Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 03:48 PM

Hello, my name is Jeff and I'm the proud owner of a 73 914, 2.0 liter. I've had the car for awhile now and it has been nothing but fun and an absolute joy to own and drive.

I've been driving the car consistantly since the snow has melted and it has given me no problems........until now.

After driving the car all weekend I go to start the car yesterday, and nothing, it will not turn over. It is NOT the battery, it's new, I boosted it just to make sure. I have power everywhere....gauges, radio, lights etc.

Assuming it's an electrical issue I removed the fuse box to get a better look. While trying to start it I receive a "clicking" noise from the relay (black round one), far left, drivers side. I swapped out that relay for another one, it did not help.

I'm stumped. Occasionally I've had to "turn the key hard" to get it to turn over. I'm thinking that this once occasional problem has become a permanent problem, but I could be wrong.

I was thinking of possibly removing the steering colomn cover to gain access to the ignition switch. It could be the problem. Is this difficult to do?

Hopefully my issue is just a 914 idiosyncrassy and was hoping to get some advice or suggestions from you guys.

Any input greatly appreciated.

Jeff

Posted by: messix May 27 2008, 04:18 PM

get a volt meter and get under the car and have some one turn the key to start while you check to see if there is 12volts at the small wire at the top of the starter solnoid, if no then you can start checking into the ignition switch.

Posted by: ConeDodger May 27 2008, 04:19 PM

If you want them to turn over you have to start training them when they are really young. The best that you can hope for at this late date is that it will sit and stay and balance well on jackstands...

There is a plastic part inside the ignition switch that will go bad from time to time. Replacing it is not that difficult but it does require a bit of disassembly... I would bet on that. It is white plastic with plug spades sticking out of it. The electrical plug from the harness plugs into it. Available from many sources...

People will talk smack about George at Automobile Atlanta but his 700 tech tips book is totally on the money... You would have found that answer in it...

Posted by: 736conver May 27 2008, 04:20 PM

Sounds like multiple problems.

One you have a ignition switch going bad. Doesnt sound like the starting problem though. None the less get it fixed

Two you either have a bad battery or bad power connections. How are your grounds.

Just because the battery is new doesnt mean its still good. have it load tested at your FLAPS.

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 04:29 PM

I'm almost positive that it's not the battery. Remember I boosted the car just to make sure. I drove it all weekend, started it dozens of times with no issues.

The ignition switch sounds like it could be the problem. How difficult is the ignition switch to remove?

Here goes embarassing question number 1.........what side of the car is the starter on?

Posted by: ConeDodger May 27 2008, 04:42 PM

Starter is on the driver side. You can reach it without jacking the car with a little dexterity.

Drop your lower dash to replace the ignition switch. You should be able to see the process to disassemble from there. Been there, done that twice... (different 914's)

Posted by: So.Cal.914 May 27 2008, 04:57 PM

You can train it with one of these.

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 04:57 PM

Drop the lower dash...I'm confused. Isn't the igntion switch in the steering column? Shouldn't I be able to take the cover off the steering column to access the switch. Maybe what I think the ignition switch is and what it actually is, are 2 different things.

Is there any way to essentially "hotwire" the car to see if it is indeed the ignition switch.

Posted by: Jeffs9146 May 27 2008, 05:13 PM

1. Place the car in neutral
2. Turn the key to the ON possition
3. Climb under the car and Jump the starter with a screw driver

If the car turns over and starts you need to check your Ignition Switch.
If it turns over but no spark it is your Ignition Switch
If nothing happens the solinoid could be bad.

Does your fuel pump run when the key is switched on?

Yes the switch is in the column.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT May 27 2008, 05:17 PM

Well, The lower dash pad blocks some of the access to the switch. The lower pad is easy to take off.

Just grab under the dash like in the movies and twist two wires together.

No, hotwiring is more difficult than actually finding what is wrong.

Posted by: swl May 27 2008, 05:24 PM

Welcome aboard Jeff.

You could try the 'screwdriver' trick if you are comfortable with a little sparking and drama. Do a search for '+screwdriver +trick' - basicly you use a screwdriver to short the power from the main power feed to the starter (big red wire) to the solenoid control (yellow wire). That eliminates all the wiring from the battery to the ignition switch to the relay panel and on to the starter.

Myself - I prefer to use a voltmeter like Troy suggested.

