Few pics of a project I'm working on to break up the misery or paint, bondo and rust removal on my V-8 SBC conversion. I'm going to do the sheridan body work on my car and found these wheels which I liked.
The problem is the wheels are 10 inches wide with an offset of 2 inches. In searching the web site it seems that most people with this combo have gone with 3" spacers. This seemed like it would put a lot of force on the bearing and I still would not have many other rear brake options. So.... I found some rear 928 hubs on ebay. the bearings are much larger: 85mm diameter and 47mm wide (versus stock 75mm diameter x 37mm long) and this would provide me with other 5 lug rear brake options. So off to the barn.
First, put a piece of 5 inch 1.25 inch wall DOM(Drawn Over Mandrel steel tubing) in the lathe.
Cut off everything that didn't look like rear hub.........
Cut the sides off for the 928 brake shoe backing plates.
And was left with new hub that could hold a larger (928) bearing. Sure is purty at this point. I'm finally getting the hang of turning parts. The 2 critical dimensions in this hub are the diameter of the bearing bore and the length of the bearing bore back to the its front which is a large circlip. I was confident I got these within 1/1000. Everything else can be done in hundreths.
Found a some 11 gauge 4.75" outside diameter tubing, cut it to length and beveled one end.
Then pressed it into place.
Then practiced the TIG welding. Sure like that alot, no mess, no spatter but a steeper learning curve than mig. If you look closely, you'll see some bung welds about 5/8" down from the main weld. Just being a bit anal retentive. Doubt this was necessary as I put the press to the limit shoving the hub into the tubing.
Impressive!....
Cut the old hub out of a 914 swing arm and than welded in my new 928 hub assembly. Made a jig to keep the alignment all the same. The new exterior bearing surface is 3" farther out than the old 914 stock face.
Had a 944 turbo brake disc that dropped right onto the 928 hub without any issues.
Here is how the new wheel will sit on the widened hub without a spacer.
Advantages:
Bigger bearing
Bearing is moved to center of wheel for less angular loading on bearing.
Should be able to handle the SBC V-8
Bigger brakes
Parking brakes
Takes my mind off my troubles and pesky body repair
Disadvantages:
More weight (will do a comparative weighing- will be using aluminum caliper)
Time
To do:
Finish the parking brake
Add brake caliper bracket
Add some reinforcement
Powdercoat the arm
Make an axle spacer
how does the brake attach?
Andy
What you've done looks great! Good ideas for sure.
My only concern now is all the extra torque that distance will put on the stock trailing arm. Do you plan to reinforce it somehow or deal with that problem if it arises?
Nice. Saw a set of turbo twisties on CL locally and had the same thought, but knew it was beyond what I was capable of. Kind of wild, having the same idea... nice to see someone execute it as nicely as you have.
Excellent work and great idea!
Since I can add the brake bracket for my caliper essentially anywhere over 360 degrees, can anyone state a sound reason why I shouldn't point it straight up rather than tipped forward at about 100 degrees like the 914?
Nice work, wish I had some of those tools
Here is a pic of the trailing arms with the reinforcements like you described, cant remember who did these (Shea ). Chris Foley was doing the reinforcement by cutting/sectioning the arm and welding in a plate....kinda hard to describe.
Keep us posted on the progress,
Jim
Thanks for the info on the reinforcements!
The trailing arm build continues. It was 108 F here Saturday, the shop was 120 F inside and wasn't able to do anything till today. Here is a drawing of the adaptor flange. From my measurements it will work with the caliper I choose with it's adapter or a 944 turbo caliper as a direct bolt on.
Here is the flange cut out of some plate.
Flange welded onto the new trailing arm.
With the backer to support the parking brakes.
And with the brake shoe carrier
Here are the parking brakes set in place without the cable and gizmos to make it work.
928 hub put in for trial fit.
944 turbo disc put onto 928 hub
Detail of adapter for the new brake caliper as seen from the back.
awesome work...
I agree that what you did will add the same if not less stress to the trailing arm than the guys with 3 inch spacers...
Rich
Nice work. Do you think the axles are going to hit the inside of the new trailing arm tubes you fabbed, or have you figured this out too?
