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Posted by: hot_shoe914 Jun 28 2008, 09:59 PM

Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

Posted by: auerbach Jun 28 2008, 10:02 PM

Jake -- hands down

Posted by: orange914 Jun 28 2008, 10:06 PM

if i had it to do over i'd definately go with a modern engine. the subi being up there. i may get po-poed but... your not being a purist if you go with anything put the original anyway. look at the benifits of newer technology i.e. efficientcy/drivability. look at the expense of doing 225hp vrs. 325 hp. look at upgrade or even stock parts avalibility.

just my .02
mike

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jun 28 2008, 10:23 PM

Well, I think it really depends on you really. I would go with a Porsche 6 if I were going to do anything because I like the fact I am keeping it as close to it roots as possible. I guess the type IV is even more so but I preffer the six. I would think you could do a six for less than 10K installed.

Posted by: r_towle Jun 28 2008, 10:30 PM

Serious question.
How old are you?

I have found that the older I am getting the more I am liking the original design just for the fact that its original...and old.

I like keeping an old engine running..and still getting better mileage than the tuner boys...

But, if you are in an age group that like subies, you have clubs you can have fun with, then go for the suby...

Its really all about what you will do with it once its done..

Rich

Posted by: JRust Jun 28 2008, 11:17 PM

Since I have gone to the dark side with my current v8 car I'm a little torn. I really like the idea of Jake's motor & staying air cooled. Buying one allready done was a little easier. I don't think I could cut up a nice stock car . So from that point I would stay air cooled. I have no problem having a water cooled car. I like my v8 & the power. Still I am only in the mid 200's HP wise anyway. I may go subie at some point with my car. It is allready a bastard child so it would be an easy decision for me there. Good luck whichever way you go

Posted by: orange914 Jun 28 2008, 11:18 PM

from my (limited) experiance with type iv i've found them to be more expensive and definately a challange to build than any other motor i've ever built. personally i'll have just short of $5g in my 2056 and it's still not sorted out. i know others have done them for half but usually they have started with a a good base. talking to a few acuall high dollar big type iv's owners they will tell you they were blown away with all the unexpected thousands in extras they had to spend to complete it. this may not be true for all, just my experiance personally and others i've known.

sounds like a good deal on a six could be done for the same $



what kind of h.p./mileage do you get?
Its really all about what you will do with it once its done..

Posted by: TC 914-8 Jun 28 2008, 11:29 PM

Well, My opinion Having a 400 hp V8 now, and Having a 300 hp v-6 20 years ago, I can really tell the weight difference and balance in the V-8, too much unser steer. Don't get me wrong I love the HP. I also own a WRX turbo Subie wagon 230 hp, It seems to me the Subie would be the logical choice. You are getting more HP/$ and the weight and center ogf gravity (COG) wil be as close to design as possible. I am a Newbie too, Also a purest at heart but cant afford the $ for the flat 6. I am looking forward to checking all the combinations of engines and power at the WCR08. That would be the best time and place to make the decision.

Posted by: Todd Enlund Jun 28 2008, 11:48 PM

When I got my car, I wanted to do a Subie. You have to decide what's important. The 325 HP Subie would be loads of fun... more fun than anyone should be having on the street. This is where the problem comes... you put a Subie in there, and the PCA won't let you play. SCCA puts you in E-Mod with the trailer-riding monsters. If you don't plan on racing, then the Subie would probably be a great street engine... but then, if you don't plan on racing, you don't need 325 HP either...

This is why I changed my mind, and am building a Type IV... 2256cc.

I've got nothing against a Subie conversion, but it wasn't the right fit for me once I thought it through.

Posted by: dw914er Jun 29 2008, 01:57 AM

what subie motor are you doing?

a newer wrx motor is 224 hp, and a WRX sti motor is 300. Are you looking at a modified motor? I ask because a brand new STI motor, which is only 305 hp.

Both wont be cheap (ie fitting a watercooled motor into an aircooled car, plus all the work for the turbo, etc, or getting parts for the Type IV)

I think the suby conversion is cool (i sure do like STI's), but it is def. alot of work to do. The massive type 4 though, with that much power, will probably not have alot of street drivability, but would be alot easier to make things work.


Are you just looking for a fast race car, or a street/track warrior car, or just a fast street car? You mention running against muscle cars, and most MR cars are bad at drag racing, Period. If its more of freeway racing, then the subie will def work.


What exactly do you want from your car, what will you use it for, how much work do you want to do, and how much do you want to spend? Also, for some good power, check out some Porsche 6's as another alternative.

Posted by: URY914 Jun 29 2008, 07:10 AM

If you go with Jake's engine you get a new motor and great tech support from Jake himself.

With a Suby you get a used engine and your tech support is a bunch of kids on a forum talking about drifting and coffee can exhaust systems.

You could swap out a stock engine for Jake's on a Saturday and be driving to church on Sunday. With the Suby, you won't.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jun 29 2008, 07:20 AM

This is so much personal choice.

For my car, I built a 2056 T4, and am having similar experiences as Orange. But it is the first motor that I have built, and all I need to do right now is sync the carbs and get it in the car (I think).

If I were to buy another, I'd put a suby in it. It is a fantastic motor.

Zach

Posted by: Paul Illick Jun 29 2008, 08:11 AM

You can get a 220 hp 2.8 from Jake for seven grand? All in? I think you might want to check that again.

Keep it "original"? You're suggesting that I make sacrifices just so I can keep that original VW 411 motor? Hmmm.... OK, I can see your point, but I'm not seeing why I should be looking forward to that. As for going TIV because you're old, I guess that means I'm older, because I've adjusted valves, changed points and cleaned idle jets all my life and I think I've had just about enough of that. And for good order's sake nobody drifts Subaru's. They're four wheel drive cars, so too much traction to drift. Try drag racers and rally cars, more like it. And there's nothing uncool about rally cars.

I've always thought that "you know you can't race a Subaru" was a specious argument. Yes, you most certainly can race a water cooled 914, but since you'll be in a higher and more competitive (cubic dollars) class you're going to have some very formidable competition. So if you go Subaru you probably aren't going to be racing to WIN, but you can certainly go racing for FUN, which is why you're doing the conversion anyway. Isn't it? And with 300 horsepower you'll be waving bye-bye and thanks a lot to those aircooled fours all day after they wave you by. Now THAT'S fun! Can't race PCA? Since they don't much like my NARP anyway that doesn't bother me too much.

