Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Heat exchangers for a six
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 09:23 AM
I'm not 18 anymore & require heat in my car. I bought my six off the 914world classifieds 2 yrs ago & have found the car to be a blast, except in the winter. Very good for the air cooled engine, very bad for my bones. Obviously I have headers & I love the power, torque & sound I get out of them. I'd like to presume that the original heat exchangers were removed for the number 1 reason here on the East Coast... RUST & $COST$. I can live w/out A/C, but heat is a must. Suggestions? The six is sporting a high compression 2.7.
Posted by: type47 Oct 27 2008, 09:58 AM
i think there are some stainless steel HE (w/heat) but they are BIG money, if i recall, somethink like 1800 per side. I want to say made by or purchased from SSI (the people who do 911 SSHE's), but at any rate, from some company that advertises in popular magazines. I'd go to Auto Atl web site for a first attempt at a look-see.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 10:08 AM
i think there are some stainless steel HE (w/heat) but they are BIG money, if i recall, somethink like 1800 per side. I want to say made by or purchased from SSI (the people who do 911 SSHE's), but at any rate, from some company that advertises in popular magazines. I'd go to Auto Atl web site for a first attempt at a look-see.
I was looking @ Patrick Motor Sports, $2300
, but AA George said anything but the originals suck & rob power from the engine. Unlike the SS exchangers for the 4 bangers, noboby has reproduced an exact copy of the original sixers in SS. The ones in my 4, along w/ powder coated ducting, rock!
Posted by: jd74914 Oct 27 2008, 10:18 AM
Why would that be? The stock /6 ones were made for a low-power 2.0L. Stockers probably do heat better than most aftermarket ones, but in no way should using aftermarket models cause you engine power loss.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 10:29 AM
Why would that be? The stock /6 ones were made for a low-power 2.0L. Stockers probably do heat better than most aftermarket ones, but in no way should using aftermarket models cause you engine power loss.
If you compare the stock exchangers to the ones Patrick carries you'll notice all sorts of extra curves & bends on the stock ones. These equalize the exhaust pressure & maximize scavenging- a must according to Dr. 914 & Dr. Raby
. I'd love to go w/ the Patrick set, but for $2300 they had better be right.
Posted by: r_towle Oct 27 2008, 10:29 AM
i think there are some stainless steel HE (w/heat) but they are BIG money, if i recall, somethink like 1800 per side. I want to say made by or purchased from SSI (the people who do 911 SSHE's), but at any rate, from some company that advertises in popular magazines. I'd go to Auto Atl web site for a first attempt at a look-see.
I was looking @ Patrick Motor Sports, $2300
, but AA George said anything but the originals suck & rob power from the engine. Unlike the SS exchangers for the 4 bangers, noboby has reproduced an exact copy of the original sixers in SS. The ones in my 4, along w/ powder coated ducting, rock!Have you checked with SSI?
I think they are still making them, or at least have some on hand.
Also, check Rick at HPH...he probably has a few on the shelf.
Rich
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 10:32 AM
Have you checked with SSI?
I think they are still making them, or at least have some on hand.
Also, check Rick at HPH...he probably has a few on the shelf.
Rich
SSI? HPH? Websites? Thanks.
Posted by: r_towle Oct 27 2008, 10:39 AM
Have you checked with SSI?
I think they are still making them, or at least have some on hand.
Also, check Rick at HPH...he probably has a few on the shelf.
Rich
SSI? HPH? Websites? Thanks.
have you heard of Google...? Its a really simple tool.
I dont think SSI sells retail...they might.
HPH is Rick Bontempi in NorCal...hes a 914 nutcase. He has loads of 914 parts and he knows the best things to use...call both..dont email..this is old school guys.
Rick knows the SSI guys and does alot of business with them.
SSI
20 Pamaron Way Ste A
Novato, CA , 94949-6218
Phone: 415-883-2000
HPH
http://www.highperformancehouse.com/
Rich
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 10:50 AM
have you heard of Google...? Its a really simple tool.
dankeschön
Posted by: J P Stein Oct 27 2008, 11:01 AM
No SSIs for a 914/6.
From what I have heard, the pricey aftermarket SS exchangers have dubious fit & quality....kinda hit & miss. Whadda' ya want for 2300 bucks?
For a small port engine, their tubing diameters are too large to effectively scavenge....which hurts power. For a 2.7L with 35mm exh ports, you should have 1.5 dia tubing headers, for instance.
