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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ On Topic: it's illegal to wash my 914
Posted by: nebreitling Jan 29 2004, 08:42 PM
i just recieved a "warning" from the university (i live in uni-owned grad housing) because i was caught... get this.... WASHING MY CAR. well, SHIT....
Apparently, it is now ILLEGAL to wash your own car in Palo Alto, under the assumption that trace amounts of oil and heavy metals will be carried into drains and gutters, and on into the bay. Palo Alto Sewer Ordinance 16.09.106
i bet i'm the only stanford phd who came in a liberal, and will come out a conservative.
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 08:44 PM
Welcome.
M
Posted by: zehrschnell914 Jan 29 2004, 08:55 PM
Welcome indeed! You are in good company. If you ever make it up to Portland look me up. I'd be happy to buy you ein Bier. 
Mike
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 29 2004, 08:59 PM
not much i hear about the People's Republik of Kalifornia surprises me any more; this doesn't ...
not to worry - next year, it will be illegal to drive your car, and the year after that, to own one. (might be used as a weapon, ya know. do it for the kids.)
Posted by: Mockmaw Jan 29 2004, 09:01 PM
Why not take it to an actual car wash or one of those places where you can wash it yourself?
You have the right to be annoyed, but I think it's a good law.
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 09:05 PM
Anecdotal evidence got you thinking again... someone without a job thought up a new statistic.
Global warming is cause by cigarettes, the flame of the lighters, and the smoke obscures the sun.
M
Posted by: Mockmaw Jan 29 2004, 09:07 PM
I hope that last statement was a joke. It sounds like you haven't the slightest how grave a problem it is.
I guess it doesn't matter for you, you'll be dead before the real bad stuff happens. But your kids, and grandkids, and their kids won't.
Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 29 2004, 09:09 PM
must be alot of dirty cars in palo alto. i take it there is 0 crime on campus.
kevin
Posted by: PatW Jan 29 2004, 09:10 PM
Welcome to my world. Too bad about your car. Next they'll tell you not to take a f'in shower...
Pat
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 09:11 PM
I wouldn't have kids in this world, if the government paid me with money ripped from the hands of people with measley jobs..... wait.. 
I was joking, I also left out the part about second-hand smoke affecting non-smokers more than smokers, I guess much in the same way that people witnessing a tragic death, are affected by it, more than the person who was killed..
He's dead, Jim.
I refuse to be indoctrinated.
M
Posted by: Mockmaw Jan 29 2004, 09:15 PM
Haha, you make the liberal left sound like a cult.
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 09:28 PM
You do too!
M
Posted by: Mockmaw Jan 29 2004, 09:29 PM
Hahah!
Posted by: VegasRacer Jan 29 2004, 09:30 PM
As of Jan. 1 it is illegal to wash your car in your driveway in Las Vegas. You can still go to a commercial car wash. This law has also created a new booming business. There are guys with the proper permits that have spray tanks on trailers that will come to your house and wash it for you.
Now if I want to build a swimming pool, that is OK. 
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 29 2004, 09:34 PM
Us red necks can wash whatever we want when we want. We just don't want too. :finger2:
Trucks are supposed to be dirty, Smoking vehicles kill more mosquitos 
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 09:37 PM
We have a saying around here, but I don't remember it, the CLFA content in the food chain has taken it's toll on my short term ummm.... umm...
Oh yeah... merry go round.... how we used to love to ride that thing.
M
Posted by: itsa914 Jan 29 2004, 10:31 PM
OK, I don't get it. Don't they have water treatment plants in CA? I live in NorthWest Indiana by Lake Michigan, we have 5 major steel mills and get this....
Water treatment plants
Doesn't the sewer water get "treated / filtered"
before it heads out to the bay?? What about all
the oil and crap the is washed off the streets
after a rain does it just go straight to the Bay?
- Garold
Posted by: James Adams Jan 29 2004, 10:46 PM
Did you see Palo Alto Sewer Ordinance 16.09.105?
It is illegal for it to rain in Palo Alto, under the assumption that trace amounts of oil and heavy metals will be carried into drains and gutters, and on into the bay.
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 10:55 PM
The human body is one of the best filters EVER created!
It can take the piss out of Budweiser.
Anything up a hill, is going to go down the hill, whether it does it today, tomorrow, or 50 years from now. The oils, and heavy metals on that car came from down the hill, and back they'll go... whether you wash it off, or it falls off, and washes there itself.