Either engine will give you more than enough horsepower. With flares you already won't have an "original" car, so that's not a consideration either. Even a used Subaru will give you twice or three times the miles that you'll get from a big four, with less than half the hassle. And if it breaks after 100,000 miles just get another used $2000 motor, they're all over the place, and bolt it in in an evening. No hassles. With either engine you'll be breaking transmissions more often than that. But that bnings up a consideration not mentioned, that the Subaru might have too much horsepower. No kidding, with that much HP you can spin the tires pretty much at will under sixty mph. So unless you have maturity and some skills it might be prudent to dial it down a bit and go with Jake's motor. Easier to control.

Posted by: zymurgist Jun 29 2008, 08:27 AM

Can you get a 325 hp Subaru that won't require cutting up one of your trunks for the radiator/intercooler?

If yes, I'd go with the Subie.

If no, I'd go with the Type IV. I like the idea of 2 trunks.

Posted by: turboman808 Jun 29 2008, 08:52 AM

Thats a tough one. I personally would prefer to have a twin plugged 6 to anything else. I would love to see Jake start putting some RnD into the early 911 motors.

Come on Jake I want my 400hp twin plug 3.0

But as things stand a aircooled 6 would be my first choice
subi second. Hey can't deny it's power, reliability, cost and weight.
3rd would be one of Jakes motors.

Posted by: james2 Jun 29 2008, 10:13 AM

Wow, i remember getting in a big flame war over putting water cooled engines in VWs over on the samba. LOL

Let's just say i wouldn't be for it at all, and while the type 4 or flat six would enhance value, IMHO a water cooled motor would kill the value.

The extra HP would be soaked up by all the radiators and water and pumps and junk....LOL

Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 29 2008, 11:53 AM

there's something to be said of the sound the ac boxers make. i 'd never heard my car getting worked while ahead of me. curt was driving my car faster that i felt going in his carrera. i enjoy the 'crudity' of a 914.

Posted by: WLD419 Jun 29 2008, 02:03 PM

Wow! tough decision , which ever one you chose ,make sure you follow thru
make a list of the mods required for each engine swap (detailed,there are lots
of unexpected items) and decide on what kind of time for each swap and how
long you can handle your 914 being up on jackstands .

I myself have a 2.8 IV (84 x 103) and I'm loving it. It's more power then I
needed 180 rwhp (215 fw) at 5500 rpm / 187 rwTorque at 4500 rpm . I've
realized now that I need better brakes . Ah but it's worth it when you give
someone a ride and they can't believe it's VW Type IV

Which ever you choose Good Luck with your endevorer

P.S. future plans down the road are to add a TURBO
for now I'm enjoying as is

Bill

Posted by: hot_shoe914 Jun 30 2008, 02:40 AM

First off I want to thank everybody for their input and opinions. I now realize I left out a lot of info that should have been included. I am at heart a purist but by nature a wild speed deamon never achieving a speed so fast that I didn't want more. I will be restoring my LE Bumblebee to keep a nice pure 914 and as much as I would love to do a tweaked out 3.2 or 3.6 conversion I have not run across an affordable deal to do that as I have with this big bore IV. Yes Jake I do know one of your engines would be around 12 or 13 thousand and someday I hope to own a Raby engine. However on occaision you get lucky and stumble upon a sweet deal that saves you a ton of money and this is what I have a shot at with the IV. my first instinct is to stay pure with the air cooled as it will provide plenty of horse power and will have that sweet unmistakable sound. The freak in me wants so much power it is ridiculous and it would be so nice to actually beat some of the cars to the curves before waxing their asses in the curves. Nothing sucks more than to have a little Mustang GT walk off and leave you on the straight because as we all know, they just won't follow us to our turf in the curves. Therefore a subi would give me the best of both without the maintenance cost of a 3.2 conversion. Maybe some day I will have one of those and actually be able to afford it. I can get into the subie fairly reasonable for the end result and also can the IV right now. I have not made my final decision yet but as of now am still leaning towards the IV even though it will cost me more. You all have made excellent points and each has it's pros and cons so still not sure. I do know that no matter what I decide I will always be a purist at heart and will show that with my LE once it is finished.

Thanks again for all the input. You guys rock!

Donald

Posted by: dw914er Jun 30 2008, 02:58 AM

people drift the awd subies and evo's.

they modify the awd so its either the rwd, or just pulling most to the rear end. How do I know? Went to a drift competion, and saw alot of sti's and evo's drifting. Though, they are more popular for rally.

I do love the type 4. Not the fastest, or most reliable known motor, but with the 914, its still not hard to get a smile. As for the massive Type IV, you can build your own. Raby makes good motors, but you can build a cheaper version, that is just as good (just takes some more effort than buying a R2R motor)

good luck though on the search

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 30 2008, 07:24 AM

Nope.. Thats no fun at all.

When I chose to move forward with engine development, my engine of choice was the Boxster/996 and 997. They are unknown, have tons of issues and offer the challenges needed to keep me from getting bored.

Here is my cross post from this thread on the "other" site
First off:
The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

Most of my customers never even consider doing a water cooled conversion. They are hardcore aircooled and will spend the extra money initially to keep their car aircooled. Its your car and your choice...

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!


I beg to differ. Plenty of people have that mis-conception and end up learning that they were incorrect. This usually occurs about the time that they have spent more money than my kit and still have components colliding with each other inside the engine. About then they realize that they should have bought the kit.

That happens dozens of times per year.

Others can sell you some parts, but they can't parallel my engine design or the R&D that has been expended to create these designs. They also can't parallel our support during assembly and most importantly they can't sell you LE heads and RAT components.

There are many ways to make a TIV bigger and faster, but only one way to make it MassIVe.

Posted by: r_towle Jun 30 2008, 08:59 AM

THAT is the way to say it....well said .

Rich

Posted by: ericread Jun 30 2008, 10:43 AM

As an older guy, I really prefer a 914 that is as unmolested as possible, but the choice is a fun one to make.

My only thought is that a 200+ HP Raby engine is going to provide you with a 914 as it was designed. It should be scary quick and fast, without compromising the integrity of the tub (body).

A Subi conversion will not only involve cutting the body, but at 300+ HP, I imaginge you will have to reinforce the tub in a number of places. IMHO, the 914 was never designed to take the stresses of a 300+hp powerplant, and I would imaging the stresses would torque the body pretty hard.

So if you decide to convert to a Subi, you should probably plan to make upgrades in the body reinforcement, suspension, braking and obviously, cooling.

Seems like a lot more work (and money) you may not have included in your budget.

Eric Read

Posted by: Paul Illick Jun 30 2008, 10:55 AM

OK, in other words your big four will cost two or three times the cost of a Subaru conversion, for 100 less horsepower. Is that right?



