, just open communication stifled. This has been my experience on 914 boards.

One of my first posts was a tongue-in-cheek solution to my leaky 1.7L tired POS in my 71.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=20489&hl=

In 2004 I had no interest in fixing leaks in an engine I knew I didn't want to work on so I did the skid plate to catch oil drips. Took quite a beating with comments. Got a few laughs which was the goal of the thread. The negative comments from this thread kept me from posting for a long time.

BTW, fast forward to 2008, the same engine is still there, still running good, hasn't dripped a single drop of oil anywhere, and hasn't blown up. Actually a blow up would have been welcome: What better reason to put a new engine in than the old one blew up.

On last note to Jake: Please don't stop posting on this site. I enjoy seeing the magic you do with these engines and one day I hope to have one of your engines in my car.

Posted by: 749142 Mar 10 2008, 09:01 PM

for those any of us on either side,

i say stop your bitchin. if you dont like it thats cool just say you dont but dont be an ass about it. and if somebody wants to do something creative just for the hell of let em. im planning on setting up a custom made blower out of the type 4 cooling fan. maybe it wont work maybe it will be good for more hp who knows. but for the hell of creative im doing it. come on you haters bring on your stupid bitchin. but for those who dont do anything or just take the beaten path shut the hell up. i want to do it my way. now if you have had a bad experience doing something that i may be embarking on tell me and i will consider the problem and then i will figure how to get around it. but we all need to be more supportive in creativity. theres always a chance of failing but its always worth the shot. if those of us want to take that chance then dont nay say dammit. now let the creativness begin. and for those who are afraid of posting for fear of bashing screw the bashers post anyways and piss them off.
steven garis

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Mar 10 2008, 10:06 PM

Shoot, I just wish you were within a 100 miles of me. I know engines fair and people who know them very well. Body work and such I would love to learn from someone that is as knowledgable as you.

Posted by: chris914 Mar 11 2008, 12:12 AM

In general an open forum is a great tool for fostering creativity. It allows for a place where people can exchange ideas and gain insight to others viewpoints. Just having this thread is a very good example of that.

Exchanging ideas and understanding others allows us to form new thoughts that we may have not considered before.

Take the following example: One person sees a 914 and says it’s orange and another person sees it and says it’s red. Now you can say that one person is right or wrong. But another view might be is why does each person see it as a certain color (I’m always surprised when people say my 72 914 is red when it is orange).

Just like this thread, everyone may see it as one way or another, and right or wrong, just the exchange of ideas and thoughts is good and helps foster a more creative environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity#Creativity_in_various_contexts

And from Bill Murray in "Meatballs"

“That’s just the attitude we don’t need, Phil. Sure, Mohawk has beaten us 12 years in a row. Sure, they’re terrific athletes. They’ve got the best equipment that money can buy. Hell, every team they’re sending over here has their own personal masseuse. Not masseur. Masseuse. But, it doesn’t matter. Do you know that every Mohawk competitor has electrocardiogram, blood and urine tests every 48 hours to see if there’s any change in his physical condition. Do you know that they use the most sophisticated training methods from the Soviet Union, East and West Germany, and the newest Olympic power, Trinidad Tobago. But, it doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t matter! I tell you it just doesn’t matter! It just doesn’t matter! Even...and even if we win...if we win... Ha! Even if we win. Even if we play so far over our heads that our noses bleed for a week to ten days. Even if God in Heaven above comes down and points His hand at our side of the field. Even if everyman woman and child held hands together and prayed for us to win. It just wouldn’t matter because all the really good looking girls would still go out with the guy from Mohawk cause they’ve got all the money. It just doesn’t matter if we win or we lose. It just doesn’t matter! It just doesn’t matter! It just doesn't matter!”

Posted by: ThinAir Mar 11 2008, 02:07 AM

I've been pretty quiet here for a long time. It's not because I've been the victim of any of the things described, but just life being busy. But I have noticed a change in tone over time since the big "split" and it seems to me that there are far fewer technical discussions than I used to see.

I really appreciate that Mark asked the question because it is so critically important that we make everyone feel welcome here and that we all share as much as we can. I understand those with business interests who feel they must be somewhat restrictive, but even so we're all better off the more we share.

