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Posted by: jfort Jan 30 2004, 02:27 PM

this is for a 70 9146. the rebuilt bosche 911 starter i bought from Stoddards failed after one started. it doesn't engage - just like the one it replaced. i bought a high torque starter. it has one 13mm bolt connection. that matches with the bosche. it has only one slide on connector, whereas the bosche has 3. unless i get some better ideas here, i intend to figure out which wire is hot when the key is turned all the way and connect that wire to the one high torque connector. any better ideas? what are all the other wires for? a ground (or two)?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 30 2004, 03:53 PM

On the stock starter, all three "flag" terminals are the same. The yellow wire connects to any of the three, and that is what trips the solenoid in the starter.

There is a fat red wire from the alternator with a ring terminal on the end, and that goes on the obvious stud on the back of the starter. The fat black cable from the battery (+) terminal goes to that same stud.

That's it, at least on a stock 1.7 or 2.0 motor. I don't remember the 1.8 starter, but I believe it's the exact same.

--DD

Posted by: jfort Feb 2 2004, 09:15 PM

OK, experts, I installed starter #3. this time a high torque starter. same problem -- the starter gear will not engage the flywheel. my mechanic, Tab Tanner, thinks the gear on the flywheel may have detached or recessed or something. HELP! Ever hear of this? What is the solution?

Posted by: jfort Feb 2 2004, 09:18 PM

also, Tab installed a relay so that juice from the battery, not the ignition switch, goes to the solenoid. if you know what i mean. he thought that would solve the problem, but it did not.

Posted by: steve@ottosvenice.com Feb 2 2004, 09:22 PM

Are you SURE it is the proper starter? Verified the part#? There always is the Chance they set you the wrong one in a box with the proper # on it. I open every box and check the item before I ship it out, this is to make sure that the part is the right one and ready to install. Steve

Posted by: F4i Feb 2 2004, 11:44 PM

I may not have the answer however, I did want to say that it is very cool that people from two other parts
vendors have responded. This is a very good forum.
That said if the solenoid is actuating. I am assuming it is. Are you getting any noise/grinding
etc..Sometimes the teeth get worn down and will not allow engagement. I am not sure of porsche starters
but many starters require shimming for proper engagement. As always a bad ground can cause havoc.
Good luck

Posted by: jfort Feb 3 2004, 08:27 AM

the starter that was in the car when i bought it developed the same problem that has plagued the following two -- the gear spins but it is not engaged. the 1st replacement starter was a Bosche 911 starter recommended by Brad. It worked when I first installed it. Two weeks later, on its 2nd use, it failed to engage. Then, yesterday, I installed the high torque starter. It, too, fails to engage. If anyone can help me diagnose this problem, I'd appreciate it!

Posted by: F4i Feb 3 2004, 11:36 AM

Sounds like the ring gear wear/damage. Try removing the starter and have a good look at the ring gear. You could also measure the distance from the mounting flange to the ring gear. Compare this to the coresponding distance on the starter, imagining that the solenoide is engaged. If the distance is way off maybe you have the correct starter and the wrong ring gear somehow. Sorry I could not be more helpfull it's difficult to troubleshoot via posts.

Posted by: otto Feb 3 2004, 12:13 PM

I concur that the ring gear maybe bad, look at the starter teeth, How much did it look like it was contacting? That Hot Relay is not a good idea I have seen the results of the starter engaging at 70mph on the freeway it is not pretty. Steve

Posted by: Howard R Feb 3 2004, 04:40 PM

Hi Jeff,

Sorry to hear your problems are still continuing. Sounds like the ring gear is chewed out. The way to check is to rotate the crank 60 degrees and see if the starter engages. What happens is that when the engine is switched off it usually stops in in one of 3 locations 120 crankshaft degrees apart and the ring gear wears in those 3 spots. If that is the problem you will need a new flywheel, as the ring gear is part of it, unless someone knows some other fix.

