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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Carbs VS FI
Posted by: dbgriffith75 Sep 16 2008, 04:08 PM
So basically I'm just curious here on who's opinion is what and why. I might have seen a similar post a while back but I don't remember for sure.
My personal opinion is carbs. I don't know what a new injector for a 914 is going for but generally speaking carb kits are cheaper than new injectors. Plus, I like trying to fine tune carbs- if one is set right the engine can be extremely efficient. My teener is set up for carbs and I plan to leave it that way.
Posted by: melnyk Sep 16 2008, 04:43 PM
So basically I'm just curious here on who's opinion is what and why. I might have seen a similar post a while back but I don't remember for sure.
My personal opinion is carbs. I don't know what a new injector for a 914 is going for but generally speaking carb kits are cheaper than new injectors. Plus, I like trying to fine tune carbs- if one is set right the engine can be extremely efficient. My teener is set up for carbs and I plan to leave it that way.
how efficient? i think i have a blown mps and i personally dont like over complicated devices. i would like 25-27 mpg. id so i think im just going to go that route if i can get this mileage. my car isnt a DD and a carb is way easier to diagnose for me.
Posted by: BarberDave Sep 16 2008, 04:57 PM
I have Carbs, i like them. How ever I voted for F.I.. Never haveing F.I. I would
like to play with that. More power, adjustability , and original. I 'm nut's i
guess!!!! Dave 
Posted by: Lavanaut Sep 16 2008, 05:03 PM
Try a search...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=75380
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=67433
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=37904
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=30741
...just to name a few. 
Posted by: jasons Sep 16 2008, 05:08 PM
I 
DJET! When its properly set up, it works great.
Outside of a stock motor though, I'll take Dellortos.
Posted by: jd74914 Sep 16 2008, 05:11 PM
My L-Jet car runs great. 
On a side note, I'm too young to have tons of experience with carbs, so any warmed up thing I build will have PEFI on it. 
Posted by: vsg914 Sep 16 2008, 05:57 PM
Jeez, here we go again.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 16 2008, 06:01 PM
Why?..Cause. 
Posted by: type47 Sep 16 2008, 06:07 PM
FI because it was factory installed
FI because it is more modern than carbs
FI because it's more efficient
IMHO
Posted by: toon1 Sep 16 2008, 06:11 PM
FI is better unless you like carbs, then carbs. are better 
Personally, I'm on the no carb. diet.
Try the search from the link's above, this discussion has been beat to death.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 16 2008, 06:14 PM
Carbs because they sound Great.
Carbs because it gives better low end.
Aaaaaaand, Carbs because the POS FI kept breaking down and leaving me stranded all over Hells Acre. 
IMHO
Posted by: Todd Enlund Sep 16 2008, 06:28 PM
I voted FI because it is infinitely more tunable. You didn't specify stock FI or aftermarket... FI offers better MPG, better power, better driveability, all in the same tune. Carbs you pretty much need to decided how you want the car to run, and you'll sacrifice somewhat in other areas.
But, I plan on using 44 IDFs on my 2258. In my case, they will cost about 10% of what a comparable FI system would cost me. Maybe somewhere down the road, I will switch to FI, but it will be pretty low on my priority list.
Posted by: r_towle Sep 16 2008, 06:34 PM
I would say this.
Preface...I have a Djet and and Ljet car.
For simple drive and go, the stock FI is fine, once you troubleshoot it and replace any worn parts.
Unfortunately the TPS and MPS are NLA...say that three times fast.
The can be tuned and can be modified for larger motors, but you really need to have your wits about you to make it work...it simple, but fubar if you change the wrong thing in the motor.
Carbs are way more flexible, but you suffer from poor mileage and they run like crap for the first 10 minutes.
Modern FI would be my choice, something with an O2 sensor and a feedback loop to monitor the system..
It really amazes me how much HP these modern cars get from the modern FI system...its just much better technology overall.
Rich
Posted by: EyeTrip Sep 16 2008, 06:52 PM
Love the sound of dual webers
Once setup, carbs are more reliable than the 40yr 1st gen injection
Very clean install over injection
Now, I would like to megasqirt a 1911. I think that would be fun.
Posted by: dbgriffith75 Sep 16 2008, 06:53 PM
the TPS and MPS are NLA!
the TPS and MPS are NLA!
the TPS and MPS are NLA!
mwa ha ha... I accept your challenge and await your rebuttle!
Posted by: EyeTrip Sep 16 2008, 06:54 PM
Modern FI would be my choice, something with an O2 sensor and a feedback loop to monitor the system..
It really amazes me how much HP these modern cars get from the modern FI system...its just much better technology overall.
Rich
I agree 100%
Posted by: azbill Sep 16 2008, 07:00 PM
FI is the way to go. I'm running the Emerald M3D ECU with Jennvey throttle bodies other then the noise form the Jennveys the system is great. It took awhile to get ECU programmed but once it was set it is fantastic.
Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 16 2008, 07:25 PM
Love the sound of dual webers
Once setup, carbs are more reliable than the 40yr 1st gen injection
Very clean install over injection
Now, I would like to megasqirt a 1911. I think that would be fun.
Love that sound? cuz thats all you can hear carbs are soo loud. I have a CD player and like to listen to music driving not that sucking sound.
Once setup? yep, and then they go out of sync again and again.
Clean? Stock FI is really clean and reliable as its still going strong.
Low end power? Bow to FI as it has better low end power.
Tuneable? Bolt on the stock parts and its tuned or if you have a 2056 w/ mild cam adjust the MPS and forget about it.
Plus you can get 30mpg with Djet / Ljet and FI has built in altitude adjustment for those up into the mountain road days.
In 1999 I went back to djet pulling the 40 dells and have never looked back, never been broke down by the side of the road either with djet. Carbs? several times...and they are sitting on the shelf gathering dust...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: scotty b Sep 16 2008, 07:30 PM
Why?..Cause.