Where are you located Jeff - maybe someone can give you a hand.

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 05:32 PM

OK I jumped the car with a screwdriver.........It just sparked & buzzed, must be a bad solenoid.

I'm gonna try the "hit it with a hammer" technique, see if that works. I'm assuming the starter has to come off to remove the soleniod.

Posted by: Rand May 27 2008, 05:35 PM

I would bet it is the ignition switch. They crack and cause this symptom. Especially when you mentioned having to "turn they key hard."

While a multimeter is more civilized than the screwdriver trick, the latter is a one-man super quick test. Don't worry about the position of the key - leave it off. But DO make sure the car is in neutral and ebraked or blocked.

I'll bet a beer the screwdriver trick will crank it (not that you'll crank it - just one quick stab to see if it tries). You could have that answer in ten seconds! Git-r-done.

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 05:39 PM

Post above, I tryed it. Sounds like it's the solenoid

Posted by: Rand May 27 2008, 05:41 PM

lol.... I saw your post after I entered mine. You snuck one in ahead of me.

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 05:42 PM

You owe me a beer!! Starter's gotta come off right?

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 05:48 PM

OOPS I did it wrong, It's turning over just fine. It has to be the ignition switch. Damn I was hoping it was the soleniod.

Posted by: Rand May 27 2008, 05:53 PM

Ok, come on down, beer on me.
You wouldn't happen to have a remote switch like this? (Or the parts to rig one up?)

Makes for a little more civilized way of testing.

I would do one final bit of testing before pulling the starter.



In the pic above, red arrow to green arrow - I assume that's where you ran the screwdriver. Make sure you got a good solid connection there. If only for a second. If that check was a little weak it will buzz and spark and make you flinch. Has to be a rock solid short to try and crank.

You could check red to blue... that would make the starter spin without engaging the flywheel.

So, assuming that all checks out, then I'm with you on the solenoid ---- PROVIDING you have made sure your connections are good and clean - including the braided ground strap between the transmission and the trunk floor.

At that point, sounds like a starter swap is in order.

Posted by: Rand May 27 2008, 05:54 PM

Dammit, you did it again! No, you owe ME a beer!! I guess I have to come up there now.

Posted by: SLITS May 27 2008, 05:57 PM

If you jumped between the spade terminal (yellow wire) and the hot terminal (top post on solenoid) and all you got was a buzz ... the solenoid is bad and YES, the starter has to be removed.

Jump the two big terminals on the solenoid and the starter motor should whirr (it won't engage the flywheel ... the motor will just spin). If it doesn't the starter motor is trash.



****Damnit, you guys post to fast*****

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 05:58 PM

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 06:14 PM

Ok

Red + Yellow.... I get the car to turn over

Red + other wire..... The starter just spins, which it's supposed to do.

Use the key and nothing. I have power to the ignition because all my dash lights work, radio works, wipers works, lights etc. I started the car using the screwdriver.

Based on these facts it HAS TO BE the ignition switch right!

Posted by: Tom May 27 2008, 06:20 PM

Jeff,
No, doesn't have to be the ignition switch. Could be any connection between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. The large yellow wire runs thru the relay panel , driver's side engine compartment , and then down to the starter. Also there is a seat belt relay involved in some of the cars that could be causing your problem. If it has been intermittent, I would guess ignition or bad contact in the run somewhere between ignition sw. and starter solenoid.
Tom

Posted by: Jeffs9146 May 27 2008, 06:21 PM

Yep!

Edit: It could be a broken wire but it did start when jumped so it is more likely the switch!

Posted by: Rand May 27 2008, 06:24 PM

I agree with Tom. Good answer.

However, I don't think the '73 cars had the seatbelt relay. Also remembering the "turn it hard" bit.... I'll bet another beer it's a cracked ignition switch!

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 06:43 PM

I checked the yellow wire on the relay panel....seems to be OK. It then seems to head back to the fuse panel (drivers side under dash) and connect to another relay. I'll take a look at this, wonder if that relay could be screwed?

Posted by: yellow914 May 27 2008, 06:46 PM

Hi Jeff,

I just did the ignition switch replacement..it was cheap and easy!...(okay no wife jokes there!!) and if i can do it...it must be a no brainer!!!

good luck and welcome aboard

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 06:52 PM

Is it possible to bypass that relay using a wire with 2 male ends.