That's just salesman's talk, Jake. What you end up with doesn't look like a Fiero or a Boxter, but a 914. A NARP with a LOT of horsepower. And there are no "irreversible" changes needed to put in a water cooled motor. Simply save the sheet metal pieces cut out for the radiator inlet and outlets, and if you ever want to convert it back to aircooled just weld them back in. Done and dusted. Doing that is no different than very simple rust repair, so it's certainly not "irreversible" and not even that expensive. It would be ten times more difficult and expensive to remove flairs from a car, trailing arm reinforcements, an inner long kit, but nobody ever does that, either.



Again, just salesman's talk. The fact is that no modified car of any make will retain value as well as an unused and untouched original, but if anyone is considering a big motor it's because they want to have FUN with their car, not leave it under glass so others can admire. If you want a concours car you can't make any changes anyway, and that includes the beefed up suspension and brakes that even your 200 hp engine will require, or a Porsche six. But of course you can always remove whatever brakes, suspension, engine, water cooled components, if you want, so it's not true that anything is ever really "ruined", with any of those engines. That's IF you want to remove them and put the 1.8 back in, but no one ever does.

And about respect, there's a reason the term NARP is used around here. In Europe these cars were called VW/Porsches, so with that VW 411 engine you're going to be dissed by some people at Porsche events anyway. But consider the source and thank the jerks for identifying themselves so you don't have to waste any of your time with them. Spend your time with people who understand where you're coming from. And forgive me, but I've seen exactly the opposite of what you say about Subarui engines in VW's. They attract enormous attention at VW shows. And respect, too. Why? It's obvious. 300 horsepower that you can drive everyday on the street, without any special attention, without needing to even adjust valves? You've just hit on what any hard-core VW guy dreams of, a gently brutal giant killer. And that includes the Porsche/VW guys.

If VW and/or Porsche were still making these cars today, had been evolving them this whole time, they'd be putting in water cooled engines very similar to the Subaru engine anyway. And isn't that why we do most of the modifications to our cars anyway, because there's a better way than when the factory did it forty years ago? Isn't that why you're modifying T4 motors?

I agree totally that you should do what you want with your car. Period, end of sentence. But please, no need to exaggerate. You have good products, they can stand on their own. If people are asking questions to make decisions they need facts, not exaggeration and hyperbole.

Posted by: TeenerTim Jun 30 2008, 11:58 AM

The only water in a 914 should be in the window washer bottle.
Jake's motor will fit right in with no mods at all. The suby will force you to cut up your car and it will take a lot time and money to do it.

Posted by: dw914er Jun 30 2008, 12:39 PM

Jake, I was refering to Steve (i think his profile name is sww914) and he built his massive type IV, and thats a fast car. My buddy hershel also has a massive type IV, and I think he also built his, and that's a fast car too.

They knew what they were doing to build it, and knew how to get the results they wanted. IM not bagging on your business or anything (I don't know how to build monster type IV, so maybe in a few years I might call you for a new R2R motor), but you are not the only option when it comes to type IV

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 30 2008, 01:23 PM

neither ...
Andy

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 30 2008, 01:24 PM

those may be fast cars that have well built engines, but unless it has a RAT serial number is can't be MassIVe... Lots of knockoffs have spawned as the evolution of my program has gone to the more advanced levels.

Posted by: toon1 Jun 30 2008, 01:56 PM

I was is this posistion also. Not for the reason of massive power but for the reason of an engine rebuild/swap.

I decided to go with the TIV. NOT for purist reasons. I just wanted to see if I could build a nice running TIV.

The challenges I faced where frustrating and rewarding. The expenses I encoured where more than I thought.

I also wanted a nice DD that was good on fuel. That being said, and hinde site being 20/20, I think I should have gone with the subi.

The subi offers a little more for what I wanted out of MY car.

There are things that can be done with the Subi. that you just cannot do with the TIV. The subi . offeres about 110HP in the 1.8 with no mods.

There are places I want to take the car that with a subie I would not have to think about it, with the TIV I would think twice.

I am alway's worried about head temps with the TIV and sometimes alter my route to avoid potential areas that might cause issues. No matter how well the engine is tuned, there is always that long hill in a head wind that you will encounter that will create heat issues there is just no way around it


In the end, It's all about what YOU want and what YOU are happy with.

P.S.- if the 914 was produced today( ummm boxster) it WOULD be water cooled.

IMHO, WC engines are just better and more reliable ( no offense to anyone)

Posted by: zymurgist Jun 30 2008, 02:18 PM

Does that apply only engines that you assemble, or also to the kits you sell for people to assemble themselves? I seem to recall one of your posts stating that a customer could save a lot of money by assembling one of your kits rather than paying for your time to assemble the engine.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jun 30 2008, 02:20 PM

How can that be true? 911s are rather reliable. Porsche didn't go to water cooled because they felt it would be more reliable And to say that if a 914 was made today it would be water cooled is like saying if they made the 911 today it would be water cooled

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jun 30 2008, 02:22 PM

Posted by: toon1 Jun 30 2008, 05:55 PM

I never said AC engines where NOT reliable, they are to a point. I said "IMHO WC engines are MORE relaible". I do know for a fact, ( as I stated above) there are times I will avoid taking my 914 certain places due to the fact I am usure about how the engine may handle it. Call me over cautious but I would sure hate to be stranded by an engine that dropped a valve seat because it couldn't climb a hill on hot day or any other day for that matter.

Is that a tuning thing? maybe!

Is that a maintenence prob.? maybe!

could it happen to a perfectly good running TIV? maybe!

It could also happen to a WC engine BUT there is more room for error and a WC engine gives the ability to have that margine of error.

Hence makes them MORE reliable, MORE forgiving and MORE user freindly.

I HAVE and AC engine. I'm fairly happy with it but I have to work around it's parameters, sometimes I like it sometimes I don't. But for now that's what I have until it blows up and at that point it's decision time again. A Subi may be the way I go. It's all a matter of opinion It's all good!

You will have to excuse my ignorance.

Why did Porsche start putting WC engines in their cars?

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jun 30 2008, 06:24 PM

more horse power. They felt they could create more efficient HP going water cooled.

Most of your reasoning behind your engine not being as trust worthy may be from it not being a fresh engine. If it is it and set up correctly it can withstand very high heat. Remember, 914s and 911s regularly beat water cooled cars in the 24 hour races. Now if you are pushing your engine to a higher compression or something like that it may be more unstable. However, a stock 914 or 911 engine is a very reliable engine and just as much as any water cooled engine.