God I hope that's just drool on that filter lid
Posted by: vsg914 Sep 16 2008, 08:20 PM
Love the sound of dual webers
Once setup, carbs are more reliable than the 40yr 1st gen injection
Very clean install over injection
Now, I would like to megasqirt a 1911. I think that would be fun.
Love that sound? cuz thats all you can hear carbs are soo loud. I have a CD player and like to listen to music driving not that sucking sound.
Once setup? yep, and then they go out of sync again and again.
Clean? Stock FI is really clean and reliable as its still going strong.
Low end power? Bow to FI as it has better low end power.
Tuneable? Bolt on the stock parts and its tuned or if you have a 2056 w/ mild cam adjust the MPS and forget about it.
Plus you can get 30mpg with Djet / Ljet and FI has built in altitude adjustment for those up into the mountain road days.
In 1999 I went back to djet pulling the 40 dells and have never looked back, never been broke down by the side of the road either with djet. Carbs? several times...and they are sitting on the shelf gathering dust...
100%
Posted by: vsg914 Sep 16 2008, 08:21 PM
Edit: delete accidental double post. Damn fat fingers.
Posted by: dflesburg Sep 16 2008, 08:27 PM
We have two 1970 cars both with 2.0 motors, one with stock FI and one with dual two barrel dells. Wont have both running togeather for about four years. Will let you know.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 16 2008, 08:35 PM
That should be spelt BLOW
With the FI that came with the car the low end sucked. On a slow corner I would have to go for first. With the Webers I only need to go for first when I stop. The FI also had a 'Lag' at take off.
But the fuel milege was great, LA to San diego on a half a tank.
Posted by: vsg914 Sep 16 2008, 08:53 PM
That should be spelt BLOW
With the FI that came with the car the low end sucked. On a slow corner I would have to go for first. With the Webers I only need to go for first when I stop. The FI also had a 'Lag' at take off.
But the fuel milege was great, LA to San diego on a half a tank.
Your FI was seriously out of tune.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 16 2008, 09:09 PM
Which is better?
Yes--yes they are.
Really, what do you know? If you're happy synch'ing carbs, blowing out jets, and tweaking mixture screws, carbs are better. If you're happy just driving until something decides not to work, then troubleshooting that, then go with EFI.
Carbs seem to have the potential to make the most power; they don't really care about cams, for instance. EFI has the potential for far better driveability.
...Just as long as you don't go with the crappy single-Weber setup, either is cool.
--DD
Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 16 2008, 10:42 PM
That should be spelt BLOW
With the FI that came with the car the low end sucked. On a slow corner I would have to go for first. With the Webers I only need to go for first when I stop. The FI also had a 'Lag' at take off.
But the fuel milege was great, LA to San diego on a half a tank.
Your FI was seriously out of tune.
Vacuum leaks or majorly out of tune as FI has better throttle response than carbs
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 16 2008, 11:30 PM
With what I put into that FI it should have levitated, When it worked it worked fine
other than being gutless at low end. Other than cleaning the jets once and awhile
and an occasional synchronization carbs have never let me down.
Carbs may suck but that FI blows. At least mine did...And a whole shit load I have
read about here (and other sites) over the years.
Posted by: Justinp71 Sep 16 2008, 11:53 PM
I like carbs because I'm mechanical... but when I had fi my car didn't smell... 
I would say carbs are a good replacement for any 30 year old injection system that isn't running well...
Posted by: Rand Sep 16 2008, 11:54 PM
My FI starts promptly, idles flawlessly, and runs as strong as possible at all elevations and temperatures.
If I was to build a 2270 then I would need a different system. I could go with dual Dells and that would be great. But I would sacrifice some of the benefits listed above. Or I could go with a modern FI system like SDS and have the best of all worlds.
Depends on the engine.
In general terms (across the board, not just 914), assess which modern and competitive cars run FI vs carbs and why.
Posted by: EyeTrip Sep 17 2008, 03:39 AM
[quote name='Bleyseng' date='Sep 16 2008, 06:25 PM' post='1080296']
[quote name='EyeTrip' post='1080266' date='Sep 16 2008, 05:52 PM']
Love the sound of dual webers
Once setup, carbs are more reliable than the 40yr 1st gen injection
Very clean install over injection
Now, I would like to megasqirt a 1911. I think that would be fun.
[/quote]
[quote]Love that sound? cuz thats all you can hear carbs are soo loud. I have a CD player and like to listen to music driving not that sucking sound[/quote]
Sissy, A real car will talk to you and make you feel the road. I have a cd player too, but most of the time I find it off so I can enjoy the ride
[quote]Once setup? yep, and then they go out of sync again and again.[/quote]
The only resons I find them out of sync is bad linkage or vacuum issuse.
[quote]Clean? Stock FI is really clean and reliable as its still going strong.[/quote]
Out of the box carbs will have issues but a tuned set of webers are very clean and more relaible dont be fooled
[quote]Low end power? Bow to FI as it has better low end power.[/quote]
HAHA low end? If you want carbs to performs that way you can.... but I prefer the whole range.
[quote]Tuneable? Bolt on the stock parts and its tuned or if you have a 2056 w/ mild cam adjust the MPS and forget about it.[/quote]
I think thats cool. But your still in the realm of carbs.
[quote]Plus you can get 30mpg with Djet / Ljet and FI has built in altitude adjustment for those up into the mountain road days.[/quote]
Thats great, I have never felt much difference going up Donner summit @ 7200 ft other than running out of air.
If you want the best you need to go for a modern FI, not a 40yr old fi. The new ones are so much more accurate and stable (not to mencheon the parts cost and availibilty) But don't discard the carbs because you don't understand them.
Posted by: Bleyseng Sep 17 2008, 08:47 AM
I'll be running carbs on the next engine, 2.4L till I get a FI system.
Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 17 2008, 01:44 PM
I voted FI, but d and L-jet sucks....SDS baby
I've messed with weber's for years and it sucks compared to PEFI (P as in programmable) The only thing carbs beats PEFI on is the price.
But then I think anything stock sucks
Posted by: Cevan Sep 17 2008, 02:27 PM
I voted FI, but d and L-jet sucks....SDS baby
I've messed with weber's for years and it sucks compared to PEFI (P as in programmable) The only thing carbs beats PEFI on is the price.
But then I think anything stock sucks
For stock motors, I'd go stock FI based on my own experiences. I've put about 4500 miles on my L-Jet 1.8 in the last year and it doesn't suck. Starts every time, warms up great, doesn't stall, doesn't stumble, runs the same in hot or cold weather, humid or dry. I'd rather spend the $$$ an SDS system would cost on tires, suspension and gas.
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 17 2008, 04:13 PM
If you're going to compare then you need to compare apples to apples. The ONLY people who prefer carbs to fuel injection are people who didn't have correctly adjusted fuel injection. On a stock engine there is no way that correctly adjusted fuel injection doesn't outperform correctly adjusted carburetors in any way you compare them, at high altitude or sea level; hot or cold; idling or acceleration; power, mileage or tractability. No how, no where, no way. Not possible in theory, nor in practice.
The only advantage carburetors have is the vroom vroom sound. 
Thinking about carburetors? Fix your fuel injection. Simple enough, and problem solved.
Posted by: SirAndy Sep 17 2008, 07:06 PM
Carbs VS FI, Which is better?
No ...
Posted by: SGB Sep 17 2008, 07:45 PM
I like carbs because people talk about "good carbs" and sometimes "bad carbs" but NOBODY wants to talk about "good fi". Maybe "good Hi-Fi" or maybe "Sci-Fi". But not "Eff-I". Although when I asked someone at the beverage store, I was told "Eff-U" but I think they were confused. Nope. I'm going with carbs.
Besides, mine are SHINEY.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 17 2008, 08:27 PM
For all of you that think injection is the best, I give you this. It is long but very well written by a expert from Pro Systems who has worked heavily in both areas.
Carburetion Vs. Injection
One of the most often asked questions is why do carburetors make more power then EFI and why do the car manufacturers use EFI if carburetors make more power?
A few years ago we used some contacts at General Motors to verify some simple facts from some dyno data we had received from a head to head comparison.
An engine was being constructed for Comp Eliminator style racing and the program was going to be electronically fuel injected. Well the system was giving the engine shop some questionable numbers. The shop removed the EFI system and installed some of our Pro Stock carburetors on the EFI manifold top so they could quickly compare systems.
The engine responded immediately with much faster acceleration rates and a 5 percent improvement in power.
The EFI designer was brought out to the site and try as he might he could not out perform those carburetors. When the session wrapped up carburetors were king by 24 horsepower.
I've heard similar stories and similar claims when comparing systems.
So when we analyze this information it really comes down to a simple fact. Carburetors and Electronic Fuel injection are two completely different systems. They share no concepts and each has a different theory.
EFI's claim is this: I will supply sprayed droplets of fuel at the proper air to fuel ratio all the time.
Carburetors claim: I will supply a pre-emulsed froth of fuel and air into the engine at a preset ratio.
The results proved the analysis of the concepts to be correct. In this case, the carburetor was supplying the engine in question with the proper air to fuel ratio, so the EFI's advantage was gone. Remember, EFI has a computer to tune the engine. You have you. If you know how to tune you'll have the advantage. Carburetors (at the risk of sounding chauvinistic) are a man's game. Guessing rarely works. You have to know how to actually tune an engine.
Remember a carburetor is an atomization/emulsion machine. An injection system is a proper air to fuel delivery ratio machine. Two different concepts. If a carburetor can be designed to supply the perfect air to fuel ratio all the time it should consistently outperform EFI. Its design lends itself to have an unfair advantage in atomization.
Obviously adiabatic expansion is the next question on the list. So if we take a good look at the carburetor we see its not only a perfect machine for atomizing fuel, it also has another advantage. The joule-thompson effect.
Tests performed using quartz plates and infra red sensors located in the plenum area beneath an NHRA Pro-Stock engine revealed an intake manifold temperature drop on a 85 degree day of almost 20 degrees as a result of the the carburetor creating this effect.
So when your neighbor with EFI is ingesting 85 degree air, your power-plant could be ingesting 65 degree air.
That's a nice advantage.
But let's not skip over the atomization advantage. In a high end designed carburetor the fuel is emulsed to lift it. Its a controlled froth. I won't kid you, it's very difficult to control. Its much easier to build a carburetor that operates on a vacuum to ratio concept. But the fogging advantage is gone. So when a customer asks, why is this carburetor more expensive than that builders carburetor as they look basically the same. Most of it is all in the emulsion package and the time spent flowing it and tweaking it to do its job. Remember in a high emulsion design .001 of an inch is a big deal. They're difficult to balance and require sophisticated equipment that many shops have never seen. Also, don't go poking things into the metering block passages to inspect them or look around. You might just lose 10 lbs of torque.
The disadvantage of carburetors used to be restriction. I remember back 20 years ago before booster technology really took off you had to size carburetors to operate on 1-2 inches of vacuum in the plenum at the starting line. The restriction alone was probably costing these engines a 2-3 percent power loss.
Tests we performed at Sonny's racing 5 years ago showed us numbers of about .6 in the plenum and spikes of about 1.1 to 1.3 in the runner at the finish-line. That's a pretty huge decrease and just for dynos sake when we built carburetors large enough to reduce this number by on average 40 percent we saw an increase of only about 3-5 horsepower on an IHRA Pro-Stocker. SO that advantage for EFI is now also gone.