Wow!
That is some excellent thinking.
Are you going to have some sort of bolt on bearing retainer or are you relying on the press fit of the bearing? I think the bearing will be big enough.
I would consider stiffening the trailing arm a bit (but not too much). You DON'T want to make the suspension console the weak point in the rear suspension. It would be a bitch if you ripped that off the car instead of bending an arm.
It looks good so far. Expensive machine work, but it sure looks good.
just my $0.02
Simply amazing. Wow that sweet.
As the axle would be going into a deeper hole, the angle it could traverse before it contacted the side wall of the tube would be limited. I am using 911 axles and making an aluminum spacer that fits between the connection of the CV joint and the stub axle. This will place this connection back to the normal orientation and regain normal range of motion.
The bearing is held in place on 928s by a huge freakin internal circlip.
It probably would be expensive machine work if I farmed it out, however doing it myself is fun. Certainly more fun than sandblasting sheetmetal and fixing rust!
Damn, dude... that rocks.
Forgot to add this should anyone else be interested in making one. Truly the only critical dimensions are the bearing bore 84.933mm and bearing depth, ie depth of bearing pocket to back of circlip.
Wilhelm,
Just catching up after 5 days in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, thus the late post.
Nice work. Good to see someone thinking outside-the-box. I curious why you chose the 928 bearing? Most think the 914 bearing is more than adequate, and the 911 bearing beyond most needs.
I went with the 911 bearing mostly because it matched the late 911 axles, and I also moved the bearing further outboard in order to fit my 6 speed transaxle. Much like your work, here are a couple of photos of what I did (BTW, I can appreciate the amount of work that goes into this kind of thing). I fabricated a custom trailing arm.
Andys
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached image(s)
One thing to keep in mind, on a unit bearing like these, the distance between the centerline of the wheel and the bearing centerline determines the amount of torque the bearing sees. So you wouldn't necessarily have an overloaded bearing if the bearing centerline and the wheel centerline lined up.
Good job on the parts though. You need to use a little more filler rod and a little less heat on your TIG welds. Looks like you have a little undercutting.
Clay,
I've read that opinion before, but unfortunately only after I had already completed the work. Do you know why it doesn't release? Is it a symptom of the Wilwood design? Many cars use calipers and pads for parking brake applications, so I'm wondering what's the deal? Guess I'll find out for myself as soon as I get the wheels on the ground. I have all the 911 stuff just in case this doesn't work out.
Andys
The Carrera GT used a spot type caliper.
Beautiful...
Ummm... Can I have that rear suspension?
"I curious why you chose the 928 bearing? Most think the 914 bearing is more than adequate, and the 911 bearing beyond most needs."
I have a 928 and am familiar with this so had a reference for it during the design phase. Also I got complete rear hubs/carriers/brakes shoe setup for both rear corners of ebay for $25.00 a pop, much cheaper than I saw for any 911 stuff. Like many of you I am a CSOB.
"You need to use a little more filler rod and a little less heat on your TIG welds. Looks like you have a little undercutting."
Thanks, I appreciate any tips. I'm early on in my TIG welding having done MIG for 25 years. While welding this I think I was concentrating more on good penetration and was trying to avoid melting filler onto my weld rather than integrating it into my weld. I can see that it requires more eye hand coordination than MIG. I find myself pausing, taking a deep breathe, and getting set, before running each bead. Seems like with MIG I've gotten used to hitting the trigger and running with it!
For what its worth, even Wilwood is using a parkbrake like a 911....
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Pages/17/index.asp
Glad I haven't bought the Wilwood spot caliper.
nice project! it's very cool!!!
I don't know why this additional challenge occured to me yesterday but I really appreciate you'all sharing your solutions as they are great.
I wonder if the wilwood caliper or the pads are already heated up and have expanded more than the rotor when the brake is set and therefore the pads are bound up from the rotor not shrinking as much as the caliper? If it does happen and you do get it loose you might try a cushion spacer of some type under the stationary pad to keep it from being bound up on cooling, maybe even a warped washer ( I don't remember their real name)
It could also be the flexing of the mounting bracket from the leverage applied to the arm. I am sure you can figgure it out and make them work.