Posted by: dw914er Jun 30 2008, 07:16 PM

I think though that they are more temperature sensitive. My car runs pretty hot, especially during summer. The point is that it runs hotter when its being cooled by 110 degree weather, vs my water cooled RSX that the temp stays about the same anytime of the year

but i agree, they will run in either condition. Now, stopping the car, and getting vapor lock (havnt relocated fuel pump) is where the long roadtrips start to show some problems, but thats now an ac/wc problem

Posted by: toon1 Jun 30 2008, 08:03 PM

Doens't efficiancy breed reliability?

My engine IS fresh! it has about 3k on it. I am running 1.7 with MS, crank trigger, 8.2:1 comp. and a 9550 cam. I have ifinite adjustability over timing and AFR's. With all that, there are still heat related issues. Not all the time. Most the time, they are fine. Most of my driving is on flat terrain. BUT, in those instances where I have to cross a Mtn. pass the temps. climb to an uncomfortable level(390*, 13.5:1 afr, 25* timing). There are no ways of getting around it, it's just what they do. In my WC car, it's not that way.

The fact that, seemingly MOST of the topics related to these engines is try to COOL them say's it all. Everybody here with a AC engines go through great lengths to make sure they stay cool. I would venture to say it's the #1 killer of the ac engine.

Keith

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 30 2008, 08:29 PM

My Turn Key engine program and my engine kit program share none of the same characteristics.. The engines built in the shop as "Turn Key" units are not based from our kit.

The kit engines are 2-3 years behind the development of their turn key counterparts as we use the experiences gathered from the design, testing and effectiveness of the base engines used in turn key customers cars to create the engine kits... Thats why it takes 2-3 years to chose the easiest to assemble, most effective base engines for the foundation of that "kit" engine.

Today in my Turn Key engine shop we are taking orders for twin plug TIV engines, roller cam and lifter equipped engines and even engines with forced induction that also use both the roller cam and twin plug technology all rolled into one package. I refer to these engines as "MassIVe Generation II".

The engine kit program was updated in January 2008 and will not change till mid year, 2010. These kits are derived from the turn key engines of the 2005-2007 era and use that technology and those engine combinations. This makes it simple to create an engine that we can forecast tuning for as well as know what it will attain for power, MPG and longevity.

These kits are easy to assemble engines that we can assist you in creating step by step. This can be done with only a 119 piece tool set by someone with ZERO previous experience! We actually prefer that kit assemblers have no prior experience and bad habits! Those are always the best builds.

The engine kit program is so far advanced that we now have assembly tool kits that can be purchased cheaply and used for engine assembly... Thats how well the program is refined.

If you base an engine off of one of my kits, it will be MassIVe, but it will always be a kit that you assembled yourself. The only way to make a TIV MassIVe is with one of my kits, or a complete engine package... Anything else is just a "Big 4".

Posted by: Todd Enlund Jun 30 2008, 09:34 PM

And noise/emissions, IIRC...


As far as the reliability issues, if there is one place that I want a reliable engine, it is at 15,000 feet. The VAST majority of aero engines are aircooled.

Of course, they do have a bit of a cooling advantage over automotive engines... but the point remains.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 30 2008, 09:40 PM

Aviation engines operate in cooler ambient temps...

As for watercooling... The switch was most impacted by emission control restrictions.. Just like at the exhaust system on a 993 engine to see the challenges the environmental restrictions placed on the last aircooled Porsche engines.

even today with all the Boxster and 996 developments we are doing, I still don't appreciate any watercooled Porsche... Developing watercooled Porsche engines has been a business endeavor for us only. (So I can reinvest more into aircooled development!)

Posted by: turboman808 Jun 30 2008, 10:25 PM

Never had a problem with overheating.

Posted by: zymurgist Jul 2 2008, 06:22 AM

Didn't it have something to do with cooling issues for 4 valve heads? Porsche discovered on the 935 and 936 that they had to use water cooling for the heads because they were exceeding the thermal limits of the engine. (Bruce Anderson, Porsche 911 Performance Handbook)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 12:05 PM

And the heads were hotter because of the restrictions imposed by emissions equipment...

Posted by: james2 Jul 2 2008, 12:16 PM

" it's hell being right all the time,"

Posted by: Zundfolge Jul 2 2008, 12:57 PM

Seems to me if you plan on doing any racing, a Raby motor is the absolute best choice because of classes and such. Also the ease of installation would be a big factor to consider.

If you want better daily driver driveability, the Subie motor is a real good choice (IMNSHO the Subie motor makes a V8 conversion obsolete unless you're trying to build something like a 500hp+ supercar out of a 914).

If you want "authenticity" and have the money, a 911 motor is still the best way to go.

Only thing not to like about the Raby is the price (but I suspect you get what you pay for).

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 2 2008, 01:29 PM

I think you will find that a 3.2 or 3.6 liter six can be done cost effectively and will run reliably with time proven consistency and output will be superior to any 2.8 T4 on crack.

I'm not a fan of big T4's regardless of the sales pitches. Funny thing is many of the T4 horor stories rarely make it to any of the boards, but hang around in 914 community long enough you hear/see all the issues and the money that gets thrown at making these motors work correctly. Then just as they are working poof! Something lets go.

If not a six then subie would be my second choice.

Best choice of all for a 914-4 owner that plans street and some AX is to just go with a nice 2056 and pass on the drag racing. Why not keep thae car as close to stock as possible to retain reliability that was engineered by true engineers rather than barn yard bandits.

Posted by: ericread Jul 2 2008, 03:03 PM

Blasphemy!!!

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 03:04 PM

I'd bet that if YOU knew ANYTHING about them you'd certainly post them right here. Thats because you'll do anything possible to downplay what I create and the TIV- period. Any simple mistake I make is ammunition for a person such as yourself to use against me and the engines I create.

So if it really existed, why didn't YOU post it?

(And you wonder why I kicked your ass off my boards.)




So, you call me a "Barnyard Bandit"...

Have you ever designed an engine that made 52 HP per cylinder N/A and then standardized that assembly into a package that is able to be assembled by someone that has literally NEVER worked on an engine before??? Until you do you haven't been as effective as this "Barnyard Bandit".

Thats OK, Excellence Magazine will be in my "Barnyard" next week covering another of the developments that have sprouted from the seeds we started sowing 3 years ago. You'll rread about it in a couple of months in a few thousand words of detail. I wonder if Grant has ever had his work featured in such an article?

Here is a good pic to piss Grant off a little more.. This is a customer who I flew 2300 miles to see and repair his oil leak on his RAT Turn Key engine. He didn't have to ask me to do it. we pulled the engine in his garage and repaired the leak..

Posted by: Zundfolge Jul 2 2008, 04:49 PM

Honestly I don't understand the Type IV hate.

If you want to compete against 4cyl 914s and be competitive, the best thing you can do is stuff a big bore Type IV in the car.

