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Posted by: dbgriffith75 Jun 5 2008, 12:48 PM

So I was at the auto parts store today picking up some new tools, and as I was standing at the counter I noticed a layout advertisement for a newly designed spark plug called a "pulse plug." Basically its the same concept as a spark plug, only with an added internal capacitor to create a spark 10 times more powerful than your average plug. It's supposed to burn feul more efficiently, resulting in increased mileage, HP and torque.

I was just curious if anybody's heard of and/or using them, and if it actually holds up to the claims? I'm not specifically talking about a 914 either, because I wouldn't mind using them in my DD if it's really true.

Here's the website I found on them: http://www.pulstarplug.com

Thoughts?

Posted by: URY914 Jun 5 2008, 12:56 PM

BS.

Posted by: Zundfolge Jun 5 2008, 01:01 PM

Snake Oil.

If pulse plugs performed half as well as the manufacturers claim they would be OEM on every new car on the market.

Posted by: ericread Jun 5 2008, 01:12 PM

I'm curious

I see that this plug has been branded as "snake oil" and the such. But how about the products which provide for a multiple spark (Crane Ignition). Or how about the Bosche "Blue" coil, which is supposed to provide a "fatter" spark (whatever that is)? Or even the expensive spark plug wires that contain an in-line capacitor (Nology)?

If your engine is really tuned correctly, is any of this stuff really necessary? It seems to me that a properly tuned engine wouldn't need any of these "improvements", but does that make all of these "snake oil"?

Just a thought...

Posted by: r_towle Jun 5 2008, 01:15 PM

I figured wth...might try them...

$25.00 per plug......hahahahahahahahaha

Not gonna happen.

Rich

Posted by: Brando Jun 5 2008, 01:23 PM

I'm waiting to hear back from them...

Posted by: Brando Jun 5 2008, 01:25 PM

Interesting test results:
http://www.pulstarplug.com/tresults/05prius.html

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Jun 5 2008, 01:36 PM

Yeah, they're a bit pricey, but not the most expensive I've heard of. A guy I used to work with used to own a dodge dually deisel (can't remember the specific engine model) and he claimed glow plugs for that beast cost him $58/plug. And given that it's a new product, you should expect a higher cost. Eventually it will go down over time. Just like the PS3, which I think is currently at $500 for a new system. Give it a few years and that price will drop dramatically. Of course by then it won't be the new fad anymore, but you get my point.



That's a good point, but the purpose for these plugs is the same as what auto manufacturers are doing with sensors and computers and hybrids and the like on new model cars- to make the car more efficient. Theoretically a bigger spark would provide more efficient ignition of the feul, which would result in better economy, HP and torque. But as with many things auto related, there's a huge difference between theory and application.

I can see how these would make a difference in about any vehicle, but the actual difference would vary depending on what you put them in. Say they're installed in a little 4 banger coupe- you'd probably see a much greater improvement as opposed to installing them in a V8 heavy half pick up just because of the weight of each vehicle.

Maybe next time I'm in the parts store I'll see if they can arrange a demonstration to get an actual look at the spark difference.

Posted by: ericread Jun 5 2008, 01:44 PM

My point is that just beause something is new or "faddish", it's not necessarily bad. However, I've ask the Crane multiple-spark question several times under different threads, and never really gotten an answer.

BTW: It looks like these plugs are in direct competition with the NOLOGY wires.

So, which of these are "snake oil" and which really make a difference?????

Posted by: Rand Jun 5 2008, 01:57 PM

I don't get it. They say these plugs "store incoming electrical energy from the ignition system." Where is it getting extra power to "store up" and then release? A plug only gets power when the dizzy sends it, and then it gets all there is to get. I don't see how these things could store and release more power if no more is being sent to them.

Also, can someone explain to me how multiple spark systems help? Atomized gas + oxygen is so explosive that it instantly touches off with a spark. How does an additional spark help? Drop a match in a bucket of gas... Dropping a second one isn't going to make it burn faster. I know - that's a bad analogy that doesn't really apply - But I would like to understand how multispark really helps/works. And twin plug for that matter (not doubting it). I just would have thought that one spark lights it - once it's lit the explosion starts - how does another spark help?