I know it's a pain but if it does lock up you might try jacking up the car and loosening the wheel and rotor and it might save beating the caliper up.
Both solutions look great to me.
I am going to try to move the 914 bearing housing out ward andrefabing the arm or a copy of the arm out to it to try and not have the stub axle so far up in the bearing housing, this may prove to be easier said than done. I currently think the 914 bearings are large enough. I already have the 911 brake and stub stuff and it looks to be enough brake for a hot suby in this light car to me.
I think it's better to have more heat than filler than more filler than heat.
My previous experience with torch welding helped me on my curve with tig. I don't have any grip in my left hand so I have to stop and reposition the wire pretty often so that is my challenge. My best friend is a welder and fabber by trade so I have all the advice I will ever need. His beads are almost robot perfect.
I guess my search abilities are not real good as I missed this yesterday when I was starting this solution search.
Very nice work.
Clay,
This was Rich’s answer to my email on the question. I guess we will need to see how Andy’s set up is going to work as it is done and Marty’s 2 set ups are working perfect for 2 years. I am a $100 in parts now so I can change out and sell what I have but I am looking for the easiest way for an E brake. I have seen Eric’s tread on the 911 set up but I do not know where to get the parts and how easy it would be to set it up.
“The problem Mike had was with the spot brake from Wilwood. It would hang when set for a period of time and Mike eventually went to the 911 based drum brake setup. I wouldn't base all systems on this one case Bob. I'm not sure the execution of Mike's system didn't contribute to this hanging issue. I will say that the drum system has been a much better setup and very OE looking vs. the mechanical look the levered spot brake had.
Rich”
Wilhelm I have been anxiously waiting to see the rest of your solution ie the spacers inbetween the cv's and stub. I have some 18x11 turbo wheels waiting. I may, to save the machine work just use the 914 bearing and hub and just move it out but the spacer will be interesting. I think it will need to be mild steel to have 6 threaded holes for the cv and 6 more counterbored for the stub flange. Might as well make it the length you need to use the axles you have. I haven't looked close but it looks like the inside of the new wide wheel is just about where the stock wheel is. I hope the wheel wells are not any closer than the control arm.
Looks great sofar.
I'm anxiously awaiting the solution too! It has been miserably cold here and in fact is snowing again. The "shop" (barn) is unheated, work has been soul sucking, the children needy, the wife has the projects list (whine, whine, whine)...... I have the engine and tranny in, one of the half shafts is sitting in the hub and I was planning on tomorrow going out and running the suspension through its full range to see if I will need a spacer versus just purchasing longer axles from Sway-a-way. The deciding factor will be if the axle has enough room when the suspension is in full extension. Then it comes down to money and time. Probably cost me $100 in material and my time to make the spacers versus $300 to just purchase a pair of longer axles http://www.swayaway.com/Axles.php. God and my wife willing I will make a decision tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah I forget about the weather everywhere but here. It was 37 with 30 mph winds sat and I tried to find a doe I liked but the only good ones were by the gate as I drove out and my rifle was in it's case unloaded in the back seat of my sub. It's 30 this morn. and no wind, perfect except that sun is my wifes only day off and we go to ihop and my son just got back from san fran. and we will eat with him and his girlfriend and visit.
Do 914 guys ever use shorter shocks to limit droop? I don't know how much motion you need but it doesn't seem like more than 4 inches at the wheel, I don't know these little cars that well. Also would it not be cheaper to just open the inside of the control arm up the required amount? I would like to run my axles angled to the front some and that will agrivate the problem even more. That also means I will need swayaways probably. Unless I find the longest 911/944's I can get and just go with that. I still need to study up on computing the proper axle length to fit in the cv's to keep them centered for whatever I decide on. It seems the 944 may be the longest stock one available. Course I guess I could shop for some used custom ones.
I use a motor oil and juniper wood stove in my shop some but I also have my old 3 ton house electric heater but it really runs the bill up. We are just now getting into our cold season.
My wifes been patiently waiting on me to redo the kitchen cabinets for 6 months.
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