Upgrading to a 6, a Subie or a V8 puts you in the same class as dedicated track cars who are going to eat your lunch unless you dump a TON of cash into the car with the new motor, and reduce the drivability of the car on the street (if not make it an outright track only car).

As for Raby's Type IVs, the only people I hear complaining about them are people that haven't bought them.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 04:53 PM

Imagine that..

And of course, Grant will always complain because he is Grant and is the ultimate "Jake Hater"..

But I love Grant.. Its guys like him that remind me how successful and effective myself and my program have been. If it is worth all that energy to hate me, I must really be getting on his nerves.

Posted by: james2 Jul 2 2008, 05:42 PM

You have not arrived until you get your own personal haters.....

I've been tryin', but no hate for me yet...

Posted by: rtalich Jul 2 2008, 06:10 PM

Try selling something on the classifieds for way cheaper than what they're worth... worked for me

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 2 2008, 06:38 PM

Hmmm seems to me that someone thinks they are only builder of "Big T4's". Sorry but I cant control your inflated ego. I wasn't referring to you Jake. Re-read my post if you like. No mention of you or Massive T4 's at all. Actually if I was inclined to build a big T4 you would be on the short list. Dude take a chill pill!

I own a T4 motor and I'm working on a project as we speak. I just dont think big bore T4's are cost effective or a viable motor for regular use when compared to many of the well proven alternatives. Plain and simple no emotion, no T4 or Jake hate. Get over it.

My opinions on big T4's have been confirmed by years of practical experience around these motors at the street and on the track. I was running big bore T4's in my 71 VW Bus when I was in high school in the 1970's Jake, Were you even born yet? Yes you have done tons to improve these motors with lots of help from great suppliers, but a reliable 2.8 T4 budget motor isnt what this person wants.

I dont hate these motors - I just see someone who wants 200 plus HP on a budget who wants some objective input. A Massive T4 is not the solution plain and simple.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 08:15 PM

Are you in politics? If you aren't perhaps you should be.

Gotta go. Gotta go work on a twin plug engine for a 550 Spyder.. It belongs to Herbie Blash

http://www.xserve2.com/gpe/cref-blaher.htm
Since December 1995 he has acted as the FIA's Deputy Race Director at all Grands Prix.

I wonder why he chose a 4 cylinder??
Oh well, he must be just another one of those brainwashed kool-aid drinking dumb asses.. I wonder why he chose a "Barnyard Bandit" to create the engine for him?? Looks like one of those FIA wrenchs could have handled his "VW Motor".

Instead it'll be getting shipped across the Atlantic.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 2 2008, 08:29 PM

I think the real question comes when you ask, when is it still a type IV, and when is it something else?

How much less originality is present with a chopped up and modified to hell engine, versus just replacing it with something else similar? Where do you draw the line?

Do I still have a type IV when I've cut large amounts out of the case to fit my huge cylinders? How about if I weld up the heads to move the exhaust ports? What if I replace the heads entirely with aftermarket ones?

If you follow this road to it's logical conclusion, you end up at http://www.pauter.com, making over 900 horsepower for drag racing 4-cylinder cars.

Their shit is expensive, but it's only money right? You'll always make more.

Posted by: james2 Jul 2 2008, 08:57 PM

That's the way i look at, the government is busy making more money all the time. The supply of Massive type 4s are limited. better get one now while the waiting list is short.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 09:08 PM

Thats why we have been referring to our engines for years as "MassIVe 4s"


A Subaru isn't similar. A Porsche 6 cylinder only shares it's cooling medium and the fact that it is horizontally opposed with the "MassIVe 4" or the Type 4.



Thats why we don't do that. Most all our engines make their power with a 96mm bore that slides right into the stock, non machined case.


We don't do that either, in most instances..


Don't do that either..


You said it "Drag Racing". How many teeners drag race?



Thats right.. And thats why my Wife's twin plug 2.9 Liter street car makes more power from less displacement than Don Pauter's Ghia street car that uses one of his "Big Block" engines of greater displacement (3140cc Vs 2866cc). Her engine also gets better MPG (even using 52mm Weber carbs Vs EFI on the Pauter engine) and utilizes STOCK TIV head castings with the only welding being done for the second plug modification. The Pauter engine uses an aftermarket head with much bigger valves and ports.

The stock TIV case is a great foundation. We'll be making over 1,000 HP from a Porkies head equipped, boosted twin plug roller cam engine by years end- if all goes as expected.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 2 2008, 09:54 PM

Jake my "Barnyard Bandit" comment wasnt directed at you at all. Again youre injecting your ego into the thread uneccessarily. My Barnyard bandit comment was directed at somone who is selling a $7000 2.8 T4. WTF dude? Too much caffine today?

You now damn well there is no way somone has built a 2.8 T4 turn key that will hold together for any period of time? I'm sure you could buld one but we'd be talking $20K plus for a 2.8 Raby turn key that could compete with a 300 HP subie right?

I will also add that it is irresponsible to direct somone new to T4's to a mega big bore motor. Jake, You yourself told me that most of the motor failures you have seen have been from people not realizing they have lean setup etc. Why not startout wih a less expensive starter motor to make sure he gets everything right? He has stated he is on a budget.

I still think a 2056 T4, Porsche six or a subie are better options.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 10:04 PM

OK, looks like Grant has taken his Prozac and all is well.. At least for another 12hours or so :-)

I would agree that the 7K 2.8 more than likely isn't what it should be and there is no evidence that it was ever one of my engines.

Yes, most all engine failures associated with the MassIVe 4 or the Type 4 are related to tuning or improper sub systems.
With today's 2056 capable of 165 HP as a single plug flat tappet 9:1 arrangement, it is certainly gaining popularity. I expect to break 200HP with the 2056 as a roller cammed twin plug engine by the end of the summer.

Thats an engine thats easy to assemble, simple and not very expensive at all.

And remember where the first Porsche was built.. In a shed, on a FARM..

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jul 2 2008, 10:10 PM

Gonna have to agree with Grant on this one Jake. He never mentioned you and I have heard a lot of backyard guys trying to build their own version of what you do and fail. We know that what you do is proven and good but is not cheap. I do someday hope to do a monster of a TIV of your design after I have my six all sorted out the way I want.

Posted by: LarryR Jul 2 2008, 10:19 PM

I think that a lot of people get hung up on displacement and HP. I have done it many times . I think the 2270 is really a sweet spot (IMHO they seem to realy fly)

However, if I was going to drop big coin it would be for a porsche 6.

I really think that there is a point where if you need say 300 hp you should just buy a 3.6 porsche engine. You can find 964 engines for somewhere around 6.5K if you take your time and you get to benefit from great resale with a 3.6 combo. 993 engines from 8000-12000 (non turbo). My 3.6 can still scare the crap out of me even after almost 3 years.