While the last 5 pages of debate was going on, I was having a blast on the Route 66 Ramble... driving my 2.0L 914/4 at 100 a couple of times and cruising at 95 on some great roads. The smile on my face was possible because the folks on this board were willing to answer my dumb questions with patience so that I could build a reliable "stock" Type IV that is serving my needs very well.

Build it or buy it, I don't care. Just drive the thing and enjoy it!

Posted by: euro911 Mar 11 2008, 02:56 AM

Yaaaah

Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 11 2008, 07:18 AM

Think about this:
When someone posts something with an engine that I know is heading them in the wrong direction (from my experience) it would be unfair for me NOT to say something to them. Sure it might embarass them or piss them off, but it might save an engine and a few thousand bucks... Does anyone know how many times I have seen pics of heads posted here that were just rebuilt and noted cracks in them that no one saw with their own eyes in person??? Thats just one example...

When one of these engines fails, no matter why or how it gives the opposition and TIV critics one more thing to bitch about. I'l do anything to keep those things from occuring and if that means pissing someone off- so be it.

Posted by: jimkelly Mar 11 2008, 07:33 AM

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=81587

Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 11 2008, 11:02 AM

Yes Jim, This IS the thread that gave birth to this thread...

Posted by: TC.356 Mar 11 2008, 11:25 AM

"This became a Jake thread after several emails and even a phone call that interrupted my weekend on the subject. Yep- that pissed me off."

OK then . . . let's all agree to make it a ME thread. Tell me what you think of ME. Ask ME questions about engines that relate directly to ME.



I have lots of technical info that I too refuse to share with any body, ask ME about it.

From now on . . . it's all about ME. Oh, and nothing pisses me off, I just won't bother readin' the emails. "Cause when you're ME, that's how it's done.

Posted by: Brando Mar 11 2008, 11:53 AM

Okay, after so many posts... what exactly was the original gripe about?

With as many "creative" people on here (look at the vendors section), I fail to see why there's so. How did it go from "someone doesn't like what I did" to "we're stifling creativity!". You took it too personal, and we all should know by now to grow a bit thicker foreskin when posting publicly.

As Andy said, with as many people as we have here you are guaranteed to get at least 1 person who doesn't like whatever about whatever. If you take their opinion personal, that's on you. But if they can supply tried and proven technical fact (and most times I see CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM ON HOW TO MAKE IT BETTER) you're welcome to turn it into a technical discussion to improve your said creation. This is what happens to those who don't recoil due to hurt feelings.

So chipper up, buttercup.

Posted by: JPB Mar 11 2008, 12:49 PM

Scott don't post pictures of yourself in that outfit anymore, it turns me on! OOOoops, was that taking it personal? ZING!!!!

Posted by: turbo914v8 Mar 11 2008, 10:21 PM

For the record as an owner/creator of a bastard 914, I am not afraid to post, nor does my creativity suffer from negative feed back. My point is just simply I have in the past posted ideas and plans for my monster 914 and was met with negative comments and resistance. So for myself I decided that the work is hard enough without having to put up with and defend my self from others and their negative comments. Sure if I can help some one I will and do often, however mostly through PM's avoiding posting directly to the board.

Yes my new dash board is great. It lives in my room on my dresser. My wife is not impressed. Lol.

Sir Andy knows exactly who I am. LMFAO.

Posted by: JPB Mar 12 2008, 06:49 PM

Spoken like a true CREATOR not bent by little words from little minds.


Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff!

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 12 2008, 07:01 PM

NO SHIT? That means it's all about ME! I'm impressed by ME!

I runit Marks "fun"....his creative sales pitch.......that was easy. Is he that sensitive or just an air head?

Over the years I've seen nothing that will stifle the creativity of 914 folk. May it always be so.

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 8 2008, 06:48 PM

Paul

I've been away for awhile, did you post pics of your car?

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 8 2008, 07:00 PM

Mark et al,

From my perspective, I love members showing their ideas and craftsmanship. Like most people, I love positive feedback but any kind is better than none at all. Viewpoints are many and each are unique and valuable. Occasionally it affects me but usually it doesn't. I spend way too much time online but it's sort of research and marketing...

Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 8 2008, 07:26 PM

Nope no pictures yet! I was warned about putting all that horse power in a 914 with no cage did not listen ripped the chasse in half now I am starting from ground 0 with a new chasse and one of Racer Chris complete custom cages. Progress is at a snails pace now. Married with two kids. Need I say more?

Posted by: SGB Aug 8 2008, 11:11 PM

Dayum. This thread is like group therapy.