People should not use detergents on car finishes... make that a law, make it a law that you can only use sea water... deep sea water... AT SEA! No smoking, don't eat a hamburger!~
M
Posted by: KaptKaos Jan 29 2004, 11:07 PM
Welcome to the practical world.
Posted by: Howard R Jan 29 2004, 11:11 PM
With water restrictions here at the moment you can't wash your car using a garden hose, but you can wash using a watering can and use twice as much water as with a garden hose!! Work that out.
Posted by: redshift Jan 29 2004, 11:17 PM
back in the day.... before hoses were invented, we used to make a spit brigade... from the sink, to the car, only to subvert the local ordinances.. about washing our cars.
I loved being on the sink end.
"Washing THIS car, Officer? Why? No, I was spitting on it!"
M
Posted by: fiid Jan 29 2004, 11:25 PM
I guess it doesn't matter for you, you'll be dead before the real bad stuff happens. But your kids, and grandkids, and their kids won't.
The current real problem is more like the enormous amount of fuel burned with no catalytic converters or emissions control by the airline industry.
Washing your car (or not) is far down the list of things we ought to be worried about environmentally, quite frankly.
Posted by: fiid Jan 29 2004, 11:30 PM
Water treatment plants
Doesn't the sewer water get "treated / filtered"
before it heads out to the bay?? What about all
the oil and crap the is washed off the streets
after a rain does it just go straight to the Bay?
- Garold
I think in CA, all runoff water goes straight to the bay. I belive sewage gets treated.
CA is WAY behind on infrastructure like this - the roads here are pretty crappy and sparse. Our power system - you will have heard about. I believe since we are a big state, with a lot of environmental and social progression we don't have the money to invest in infrastructure upgrades, plus the organisational culture here is very much "focus on what you can change easily and ignore the rest", which I believe is responsible for the fact that the government here is even less efficient than everywhere else. We have the second highest income tax rate in the country after NY, don't we??
Still - personally - I love taxation without representation. It's my favorite meal of the day.
Posted by: Bruce Allert Jan 30 2004, 12:15 AM
[quote=fiid,Jan 29 2004, 10:30 PM]
- Garold [/QUOTE]
I think in CA, all runoff water goes straight to the bay. I belive sewage gets treated.
[/quote]
Most areas have the runoff going to streams, rivers, lakes & oceans however, there is a push in some areas to have it diverted to the wastewater treatment plants. This is going to take a long time to accomplish. As for the car wash ban due to what comes off the body of the car, that's pretty minimal compared to what is already on the streets. I've also seen a lot of idiots dumping their changed motor oil into the storm drains.
I guess the City has got to start somewhere. I think it's the wrong "somewhere" tho. "Bandaid"
.......b
Posted by: Red-Beard Jan 30 2004, 12:15 AM
Well, having lived in both NY and Cali, I think I got more money for my tax dollar in NY. There were lots of state parks everywhere, they were well maintained. The State owned and operated the largest wildlife and forever wild area in the United States (Except Alaska).
Posted by: Curvie Roadlover Jan 30 2004, 04:13 AM
It is illegal for it to rain in Palo Alto, under the assumption that trace amounts of oil and heavy metals will be carried into drains and gutters, and on into the bay.
Who pays the fine when it rains?
Posted by: scottb Jan 30 2004, 05:08 AM
it is for silly rules and regs like these that when i build my next house, it will have a 4 car garage with perimeter drains all around and a hose bib at every stall. with hot AND cold water. gonna wash my damn car inside and never tell a soul!!!!
'hey marge, why is that boys car always so gol' dern clean?'
'it's a mystery. just a mystery.'
Posted by: ! Jan 30 2004, 07:11 AM
Water treatment plants
Doesn't the sewer water get "treated / filtered"
before it heads out to the bay?? What about all
the oil and crap the is washed off the streets
after a rain does it just go straight to the Bay?
- Garold
We have water treatment plants for waste water from homes, factories etc.........but the crap on the streets gets washed down "storm drains" that drain direct to the ocean. So.....the point is, anything dumped in the storm drains, oil, dirt, pesticides, human waste....goes into the streams or storm drains....right offshore the fecal coliform levels quadruple after a rain.....makes surfing interesting.....