Now that these same engines can operate on as little as .5 hg of vacuum at the starting line and only 1-1.2 at the finish-line, the restriction is nil. Really it all comes down to getting the air to fuel ratio correct. If a carburetor can do that, it should win the race every time. After all, by design, it's a superior emulsion machine.
Thanks for reading.
Posted by: 749142 Sep 17 2008, 08:32 PM
fi becuase,
better gas mpg
its original,
and setup up properly Ljet is the most reliable thing ive had so far.
i heart ljet becuase i never could get the djet to run right. bad narnesses.
djets are good too i just never had any success becuase my harnesses were cracking and breaking. brittle wires.
but oh well carbs arent my style
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 17 2008, 08:58 PM
Pro Systems, you mean the drag-racing carburetor manufacturer? Do you suppose they have a point of view? And do they have any concern other than wide-open throttle? Do you drive your 914 at anything less than wide open throttle? If you do then that information is irrelevant.
Ljet and Djet may be primitive compared to more modern fuel injection technologies, but they still deliver better ratios throughout all driving conditions than even more primitive carburetors can. It's easy enough to see that for yourself, how do your carburetors adjust for cold running temperatures? For higher elevations? For higher temperatures?
Posted by: Spoke Sep 17 2008, 09:57 PM
I like FI because I could sell my used dual Weber IDF40's for $400 in one day.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 17 2008, 10:01 PM
Now if your happy with a stock 80/95hp L/D-jet engine then I agree that stock FI is the best, but I'm not so then you're into carbs or PEFI.
Simple as that.
Carbs are not perfect but they can be tuned to a point of being comparable to FI and handle all sorts of mods to the engine. The 180hp (150rwhp) T4 I built runs just as smooth as a 95hp d-jet. My bus with a 2L T1 w/dual DCNF's runs better than stock 1600 with more than twice the power.
Most issues with carbs are user error, poor linkage set-up being #1, followed by engine faults (built bad or worn out) and poor choices on parts. With an solid engine, O2 meter and a set of jet reams I can set the A/F ratio right on the money. (I BTW I find the A/f ratio more stable with carbs). Four years ago I drove my VW squareback all winter, no chokes on my dual weber's down to -25C, never a problem.
If we were talking /6's there is almost no FI vs carb debate..if there's no FI on that /6 then slap some weber's on that puppy.
Guys will spend $3k on PMO's
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 17 2008, 10:36 PM
That's why I said a stock engine, that's what we've been talking about.
For modified engines when you have to remove the stock fuel injection then a modern fuel injection system running in closed loop gives even more advantages. Carbs don't change mixtures according to feedback from the engine like FI in closed loop, so they can't provide correct fuel/air ratio for every situation. It's impossible. They simply don't have the physical capacity to do that. You can get carbs to be good, no doubt, but never as good as well tuned fuel injection. Any new performance cars you know of being produced today that use carburetors? Highest buck, no compromise cars running carbs? Even as optional equipment? Why not?
Sure you CAN drive a carbureted car in the winter with no chokes, we've all done it. But you've got to admit that it was primitive and your engine wasn't real efficient or friendly until it was warmed up. And did you try doing that at 8000 feet? That's the whole point, fuel injection gives you the correct air/fuel ratio no matter what the situation. Carburetors don't. They can't.
Put on $3000 PMO's IF there's no FI on the 6? Vroom, vroom.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 17 2008, 10:58 PM
I drive mine FT quite often, I built my engine to have fun with. I come out of most
corners at FT. I put my webers on about 25 years ago on a stock engine and the
performance was improved at lowend as well as topend. With the proper cam,
head work, crank and compression it produces plenty of power and Great throttle
responce. It's fun as hell and no matter what some 'know it all dick' says, they are
staying.
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 17 2008, 11:36 PM
Great, like everything else on your car, do what you like. It's YOUR car after all. If you modified your engine then carburetors are fine, and 25 years ago when you put yours on they were the logical choice for a modified car. The bright side is that you can look forward to even better performance some day when you put a modern fuel injection system on it.
That's also more proof of what I said earlier, that people who think carbs are better than fuel injection are people who never had their fuel injection working correctly. Too bad you didn't just fix it back then, you'd have had 25 years of having more fun.
Posted by: LarryR Sep 17 2008, 11:39 PM
I think you needed a 3rd category aftermarket fuel injection. I voted fuel injection but thinking twm throttle bodies.
Posted by: dw914er Sep 17 2008, 11:44 PM
I voted FI. It workes great, and is pretty reliable (until you get some sort of leak). Its also from the factory, and efficient.
Posted by: vsg914 Sep 18 2008, 08:00 AM
See? One more useless thread about FI vs carbs. To each his own. Why get hot and bothered and call someone an dick just because they have a preference? Do you think the guy that drives a Porsche thinks another guy is a dick cause he drives a Ferrari? Bullshit! There are applications where FI works best, and of course, where carbs work best. Why not save your typing skills for something that really matters? If ya wanna argue about useless bullshit, go to the sandbox and post in one of the 1237 useless political threads? 
Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 18 2008, 08:18 AM
See? One more useless thread about FI vs carbs. To each his own. Why get hot and bothered and call someone an dick just because they have a preference? Do you think the guy that drives a Porsche thinks another guy is a dick cause he drives a Ferrari? Bullshit! There are applications where FI works best, and of course, where carbs work best. Why not save your typing skills for something that really matters? If ya wanna argue about useless bullshit, go to the sandbox and post in one of the 1237 useless political threads?
Most peeps who hate carb's never had a clue on how to set them up proper, but then most peeps who rip off the FI never had it working proper as well.
This thread is pointless.
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 18 2008, 09:15 AM
Most peeps who hate carb's never had a clue on how to set them up proper, but then most peeps who rip off the FI never had it working proper as well.
Agree totally. And the only people who can really compare are people who've actually done both correctly, well, and more than once.
This thread is pointless.