Posted by: dlee1967 Feb 3 2004, 10:23 PM

This might be a rather ugly thought, but I have seen a number of VWs that have shown the same symptoms due to a loosened gland nut. It seems rather odd that it would happen to a 914, but possible if the PO did not properly torque the flywheel bolts. The flywheel will wobble and may come to rest out of reach of the starter pinion. I found out this lesson the hard way on a VW 1600cc bus about 20 years ago. It also made a hell of a noise and mushroomed the end of the crank. A quick pull of the starter and inspection of the ring gear should tell you. DLee

Posted by: jfort Feb 6 2004, 08:41 AM

The worn ring gear diagnosis makes sense based on the symptoms. Howard's info, that it stops in one of three places 120 degrees apart, really makes sense. I'll let you guys know when we get it apart. Apparently, there are two sizes of ring gear that may be in the car, as it has been modified, so Tab doesn't know which one to order until we get it apart. Thanks for your help! I'll keep you posted.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 6 2004, 12:06 PM

to get back to the topic title ....

just installed the hi-torque starter (got it from Rich B. @ HPH),
the install was fairly straight forward, i had to unbolt the mounting
plate and rotate it to the 2nd position for the starter to clear the rear trunk floor, other than that it was a easy swap/install.
(see pic below)

3 things i noticed:

- it runs MUCH faster than the stock starter, feels like probably twice the speed. the FI starts up easy anyways and now it's even better

- it doesn't sound like a 914/911 starter at all. has a "space-age" sound to it, almost turbine like. COOL

- the top threadded stud for the 12V wires from the battery is pretty close to the trunk floor, so i just put some duct-tape over it to make sure it's not shorting out there


i'll let you know how it's going to work in the long run,
so far, i'm a happy camper ...

Andy

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 7 2004, 12:47 PM

Andy,

Is that your FIRST clear pic ?? JFort.. I havent heard of the different sized ring gears. This could get very interesting quickly. I have done a ton of ring gear work with 915's/930's and not one time has this come up...


B

Posted by: Jeffs9146 Feb 7 2004, 06:34 PM

That's because I took the picture!!

Jeff

Posted by: jfort Feb 24 2004, 12:41 PM

this could also go in the "what did I do with the 914 this w.e." thread. towed the car to Tab's shop. on the way i popped the clutch and got it started. first drive in months. it was great. pretty much confirmed by starting it later that I have teeth missing on the ring gear. hope to get new/used ring gear shortly. hope to take pictures to put on this thread. are there different ring gears depending on something? Tab told me as much.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 24 2004, 03:22 PM

I have no idea what flywheel you have but typical 9146 flywheels dont have a removable ring gear. The KEP aftermarket flywheels NOW come with a removable ring gear, but you have to buy the replacement ring gear from them.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 24 2004, 03:25 PM

This is a V8/901 flywheel but they do the same thing for the 914/6 conversion flywheel. See the bolts holding the ring gear on ? Another set of bolts holds the pressure plate on.

(I'm a KEP distributor)


B

Posted by: jfort Feb 24 2004, 03:43 PM

I am told that my car has an earlier type flywheel. Retail price for a new one is over $700. I am getting it for a wholesale price of $400 something. I'll keep the BBS posted, for what it's worth

Posted by: jfort Mar 9 2004, 08:34 AM

one last post from me on this subject. installed a new ring gear. that and the new high torque starter are working great. look at this picture of the old ring gear. no wonder the car wouldn't start!


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 9 2004, 08:42 AM

nice flywheel. put this in the classic threads.

kevin

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 9 2004, 11:29 AM

just a little update on the hi-torque starter part of this thread ....

it's been 4 weeks now and i am VERY happy with the starter (see pic in previous post here)!

just FYI
Andy

Posted by: Howard R Mar 9 2004, 01:17 PM

Hi Jeff,

I'm glad to hear you got it sorted out.