Posted by: seanery Jan 30 2004, 08:10 AM
That is a 100% total BULLSHIT law! I'd write letters to my congressman and call him a pussy for allowing something that totally retarded to pass!
Posted by: seanery Jan 30 2004, 08:11 AM
Oh, I hope you can write Spanish, cause he may not be able to read/write English!
Posted by: ! Jan 30 2004, 08:17 AM
The "HEY STOOPID" signs that are posted on the bridges and storm drains are in Spanish and English.
Posted by: DNHunt Jan 30 2004, 08:36 AM
I tried to build a detached garage with a drain in the slab. The guy who ispected the footings said I would have to include an oil separator and get another permit.
I took the drain out.
Dave
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 30 2004, 09:50 AM
Yeah, I have installed those oil separator drains before for garages. Pretty simple really, and they do work.
'Course when I was a kid and my dad changed the oil we dumped it in the street drain! There was no recycling.
Geoff
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 30 2004, 10:00 AM
You Cali guys laugh at our cold weather...WE laugh at your stooopid rules, high taxes, high housing costs, pea soup smog, lack of fresh water, crime, Michael Jackson, etc., etc., and so-on...
They don't bug us much out here in the country.
BTW I have my own water treatment plant...it's called a septic system.
I also have my own spring water source...a well.
Posted by: jonwatts Jan 30 2004, 10:43 AM
What does washing your car have to do with fecal levels in the seawater (unless the car you're washing is a piece of sh!t)??
Posted by: ! Jan 30 2004, 10:45 AM
Think fertilizer.....the car washing stuff has crud from the roads, like oil and other contaminated soot. Car washes trap this stuff, filter a lot on site and then release the waste water to drains that go thru the water treatment plant.
So, makes sense in a way...but there should be a clause that would allow self washing on a lawn on something....
Posted by: kwales Jan 30 2004, 10:54 AM
Heck,
I just go to the store, buy a can of tuna, rub the oil on the car and let the cat lick it!
Works for me!!!
Ken
Posted by: airsix Jan 30 2004, 10:59 AM
This so cracks me up. Ok, so you can't wash your car because it will release polutants into the drainage? What pollutants? Road grime perhaps? Where does the road grime come from? Uh.... THE ROAD. And what happens when it rains? Uh... the road gets washed. Do these dumb $h!+$ know what the road is made out of? Ever seen a road crew doing a seal coat with oil & chips? Do you know what's coming out of that spray-bar? Seen the guys sealing cracks? Do you know what that goo is they're pressing into the seams? And you can't wash your car. MORONS! You are governed by MORONS. You have my deepest sympathy (unless you are one of the liberals who voted for them). If that liberal comment offends you then listen carefully: DOING THE RIGHT THING TAKES MORE THAN JUST GOOD INTENTIONS. This car washing law is an example of people who had good intentions (less pollution) and passed a useless ordinance to make themselves feel better about it.
-Ben M.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 11:00 AM
New York doesn't have to provide schooling and medical services to that many illegal Canadians...
and isn't trying nearly so hard to drive businesses out of the state...
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 11:11 AM
the oil and crap the is washed off the streets
after a rain does it just go straight to the Bay?
most of it goes straight into the bay. the sewer gutters actually have little signs on them telling you that all the crap you see in there will in fact go straight into the bay.
at least they let you know ...
Andy
Posted by: ! Jan 30 2004, 11:16 AM
Well, the rule is also coupled with mandantory street sweeping.....BTW....most of this is driven by FEDERAL Law....not the local wackos. Some Cities are taking their sweet time getting into local ordinances.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 11:16 AM
I also have my own spring water source...a well.
so, doesnt that mean, if you wash your car in the driveway you'll drink that crapolla later ???
Andy
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 11:18 AM
and here in the East, the tons of road salt go - back to the ocean from which it came !
Posted by: Brett W Jan 30 2004, 11:53 AM
I am so glad I don't live in California. I would spend my day pissing off the sorry ass liberals. I want the government out of my life and taxes. I'll pay taxes to have my roads paved, (with tar which is petroleum based), my borders defended, and my enemies asses kicked. I do not want to pay to educate someone elses kid, feed some worthless wellfare junky, treat illegal aliens with some great "by your leave sir", etc. Let me govern my self within the bounds of civilized human decency. Let me drive my teener, wash my teener, fix my teener with out having to get a permit for any of the above. I can live with car registration.