Can't totally agree with this though. People new to 914's or new to the forums probably need to see this back and forth once in a while to know they have options. It may be a waste of your time because you've seen it and heard it and done it yourself before, but that's not true for everyone.
Posted by: carcam Sep 18 2008, 10:50 AM
I'm new and like this thread. What's PMO? I have Webers on my 6 and wouldn't mind a nice FI sometimes. Thanks.
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 18 2008, 03:56 PM
They're modern upscale carburetors: http://www.pmocarb.com/
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Sep 18 2008, 06:01 PM
Now if your happy with a stock 80/95hp L/D-jet engine then I agree that stock FI is the best, but I'm not so then you're into carbs or PEFI.
Simple as that.
Carbs are not perfect but they can be tuned to a point of being comparable to FI and handle all sorts of mods to the engine. The 180hp (150rwhp) T4 I built runs just as smooth as a 95hp d-jet. My bus with a 2L T1 w/dual DCNF's runs better than stock 1600 with more than twice the power.
Most issues with carbs are user error, poor linkage set-up being #1, followed by engine faults (built bad or worn out) and poor choices on parts. With an solid engine, O2 meter and a set of jet reams I can set the A/F ratio right on the money. (I BTW I fine the A/f ratio more stable with carbs). Four years ago I drove my VW squareback all winter, no chokes on my dual weber's down to -25C, never a problem.
If we were talking /6's there is almost no FI vs carb debate..if there's no FI on that /6 then slap some weber's on that puppy.
Guys will spend $3k on PMO's
For modified engines when you have to remove the stock fuel injection then a modern fuel injection system running in closed loop gives even more advantages. Carbs don't change mixtures according to feedback from the engine like FI in closed loop, so they can't provide correct fuel/air ratio for every situation. It's impossible. They simply don't have the physical capacity to do that. You can get carbs to be good, no doubt, but never as good as well tuned fuel injection. Any new performance cars you know of being produced today that use carburetors? Highest buck, no compromise cars running carbs? Even as optional equipment? Why not?
Sure you CAN drive a carbureted car in the winter with no chokes, we've all done it. But you've got to admit that it was primitive and your engine wasn't real efficient or friendly until it was warmed up. And did you try doing that at 8000 feet? That's the whole point, fuel injection gives you the correct air/fuel ratio no matter what the situation. Carburetors don't. They can't.
Put on $3000 PMO's IF there's no FI on the 6? Vroom, vroom.
I do have a preference like alot of others here, carb or FI. This guy is like a Jehovah's Witness at your door, and no matter what my or anyone elses beliefs are HE IS RIGHT. Its like the neighbors chijuajua...bark bark bark bark bark bark.
See? One more useless thread about FI vs carbs. To each his own. Why get hot and bothered and call someone an dick just because they have a preference? Do you think the guy that drives a Porsche thinks another guy is a dick cause he drives a Ferrari? Bullshit! There are applications where FI works best, and of course, where carbs work best. Why not save your typing skills for something that really matters? If ya wanna argue about useless bullshit, go to the sandbox and post in one of the 1237 useless political threads?
Hey vsg914 'Blow Me"...
Posted by: J P Stein Sep 18 2008, 06:34 PM
As the Canuck says, PEFI makes more power (& torque) and is more efficient than carbs....with all due respect to Pro Stockers who aren't allowed to use it.
Unfortunately it is more than twice as expensive for a top drawer set up (ie:one that works) than a new set of PMOs......this is 6 cylinder stuff....I dunno shit about 4 poopers.... cept they're slow.
Posted by: DBCooper Sep 18 2008, 07:09 PM
I do have a preference like alot of others here, carb or FI. This guy is like a Jehovah's Witness at your door, and no matter what my or anyone elses beliefs are HE IS RIGHT. Its like the neighbors chijuajua...bark bark bark bark bark bark.
Convincing argument. Lots of good technical info there.
Hey vsg914 'Blow Me"...
PMS?
Posted by: nsr-jamie Nov 25 2010, 05:54 AM
Didn't the Euro 1.8 models come with carbs instead of injection??
Posted by: underthetire Nov 25 2010, 10:26 AM
I voted FI, not stock, but I love to diagnose through the laptop and be able to make changes. It's also not bothered so much by bad/old gas and temperature.
Posted by: JmuRiz Nov 25 2010, 08:50 PM
FI is the best, but I'm thinking more EFI...but that's $ to setup right. I'd love to have EFI on my WIP 6 conversion, but I couldn't pass up a full carb setup, manifolds, airbox, and linkage for under 1500...I'd have to pay double that for a nice ITB EFI setup.
Each setup has it's ups and downs. If you have a carb or FI setup that's working, just keep enjoying it. These cars are too much fun either way 
Posted by: speed metal army Nov 25 2010, 09:12 PM
I voted FI,Its predictable,and performs well.I also like the idea od programmable FI.
Carbs are cool too.If I didnt have the bux to replace a totally malfunctioning FI set up,(or fix it etc)I'd run some carbs,cuz they are simple(ish)and fairly cheap.
Posted by: 914 shifter Nov 26 2010, 05:57 AM
up to 2056 original d-jet. 
bigger displacement needs carbs or aftermarket fi ![yellowsleep[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif)
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 26 2010, 06:16 AM
Didn't the Euro 1.8 models come with carbs instead of injection??
yes, 8.6CR plus dual Solexes like a VW Bus.
Posted by: benalishhero Nov 28 2010, 08:03 AM
I've had three different set-ups on my stock 2.0: duel carbs, single carb, and currently D-jet. I voted for the latter because the performance and reliability does not compare.
I refrain, all with a stock 2.0.
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 28 2010, 08:29 AM
Dueling carbs is a very common occurance around here. A syncrometer will cure that. 