The 2270 provides plenty of power though and would provide all the reliability you need.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 10:38 PM

I agree that above the 220 HP level "other" engines may be a more suitable choice for the 914...

At that level an engine making 55 HP/ cylinder is on the ragged edge N/A..

Perhaps in a couple of years, after we have fully developed the 2.8 and 2.9L engines that have already made 250 HP N/A things might change..

The "Mighty Spyder" engine I built in 2006 made 265 HP as only a 2.4L engine using our dated twin plug arrangement.. That engine revved past 8,500 RPM as a street engine and I am working to apply roller cam technology to that combo as well.. Its one of my favorite combos at 69mm stroke and 105.7mm bore with a 235 CFM twin plug head.

We'll see what the future holds..

One thing is for sure- bigger isn't better.

Posted by: michaelt55 Jul 2 2008, 10:52 PM

I figured I'd chime in as a person who has owned a Raby engine and one who has a V8 in his 914. I sold my Raby engine because I wanted a little more umph and knew at the time I could not justify buying a bigger engine and I was getting a killer deal on the V8. Did I like Jake's engine? Sure did... Would I buy one at a later time when my kids are out of college? Hell yes...especially for my kit car. I have also seen the customer loyalty that Jake fosters and the way over the top "tech support" he gives. So I would pick the 4 (2056 or larger) from Jake over the Subie due to that type of support. Am I a "Jake supporter"? Yep..reckon I am... In fact if he keeps working on the boxster type engine I may go to that...

Michael

Posted by: LarryR Jul 2 2008, 10:55 PM

Your 2270 probably gets pretty close to that? 220? I know I was extremely impressed by the one running around here.

I would also like to just add one more thing about adding a 3.6 since I may have added the illusion that you could have a 3.6 for 6500. The answer is yes you can have the engine for that but then look at the conversion costs:

915 trans 1500
wevo kit 2000
linkage 620
eng tin 420
oil tank 1000
oil cooler 1500 (with lines)
mounts 500
flywheel 500
clutch pkg 1000


so 8640 and that is the short list there is another couple of grand I am forgetting. Then big brakes, suspension etc...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 2 2008, 10:56 PM

Mike, thanks for the post..

The Boxster and 996 engines are our future... But you can trust that the funds they;l generate will go right back into aircooled development :-)

Glad I was able to please you and exceed your expectations.

Posted by: CliffBraun Jul 3 2008, 03:21 AM

As a newbie here, I probably don't add much weight to this discussion, however I'm an ME in training and a big part of that is understanding the trade offs. In my 914 I ended up going for as low mass as possible (also low polar moment), so I was torn between a built Type I and a Type IV. I ended up going with the Type IV because of cost and because of classing.

I've no experience with Jake's engines, but I am suspicious of someone promising those gains and using such language. Anyone who shadow boxes about the engines they build (2.8 type IV is good/ we don't build those often, so you can't use them against us) is kinda stringing you along. Promising two different things based on different engines is kinda a misleading way to do business.

Anyways, I don't mean to rip on Raby, double speak kinda irritates me ever since I read 1984 though. My planned set up is a 2.0 with slightly longer connecting rods, and nicer internals to produce a great deal more torque without sacrificing reliability.

I decided not to go with a 2.4 (not even a 2.8!) because of reliability issues, Andrew broke a 2.4 at an autocross, and I didn't want the slightest chance of that happening. That said, I would be nervous as hell with a 2.8....

Much less one built by someone with a God complex.

I'd be happy to give more details about what I'm building provided the people building it don't have a problem with that. I am very much of the opinion that the advantage in the 914 is being able to maintain velocity through corners, rather than putting a big flippin' engine in it. Ever seen a V8 conversion win an autox?

Just one PS, your response to Chris' comment is complete shit, the entire thread is about a big Type IV, and you comment "Thats why we don't do that. Most all our engines make their power with a 96mm bore that slides right into the stock, non machined case."

To me that's hugely misleading, again, the entire thread is "big IV vs other engine" and you're responding with how the small Type IV is great....

Yeah, most of your engines don't do that, but that's what he's talking about building; I could give a damn if your 1.8 produces infinity horses reliably; a 2.8(especially based on the same case) is an entirely different story.

Incidentally, my no holds barred 914 is a Pauter engine running on methanol, as far as I've read nothing Raby builds can come close. You have to design (or copy) mounts, but it's still better than paying a ton for snake oil that bolts to your stock mounts.



Lemme know how I'm wrong so I can fix myself.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jul 3 2008, 04:14 AM

You're picking some fights with some rather experienced 914 guys that DO know their stuff... This could prove to be interesting

Posted by: LarryR Jul 3 2008, 08:55 AM

I think that a couple of us introduced the idea of a smaller displacement type IV due to budget consciousness.

As for engine builders having uber confidence in their product I dont think I have ever met a really good one that didnt

As for the rest of that I think I'll just say no need for all that venom ... Not really the best way to introduce yourself by insulting the folks that have been around here the longest.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 3 2008, 08:57 AM

Cliffbraun,
If I were you I'd get a few more than 22 posts under my belt before making such a post. People might take you a little more seriously that have been on these boards since they were started... At this point you just seem like someone that hasn't done their homework on what we create and wants to throw more fuel on the fire with your opinion. You have zero first hand experience with my creations and your knowledge of who and what I am is probably limited to this post only.

As far as the "God" approach, well that type of attitude is what pisses off guys like Grant and thats why I like to employ it, when necessary. It really gets them going and it has obviously has worked with you as well. Meet me in person or talk to me on the phone and you'll never guess that the person you have read about here is actually me..

But with you being an ME in training, we aren't supposed to get along anyway. I look forward to future debates with you :-)

At any rate..

My post to Chris that was "pure shit" was meant to explain that an engine as large as a 2.8 is not necessary to make a broad power band with tons of useable power while tipping the scales at over 200HP from a 2316cc power plant, on pump gas.

One of the biggest issues we have to contend with from a consulting standpoint are guys that make the engines too large to be efficient. For years the idea was to build the engine as big as possible and it would make power, but thats just not the case. Those big engines are very difficult to equip with heads and exhaust that will be effective enough to create power or to put that power where it needs to be in the operating range. This is why 95% of my engine combinations utilize the 96mm bore as it provides the best mix of performance, reliability and cost when the sub system requirements are factored into the equation.