Or maybe I should stop delaying the invitable and take apart the ignition switch.

If you just changed the ignition switch, you must be able to give me some valuable pointers and tips :-)

Posted by: yellow914 May 27 2008, 07:00 PM

I followed the article from "Pelican Parts" tech forum...it had pictures and all!...Google...click the link and away you go!

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_ignition_switch/914_ignition_switch.htm

Posted by: jeffff May 27 2008, 07:03 PM

Where did u get the switch from? Pelican?

I really do appreciate all the advice and help you guys are offering. Forums are an amazing tool!!!

HA HA I was too slow

Posted by: yellow914 May 27 2008, 07:05 PM

Yep! Pelican is pretty good, I think it was about $12.00 is memory serves me??

I'm a newbie here too and a newbie to 914's....these guys (and girls) are great!

Posted by: SLITS May 27 2008, 07:06 PM

1.) Push and rotate horn pad approx 40 degrees and remove

2.) 27mm ? socket & breaker bar .... remove steering wheel (mark it for reinstallation)

3.) 4 screws to remover turn sig/wiper switch assembly (leave screws in assy) ... pull gently far enough out to expose two screws holding ignition switch assy in place. To far and connectors will pull off back and windshield wiper hoses will break (prolly will anyway ... who uses the windshield washer anyway?)

4.) Remove 2 screws that hold ign switch cover

5.) Reach up under dash and pull connector off back of ign tumbler

6.) Pull ign tumbler/switch assy out of steering column

7.) Remove itsy bitsy tiny screw near end of ign tumbler assy

8.) Pull plastic ign switch out of housing

9.) Replacement is reverse order.

**HInts .... remove drivers' seat so you can lay on your back ... helpful when you try to plug harness back into switch.

Also, have key in ign switch turned to on (disconnect battery before anything) other wise you may have trouble getting ign tumbler assy out.

Should be a thread on this site somewhere.

111-905-865K-M61 Ignition Switch, Electrical Portion, 914 1.7/2.0 (1972-74), Each $7.75
Brand: Aftermarket [Photo] [Photo]

Posted by: jimkelly May 27 2008, 07:10 PM

mine would not crank over either.

tested solenoid connection from key - no power : ((

be careful not to run your self over with the car - long volt meter wires are the best.

i ended up jump starting it just to hear it run.

jim


Attached image(s)

Posted by: ConeDodger May 27 2008, 07:40 PM

Jeff,

I told you hours ago that it was the ignition switch. You literally could have changed it by now. It costs less than the shipping I think...

It is pretty straight forward... You need to pull the negative battery cable. Pull the plug out of the back of the ignition switch. Remove the plastic part I mentioned hours ago. One or two screws if I recall correctly. Replace it with the new one and reassemble.

Posted by: rhodyguy May 28 2008, 12:34 AM

then clean the terminals and clamps on the battery. happy motoring.

Posted by: jeffff May 28 2008, 12:31 PM

Just ordered the part, $7.25 and $20 shipping to Canada. Gonna have to wait a 1-2 weeks as well. Sounds like it's a pretty straight forward install, I'll keep you posted.

Thanks for all your help, greatly appreciated

Take it easy,

Jeff

Posted by: yellow914 May 28 2008, 06:43 PM

wow! $20.00 bucks to ship a pary that could fit in an envelope?

Posted by: swl May 28 2008, 08:52 PM

yep - cross border - we get nailed with some pretty nasty brokerage fees from the couriers - even USPS/Canada Post can be nasty. Goes both ways though. Mailed a book to the US last week and it cost $20.

Posted by: jeffff Jun 12 2008, 06:08 PM

Bloody Hell.

I received the new switch a few days ago, just put it in today. Everything went smoothly except for the most important "thing". The new switch didn't fix my problem. Arrrgggghhhh

Posted by: swl Jun 12 2008, 07:45 PM

Well now you have to play the game of follow the yellow wire.

at the rear of the relay board, 12 pin connector, pin 6 (right side, 3rd from front) Check for your 12 volts there.

If nothing there try the 16 pin connector, pin 1 (right side front)

Posted by: jeffff Jun 13 2008, 05:06 PM

The yellow wire goes from the starter to the relay board (drivers side, engine comp)then goes to the fuses (drivers side, underneath dash) then up to the steering column, right?