Posted by: ME733 Nov 28 2010, 09:00 AM
I voted for Carburators...........here,s why....The stock fuel injection is a first generation system., with limitations..With carburators you are NOT restrained within certain parameters for a camshaft choise., with fuel injection the duration and lift is limited as a practial matter., Carburators are a demand system.The more air and fuel the engine needs the carburator (s) will supply it no matter what RPM,s you use.....Camshaft selection is just a matter of the RPM ranges you intend to use...Carburators are simpler.(KISS). keep it simple stupid. Carburators are simpler, without the masses of high pressure fuel lines , fittings, temp senders,air box, air flow meter,etc etc...Over many years I have replaced the fuel injection systems with carburators.Every customer was satisfied and the engine ran better, had MORE HP. and was customer friendly....The OEM fuel injection is adequate for the limited power range and RPM,s in stock form., but after forty years practacially every component is worn out, and some of the replacement parts are getting EXPENSIVE...The OEM system, to me, is just not worth the hassle of maintenance....Carburators are the way to go.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2010, 10:08 AM
I provide engines with stock FI, programmable FI and Carbs..
I make the choice of which is the best to go with based on:
1-The purchaser's experience and skill level (I'll never give a newbie PEFI!)
2- Target engine output and desired displacement (If it's over 125HP or a 2056cc engine stock injection is out the window)
3- What I feel the purchaser's ability is to follow instructions
4- The application- if someone has a newly restored car they need simplicity because by the time the reach the engine install portion they'll be out of patience.
Lots of people live in a world filled with Unicorns and Rainbows and they want a system that falls into place, tunes intuitively and performs flawlessly.
Wen those guys come my way I tell them to go buy a new Porsche, because their 40 year old car isn't going to get them there here in the real world.
I like carbs and PEFI, I am not a fan of stock FI because it requires compromises related to engine design that aren't beneficial in any other way other than providing stock EFI compliance. Stock FI does have its place.
Posted by: Gint Nov 28 2010, 10:59 AM
Yikes... Just when you thought that the only thing worse than another 4 vs 6 or carb vs. FI thread, someone votes in and bumps is a 2 year old carb vs. FI poll thread.
Posted by: hashagen7 Nov 28 2010, 03:17 PM
I will gladly trade this for your carbs.
Posted by: chrisg Nov 28 2010, 09:12 PM
Maybe slightly off topic, but has anybody had problems with CA gasoline and carbs? I'm still not sure which way my L-jet stock 2.0 will go, but carbs run with CA gasoline have become a major PITA with my motorcycles if they sit for 2 weeks or so. I have not found an additive that works either. The small slow jets get jelled(?) gas that clogs them in that short period and the only way to fix it is to tear them down. I can't handle this if I decide to go with a motor combo that would dictate using carbs. I'm leaning towards a McMark/Jake 2056 with L-Jet but can't help wanting to go maybe 2270.
Posted by: '73-914kid Nov 28 2010, 09:20 PM
I was having the same problem for a while.. It's kind of just part of owning carbs with crappy gas..
I did try one thing that worked. a shot glass of Marvel Mystery Oil in every full tank of gas has kept the problem at bay for 2 months now... Maybe something to try..
Posted by: tradisrad Nov 29 2010, 09:56 AM
I like my d-jet set up. No cold start issues, starts in just a few cranks of the engine, good mileage, good power. Its been trouble free for 20 years.
Posted by: benalishhero Nov 29 2010, 10:10 AM
Chrisg, does CA have E10? We run it up in Maine. Napa fuel additive with ethanol treatment works quite well to prevent jelling. Part number is 7800 IIRC.
Posted by: Drums66 Nov 29 2010, 05:26 PM
I will gladly trade this for your carbs......Now that you put it that way....I'll stay with FI
carbs have their place ?(eat them all the time)
seriously they do have their place
I 2nd the worthless thread opinion!
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 5 2011, 12:14 AM
Chrisg, does CA have E10?
Evidently we do, as of this year. Last year, it was (generally) E6, but they changed it.
--DD
Posted by: ewdysar Jun 5 2011, 02:31 AM
Carbs are inherently better. That's why all modern car manufacturers use carbs to generate lots of efficient, reliable power. FI is just a fad.
(Getting ready to pul my SBC Holley 4bbl carb and install a MAF injection system.)
Posted by: ConeDodger Jun 5 2011, 08:04 AM
I voted for fuel injection...
There is nothing wrong with a well set up carb system. My motor is modified beyond what the factory fuel injection will respond to so I either have to go to carbs or aftermarket fuel injection. I want the control that fuel injection affords.
Posted by: SLITS Jun 5 2011, 09:31 AM
And the debate goes on and on and on and on ....
I'll take my 27 - 33 mpg and put up with fixing FI. If I want a sucking sound I will record it and play it through my stereo.
You can have your 12 - 17 mpg with carbs.
Posted by: patssle Jun 5 2011, 09:46 AM
And I do! I get 14 mpg in city driving with my old bus motor and dual Webers. Even with gas approaching $4 I was still driving it to work while my 28 city mpg Mazda 3 sat at home.
Posted by: 76-914 Jun 5 2011, 10:12 AM
FI baby. Why? #1 - When I was a 18 I worked in a carb shop. Even then (1969) it was obvious that carbs had run their course ( in stock applications).
#2 - I watched Lew (shewlew) piss and moan while throwing money at his carb set up over and over. Since he converted (or as they say in west TX "decided to get the shit out of his neck") to FI, I don't see him anymore. In all fairness to carbs I believe most of their complaints arise from improper application (ie the FI cam) or after market POS set ups. IMHO, I believe America was the only one to get carbs right. And towards the end we began to complicate them w/ centerflow technology or worse, internal non serviceable metering blocks.
Posted by: SirAndy Jun 5 2011, 09:54 PM
Yes ...