Regarding their Toyota Prius results... I thought the gas motor only charged the batteries in those things, and all the power to the wheels comes from the electric. Is that incorrect? (Hey, maybe Otmar could pick up some power with these things in his electric 914? )

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 5 2008, 02:09 PM

It appears the plug probably contains a capacitor that stores electricity and releases it all at once. There is some science behind that. Not sure if it actually works though.

There is always some fuel unburned and the multispark systems attempt to burn that up. Probably makes for a better idle and cleaner running engine.

The gas motor on the Prius is intended to give you power when your battery power is inadequate. So it turns on at acceleration and long highway trips etc.

Beware of anyone's research when the result can benefit them. Pulstar is testing their own product. If it works they sell more product. So it behooves them to make it appear to work. BIAS!!! These things should be tested double blind in an independent lab that gains nothing but their fee no matter what the result. It is good science to prove something doesn't work or does work. This is actually a very good thesis project for a grad student in engineering.

Posted by: ericread Jun 5 2008, 02:10 PM

The idea is to take the period (time length) of the electrical pulse from the dist and store it in the capacitor. Once the capacitor has stored the charge to it's rated limit, it quickly discharges. This makes a hotter, but shorter duration spark.

Anyway, that's the theory...

Posted by: biosurfer1 Jun 5 2008, 02:10 PM

I dont think that is correct, the gas engine runs when the batteries cannot keep up and has the double duty of charging them...probably why they call it "hybrid assist"

Posted by: messix Jun 5 2008, 02:13 PM

oh jake!

i'll try on the msd and crane, these units only help at idle and low rpm. the combustion chamber design of heads of the past weren't the best as far as promoting a good even fuel air ratio through the comustion chamber, the msd would keep a spark going for a longer duration to help catch the fuel air mix at the point where the compression made the mix more ideal [timing on spark is bdtc right? so giving a longer spark event via multiple spark discharge would effectivly move spark event closer to tdc] .

does that help?

Posted by: Brando Jun 5 2008, 02:20 PM

So, am i the only one that read through the website?

Not for or against this product, but on a few of their pages they have links to articles from magazines that claim to have done independent tests of these plugs. They also have a dyno run using their testing method (emphasis: their). Not sure how they pan out but I'd be willing to try em out in my bike if they make them small enough.

Waiting for a response back, still.

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Jun 5 2008, 02:22 PM

That's what a capacitor does. To put it a little more plainly, if you've got something you need power to, say an electric motor, but the power source you have is inadequate, adding a capacitor to the circuit would store the power until its sufficient to run the motor. That's not a very good example but that's the basic idea.

Pulstar is claiming the same thing- by delivering more power to the electrodes in the plug, you are essentially getting a bigger spark and theoretically, a more efficient burn.

Go to this website if you're still unclear on the details: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/capacitor.htm

Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 5 2008, 02:48 PM

Sorry... I should have been clearer apparently. Magazines are not independent. Only journals that do not accept advertising are independent. For instance a magazine does an article on cleaning and blueprinting fuel injectors and outlines the power improvement. In the magazine an advertisement appears for a company that cleans and blueprints fuel injectors. So, an intelligent person has to wonder did the fact that the popular magazine obtains income from the company effect the stated result of their "independent" tests? The fact that you can question a motivation for a result obtained means that the testing is tainted. So, from a scientific perspective you must at the least cast a jaundiced eye on the result. I'm not saying that what a magazine finds is worthless but it doesn't rise to the level of science which was my point and the point of others who made comments such as "snake oil".
Yes, I read it. I just understood it from a different perspective.

Posted by: 6freak Jun 5 2008, 03:00 PM

Mythbusters...someone callem

Posted by: r_towle Jun 5 2008, 03:38 PM

This is what the coil is already doing.
Currently, at higher rpms, the stock coil, and even the blue coil, dont have enough time to recharge the coil/capacitor as it is currently engineered.
Where is the extra, spare electricity coming from to charge the capacitor in the plug???

