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Posted by: james2 Jul 4 2008, 12:32 PM

I have a 2332cc Type 1 engine. It dyno'd at 210 hp and 200 ft-lbs of torque on jake Raby's dyno.

Would I be viewed as a total hack if i put this in a 914?

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 4 2008, 01:39 PM

I'd love to see it. I wish more people would go down this path and get setup that would work. There are so many more resources for T1's. I have a great resource for T1's builds .....no more megabuck T4's.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jul 4 2008, 01:45 PM

No, I don't think that you would be a hack.

Do it, post up picks, and let us knwo how it drives.

Zach

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 4 2008, 01:51 PM

The type I has FAR more research and development put into high performance applications. I'd love to put them into my porsches, but the local porsche club says that would relegate me to running in the "non-porsche" class at the autocross.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 4 2008, 01:58 PM

James, You should do it..
The biggest challenge will be cooling it, since the TI has 26% less cooling surface area than that of the TIV and the 914 is typically 600 pounds heavier than a beetle with much taller gearing.. With these 3 negative aspects, not even the DTM you have from me on that engine will be adequate, more than likely..

Twin plugs will help... The first production twin plug TIs are leaving Heaven in about 3 weeks :-)

Posted by: james2 Jul 4 2008, 02:08 PM

well, I know the type 4 is better engine, it has the ability to shed more heat, and also has a superior long block.

The type 4 is a Zippo, and the type 1 is a BIC.

The advantage to the type 1 is it's cheap HP. I could use this engine until i built a proper type 4. Unlike other engine conversion, it would be completely reversible.

The other advantage is i have it on hand, sitting unused and it's double the hp of the stocker.

I don't think the type 1 could replace the type 4 in terms of reliability or longevity.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 4 2008, 02:11 PM

Do it... I can help you convert the clutch arrangement to function correctly.

Let me drive it. I bet I can break it before I get off the road in front of the shop :-)

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jul 4 2008, 02:24 PM

My thoughts? I cannot tell a lie. I think it's a dumb idea, and it's gonna cost a lot more time and effort than it's worth. The Cap'n

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 4 2008, 03:02 PM

So run in fun class? The guys who AX buggies down at Marina go through a motor about every two years, but they are only spending about $1500 to rebuld them. And these are crazy drag motors! Their cars do 12's and high 11's in the quarter mile. Think about that compared to cost of typical big bore T4. We have joked about putting a T1 in my car, but now that I think of it. ...hmmmm

And scary thing is even I can rebuild a T1.

I'm thinking about talking to buggy guys to see what we might do. I'd love to be renegade T1 914.

So curious what is definition of a Porsche engine? How is rabbit rod motor considered Porsche motor? How are modified heads that arent factory considered Porsche?

Posted by: james2 Jul 4 2008, 03:13 PM

LOL, thanks!!!

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 4 2008, 03:16 PM

"...leaving Heaven..."

Huh? Are you talking about Georgia?

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 4 2008, 05:08 PM

If you want to build power with a type I and have it last, talk to http://autocraftengines.com/

They've won a lot of races with their engines over the years.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 4 2008, 05:11 PM

As in Aircooled Heaven, AKA RAT.

We have been supplying a ton of TI production engines for the folks at Beck for their Speedsters and Spyders.. These twin plug engines are going into their cars, making 160 HP from 1914cc.

A lightweight 550 replica doesn't need a mondo reliable TIV, they don't see 5K miles in 10 years most of the time.

Posted by: gregrobbins Jul 4 2008, 05:17 PM

Jake, how are you dealing with the heat issue in the 550? I imagine they are only 1500 lbs or so, still I would guess cooling the motor is important.

Posted by: dw914er Jul 4 2008, 05:20 PM

Ive also seen a 9 second fiat with a T4

I personally wouldnt want to see a Beetle motor in a 914 (the 914 has had enough self esteem issues already), but if you have the motor already built, it would just be some modifications to get it to fit, so I guess It wouldnt be that bad to do

If you do it, post some pics of the conversion

Posted by: dw914er Jul 4 2008, 05:20 PM

Ive also seen a 9 second fiat with a T4

I personally wouldnt want to see a Beetle motor in a 914 (the 914 has had enough self esteem issues already), but if you have the motor already built, it would just be some modifications to get it to fit, so I guess It wouldnt be that bad to do

If you do it, post some pics of the conversion

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 4 2008, 05:29 PM

Have you ever used the heads made by claudes buggies?

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 4 2008, 06:27 PM

Oh no. "Aircooled Heaven", where you're in charge...