I guess I'm just always thinking the slaps and jabs are just sarcam. I get pretty sarcastic too, and hope i din't piss anyone off.

I see several opportunities missed to encourage "out-of-box" thinking that I guess we will never know about, though.

I personally thank Jake for sharing what he has told us. It certainly has helped my car. I'm confident he does not point out impending failure to make someone feel bad, but to avoid the failure. He may somewhat overstate things sometimes.

OK!

Thats all. "Play ball."

Posted by: DBCooper Aug 9 2008, 07:25 AM

Alright then, let's play ball. Back to the question, are we stifling creativity? The answer is yes, no question. Without naming names I've seen this over and over again. Good boards where people can't wait to get home after work to log on, share new ideas, learn something, where there's a magic combination of discovery and camaraderie. Then those boards eventually attract and are ruined by self-centered, self-appointed, aggressive and loud mouthed salesmen. Instead of providing a place for friendly give and take where lots of different industry people can meet and share, the boards change, those good honest people are shouted off, and without them you're left with a never ending mono-toned infomercial.

Over and over again.

Really too bad.

Posted by: SGB Aug 9 2008, 09:42 AM

Once again,

OK.
I think it is up to us to establish and maintain the proper tone. I'm going to take every chance I see to encourage stretching the boundaries. It certainly has not "all been done before".

Posted by: PRS914-6 Aug 9 2008, 10:41 AM

In a forum this size with one topic and tons of different opinions this is bound to be a problem.....only if you let it. For instance, I have a Porsche emblem on my hood and a rear reflector. Lot of people scorn that. Who cares! I like it and it's my car.

Point is try to learn something here, it's an awesome encyclopedia of trials and errors. Try to give something here too. If it helped one person out of 8000 then you did a kind gesture. Somebody disagreeing with your opinion is a natural part of life and happens everywhere around you, not just here. If you are not posting because you don't want a negative reply, YOU are stifling the board and most likely your own life, not the other way around.....C'mon, toughen up and be bold! You can't please everyone and sometimes anyone.

Bottom line? Read my signature. "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it"

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 9 2008, 12:50 PM

'ya pansies!!!

So you spent all those hours doing some crazy stuff to your car and when you're done you post pictures in a forum with OVER 8000 MEMBERS and one or two OUT OF 8000 don't like what you did and you take the opinions of those TWO as an excuse to crawl into a little ball and pout?

I don't like Lambo doors on a 914 and i'm not afraid to say so. But it's YOUR car. YOU have to like it. It's YOURS, not mine ...

If you can't take some heat, then yes, don't post your pics here. However, if you stand behind your work, show it to us!
Some will like it, some will not. That's how life works fellas, you should have learned that by now ...

You guys really need to Cowgirl up ...
Andy


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Aug 9 2008, 01:36 PM

Most car guys I have grown up around are rather narrow minded assholes. If they didn't think it could be done they voiced it strongly. 99% of the time they were wrong. There are many guys on here that have done things many have said you can't do. Take note from them and give it a try.

Posted by: brer Aug 9 2008, 06:06 PM

if some kid posts asking a question and your only answer is to stop thinking and buy XXXX parts from XXXX vendor then you're stifling creativity.

if some kid posts his attempt at a repair or part they made and you slag him and his effort then you're stifling creativity.

if you're a loud mouth who blames everyone else for not having "thick skin" then you're stifling creativity.



At the end of the day any Joe can open his checkbook and buy a hot motor, but a real car guy builds it himself and takes whatever lumps he gets along the way. Maybe he screws up, maybe he gives up. DOES NOT MATTER.

What matters is the challenge and this forum (or others like it) are the single most valuable resource available.


Mechanical knowledge and understanding of their cars.
Repair and restoration.
Fraternity and a little escape from reality now and then.


This isn't accomplished with challenges and pissing matches or the running off of members who are not "thick skinned". You say toughen up, I say think before you speak.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 9 2008, 06:21 PM

Sure, but that goes both ways.

And so far, all the complaining i hear is from people who thought that their idea, no matter how crazy or out there, would receive a 100% warm welcome from each and every active member on this forum.

If that is your idea of "think before you speak" then you live in a dream world.

If i had a buck for every time someone said that they hated my 916 front bumper, i'd have enough money to buy a new one.
Should that keep me from posting here?