As far as pollution goes, Mt St Helens puked more crap into the atmosphere than have all of the cars in the last 50 years. Enough about global warming. It is warming becaause we are getting closer to the sun and we will all burn up one day, but you know what Who cares I will have long assumed room temperature and won't give a shit.
Yes this is the attidute that has gotten us to this point, SO WHAT.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jan 30 2004, 11:56 AM
Move to Mountain View, I am only 10-15 mins from you and I don't have to deal with that crap.
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 12:32 PM
It's true that there is a reasonable amount of shite that builds up on cars (and the street beneath) that will get washed into the sea when you wash your car. The detergent from a car wash will pull oil out of the road surface on it's way out as well. My argument is more around the fact that there is an awful lot of worse pollutants out there - mostly in big business.
For those of you who think California sucks though - I offer this:
And finally, New Rule: Lay off California! [laughter] [applause] You know, the rest of America has been having quite a laugh at California’s expense lately. But let’s remember this: California has a lot of people. [laughter] And the reason it does is lots of other people in other states saying, “Fuck this, I’m outta here!” [laughter] [applause]
And then those people come here to California, and people ask them, “Don’t you miss the winters?” [laughter] No, strangely enough, I don’t. [laughter] Much the same way I don’t miss slamming a car door on my hands. [laughter]
Make fun of California, but if it weren’t for California, East Coast rappers would have to shoot musicians from Branson. [laughter] [applause]
If it weren’t for California, there’s be almost no TV, and you’d have to come home at night and actually talk to your family. [laughter] [applause]
You know, the rest of America feels about California the way the rest of the world feels about America. They hate us because we do what we want. They think we’re too blessed and too free, and it makes them nuts in the dreary hovels of Kabul and Tikrit and Lubbock, Texas. [laughter] [applause]
They pray to their threadbare gods that we’ll get what we deserve. But it won’t happen. [laughter] Because you never know what we’re going to do here next. We elected Ronald Reagan and Jerry Brown. [laughter] [applause]
We’re home to Disney and Hustler, the Partridge Family and the Manson Family. [laughter] We can drink a Mudslide and a Sex on the Beach during an actual mudslide while having sex on the beach! [laughter] [applause]
Our farms feed the world, and Calista Flockhart lives here. [laughter]
We have bears and great white sharks. And even our washed-up actors are allowed to kill one blonde chick. [laughter] [groans]
We invented surfing and cyber-porn and LSD and the boob job. And if we didn’t, we would haven. [laughter]
We have oranges, free oranges, everywhere. What grows on the trees in Scranton, fucker?! [laughter] [applause]
We have a real hockey team named after a hockey team in a movie! [laughter]
Our Indian casinos could kick your Indian casinos’ ass. [laughter]
We give our illegal aliens driver’s licenses. [laughter] And we have a guy running for governor who digs group sex. [laughter] [applause]
Would anywhere else in America trade places with L.A. or San Francisco in a piss-soaked New York minute? You bet they would. Because I don’t recall anyone ever writing a song called “I Wish They All Could Be Rhode Island Girls”! [laughter] [applause]
Posted by: KaptKaos Jan 30 2004, 01:31 PM
California does suck. Don't make any mistakes. As for the jokes about people leaving their states to come to California, understand that if it were not for illeagal immigration, California would have a huge DROP in population. Nevada and Arizona are getting the people. You know why? The weather is comparable and they have less taxes. Businesses are FLEEING California (as will mine one day) becuase the cost to do business here, live here, work here, raise a family here in a decent middle-class neighborhood is so high that average income earners can not live here.
So save me your tripe about people coming to California. Illegal immigrants are coming to California because we give away every benefit that we can. That is why California is not shrinking in population, and it is the only reason.
Mark my words, in 5 to 10 years, unless something drastic is done, California will be a third world state. There are too few supporting too many and something has got to give.
"Who is John Galt?"
Posted by: Bruce Allert Jan 30 2004, 01:41 PM
Mark my words, in 5 to 10 years, unless something drastic is done, California will be a third world state.
When that happens property prices will go down, standard of living will go down & beach front property will be affordable!
Another gold rush about to happen Go West young man, Go West...........b
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 01:42 PM
it'll take more than illegal immigrants to turn the 5th larges economy in the world into a 3rd world country.
have you actually ever been to a 3rd world country? (and i don't mean staying at a resort)
but i have to agree with your assessment of the overall (srewd up) politics around here.
and arnold won't help, i'm afraid ...