To me a "Big 4" is anything beyond a 2056, it doesn't have to use a huge 103 or 105mm bore to make big power.
Now as far as making big power on Alcohol:
We don't build drag race engines and no classes that the TIV competes in will allow the use of Alcohol. Most of the race engines we build are heavily impacted by rules that dictate displacement and the largest "race" engine we build is 2013cc for SCCA E Production. The range is pretty much 1500cc engines for Land Speed Racing (the current 1500cc record is held by RAT power) as well as 1832cc engine for SCCA F Production.

My focus always has and always will be on street engines that are capable of being dual purpose competition engines when the driver wants to attend an AX or a DE event. We turn down competition engines on a near daily basis because they are both not our specialty and they also take up a ton of our time that can be used to develop new technology for the MassIVe 4 street engine or to help educate the following on the proper methods of manipulating or tuning their own engine.

That said, the 2.8 engine thats been the topic of this thread is more than likely mis-configured and makes less power than a properly enhanced 2.3L engine. Thats the way the ball generally bounces.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 3 2008, 09:31 AM

Yes please more details! I know we have some awesome T4 developers here on West Coast but they have profesionalism to stay off public 914 forums and focus on their work. I'd love to start hearing about other builders and what they are doing with the T4.

There certainly is the money and enthusiasm on the West Coast for a premier T4 builder to emerge. I'd go to a T4 if I could find somone I could trust to buid a motor for me in California. I have the T4 case I was going to use for a Raby motor a couple years ago sitting in my garage.

Now that I'm focusing primarily on AX I may go back to T4 again. But I want something that will put out 200 HP and rev to 7500 RPM.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 3 2008, 10:59 AM

He's getting a rabbit-rods 2.0 built by my dad. He had quite a bit of budget for the project, so we spent quite a while playing with various ideas. Type 1 engines, Type 4 engines, v8s, 6-cylinders, inline 4 cylinders, and the most cost effective solution ended up being the long-rods 2-liter. It uses the stock mounts ( obviously ), runs on pump gas, never leaks, never overheats, revs to 8,000 , and should last him a good 10-20 years of daily driving. The engine ends up being wider than a normal 2.0, but you can still adjust the valves with it in the car.

Posted by: james2 Jul 3 2008, 11:34 AM

Have you had good luck with the rabbit rods?

I know in type 1 motors they are frown upon because they take so much material from the rod journal. This reduces the overlap on the journals and weakens the crank.

The rabbit rod is only 46mm compared to the stock 50mm size for a type 4 and 55 mm for a type 1

BTW, plenty of people are running the 2 inch ( 50.8mm) chevy ( actually Buick 215 ci) journal in both engines.

Posted by: Chuck Jul 3 2008, 12:52 PM

I bought my car with the express purpose of doing a suby conversion. I now have a 3.2 six in a crate that will complete the restoration of my GT clone. It is your car but I would list my personal choices as: 1)Porsche 6; 1a) Jake's IV; 2) subie; 3) everything else.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 3 2008, 01:09 PM

Nothing wrong with Rabbit rods at all... Some of the first big 4s I designed used them.
There are better rods on the market today that use different rod journals that are my choice.

I tend to like longer rods in a TIV as well, retaining a 1.75:1 rod ratio is typically my goal for engines living below 7500 Revs.

The 165 up 2056 uses a 5.325 length rod (Porsche 356 length) coupled to the stock 71mm stroke and a T1 journal for strength.

The Gen2 MassIVe engines larger than 2.8l use a Honda Fit rod journal.. The same for my RS 2100 356 based engine.

We all have different thoughts.. That's what makes an engine have its character.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 3 2008, 02:52 PM

What will you guys do for heads? Anything special to get 8000 RPM? Does the Hamilton Engineering AX car rev that high? Wow had no idea those motors were reving so high?

Is the current motor in the Hamilton car only a 2.0? If it is its damn impressive. It runs just as fast as the Raby 2.4 in our area and has way more top end. Its clear that the extra stroke is far better approach. That motor has great torque from what I have seen.

My six is a stroker as well and now that I have figured out exhaust issue just last month it makes great low end power. Hey you notice that my car is a little faster lately?

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 3 2008, 03:29 PM

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 3 2008, 03:41 PM

Creating an 8,000 RPM 2 liter is a lot easier than an 8,00 RPM 2.4 liter.

Our off the shelf LE 200 heads have enough flow for 8,000 RPM as they flow just a tad less than the E production heads on Kevin Groots engine that revs clear to 8,500 RPM and is stock stroke with a 95mm bore per the SCCA rule book. Thats a 207 HP engine from 2013cc.

The rules have changed in ECTA this year, allowing up to 2015cc from the 2.0 class. This will allow me to build a budget 71X95 bored engine for Land Speed Racing where RPM is everything. I plan on running a very small chambered LE 200 twin plug head, 51mm carbs and see if we can top 155 MPH. That will take 9,000 RPM sustained...

Big engines, especially those with stroke enhancements make their power lower and thats why the 2374 AX combo is so effective. With an 82mm stroke and a 96mm bore that combo really rips in AX.

The stock stroke has lots of benefits, especially since the right rod and piston combo can create an engine more narrow and lighter than stock.

There are many ways to design these engines..

Posted by: michaelt55 Jul 3 2008, 03:43 PM

LOL..."God complex" in my field we call that transference. You have a pretty opinionated post so I am going to watch this thread. ME in training? I assume that is mechanical engineer? I own a low cg V8 that weighs the same as a 4, its all aluminum and its pretty stout. I don't run autox but I believe the driver is the biggest asset there. Grant and Jake don't always agree but I like to read their posts to hear what they have to say on a technical level. Grants a great source of info and Jake is always trying to improve his product. You, on the other hand seems sort of angry and out of place here. ....just my 2 cents....

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 3 2008, 05:46 PM

We're using custom ported 1.8 heads ( no welding or anything crazy ), a stock 2.0 camshaft, Nology ignition system. The rods are longer, but the stroke is still the same as the stock 2.0 ( I think the displacement comes out to 1971cc or so ). The highest we've taken it was once at Santa Rosa where the finish was that sort of off-camber turn right by the exit to the track, and andrew couldn't find any decent place to shift. We have a mallory tach with rev-limiter, and we ended up turning it up to about 8,250.

If you wanna feel it, come ride with me at the next autocross.

Did notice you've been closer to us lately. We thought it must have been our old tires ( we bought them to run the parade 07 ).

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 3 2008, 07:12 PM

The Boxster & 996 engines are history. Porsche's new motor ain't gonna use that POS crank saddle that cause them so much trouble. Split case much like the old 9eleben engine with a wet sump from what I hear. WC of course.

Posted by: jd74914 Jul 3 2008, 07:33 PM

Cliff, lets hear some more about the Paulter rodded beast?