Honestly, i don't get it. If you do something to your car that is somewhat out of the ordinary, how could you possibly expect 100% positive feedback?
That's almost impossible with just 5 guys shooting it in your garage, let alone 8000+ guys on a web forum.

If luke warm or negative feedback stiffles your creativity, you should probably stick to collecting stamps.


I actually enjoy seeing people do stuff to their cars, conventional or otherwise. I just don't get the "Say something nice or shut up" attitude ...
Andy

Posted by: PRS914-6 Aug 9 2008, 07:11 PM

In concept I totally agree...... In a perfect world we would all encourage each other no matter how silly, repulsive or different. I'm sorry it's unfortunately just not that way in our world.

In reality it will never happen. Some people are rude, obnoxious, like to argue and are control freaks. You can't control that no matter how much we plea for it. However, you CAN recognize that this behavior is out of your control and choose to not let it bother you. That's where being thick skinned has it's payoff. It's simply a method of dealing with these type personalities since you can't stop them. You can't force people to change to the better but you can choose to ignore them......It's a simple matter of dealing with the action instead of trying to change people. It's a choice we all have....and it's much easier

Posted by: DBCooper Aug 9 2008, 07:28 PM

Yeah, that's called maturity. Some have it, others don't.

Now when I see idiocy I remind myself how lucky we are that one of the traits that all assholes share is that they're pretty eager to identify themselves. And as soon as you know who they are it's pretty easy to avoid them. Here, I can demonstrate:

Andy your car SUCKS.

See that? Now you can add me to your "idiot" filter and your life will be significantly improved.

Posted by: ericread Aug 9 2008, 07:30 PM

See. It's small minded comments like this that hurt this BBS and all of us. The correst response should have been:

"Andy, I hate your front bumper!."

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 9 2008, 08:07 PM

Geee, you guys are harsh!

I think i need to stay away from this site for a while ...
Andy

Posted by: orange914 Aug 9 2008, 08:58 PM

we're all into the same thing here. myself like many here have dealt with conflict here and have been all the better for it. i don't agree with the blatant @$$hole but the "everybody gets a student of the month" thing helps no one.

throw out your ideas and take the praises and/or (constructive) critisizm. creativeness will flurish (<--spelling?)

mike

oh yeah i hate your bumper too just kidding

Posted by: plymouth37 Aug 9 2008, 09:33 PM

I think its pretty obvious that you guys are stifling the hell out of my creativity...

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 9 2008, 10:02 PM

No lack of creativity here.
The second attachment may be a bit stifling tho.
No "massives" here......or nobody would admit to it.

Andrew did make a comeback on the 2nd day to take 914 TTOD for the day.


Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 9 2008, 10:37 PM

A few months ago when this post was popular I had a chat with a couple of the older members of the forum on this topic. We agreed on some points that not just this forum, but lots of others also can stifle creativity by streamlining modifications.

Its no secret that lots of people find it necessary to indirectly label me a "salesman", and in some cases they are correct. I really wish they wouldn't be so evasive with their criticism and just come out and say what they feel directly. I would certainly respect their criticism a hell of a lot more, and them as individuals...

It is very difficult to be an Enthusiast in the same world that you reside as a Professional. This is true not only with BBS like this one, but also with attending events. Thats because it is impossible to have a weekend escape where I can be just like anyone else, without all the BS to go with it.

For many years I found it entertaining to help people on forums, of course that was before there were so many small splinter groups that had formed. A decade or so ago the Type 4 was very misunderstood and people were really open to hearing about effective ways to do certain procedures, or make solid modifications that would not leave them without a clue when they didn't work out. As information grew and people shared their own findings things changed.. My idea was to standardize things as much as possible and allow people to start from base lines that were known to be effective. If they had success with those, then they would build confidence and be able to add their own creativity.. In lots of ways it was effective.

In 2005 when I opened my retail store, things really changed.. Thats because until that point I didn't sell any parts and only used the parts we made in our complete engines. As soon as these modified parts were available our interface with the public increased and then the situation for me changed on the forums... Being here was no longer fun, it was a stressful part of life that I no longer cared to experience.

Now, I'll keep the rest of this short... (or will try to)

You haven't seen me very active here over the past few weeks and thats for several reasons. The main one being the fact that I could see that my presence was doing no one any favors, not like in the past when people looked up to solid information, R&D and someone that would take flack for saying what they felt and had the experience (and data) to back it up.