Tell me it ain't so, Jake. We didn't think good things about that guy who thought you had a God complex.... now it turns out... oh my...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 4 2008, 06:42 PM

FWIW- A customer of mine named the shop that when he visited in 1999.. With the shop sitting atop a huge chunk of Granite it kinda fits.

The Owner is typically in charge, correct? I pay the taxes on that chunk of ground and sign the paychecks, so you bet I am in charge.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 4 2008, 07:36 PM

Crankcase and transmission case were originally delivered in Porsche-badged vehicles. I think that's how the local PCA figures it.

--DD

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 4 2008, 08:19 PM

.... now it turns out... oh my... that you BELIEVE it! Yesss... now things are becoming clear...

...so do you prefer that's spelled with a capital G?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 4 2008, 09:03 PM

To smart asses like you, its Mr.

Old age hasn't been kind to you, has it?

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 5 2008, 07:27 AM

Old enough to have seen it all, thank you, and no, that's not a bad thing. But those are your words Jake, not mine. I just pay attention.

So it's a capital "G" then?

Posted by: RJMII Jul 5 2008, 12:31 PM

It's ALWAYS a capital "G".

You wouldn't want us to spell it "texas", would you? or "tX". that would just look funny.


Hmm... I think I figured out the real reason Jake likes the "GA" case.

oops, did I hijack a hijacking?


So is the type 1 going to go into the 914? I'd like to see pictures, especially if Jake is involved in anyway...




How long is the road in front of the shop? I want to know how much space you're giving yourself to break it.

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 5 2008, 12:49 PM

Does that one get driven to event? Buggies I'm talking about are street legal.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 5 2008, 01:18 PM

How's this for a decent type I?

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 5 2008, 01:30 PM

Cool!

Posted by: SirAndy Jul 5 2008, 02:07 PM

except, it says "T3/T4 Hybrid" on the chart ...
Andy

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 5 2008, 02:09 PM

So what is a T3/T4 hybrid? T4 case and T3 heads?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 5 2008, 02:33 PM

well since a T3 uses TI heads and TI heads won't fit on a T4 I'd say that they are referring to a T3-T4 hybrid Garrett Turbo.
This uses a T3 compressor and a T4 discharge. Damn Grant, I would have expected more from you.

A TI into a 914 would free up more 914 cores for transplant into RI vehicles, which is where the engine really shines. I think it would make a great AX combo since longevity is of no concern.

I have a 220 HP twin plug NA TI combo that rocks...With the guys at Beck buying so many engines from us I have started making our own parts. The guys over at Bugpack are also making parts for us and working together on R&D to make better parts.

Anything to keep the radiator away!

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 5 2008, 02:54 PM

Oh so it is a T1. Thats even cooler! Damn more reason to go for a T1 motor powered car.

Posted by: dw914er Jul 5 2008, 04:59 PM

its street legal, but barely.

Its a rather cool car, but just saying it can be done

Posted by: kwales Jul 5 2008, 08:40 PM

With at turbo.

Strap a turbo on a dog and it will go faster.

Without it would be a much fairer comparison.

Turbo- the crutch for ineffcient engines.

Ken

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 5 2008, 09:23 PM

So it's MISTER "God" Raby then? Or MISTER Raby, the God? Sorry dude, Jake, but that just sounds wrong...





What? I'm pretty sure that neither a dyno nor your transaxle knows if there's a turbo on that "inefficient" engine or not. But they both sure know more horsepower when they see it.

Posted by: kwales Jul 5 2008, 09:40 PM

Paul,

It says it's a 2332cc turbo injected engine- aka it needs a crutch to get that level of efficiency and power.

If power levels are equal, a turbo engine will never be as efficient as a non-turboed engine. Car manufacturers such as Volvo have been doggy engines and boosting their output with a turbo. Take off the turbo, and it's still a dog.

Putting it another way, the power of that 2332cc turbo engine is WAYYYYY less without the turbo.

Ken

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 5 2008, 09:55 PM

I'm sorry, but I can't agree that a turbo does anything but make an engine more efficient. You are returning wasted energy to the engine.

Try telling buick grand national owners that their turbos are a crutch! How about 962 owners? The list goes on and on.

Posted by: kwales Jul 5 2008, 10:16 PM

Turbo's and nitrous both boost output on an engine that cannot produce that power naturally.

It takes skill to get an extra 50 hp or more outa an engine by tweaking the heads, the ports, the valve sizes, and the exhaust- reliably. I first saw that with my friend's Formula Ford. For the Formula Ford cars, they took a Ford Cortina block, strapped Cosworth DOHC heads on it with a tuned exhaust and webers and it went from an anemic stock 75 hp up to a reliable 150 hp.