<_< Andy
Posted by: Scott Schroeder Jan 30 2004, 02:14 PM
Grew up in Newport and Villa ("Vanilla") Park (OC). I left in 1982 at 14 years old. Other than visiting remaining familly, I never have missed it. There is nothing that would bring me back - regardless of politics. I replaced the smell of the beach and watching the guys in the Dory fishing fleet with getting off of a chair at the top of Vail. Don't get me wrong, I had a killer child hood - I miss the fire rings on the beach, I miss the time spent with friends scraping wax. It's just not the same as it was. In todays world would you let your 10 year old go under the pier after dark to pry of muscles to go fishing with? We used to on a regular basis.
I like the seasons here in CO, I love the outdoor lifestyle, and the people are very friendly for the most part. I am leaving the office at 3 today (friday) will be at the Dillon house by four, will take a couple of nite skiing runs, then fire up the BBQ. Tomorrow I'll be at Vail at 8am. We are expecting 10" of new snow up there tonight. Maybe throw down a bit of Goldschlager around 2:30 on the deck at Lionshead.
A perfect day...... 
In a few monthes we will wax and store the skis and do the exact same things - only with a mountian bike or hiking boots - and a cold Fat Tire!
Posted by: PatW Jan 30 2004, 02:22 PM
It can take the piss out of Budweiser.
You don't buy Beer. You Rent it.
Posted by: PatW Jan 30 2004, 02:27 PM
My mom and I used to drive from Irvine to Newport early in the morning to meet the Dory fleet. We'd buy fish right off the boat and watch it be cleaned and cut right in front us. Great memories.
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 02:34 PM
it'll take more than illegal immigrants to turn the 5th larges economy in the world into a 3rd world country.
have you actually ever been to a 3rd world country? (and i don't mean staying at a resort)
but i have to agree with your assessment of the overall (srewd up) politics around here.
and arnold won't help, i'm afraid ...
Andy 
I don't think CA is perfect, but it's got a lot going for it. The politics is a little screwey, but take a look at the rest of the country too. The politics in this country will be (and are) complety screwed and will remain so until corporations and special interests are no longer allowed to buy the government.
I think the Jury is still out on Arnie. I think it's fairly ridiculous that he is where he is; but the fact that he is there is a testament to democracy in a way. Since he is governor we might as well give him a chance to do something worthwhile.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 02:45 PM
OR,
it could also be a testament that democracy IS NOT working.
depending on how you look at it ...
if you can get elected because you PLAY a tought guy on TV
and people think that will somehow translate into indepth knowledge
on how to run a state, maybe those people should not be allowed to
elect a governor after all.
just a tought <_<
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 03:01 PM
ROTFL. You can put the power to the people (unless you are PG&E), but you can't make the people smart.
The last time this happened was Reagan, who everyone thought was senile, but turned out later to be somewhat intelligent (referrering to the recent publication of the letters).
I think part of the problem is that things here are really pretty good for most people, so noone really bothers worrying too much about politics - myself included - although that is helped along by the fact that I can't vote.
I don't know how to fix the world. I'll stick to organizing lunches. :-)
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 03:05 PM
democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on the menu; liberty is a well-armed sheep.
Posted by: makinson1 Jan 30 2004, 03:24 PM
Please inform the ignorant. I thought oil was biodegradable. And how much of what kinds of heavy metals? Are crooks allowed to use lead bullets or is that illegal in California too?
Posted by: airsix Jan 30 2004, 03:26 PM
Now where have I seen that quote before? he he
That's one of the big problems in my mind. Liberals want a democracy. A democracy is mob-rule. Mobs are stupid. Get them riled up and they'll stomp off to do almost anything. We live in a (diluted) republic. A republic insures that the fickle and emotionally whipsawed 'will of the people' is tempered and moderated by elected representation. That's why we have an electoral college. In the past, citizens didn't vote for president. Citizens elected state legistlatures who elected senetors, who elected presidents.
-Ben
Posted by: makinson1 Jan 30 2004, 03:34 PM
I think the Jury is still out on Arnie. I think it's fairly ridiculous that he is where he is; but the fact that he is there is a testament to democracy in a way. Since he is governor we might as well give him a chance to do something worthwhile.