Posted by: GeorgeRud Oct 27 2008, 11:03 AM
Unless something has changed, SSI has never made a stainless heat exchanger for the -6. His products are works of art, and should be used whenever possible, but I think he never saw enough of a market to tool up for the 914-6 heat exchangers, though many have begged him to!
Someone was making some in Australia, but they didn't have any access holes for installing them onto the heads (making it a major pain). The original factory ones are available, though they make the aftermarket ones seem cheap.
Occasionally, some used ones come up on eBay, and can be used. It probably is a good idea to have a CO detector in the car if you do have some used ones, or drive with the top off in cold weather!
The other option is to install an Eberspacher gas heater. It will keep you very toasty, but I've only seen pictures of an install in a 914, and have never talked to anyone that actually had one.
Posted by: 9146986 Oct 27 2008, 11:31 AM
B&B makes some, but 3 out of 4 sets won't fit right. Unless you like to deal with returns/rework/return shipping, I'd try another brand.
GHL makes some, but I haven't seen those first hand. They will be the next I try if I do another car with a big engine that needs heat.
The factory heat exchangers work very well for engines up to, and including a 3.0. They have excellent flow. You might give up a little power on the top end, but not much. The much storied 215hp carb'd 3.0 in Bruce Anderson's book, was in fact in a 914-6 with factory heat exchangers.
It's very rare to find a set that doesn't need some repair to the heat shells. The exhaust pipes are close to the shells at the bottom which oxidizes the metal and helps it rust. For the most service life I recommend doing whatever repairs are needed and then getting them Jet-Hot coated.
It's also fairly common for the pipe to rust rear of the 3/1 merge. Years ago I built a set of jigs to repair this part for the left and right 6 heat exchangers.
Here's the GHL link: http://www.ghlmotorsports.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=91458H&Category_Code=PH-NT
B&B: http://www.bbexhaust.com/car/9689146/
Posted by: 9146986 Oct 27 2008, 11:49 AM
Here's a pic from the GHL website, the heater shells are much larger than the B&B's
Posted by: J P Stein Oct 27 2008, 12:07 PM
Here's a pic from the GHL website, the heater shells are much larger than the B&B's
Either there is some magic afoot or they are not equal (& proper) length headers.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 12:39 PM
B&B makes some, but 3 out of 4 sets won't fit right. Unless you like to deal with returns/rework/return shipping, I'd try another brand.
GHL makes some, but I haven't seen those first hand. They will be the next I try if I do another car with a big engine that needs heat.
The factory heat exchangers work very well for engines up to, and including a 3.0. They have excellent flow. You might give up a little power on the top end, but not much. The much storied 215hp carb'd 3.0 in Bruce Anderson's book, was in fact in a 914-6 with factory heat exchangers.
It's very rare to find a set that doesn't need some repair to the heat shells. The exhaust pipes are close to the shells at the bottom which oxidizes the metal and helps it rust. For the most service life I recommend doing whatever repairs are needed and then getting them Jet-Hot coated.
It's also fairly common for the pipe to rust rear of the 3/1 merge. Years ago I built a set of jigs to repair this part for the left and right 6 heat exchangers.
Here's the GHL link: http://www.ghlmotorsports.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=91458H&Category_Code=PH-NT
B&B: http://www.bbexhaust.com/car/9689146/
dankeschön
! The B&B ones look nicer than the GHL ones, which happen to look identical to the ones Patrick Motorsports sells
. Just got off the phone w/ "Lufteknic" & they claim there is a backorder for the SSI exchangers & wanted $250 deposit to put me on the list 
. In doing all this research I found someone who has 2 original sixes for sale... 
I must be insane cause I'm going to go look.
Posted by: Lavanaut Oct 27 2008, 12:53 PM
The original factory ones are available, though they make the aftermarket ones seem cheap.
I don't think this is true. George @ AA told me his last set is long gone and sold for $5k. If you know of another source for OEMs, do tell! But oh, uhhh...in private please.
Just got off the phone w/ "Lufteknic" & they claim there is a backorder for the SSI exchangers & wanted $250 deposit to put me on the list
Backorder for SSI heat exhangers for a /6? That's one list I'd highly advise steering clear of...
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 01:00 PM
I don't think this is true. George @ AA told me his last set is long gone and sold for $5k. If you know of another source for OEMs, do tell! But oh, uhhh...in private please.