Could you strap a turbo on that 75 hp stock Cortina block and increase HP? Yep, but it will never perform like the ultra efficient Cosworth heads/exhaust combo. Well, maybe for a short time. With the stock combo, you would be blowing through a soda straw to try to overcome the flow resistances/inefficiencies of the stock engine (stock ports, heads and exhaust).

Ken

Posted by: grantsfo Jul 5 2008, 11:00 PM

But the motor is built for dynamics of boosted intake, of course its less effiecient than a naturally aspirated motor in unboosted state? Its not a crutch as much as its a motor designed to be turbocharged?

Car manufactures use turbos for vareity of reasons. It is a way to save weight and provide excellent driveability with lower cost small displacement motors. I look at my 2.3 turbo Mazda as great example, it puts out 280ft ft lbs of toque at 3000 RPM and makes 275 HP Thats similar to a V8 motor with over twice as much displacement.

For me it comes down to what is lightest package that puts put most HP for the least amount of $$$$ and maintains some level of reliability. Thats why I like T1 idea.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 5 2008, 11:08 PM

Any form of forced induction breeds efficiency.. Without boost its hard to get more than 100% VE from an engine thats aircooled with less than 11:1 CR, however I have been able to squeeze 122% from the 1500cc Land Speed engine that currently holds the ECTA record.

An engine that performs best without boost, typically won't have the optimum CR and combo for boost so doing a back to back comparison is difficult. The best back to back I have done is a stock 2.0 that made 88 HP N/A made 160 with less than 10 PSI boost with no other changes and non intercooled.

All other engines I have boosted tend to make double their N/A output at 1 Bar boost. I have two Turbos on deck now, one is a twin plug 2332 TI with a dual ceramic ball bearing Turbo and the other is a single plug 2.1 L TIV using an 82 stroke and 91mm bore with a T2/T3 hybrid custom Turbo that is also dual ceramic ball bearing.. I expect both these low CR, mild cammed engines to make less than 140 HP N/A and both over 300 at 1 Bar boost. Both are made for low revving applications that need smooth power and little lag.

The last Turbo I built was 80X100 and made 283 HP @ 10 PSI boost with 340 lb/ft of torque..

Posted by: jmill Jul 5 2008, 11:35 PM

I've built 2 1914's. They're the best bang for the buck in my opinion. The 62 bug I put the second one in would lift the front wheels. That's after I put on larger fenders and ran 8" rims. I would regularly blow the doors off my buddies Turbo'd Integra. I remember the first time I beat him. He was so pissed that he had more $ in his engine than I had in my entire Bug and he still got smoked.

Sigh.. those were the days.


http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1mw1.jpg

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 5 2008, 11:44 PM

The 1914 is my favorite TI.. 95% of the engines I build for Beck are 1915s.

For the Spyders the short stroke, high revving, peaky engines are perfect... Thats what the two twin plug engines I am building now are.. With our CNC heads they should make around 160 HP @ 10:1

I once built a 1915 for 150.00 in new parts and put 80 drag race passes on it.. I beat guys at the strip that had 18K in their Rice Rockets...

With boost I built one that made 205HP at the rear wheels.. That was 12 years ago.

Posted by: jmill Jul 5 2008, 11:57 PM

Here's the first one. It was in a 64 Kombi. I put in a bus boys select a drop and eliminated the reduction boxes. This one I bunny hopped in front of the house and broke an axle. My friends told me when I stomped on it the rear tire came off the ground a foot. You can see the cheesy carb linkage. I learned that you needed to spend some money on a decent linkage to keep the carbs sync'd.




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Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 5 2008, 11:59 PM

Don't do it, it'll be too fast!

Speaking of the Type-I's reliability, my dad's have placed in the top 4 of the La Carrera Panamericana for a few years in a row. ( before their civil war thing , nobody wants to race when you're getting shot at )

If that isn't a true test of an engine, I don't know what is.

Posted by: jmill Jul 6 2008, 12:09 AM

I say go for it. If folks can throw in V8's why can't you toss in a T1.

I built the bus 17 years ago and the bug 14. I wish I still had that much hair. I'm sure Jake could hook you up with parts and ideas. I'm thinking a T1 with a Porsche style fan shroud and dual carbs would look quite sweet in your 914.

Heck, I forgot how long I was doing this stuff. I looked at the date on the photo I scanned and just about choked. Man I'm getting old.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2008, 12:19 AM

James already has the DTM cooling system on his engine..

Posted by: jmill Jul 6 2008, 12:34 AM

Dooooooooooo it!






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Posted by: RJMII Jul 6 2008, 12:46 AM

Out of curiosity; how do you keep your turbos cool? This Garret I have setting on the shop floor next to my project has these two lines going to it, one on top and one on bottom... and originally it had this really big thirst for green kool-aid of the ethylene glycol variety.