Posted by: al weidman Jun 6 2011, 10:07 AM
I'm an old guy and I would say it depends on either how smart you are or how much money you have. I am not smart enough to diagnose FI problems but there are plenty who can. My current 914 stopped on me five times and I had to be towed home each time. I replaced something different each time but it continued to stop. (just like someone turned off the gas) I put a set of del orto 40's on and have not had any problems since. By the way, last year at WCR I averaged 32 miles per gallon. It is a '75 2.0 with 195 X65 tires and runs at 75 mph at 3000 rpm. My original 914, that I special ordered new started having FI problems at about 1979. I put a set of 40 mm webers on it and it still has them and is owned by my friend Bob Scott in Washington. He would not sell me the car back when I wanted to get back in so I found my '75 instead. I do know several owners that have had their cars for many years without any problems. It all comes down to the reliability of the parts on your car and their failure or not. The new FI systems seem to be much more reliable, however, I would be behind the same tow truck if it broke. 
Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 6 2011, 12:13 PM
Well, after buying my 76 914 2.0l with Dell 40's on it in 95, I drove it for three years until I couldn't stand it any longer. Cold starts in Seattle sucked so I bought and re-installed the Djet without any of this Internet help available today. Best decision I made as its been trouble free since but it did have one CHT failure (wouldn't start in the driveway). That was a easy fix so I still don't understand why people say FI is so complicated and hard to fix as there is very few parts, its KISS.
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Jun 6 2011, 02:15 PM
I'm an old guy and I would say it depends on either how smart you are or how much money you have. I am not smart enough to diagnose FI problems but there are plenty who can. My current 914 stopped on me five times and I had to be towed home each time. I replaced something different each time but it continued to stop. (just like someone turned off the gas) I put a set of del orto 40's on and have not had any problems since. By the way, last year at WCR I averaged 32 miles per gallon. It is a '75 2.0 with 195 X65 tires and runs at 75 mph at 3000 rpm. My original 914, that I special ordered new started having FI problems at about 1979. I put a set of 40 mm webers on it and it still has them and is owned by my friend Bob Scott in Washington. He would not sell me the car back when I wanted to get back in so I found my '75 instead. I do know several owners that have had their cars for many years without any problems. It all comes down to the reliability of the parts on your car and their failure or not. The new FI systems seem to be much more reliable, however, I would be behind the same tow truck if it broke.
Nice wheels on that car. Where did you have them done?
Posted by: CrashDown Jun 7 2011, 07:49 AM
Carbs are inherently better. That's why all modern car manufacturers use carbs to generate lots of efficient, reliable power. FI is just a fad.
(Getting ready to pul my SBC Holley 4bbl carb and install a MAF injection system.)
I agree with the first aprt, but you get a
on that last partAnd the debate goes on and on and on and on ....
I'll take my 27 - 33 mpg and put up with fixing FI. If I want a sucking sound I will record it and play it through my stereo.
You can have your 12 - 17 mpg with carbs.
I have Redline 40's on my 914. i commute 50 miles round trip. When i drive my Subaru RS (non turbo) if i top off on monday i'm filling up thursday.
in the teener with the archaic, fuel wasting carb set up, if I top off on monday, i'm still going the following monday. I belive that's what people call in the judging community, a win.
Yes ...
I vot this for line of the day....
Well, after buying my 76 914 2.0l with Dell 40's on it in 95, I drove it for three years until I couldn't stand it any longer. Cold starts in Seattle sucked so I bought and re-installed the Djet without any of this Internet help available today. Best decision I made as its been trouble free since but it did have one CHT failure (wouldn't start in the driveway). That was a easy fix so I still don't understand why people say FI is so complicated and hard to fix as there is very few parts, its KISS.
You sir, are a good man. lulz
For me it was easy, 4 injectors at around 100 bucks a peice, plus rebuilding the entire FI system i used to have, that had flat spots, wouldn't idle right, horrible top end was going to be atleast a grand, and that was MY COST at work.
So i just got a set of brand new Redline 40's and it ran me $650..... it runs great, lots of low end, doesn't have flat spots, lots of aftermarket stuff you can do to change them.
if you want to compare the two in terms of colleges;
FI = Oxford, welcome to dullsville
Carbs = Chico state, THE Party school. Now show us your tits....
-Matt
Posted by: Bleyseng Jun 7 2011, 09:57 AM
$1000 to rebuild at YOUR COST at your work? Where do you work?
I agree with SLITS and couldn't put up with the sucking sound!
My MPG is around 30mpg on the freeway, in the city its a lot lower as I drive like its a AX reving to 6000 rpms thru the gears without any flat spots or crappy high end. Of course I do know how to tune Djet too by attending classes at the School of DIY.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 8 2011, 12:21 AM
I have Redline 40's on my 914. i commute 50 miles round trip. When i drive my Subaru RS (non turbo) if i top off on monday i'm filling up thursday.
in the teener with the archaic, fuel wasting carb set up, if I top off on monday, i'm still going the following monday. I belive that's what people call in the judging community, a win.
Funny, I would have called it "apples and oranges". Since the RS is heavier, has AWD (which takes energy to run), is not noted as a very efficient car, has a 2.5 liter engine, and what, a 10 gallon tank?
Versus the lightweight 914 with a 1.7 liter engine (or is it a 2.0?) with 2WD and a 16-gallon tank.
Tell me why you think that's a valid comparison again?
--DD
Posted by: ewdysar Jun 8 2011, 12:50 AM
Carbs are inherently better. That's why all modern car manufacturers use carbs to generate lots of efficient, reliable power. FI is just a fad.
(Getting ready to pul my SBC Holley 4bbl carb and install a MAF injection system.)
I agree with the first aprt, but you get a
on that last partif you want to compare the two in terms of colleges;
FI = Oxford, welcome to dullsville
Carbs = Chico state, THE Party school. Now show us your tits....
-Matt
My first line was tongue in cheek. I was referring to the fact that virtually all new cars are FI, even the high performance ones.