, George told me the same thing. However, this is my thread so get in line!! Backorder for SSI heat exhangers for a /6? That's one list I'd highly advise steering clear of...
Again,
. They got none of my money. I asked them to get back to me to see where exactly I'd be on this list. 
Posted by: Lavanaut Oct 27 2008, 01:06 PM
Backorder for SSI heat exhangers for a /6? That's one list I'd highly advise steering clear of...
Again,
. They got none of my money. I asked them to get back to me to see where exactly I'd be on this list. What I was getting at is that, as others have already said in your thread (
), SSI has never made heat exchangers for the /6, and I've read that the owner has stated explicitly that he will not ever make 914 exchangers again. I think Andy had a conversation about it with him at one time.Anyone care to comment on this? If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first/last time, buuuut....
Posted by: PanelBilly Oct 27 2008, 01:08 PM
I'm not far enough into my car build to be looking for heat yet, but I will be. My plan was to build my own tin around a new set of pipes. I have to think that this has been done before. It can't be any harder than bodywork.
Any of you folks out there that has given this a try?
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 01:17 PM
What I was getting at is that, as others have already said in your thread (
), SSI has never made heat exchangers for the /6, and I've read that the owner has stated explicitly that he will not ever make 914 exchangers again. I think Andy had a conversation about it with him at one time. I seem to remember something along these lines myself. Also, I was wrong about GHL- they look nothing like the Patrick ones... quite shitty looking to be honest. Real a shame about the bad luck Perry had w/ B&B... best looking ones of the bunch. However in comparing the photos between B&B & Patrick Motorsports these look like they're made @ the same plant. This scares the
out of me.
Posted by: GeorgeRud Oct 27 2008, 01:19 PM
The difficulty is that you should not weld the outer envelope to the tubes, but rather should have a flanged slip joint to address expansion issues. Ideally, you would have to remove the mounting flanges, make the envelopes in two pieces, assemble and weld/fasten the outer surfaces together. Having the dies to properly flange the envelopes to the tubes is expensive.
To do it right is a major undertaking not to be taken lightly.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 01:39 PM
"Luftecnic", SSI distributors here on the East Coast, called back & confirmed there are no SSI exchangers for the six. Best looking ones are either Patrick or B&B. Only difference I can see is the O2 bunghole. GHL ones do not look very good. Photo order is Patrick, GHL & B&B.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: iamchappy Oct 27 2008, 02:45 PM
Or the Hayword and Scott. Which might be a pain to get to the flange nuts.
http://www.haywardandscott.com/Details.asp?ProdID=237&category=16
I have the stock HE's but have found that they dont work all that great with the turbo.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 03:30 PM
Or the Hayword and Scott. Which might be a pain to get to the flange nuts.
http://www.haywardandscott.com/Details.asp?ProdID=237&category=16
I have the stock HE's but have found that they dont work all that great with the turbo.
Whoa!
Those look fabulous!!! Thanks Chappy! Current exchange rate shows it to be $2351.13US + shipping. Patrick sells theirs for $2300 + shipping. I think I found my answer!!
Posted by: morgan_harwell Oct 27 2008, 04:09 PM
I'm looking forward to an actual owner/user of these aftermarket SS/6 HE's to respond with what they think about:
1. amount of heat generated
2. fitment issues
3. worth the $$$ ?
Should be quite a few aftermarket SS/6 HE's owners in the Pacific NW and Alantic NE.
I've been driving a heater-less /6 for the past 20 years. A heater sure would be nice as the 914 and I get older.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 27 2008, 04:25 PM
Unless something has changed, SSI has never made a stainless heat exchanger for the -6. His products are works of art, and should be used whenever possible, but I think he never saw enough of a market to tool up for the 914-6 heat exchangers, though many have begged him to!
John at SSI never made stainless heat exchangers for the /6 ... The market for such a product just wasn't there ...
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 27 2008, 04:27 PM
The other option is to install an Eberspacher gas heater. It will keep you very toasty
again ...Eberspächer or Webasto gas heater is the way to go!