IMHO dyno charts are better than words. Speculation is nice but it only takes you so for. A good ME knows that numbers are good tools when making comparisons .

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 3 2008, 08:45 PM

Do you mean Pauter? As in the Pauter super pro engine?
They're into the 6-second 1/4 miles!

edit, I'm wrong, only 7.1 seconds: http://www.pauter.com/racing_news2.htm

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 3 2008, 09:04 PM

Really Jim? This thread was about choosing between a 225hp Raby big four and a 325hp Subaru. If we're to go strictly by the numbers then that question's been settled, without even getting into the additional initial cost, maintenance, and shorter life of the big four. And more. If numbers and charts are really better than words then Jake should be quiet and just post dyno charts and price quotations, which we can then compare with the Subaru's. Is that what you meant?

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 3 2008, 09:43 PM

That would be cool! I would defintely like to see what the motor feels like in the car!

Does your dad build motors for general public? He really has done an outstanding job with current motor in the Hamilton Engineering car. That motor pulls every bit as hard as that big Massive Raby powered car and has much much better top end. You guys have stomped some very high powered competition with those rabbit rod motors including the mongo 2.4 Raby motor car every event for the past two seasons. The Hamilton motors seem to be very tough as well. During the May AX Andrew was bumping off rev limiter on a couple sections every run. I'm just saying you guys should be supplying some of the hard core AX public with an option other than Raby motors. I think you guys are more realistic and certainly more humble.

I was on old tires from last year too! I like that we 914 guys are putting the hurt on everyone with old tires! I have never bought new tires and wont buy new tires until the Shoot out. I buy cheap used tires from people like Randal who had two year old tires and guy back East who had a set of take offs from last year for $80 each. I'm still learning Cantis as well I have only done 5 events on these tires so far.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 3 2008, 10:00 PM

I have an idea! Instead of a Subi or a Raby go for a Hamilton Engineering Rabiit Rod motor! That would make a crazy fast street car and provide perfect power plant for AX.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 3 2008, 10:04 PM

Well, he's supposed to be retired, but he just can't seem to kick the habit!

You should talk to him about the car at the next autocross.

I can also give you his phone number if you want to talk to him and maybe come by and check out some engines he's building right now.


edit: I also think that we need to give a lot of credit to Andrew for being a spectacular driver, and making our stuff look so good.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jul 4 2008, 01:33 AM

Sometimes you can have the best car in the world and still lose. A good driver is worth his weight in gold In our class the last AX a guy that has a stock 2.0l with, exception to a bigger front anti-sway, came within 1.5 seconds of me and beat a 914-6, a full suspension 914 Eurospec, a well setup 2.0l, and a well set up 924. He is amazing to watch as he just flows through the course.

So I guess sometimes you need to make sure you have the same driver when judging what engine is better in a car.

Posted by: Spoke Jul 4 2008, 07:18 AM

Back to the original question: Big 4 or Subi; It depends on what you want to do with your car as many have already mentioned.

If you want as much HP as possible AND you like to fabricate stuff, then go Subi or V8.

If you're ok with excellent HP (~200) for your 914, then go Big 4. This could be a drop in replacement and then back to I prefer this route because:
A) I want to drive my 914 more than work on it
I don't have oodles of time to do the fab work required for a Subi.

About racing Mustangs off the line, I think you'll also need a different tranny that was designed for quick shifting. The 901 doesn't seem to be that good for quick shifts especially from 1st to 2nd.

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 4 2008, 09:01 AM

O.K. if those are the criteria then:

B. Since Renegade sells a kit for those two options they're both pretty much bolt-in, no "fabrication" required. And in any case since the Raby motor costs so much more you could have someone else put either one in and still be thousands ahead.
A. If engine maintenance is done according to the factory schedule you'd be driving the Soob a lot more than you'd be driving any big four, and could get it fixed at most any dealership. Or just bolt in another one, they're cheap. The Raby motor, on the other hand, would get fixed in Georgia.

You'd be driving the Soob a lot longer too, since even their turbo motors go 200,000 miles. That motor will probably outlast your car. With 100 more horsepower the whole time. I don't know the average life expectancy of a 2.8, but it's going to be a fraction of that.

Let me repeat that: with 100 more horsepower the whole time.

But some of what's said about big fours is not technically correct. They aren't just bolt-in. Any big increase in HP requires improvements in suspension and brakes AS WELL as chassis reinforcement. That means cutting and welding on your car, and that's going to be the same for whatever big engine is chosen, the Raby, Sooby, or 911. So for any dramatic horsepower increase you're giving up your car's concours future. If it ever actually had one.

Posted by: jimkelly Jul 4 2008, 09:39 AM

all i can say is that we are very lucky to be able to face this dilema - thanks to renegade hybrids out west and jake down south : ))

i wanted a v8 ever since seeing a piece about rod simpson back when i was a kid. my car was a $1500 ebay buy with some rust and other needs. probably best to stick with jake for the more original cars - but feel free to cut that baby up if it has no chance ever of winning a concours event : ))

hey - who the hell stuffed that v8 into my ride : ))

PS - either way - start by bringing your suspension and brakes at least up to properly functioning stock.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 4 2008, 10:36 AM

Never mentioned is the sound of a V8 car. People do double-takes. Everybody recognizes that sound and it should NOT be coming out of that little car.

Posted by: jimkelly Jul 4 2008, 11:21 AM

the sound - absolutley - just last week i used my v8 914 to check on some of my real estate listings - to see if any of my signs had fallen/etc - as i was driving away from one property a guy flagged me down about two propeties away - we started talking and he repeated - i saw you drive by and the sound did not match the car. he - at one time had a buick v6 in a triumph stag. i stepped on it a bit as i left him and shifted one gear - then let off - as i began to slow down, i looked to my left down the street and there were about 6 cop cars dealing with a situation -whoa - glad i did not upshift one more time : ))

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 4 2008, 11:36 AM

Sixes are pretty sweet sounding too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVG7EqVPK1w

Posted by: jimkelly Jul 4 2008, 01:23 PM

i doubt anyone disagrees with you that six-es sound sweet too.

my v8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9viaGK6NA7M

shit - if no one would see me - i might even drive one around town : ))

jim

v8 kit renegade=$2000
radiator kit renegade=$1000
v8 sbc crate engine and goodies $3000
brake parts eric shea=$1000
suspension bits=$1000
beer for buddies to help install=priceless (aka: $8k + beer)
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Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 4 2008, 05:13 PM

A good running smallblock chevy v8 with a nice set of headers and mufflers accelerating around 6800rpm is a sound like no other car makes. Anyone considering a v8 needs to check out the edelbrock pro-flo EFI system also.