So how do you cool a turbo that comes from aircooled heaven? (the ceramic bearings must help a bit!)

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2008, 01:12 AM

The DTM does a very good job coupled to LN ENgineering Nickies. This is the 80X100 engine in the RAT lab. This engine is now in Saudi Arabia, in a 912E, believe it or not.



I'll only build a Turbo engine, either TI or TIV using Nickies. Its really easy to thermally overload an engine with boost and cast iron cylinders.

The first key is building an engine efficient enough not to generate a ton of heat and then to use components that can get the heat it does generate into the cooling air stream as fast as possible.

Without cooling capability, no cooling system can be effective.

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 6 2008, 09:53 AM

Look at the same thing from the other direction, Ken. Would that 2332 EVER be able to make 300 hp as a normally aspirated engine? Of course not. So the turbo was able to add about 100 horsepower, pulling more power out of the same assembly exactly because it was able to make it more efficient.

What you're saying is typical of the irritation of NA guys who have spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars improving the power of their NA engines by 40 percent, when they see somebody double their HP half the cost by adding a turbo. They're right, they've done a lot of good work, but bottom line is that other guy just DOUBLED his hp. Numbers don't lie, he's got twice the power for half the price. Dyno doesn't know there's a turbo there, nor his transaxle. That's a reasonably good deal, seems to me.

Actually I've had several of those turbo Volvos. A Cortina as well, though it was NA.

Posted by: ! Jul 6 2008, 10:04 AM

Yeah, but geez that heat issue can be a bitch. The T1 I have in my tube frame Speedster eventually needed two external 10 x12 coolers with fans in addition to the stock cooler in the doghouse and an intercooler.

NOW, it sees 200F on the highway doing 85mph and 190F at idle and cruisng down Main Street.....took me two years on a partime basis to get it right. It was fun but geez, a lot of work. A lot of BAD information out there. Especially on the Megasquirt controllers.

At least I didn't tank the motor....which I have done in the past....actually I DID tank it, but that was at the beginning and it turned into a favor. I found a LOT of stoopid things done by the previous owner.

On the T1 in a 914 specific application....I would think the exhaust would be the most challenging as well as a workable heater.

Go for it, I'd like to see it.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2008, 11:27 AM

The TI would certainly only be a viable solution in a 914 for very limited street use.. 5th gear in a 914 with a TIV and it's 26% greater cooling surface area is a bitch, a TI in a 914 with a stock ZD 5th would be murder on head temps

remember:
OIL temp is not engine temp!! The two are hardly related and it is possible to kill an engine due to a head/valve related failure and never get the oil past 180F..

Cooling the oil does not and will not cool the heads.

Posted by: Paul Illick Jul 6 2008, 11:29 AM

Jeez Mike, with that many radiators you may as well have put in... a Subaru....

[to all you concours wonks that was a JOKE. I would NEVER seriously suggest that he soil his outlaw Speedster with anything non-Wolfsburg... ]

Posted by: RJMII Jul 6 2008, 11:32 AM

So is the turbo itself just kept cool with oil temperature regulation and low EGT from being efficient in the first place?

Posted by: ! Jul 6 2008, 11:58 AM

Y E S, Jake....I know that....but still a good point for those that don't.

I have an EGT, head temp, oil pressure/temp and a few other gauges that give me readings....my head temps always ran cool....325F across the board...I run an aviation type coupler that allows me to switch and read all four holes on one gauge. My EGT runs 800F-1000 depending if I'm under boost or not.

I limit it to one bar even though I can crank it up if I wanted to. The biggest issue is keeping the charge side sealed. I keep a water and Dawn soap solution ready to spritz the charge pipes at the unions looking for leaks and at the hats of the ITBs....the heads have been keeping sealed as they were prepped to take boost.

As to the coolers....I just needed another one to balance out the op temps at the temp I have set on the thermostat. It seems to like it now......

Funny how it gets more looks on the road than high digit REAL rides in this town....I can be in traffic and a Ferrari ahead of me and a XKE Jag beside me and "I" get the thumbs up or the click from the camera phone....wierd....dunno, might be my foil helmet.....

Posted by: james2 Jul 6 2008, 08:20 PM

Nickies.? Think that would do Jake?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2008, 08:24 PM

It would help as the thermal conductivity is 4X greater than cast iron...

I'll have a used set of 95mm TI Nickies ith custom JE pistons and Porsche rings coming from a test engine soon...

Posted by: james2 Jul 6 2008, 08:54 PM

Ah!, experienced parts. My favorite!

2382?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 6 2008, 09:01 PM

Yep.. BUT the guys at Beck might buy the whole engine.. You have first dibs if they don't buy it as is :-)