If Arnold thinks he can take my guns away from me, he better really be the Terminator.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 04:00 PM
1 Liter of oil can contaminate 1.000.000 Liter of fresh water.
meaning, YOU get sick when you drink it ...
bio-degradeable is not a word i would use describing oil.
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 04:03 PM
so, we go from washing your car (or NOT) to taking your guns away (or NOT) ....
gotta love these OT-Threads ....
anything else?
Andy
Posted by: jkeyzer Jan 30 2004, 04:03 PM
Used motor oil especially has a ton of bad stuff in it.
I would be pissed if I couldn't wash my own car in my driveway.
They'd probably be REALLY mad if they knew I was rebuilding an engine in my backyard...
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 04:11 PM
in CA, each bullet has a teeny label warning you that it can cause cancer in survivors ...
but i kid you not - in LA County, you cannot buy ammunition the week before New Years - as if that would stop anyone who -really wanted- to engage in random celebratory gunfire from planning ahead and stocking up. but just this year in downtown Philadelphia a carful of guys fired full magazines of 9mm into the air. and the case against 'em is pretty strong, 'cause they had VIDEOTAPED it from inside the car, and the cops who pulled them over had no trouble watching the whole thing ...
but yeah - that's the thing - CA legislators haven't quite figured out that you can't count on criminals to obey the law ...
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 04:47 PM
ok, help me out here.
how does it help you and/or american society in general to be well armed?
for what purpose?
Andy
Posted by: rhilgers Jan 30 2004, 04:55 PM
Geez...You can still do it. Just park on the lawn or dirt area...
http://www.city.palo-alto.ca.us/cleanbay/residents.html
Wash cars on an unpaved surface where dirty water won't flow to a driveway, street, gutter or storm drain. Empty your bucket of soapy water into a sink or toilet. Better yet, use a commercial car wash.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 04:57 PM
Robert Heinlein said "an armed society is a polite society" and there's something to that. at Woodstock, John Sebastian said "a cloth house is all you need if you've got love" but he had it backwards - a cloth house is all you need if your neighbor has love.
California is an interesting area - law enforcement has repeatedly claimed it has no particular obligation to protect you. society in general, sure, but an individual "you" - nope. and yet they simultaneously want to deprive you of the right to defend yourself.
you've probably seen the sticker that says "fear the government that fears your guns." there's something to that.
if you don't want to be able to defend yourself, that's fine; you're free to choose to be a victim. but don't be so willing to impose that choice on others.
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 05:07 PM
i'm not trying to impose anything on anybody. <_<
i come from a country where owning a gun is illegal and crimes involving a gun are almost unheard of.
i am sincerely trying to understand your motivation.
my question was not rethorical by any means.
nor does your liberal/republican categorazation of people apply to me.
but going back to your reply, it seems that you neither fear democracy in general nor your government in particular,
but rather it is your fellow american citizen that gives you the feeling that you need to own a weapon.
is that correct?
Andy
Posted by: ! Jan 30 2004, 06:01 PM
The issue about guns is that once the government takes away the guns, only THEY have the guns....in countries where the civil liberties are less than guarenteed, this can be a bad thing. That's why they put in the right to bear arms back in the 1700's document called the Bill of Rights.
It is NOW such an ingrained right or privelege that most are loathe to give it up. Those that live in other countries where the right was taken away or never allowed don't understand.
You kinda had to be there....is the best way to describe it....
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 06:07 PM
Allright - I have one for you gun-advocates - I want your opinions on this - it's just something I have been thinking about recently.
I believe a lot of the same rationales for gun ownership also holds true for illegal drugs.
If people can own drugs freely then usage goes down (as experienced in Holland) and when there is legal usage, it is safer since it can be regulated - and taxed.
You also completely abolish the drug trade - which means no dealers, no pot users sitting jails, no drug mules dieing because the condom full of dope ruptured, etc etc.
Just a brainfart....
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 30 2004, 06:21 PM
but guns are not illegal here
you're comparing bananas with nuts, so to speak ...
Andy
Posted by: L8Apex Jan 30 2004, 06:38 PM
Palo Alto is stupid. Screw them. They don't even let people use their lawn mowers before 10am or something like that.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 07:07 PM
i am sincerely trying to understand your motivation.