Andy
Posted by: number6 Oct 27 2008, 05:10 PM
What I was getting at is that, as others have already said in your thread (
), SSI has never made heat exchangers for the /6, and I've read that the owner has stated explicitly that he will not ever make 914 exchangers again. I think Andy had a conversation about it with him at one time. I seem to remember something along these lines myself. Also, I was wrong about GHL- they look nothing like the Patrick ones... quite shitty looking to be honest. Real a shame about the bad luck Perry had w/ B&B... best looking ones of the bunch. However in comparing the photos between B&B & Patrick Motorsports these look like they're made @ the same plant. This scares the
out of me.The Patrick Motorsports is the Billy Boat. There's a B&B logo right on the page
I have a set of B&Bs on my car, but unfortunately, it's not back from the shop, so I can't really comment. My expectations are not high, though, from what I've heard from other owners. The Hayward & Scott ones look promising - does anyone here have experience with them?
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 05:34 PM
The Patrick Motorsports is the Billy Boat. There's a B&B logo right on the page
I thought so. Thanks. Hayward & Scott still have my vote.
Posted by: number6 Oct 27 2008, 05:43 PM
The Patrick Motorsports is the Billy Boat. There's a B&B logo right on the page
I thought so. Thanks. Hayward & Scott still have my vote.
If you get a set, will you post a review/follow-up? I'm with you in thinking the Hayward & Scott may be the winner. Time to scour the forums...
Posted by: iamchappy Oct 27 2008, 05:52 PM
Johny, if you contact them ask if they can make them in larger diameter -1-5/8, 1 3/4 or the mm equivalent.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 06:07 PM
Johny, if you contact them ask if they can make them in larger diameter -1-5/8, 1 3/4 or the mm equivalent.
Contacted today, waiting on a reply. Will ask about the larger diameters & if all goes well & I go for it, I will review.
Posted by: number6 Oct 27 2008, 08:24 PM
Johny, if you contact them ask if they can make them in larger diameter -1-5/8, 1 3/4 or the mm equivalent.
Contacted today, waiting on a reply. Will ask about the larger diameters & if all goes well & I go for it, I will review.
I shot them an email as well. Will share any info I get back. Johnny, will you do same? I'm not going to ask them about the larger diameter if you already did.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 27 2008, 08:29 PM
I shot them an email as well. Will share any info I get back. Johnny, will you do same? I'm not going to ask them about the larger diameter if you already did.
I did not ask about a larger diameter yet & yes I'll follow up regarding Hayward & Scott. I'm no longer interested in any of the other ones available.
Posted by: 9146986 Oct 27 2008, 11:41 PM
The Hayward & Scott have welds inside the heat shells. That's a big no-no.
Posted by: number6 Oct 28 2008, 04:29 AM
The Hayward & Scott have welds inside the heat shells. That's a big no-no.
Perry, could you elaborate on this?
Posted by: number6 Oct 28 2008, 04:33 AM
I did not ask about a larger diameter yet & yes I'll follow up regarding Hayward & Scott. I'm no longer interested in any of the other ones available.
Well, apparently I did, indirectly. This is the response I just received, along with 2 larger photos, attached:
Do you have 914 / 6 ? just wondered as you also mentioned a 3.2 but are
you transplanting the engine into the 914 ?. As for supercharging the
pipes would be far to small as standard ( 1.5" OD ) even for a 3.2 but
if you go ahead with the order and mention at the time we would enlarge
the pipes to accept the additional power ( 1.75" OD ). They are made
from BS304 16 SWG through out and the heat exchangers work very well
and we haven't had a complaints. :-) .
lead time at the moment is approx 4 -6 weeks and if you can give me your
full address we can get you a shipping price.
Thank you
Ian Reeve
Manager
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Root_Werks Oct 28 2008, 12:42 PM
I'm looking forward to an actual owner/user of these aftermarket SS/6 HE's to respond with what they think about:
1. amount of heat generated
2. fitment issues
3. worth the $$$ ?
Should be quite a few aftermarket SS/6 HE's owners in the Pacific NW and Alantic NE.
I've been driving a heater-less /6 for the past 20 years. A heater sure would be nice as the 914 and I get older.
1. Not much, low air flow
2. Good Fit
3. Nope
BB Stainless Steel units. Really great quality, but $2k for luke warm air sucked.
Posted by: SirAndy Oct 28 2008, 12:52 PM
The Hayward & Scott have welds inside the heat shells. That's a big no-no.
Perry, could you elaborate on this?
I don't see any welds on the headers, only on the air box itself, which is OK ...
AndyPS: However, the air box itself is small and barely covers a small part of the headers. I just can't see this setup producing any real heat.
PPS: And how are you supposed to tighten the exhaust nuts? I don't see any access holes.