Posted by: Tom Jun 13 2008, 05:16 PM

Jeffff,
While you are checking the yellow wire, make sure the connectors , lugs or pins , are good and clean. You have an intermittent problem, often caused by bad contacts. I'm sure it has been mentioned, but check that ground strap from the body and transmission. It can get pretty nasty with dirt and oil build up.
Tom

Posted by: Gint Jun 19 2008, 06:41 PM

This car running yet?

Posted by: jeffff Jun 21 2008, 01:48 PM

NO it's not, thanks for asking.

I haven't spent that much time on it mainly because I've been busy and also because I was choked that the new switch didn't fix my problem.

Is it possible that the "new" switch is bad? It's a pretty straight forward install, I don't see how I coulda screwed it up.

It's has to be something simple. I'll check the yellow wire to the fuse panel and to the relay box. Hopefully it's just a loose connection.

Posted by: Tom Jun 23 2008, 10:01 PM

Jefff,
Try this, Pull the yellow wire off of the starter and hook one lead from the meter to meter to it and the other lead to ground. Try to start , did you see 12 volts at the yellow wire you just removed?
YES- solenoid or starter is bad, I vote solenoid. You indicated that jumping would start the car.
If it is NO - then you are losing the 12 volts to operate the solenoid somewhere between the lug connection where the yellow wire hooks to the solenoid and the ignition switch. Closely check every connection- some may be covered with heat shrink. You will have to look under this to see if in fact the wire is actually still firmly connected to the lug or connector. The relay panel may be the culprit also. Take it one step at a time and find where you are losing the 12 volts, then you can repair it.
1- spade terminal on yellow wire at starter,
2- relay panel 12 pin connector at rear of relay panel
3- 16 pin connector on front of relay panel
4- keep working your way up to the ignition switch.
Good luck troubleshooting,
Tom

Posted by: jeffff Jun 26 2008, 05:12 PM

I got it running, I just cleaned up a few connections, seemed to work.

Just before I ran into this problem I installed a new battery. My old one was 850 cca (cold cranking amps) my new one 550!! Do you guys think that the old battery having more "juice" was masking the problem? kinda makes sense!!

Posted by: Tom Jun 26 2008, 05:24 PM

No, the battery was not too strong. Probably just bad connections as you indicated you found some and cleaned them up. Could have been the battery terminals also.
Just for others who run into this problem, which connections were dirty?
Tom

Posted by: kerensky Jun 26 2008, 05:46 PM

For anyone dealing with general gremlins like this, a good step is to check out your ground straps and negative battery cable. Seems like anytime I start getting weird running problems on an older car (not just 'teeners) it always comes down to poor connections.

Posted by: Gint Jun 26 2008, 09:13 PM

850 CCA is way overkill for a 914. Crappy/dirty ground and battery connections will cause your issue.

I just bought a new battery (550 CCA to replace a 450 CCA) because I had the same symptoms you had. Which is why I bumped the thread and asked if the car was running yet. I could start the car with a remote switch, roll start it, jumpstart it, 13.5 VDC at the battery when the car was running. When I shut it down the last time and measured the battery voltage it was 11.2 VDC. Off to the auto parts store I went. The battery also tested bad on their tester. Running like a champ again.

Posted by: jeffff Jun 30 2008, 01:01 AM

I cleaned everything. The 12 pin connector, 16 pin connnector (relay box), and terminal at the starter etc. Unfortunately I don't know exatly which piece was the culprit.

ALTHOUGH........over the past few days I've run into the same problem. It ALWAYS starts, just sometimes I have to turn the key on/off a few times.

I'll clean the connections better over the coming days.

Posted by: ericread Jun 30 2008, 01:25 PM

You done good!

It doesn't matter which wire was causing the problem, because until you cleaned all of these connectors, each one of them WOULD have been a problem in the future. Clean up the electrical problems now and you will enjoy your 914 much more.

Posted by: wobbletop Jul 17 2009, 01:15 PM

Bump (pun intended?)

The wife was getting tired of push starting the car (think Little Miss Sunshine).

After some debugging:
Shorting the solenoid to the starter worked.
Testing of the relay worked.
Decided to take out the ignition switch to check it... pain in the butt.
Ignition switch is fine but took the time to clean up some wiring under the dash.
Turns out to be a broken wire at the large connector in the engine bay at the drivers side firewall. (I didn't know that connector was there before this).

Hopefully this helps somebody.