...rather it is your fellow american citizen that gives you the feeling that you need to own a weapon.
is that correct?
i didn't get the feeling you were trying to impose anything, and you're right my response, written while trying to close out the day, was written in haste and poorly worded, for which i apologize. i did take your question at face value although my response does not convey that.
i do not feel the need to own anything. it is a choice, and i respect the choice of people who choose not to. (but often, people who choose not to also prefer to deny the choices of others. this is true of many things.)
i have the means to defend myself and my family in the ultimate extreme. beyond having the means, i believe i have the resolve to. resolve without means is suboptimal; means without resolve is not infrequently dangerous.)
i enjoy the sporting aspects of firearm use - like golf, target marksmanship has a mental side, and a physical side, a degree of technicality and a level of concentration. i don't hunt but i don't mind people who do so humanely. i haven't perforated anything but paper, and i'd like to keep it that way.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Jan 30 2004, 07:12 PM
I believe a lot of the same rationales for gun ownership also holds true for illegal drugs.
If people can own drugs freely then usage goes down (as experienced in Holland) and when there is legal usage, it is safer since it can be regulated - and taxed.
You also completely abolish the drug trade - which means no dealers, no pot users sitting jails, no drug mules dieing because the condom full of dope ruptured, etc etc.
yes - and this goes for most victimless 'crimes'.
it is the extreme of the Libertarian philosophy. there will be people who will abuse decriminalised drugs - just as there are people who abuse the drugs that are currently legal, taxed, and just as dangerous.
the stigma and fear of prosecution of 'illegal' or unlawful use keeps many people from seeking treatment.
the thing about liberty is: you've either got it, or you don't. but i don't confuse liberty with anarchy, for one of the reasons you brought up - there is a role for government in providing infrastructure, such as a transportation systems, and a food & drug administration...
Posted by: Kevin@ojai.net Jan 30 2004, 07:17 PM
Stupid laws Wash your car, it deserves it.
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 07:27 PM
but guns are not illegal here
you're comparing bananas with nuts, so to speak ...
Andy
This is why it's so interesting..... I think that a lot of people who advocate guns would also advocate drugs being illegal. I could be wrong though.
To me the main place where it falls down is that It's hard to use an ecstacy tab to kill someone else. Guns typically fire outward, and it effects a lot more than the owner. If you OD on heroin you end up dead - if you shoot a lot of people - they end up dead, and you may or may not.
So for this reason, I think guns ought to be controlled and drugs ought to be regulated for quality and taxed, in much the way cigarettes are today.
Posted by: zehrschnell914 Jan 30 2004, 07:49 PM
AirSix for President!! 
Posted by: krk Jan 30 2004, 08:08 PM
Now where have I seen that quote before? he he
That's one of the big problems in my mind. Liberals want a democracy. A democracy is mob-rule. Mobs are stupid. Get them riled up and they'll stomp off to do almost anything. We live in a (diluted) republic. A republic insures that the fickle and emotionally whipsawed 'will of the people' is tempered and moderated by elected representation. That's why we have an electoral college. In the past, citizens didn't vote for president. Citizens elected state legistlatures who elected senetors, who elected presidents.
-Ben
Hm. There's thing things like "the constitution" and the body of "law" that should prolly be mentioned. I ain't from around here -- so my comments prolly don't mean much. But it seems to me that at least one of the "brakes" on the mob rule issue is the fundamentals underlying the game. The constitution, the rule of law, etc. The voting part is to pick players that (in principle) play within the rules of the game.
kim.
Posted by: scottb Jan 30 2004, 08:32 PM
what is a permit?
i have had umpteen thousand $ of work done "under the radar" but fully within spec by a friend who is a licensed contractor and his subs. we agree on one thing, permits are simply a way to notify the local gub'ment it is time to raise your taxes because you spent some money improving your property.
one comment.....
Posted by: redshift Jan 30 2004, 09:59 PM
but going back to your reply, it seems that you neither fear democracy in general nor your government in particular,
but rather it is your fellow american citizen that gives you the feeling that you need to own a weapon.
is that correct?
Andy
I don't plan on ANYONE hurting me, I plan on EVERYONE hurting me.
M
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 11:36 PM
Just like there are no drugs right now.....?
If we need a revolution, there will be guns. As it happens, as proved by Mister Saddam Hussein - the guberment has bigger guns (in his case Chemical Weapons) - so your poxy shotgun ain't going to do shit. And frankly - you could have an A1M1 Abrams, and this government could still oppress you.