Today I only make a few posts a week and just browse the boards once daily to see if my products have been mentioned here and need any support. I no longer spend hours at a time reading posts, or battling with people about six conversions or Subaru transplants. More than likely, unless my name or products are brought up, you might go a month without seeing me here and thats exactly what many people, and this forum need (and want).

I work with with machines and don't have a lot of interactivity with others. This is one thing that has made me very effective at what we have created here, but few people can understand what really makes me tick. I know/knew that but a lot of times I really didn't put that into perspective and my actions pissed people off, but I hope that every one of those people learned something from what I had said, or perhaps it made them scratch their head enough to do a google search on the topic.

Today I have re-aligned the way we are supporting these engines and I simply no longer have the desire to share these things on forums. Thats largely due to all the drama that comes from it and because I simply don't have the time. Between my normal work load at the shop being doubled with the Boxster and 996 development I have also been producing instructional videos and our online Radio show (podcast). My Company has grown and is requiring a lot more of my dedication to keep that growth positive as I have added new Employees and new divisions as well.

So, I have had my own forums since 2006 and they have been a very effective means for those who want to interact with me to do so. There we can provide product support, answer questions and can do so in an area that is paid for solely by us, not dependent upon any "club" support or etc.

We are continuing to advance the TIV engine and work to provide instruction to those who appreciate it and need it. This will continue in the form of DVDs as well as "Aircooled University" which will begin next year and offer 3-4 day workshops on different aspects of the TIV engine, right here at Aircooled Heaven.

I have been missing the camaraderie of forums like this one, but certainly not the dramatic nonsense that sometimes comes with that....

I didn't mean for this post to be an advertisement and really over all these years I haven't meant to be anything more than any of you who are reading what I am writing here, right now... Thats certainly not what occurred and for that I do apologize.

So, you certainly won't need to worry about my posts stifling creativity here any longer. I'll stop in when I have to (because someone brought us up), otherwise you can find me over in my cave, where I belong :-)

When you live, eat, breathe and excrete the work that you do and have the same hobby, it is REALLY damn hard not to promote it. Sorry guys.

Posted by: DBCooper Aug 9 2008, 10:43 PM

You're not going anywhere, Jake. The last time you left this forum it was because 914 owners were all "cheapskates". Those were your words, no one else's. How long did that last?

Posted by: ericread Aug 9 2008, 11:43 PM

Come on now, you know I'm kidding. In fact if you hadn't of mentioned it, I would have never brought up your bumper...

But Jake is correct. There is a BIG difference in the level of creativity for someone like me (a weekend novice wrench at best) and a professional engineering enterprise. I enjoy helping other novices in not making the same mistakes I made, and in learning the correct way to perform maintenance.

Obviously I'm not adding engineering excellence or moving creativity up a notch in the eyes of those whom have been performing this type of work for years. It only seems creative to me because of my incredible lack of knowledge/experience.

For those whom are actually being creative, that is, pushing the envelope of the 914, my posts may seem contrite, silly and probably a waste of their time. However, these people are making our engines perfrom better than new, making our brakes stop us more efficiently, make our fuel lines more safe, and our tubs more secure. In many cases, it would seem to be foolish for these people to share their closest secrets about how they do what they do. They have spent considerable time and money in being creative, I hold no ill will that they want make a profit from this work.

So is creativity being stifled here? NO! It is just the case that the people that provide new and improved products in support of our cars have matured into businesses. And as a business matures, it stops telling everyone around it how it does things. It concentrates on performing better and more consistant service. And it asks for a fair return for it's products.

So the question is; Would you rather return to the earlier days where there were no businesses engineering new and improved products for our cars? Or can you accept the fact that access to this knowledge is not free?

I, for one, an delighted that there are businesses that work hard to provide replacement and upgraded parts for our 35 year old cars.

Eric Read

Posted by: DBCooper Aug 9 2008, 11:51 PM

OK, now I'm confused. Andy was first, so is Jake pulling an Andy, or is Andy pulling a Jake?

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 9 2008, 11:53 PM

See, I never said I was leaving because I am not.. (as you can see, I am still here)

Just seriously changing the amount of time I spend on forums and the way I engage in conversations.

Arguing and debating takes lots of energy, something I need as much of as possible as we march forward with new journeys with new people and a totally new engine platform.