As for my 914 SBC conversion, the holley has been problematic with cold starts, high side load stumbling and elevation changes (regularly more than 5000+ ft differences). I'm switching to the Mass-Flo system that is becoming more common on the big and small block Cobra replicas. Truly self tuning, the only change that I would need for future engine upgrades will be if the engine exceeds the injector's 450 hp capacity. which is past where I plan on taking the car. Easy cold starts, high mileage when driven mildly, ready to run at any throttle setting and unaffected on a quick drive from sea level to 7,000ft. I just don't see a carb being that flexible. When this is done, my only car with a carb will be my Model T. But on that car, 100 year old technology, i.e. a carb, seems appropriate.
I don't believe that anyone will consider my car overly sedate (dullsville) after switching to FI.
Eric
Posted by: jzdu Jun 8 2011, 04:26 PM
If anyone is scrapping their D-jet, I need the auxilary air regulator. Please let me know if anyone wants to sell theirs.
Posted by: PRS914-6 Aug 7 2011, 09:18 PM
Well, the poll only asks FI vs. carbs so general question gets a general answer, not really 914 but general...
Years ago when FI first came out I didn't understand it.....it was voodoo to me. When I ran into problems I yanked it off and installed carbs. Had them all my life and they were easy to me.
Fast forward 30 years and you couldn't give me a carb.....You couldn't pay me to convert. Now I yank off carbs and install FI. I went all the way the opposite direction where I actually burn my own chips (Chevy) When you can drive down the road running your vehicle on a laptop making changes on the fly you realize the time savings and efficiency. Too lean in one area and you can richen it up with a click of the mouse. Ping in one area, retard the timing in that area with a click of the mouse. Want a faster idle, a mouse instead of a screwdriver! Too lean at warmup, easy to fix....all on the laptop. When you get it perfect, you burn the chip and you are done. It's unbelievable awesome to do tuning this way instead of jet changes and recurving distributors. Those are the positives. The negatives are one....a steep learning curve. Modern day electronics pretty much diagnose a bad component on their own (not our 914's)
The negatives of carbs.....
When the air/fuel mixture goes around a turn in a manifold it has a tendency to separate
Gaskets dry out when it sits
Warm up is problematic
Mixture gets heated in manifold
Big cams , their low vacuum and intake reversion drives you nuts
Don't adjust for altitude
Not accurate across the temperature spectrum
Don't adjust for a hot or cold engine or air temp
Float bowls are vented to atmosphere causing sludge when sitting
Lots of work to adjust for engine changes
Ice up without "preheat" air
A carb is perfect on Fred's car.....Personally, I would leave it there 
Posted by: GeorgeRud Sep 6 2011, 07:51 AM
though I love the look of my Webers, PRS914-6 hit it right on the head with his comments.
Posted by: stugray Sep 6 2011, 12:32 PM
Just curious then:
Why was the 914-6 GT racing car sold with carbs?
AND won 1st place in GT class at 24 hours of LeMans in 1970?
Musta been because FI was better, but they wanted the challenge of racing with inferior equipment.....
Just ONE of the answers is:
Because the carbs give an expert infinite (almost) adjust-ability.
But with 70s technology FI, you get what you get.
Now if the Poll had mentioned modern FI like the megasquirts, the FI wins hands down.
The stock FI on the 914 is an analog computer. Unless you know how to change the gains on Op-Amps, then you cannot change much at all.
If you increase displacement or change the cam you are stuck.
Stu
Posted by: FourBlades Sep 6 2011, 03:09 PM
EFI for a daily driver because of its sealed fuel systems that don't suck up water like carbs do. Florida is especially bad for this problem with its constant high humidity.
E15 is coming and will make fuel problems worse for daily driver cars with carbs.
I would like to move to EFI for my driver 914s and keep carbs on my 914 IMSA car in which I will run race fuel from sealed containers. Expensive, but you know what you are getting and it will not turn that many miles per year.
John
Posted by: Robert21 Feb 15 2012, 10:50 AM
It will be eight years with my 914 2.0 Had troble with FiI at first, until got new wires and brain , Have not had any ploblem since then. that was 7 years ago. If works leave it alone. Run every time. no tow trucks. Go 80 mph down the fwy no problem.
Posted by: gil914 Feb 15 2012, 12:58 PM
F.I. any day. My WRX has fully programmable stock and a programmable TEC-II (redundant F.I. no less) switch back and forth as needed. My 914-6 has programmable Autronic with individual stacks. The new 2.0 has Webers but I'm trying to find a working stock 74 DJET. If not I'll fake it and put a Megasquirt hidden somewhere.
The tripple and double webers sitting in the garage sure are pretty though....
Posted by: reharvey Feb 15 2012, 03:38 PM
[quote name='gil914' date='Feb 15 2012, 01:58 PM' post='1625932']
My D/jet 2056 with Webcam # 73 runs great but you need to know how to tweek the FI so it'll run well. I'm sure it's the same with carbs. So----maybe it's all in what a person knows how to work with. Ray
Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 15 2012, 04:55 PM
Just curious then:
Why was the 914-6 GT racing car sold with carbs?
Because that's what the street car was homologated with. If they could have put MFI on the motor and stayed within the rules, I'm pretty sure they would have done it. Most of the factory's full-tilt race cars used MFI at that time, and for quite a few years later.
--DD
Posted by: 914_teener Feb 15 2012, 09:09 PM
Just curious then:
Why was the 914-6 GT racing car sold with carbs?
Because that's what the street car was homologated with. If they could have put MFI on the motor and stayed within the rules, I'm pretty sure they would have done it. Most of the factory's full-tilt race cars used MFI at that time, and for quite a few years later.
--DD
Dave....homo what?
Nice.
Injection is great....it's the wave of the future don't ya know. My teener runs great with it. The car was homolagated with it...them German egeneers knew what they were doing.
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