Posted by: redshift Jan 30 2004, 11:41 PM
Could? FUCKING DOES! Everyday.
It's getting worse all the time.
I am a Constitutionalist. Try being me, to the letter, you get pissed off.
M
Posted by: fiid Jan 30 2004, 11:47 PM
Least you can vote. I blame the voters. I just pay my taxes. 
Posted by: redshift Jan 31 2004, 12:08 AM
I do vote, yes..
I am writing in my own name, this time.
M
Posted by: URY914 Jan 31 2004, 07:04 AM
Let's all write-in Miles' name in November. Than he'll appoint us to nice comfy jobs that we don't have to show up for and we can work on our cars and drink beer.
Redshift in '04
For the People 
(well, maybe not "ALL" the people, but just us!)
Paul
Posted by: makinson1 Jan 31 2004, 01:31 PM
1 Liter of oil can contaminate 1.000.000 Liter of fresh water.
meaning, YOU get sick when you drink it ...
bio-degradeable is not a word i would use describing oil.
Andy
How many liters of water are in the Bay?
Posted by: redshift Jan 31 2004, 10:23 PM
(well, maybe not "ALL" the people, but just us!)
Paul
If I am elected President... 3 PARTS CARS IN EVERY GARAGE, IN PIECES!
So, pretty much, stautus quo.
M
Posted by: Mockmaw Jan 31 2004, 11:59 PM
Well, here's the 30-second version.
Infrastructure sucks in California, that's how it is. The ecosystems of the Bay Area are heavily dependant on the maintance of the wetlands in and around the bay. In places like Palo Alto, which are located very near crucial remaining wetland locations, it takes little effort for contaminants to get into the wetland systems. This causes damage to the very fragile wetland systems.. and the bay area environment (the bay itself and the inland regions) rely heavily on these wetlands for numerous reasons. Bottomline, disrupting the wetlands disrupts the entire region.
I know this stuff; I've spent the last four years of my education studying it.
And here's a link to a http://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/yearbook.html to the wetland contamination issue. Of course, it's a report released by a government agency.. so that means at least half of you are bound not to trust it...
Summary: I'm not saying that washing your car is going to break the back of the ecosystem, but every little bit helps. Enough of the people of Palo Alto (or the local government comprised of individuals that the local people elected) thought that that little bit would help.
Posted by: URY914 Feb 1 2004, 07:33 AM
Muckmaw,
If keeping people from washing thier car is going to "save the bay" while millions of gallons of rain runoff from the streets enter it every day, someone needs to look at a bigger picture. So you take away personal freedom because it has maybe a 1% impact on the overall problem? Get real. Lets ban 914's because they dip oil. Lets ban the store owner because he washes his sidewalk down with a hose. Lets not fight a house fire because the water run off will have ash in it.
If you look at the cause and the effect of the issue and the return or benefit on the decision. Keeping someone from washing a car to save the eco-system is a weak argument.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 1 2004, 07:59 AM
...Lets ban the store owner because he washes his sidewalk down with a hose.
we are unfortunately talking about California. most of CA rain occurs in Feb and March. and it's not continuous during those times - they'll get a few good storms blow through during that timeframe, and then they're done for the year. (there is often flooding during the first good rain because everybody forgot about all the crap that fell into the storm drain the 11 dry months prior and nobody does anything about it until it's a crisis...)
it's already illegal to use potable water to wash a sidewalk. CA is a desert.
i agree with your points, just wanted to clarify the rainfall thing.
Posted by: Bruce Allert Feb 1 2004, 08:20 AM
Redshift in '04
For the People
(well, maybe not "ALL" the people, but just us!)
Paul
Wouldn't that be a kick in da butt??? for all of us to write in Miles Hendrix. There's enough of us here, we could start a minor upsurgence of recognition, get some prime time notoriety.
What the Hell??? we came together for a van Miles for President ain't that much farther away, eh? 
.........b
Posted by: URY914 Feb 1 2004, 08:33 AM
Rich,
I sorta though washing a sidewalk would be a no-no but I had to throw it in.
Can you fart in Cali?
Paul
Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 1 2004, 08:37 AM
you must first file an Environmental Impast Statement; fartunately, there is an expedited process...
Posted by: URY914 Feb 1 2004, 08:54 AM
I'm sure you can do it on-line.
Paul
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