Posted by: Todd Enlund Aug 10 2008, 12:35 AM

The simple fact that you are a vendor will lead some to believe that everything that you post is intended to increase your business. Then, there are some who truly appreciate the knowledge that you share.

I think that it's great that we have you, George, Len, Dave, Craig, Mark, Mark, Mark, and all the others who care enough about our cars to do what they can to keep them alive, here and available to share opinions or facts.

It's all up to you to decide how much you can tolerate

Posted by: euro911 Aug 10 2008, 01:49 AM

I've done many 'outside of the box' modifications with Harleys over the years, and got a mixed-bag of comments on them. For the most part, I got good comments, but the reality is, you just can't please everybody. I've always thought that one's car (or bike, or song sheet) is just a blank canvas for you to create your own masterpiece on.

I try to keep my P-cars pretty original, mainly because most of them were purchased as investments, however, there ARE some modifications I plan to make on at least one of my 914's.

Some people might like the mods I'm planning, and others won't, but I'm the person who will reap the benefits from my accomplishments. If they find favor among the multitudes, well, that's just icing on the cake.

Creativity differs with the individual. Not everybody will like or accept ideas you bring forth, but the key thing here is: Don't let it wear you down. Do what you want to do.


Some of you older guys might remember these words:

"You know that some people are different, now ain't that a crying shame. Now wouldn't it be a real drag, if we were all the same". Savoy Brown

Posted by: DBCooper Aug 10 2008, 07:28 AM

So this drama is all just because you intend to post less?


Mark, the wisdom of Savoy Brown? That's down, and I'm thoroughly impressed.

Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 10 2008, 07:37 AM

Its not that I don’t agree with you here being thick skinned does have its perks, but you forgot another alternative that we can control. Just don’t post. It’s far easier that way. The creativity is not lost we are still doing our own crazy stuff, however its this forum and its members that will suffer for those few individuals that think they know it all. Me personally I don’t care what any one says. I do what I want to my teen. I just don’t have the time to be bullied or to argue with other members that don’t get it. I still share my accomplishments and horrible failures with other members on this board, the individuals I consider my friends. I post SOME ideas and thoughts in an effort to help others but past experiences have shown me that I need to stop there in order to fort the know it all.

Posted by: brer Aug 10 2008, 02:29 PM

sorry andy. you're always fair and I respect your opinion.
I'm not complaining, but adding a probably unneccessary observation. You've got a pretty strong core of posters here and I suppose its not really an issue how it is. Inclusive/exclusive or whatever is cool and I'm just taking a personal interest which I shouldn't do really.

Posted by: r_towle Aug 10 2008, 03:57 PM

Jake, thank you.

DBCooper,,whoever you are...you seem to be looking for a fight.
Go out and drive your car at an Autox...its actually fun.

Andy, I personally love your bumper, and its even better now that you molded it into the fenders.


I think this thread has run its course.

Rich

Posted by: grantsfo Aug 10 2008, 07:44 PM

Plenty of creativity and complete acceptance at that event of anything from rabbit rod T4's, 3.6 liter sixes, twin plug small bore sixes, even a Massive powered cars were welcomed! Sixes and small displacement home grown T4's ruled the fast times. ...The Massive not so much. It was cool to see all the great variations going against each other.

I think perhaps limiting of creativity is made up in some peoples heads. I think as long as you pick your platform and do proper amount of research anything is good. I actually found negative comments about my six conversion to help me guide project out of a couple pitfalls - didnt stop my creativity with small bore twin plug conversion even after people said it was stupid to go that direction. Seems to me some with big Bore T4 dreams in their heads just dont like to hear about the issues in going into uncharted waters with big displacement motors. Nothing wrong with big T4 but they do have drawbacks . Subarus are awesome. V8's are tough to pull off well but they are fun! In my opinion sixes are most flexible in meeting all needs of the 914 owner and they are time tested.

I didnt let anyone on any of the silly 914 boards ever stop my plans but I did listen to all feedback as one additional reference point during my conversion. I think variety of opinions is greatest service to the community. I'd worry about somone who would allow a negative 914 message board post to stop their plans? Thats just weird? Most of the true 914 and Porsche powerplant experts I have met dont ever post on these boards!

As far as creativity being limited I have seen posts on triple rotor 20b motor car being built, V6's, lots of V8's, Subi's, lots of sixes and even a couple brave and wealthy souls doing big T4 conversions.