Not saying they dont work, but I would question if they would help or hurt the type of ignition system (coil/condensor) that we typically run now.
With an MSD type system or other multi spark system, it would work, those have more stored energy already.

Rich

Posted by: messix Jun 5 2008, 04:02 PM

google "ohm's law"

you can't get more out than you put in. [total electrical engergy]

Posted by: ericread Jun 5 2008, 04:10 PM

One more time.... A capacitor is a battery that automatically discharges at a specified value. The capacitor collects energy during the pulse from the distributor (out of the coil/condensor). It then discharges out at a higher value. How does it do this??? It sparks for a much shorter time at a higher voltage.

You are right, there's no free lunch... You cannot "create" energy. Energy out = energy in - inefficiencies. So, the capacitor collects the charge for the length of the distributor provided pulse, then discharges it out in at a higher voltage and for a shorter duration through the spark plug gap. The total energy is actually less than the original pulse from the distributor. But since it for a shorter duration, it has a higher value.

If we have to, we can go to the "buckets of water from a hose" analogy, but I don't think anybody wants that...

So the question remains, is it better to have a hotter spark, or a longer duration spark that's cooler?

Posted by: 904svo Jun 5 2008, 04:38 PM

My son has a Dyno we have seen small power gains with cars with STOCK ignition,
cars with MSD showed NO gains!! from what I seen these only work with cars with stock ignition. That my $.02 and my opinion.
Save your money

Posted by: Brando Jun 5 2008, 06:08 PM

How about on a CDI ignition setup?

Posted by: Tom Jun 5 2008, 06:27 PM

Capicators do not automatically discharge. They merely store energy until some kind of switch or electronic circuit connects them to a load, then they discharge.
Tom

Posted by: Rand Jun 5 2008, 06:44 PM

This is getting fun.

I understand how a capacitor works. But you canNOT get power OUT of a capacitor until you first put it IN.

So these plugs are somehow introducing MORE power into the combustion chamber than a regular plug, and they are doing that by storing up excess power first? From where again?

I haven't seen an answer that computes yet.

edit: Ok, I see this is getting redundant. Need to read all the posts later.

Posted by: Tom Jun 5 2008, 07:26 PM

OK , after further thought, in certain circumstances a capacitor could "automatically" discharge.
This must be what is happening with these plugs. As a the cap charges up, it at some point overcomes the ability of the resistance of the air gap on the plug to prevent current flow. Then it completely discharges very quickly as a spark.
I see another possible issue with these plugs. Caps don't instantly charge up. It takes time. The time period for the cap to charge to 90% of it's capacity is called TAU and in usually in micro seconds. A cap is considered to be fully charged after 3 TAU. So, depending on what the time period for the cap to charge to a level high enough to discharge, you would need to retime the engine. As the caps is charging, the engine is still turning- waiting for the plug to fire.
These look like another thing to break down in the middle of nowhere. Keeping it simple is usually more reliable, although maybe not the best way when searching for extra HP or mileage.
Just my thoughts anyway,
Tom

Posted by: mskala Jun 5 2008, 07:35 PM

Not to get extremely technical, which I couldn't back up with the math anyway at my age, but a single capacitor in-line is not going to add voltage, add current, or add power (electrical) in any way. And they don't discharge 'at a certain point', except once when you exceed the dielectric breakdown voltage and it fries for good.

People will sell anything, and many times even have real data from real studies showing decent gas mileage increases. What they rely on is consumers not knowing the scientific method. If you go to a school bus depot and announce you're fitting Fantastic Framastats to all the buses to get better mileage, you will get better mileage because people subconciously will adjust their driving.

Double-blind studies are the only way to prove anything scientifically.

Posted by: ericread Jun 5 2008, 11:11 PM

Tom; Thanks for your comments. I thought I was going to have to re-state the properties of a self-discharging cap. Thanks for explaining it better than I did.

Eric

Posted by: Tom Jun 5 2008, 11:36 PM

Eric,
You're welcome.
It almost seems like these plugs may be using some of the stun-gun, taser type, of theory with the cap charging then discharging rapidly at a very high voltage.
I still prefer the KISS theory. Keep it simple stupid.
Tom