Posted by: Root_Werks Oct 28 2008, 01:51 PM
There is a special wrench you can buy for VW/Porsche air cooled header nuts that would get those. I have one. Looks sort of like a funy "U" shaped wrench with a little "S" on the closed end of it. fits 13mm nut heads. It would get the above exhangers no problem.
I do agree with you Andy, I am not seeing much heat exhange area. Not even close to the factory units. I wonder if these produce any heat? 
Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Oct 28 2008, 02:01 PM
It looks like they use the same headers as Triad west. I wonder if I could talk Dave into doing something like this only having the exchangers go down the headers further.
Posted by: 9146986 Oct 28 2008, 02:22 PM
These came up in a thread about a year ago, and I sent them an email asking if there were any welds inside the heater shells, to which they said "yes, but we haven't had a problem". Sorry, wrong answer. Porsche abandoned any heat exchanger with welds inside the heater shells back in the 60's when a few people died.
Posted by: iamchappy Oct 28 2008, 02:27 PM
I would think a few well placed holes drilled into them could solve that problem.
Posted by: number6 Oct 28 2008, 03:01 PM
A follow-up response:
Yes we can make them in which ever size you wish but the 1.625 will
restrict the performance once you have super charged. The 1.75 will be
OK for the 3.2 as that is the size we make them for the 3.2 911. I
guess we could make them in 321 but 3o4 is just as good these days as
the arefazing 321 out and improving 304. We have real trouble getting 321.
Ian
Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 28 2008, 03:29 PM
Andy,
Whay I think Perry is referring to is having a weld on the pipe which resides inside the shells... not having the shells welded to the pipe.
If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take.
Mr. Al; why not find some factory HE's and simply have them fixed. A decent welder can patch the shells and you'll be good to go? They can be had for $6-700 but they'll need work. Pipes are excellent and they're a perfect fit. Paint them with the POR-20 Manifold Grey and you'll be good to go for another 20+ years.
Posted by: Lavanaut Oct 28 2008, 04:59 PM
If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take.
Soooo...what exactly is the danger? Noxious fumes from the exposed weld, or...?
Posted by: Root_Werks Oct 28 2008, 05:03 PM
If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take.
Soooo...what exactly is the danger? Noxious fumes from the exposed weld, or...?
Dis-similar metals, holes get corroded into the pipes and fumes get ported directly to you.
Posted by: number6 Oct 28 2008, 05:03 PM
I have the stock HE's but have found that they dont work all that great with the turbo.
Chappy, what is the OD of the stock HEs? How is the smaller pipe affecting your turbo setup? Is it insufficient at high boost, or any boost level?
Do you think the stock HEs would be ok for a NA 3.2? If so, and you ever decide to sell yours, please keep me in mind!
-duc
Posted by: iamchappy Oct 28 2008, 05:16 PM
Stock HE's will work with the 3.2 ok, i know there are a few on the board with this setup.
I think the stock pipes are 1 1/2, i have good low end grunt with the stock HE's but the turbo lag is horrible. With my headers i am building boost at 2800 rpms, and with the stock HE's around 4000, it hits hard and is still very strong maybe even more so than the headers up to 6400 rpms which is surprising to me.
Posted by: number6 Oct 29 2008, 03:47 AM
From Hayward & Scott, in response to my inquiry about welds inside the heat shells, as well as about heating performance:
They would have a weld where 2 bends are so close together that they
can't be made in one but the join is purged when welded so in other
words you get a nice neat strong weld on the inside as well as the
outside .The heat from the exchangers work extremely well as they are
basically the same size as we would put on a 911 3.2 ( i have them on
mind and they are very hot )and get very hot. If you look on a 993 they
are also quite small and work extremely well.
Hope this helps
Ian
Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 29 2008, 08:29 AM
If anything is wrong or goes wrong with that weld... what Dan said, you'll regret it for the rest of your life (actully, you'll just go out in your sleep and you probably won't have time to regret anything).
Posted by: luisqcosta Oct 29 2008, 06:35 PM
you can always try the source for these exhausts!
http://cgi.ebay.de/Porsche-914-6-Paar-Waermetauscher-restauriert_W0QQitemZ110303697543QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110303697543&_trkparms=72%3A1229%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
from germany! (how much would be shipping costs???)
hope i helped!
Luis
Posted by: morgan_harwell Oct 30 2008, 08:02 AM
Does anyone here use the GHLs?
The heaterboxes on the GHLs look to be as large as the stockers (which will roast you!).
I'm planning to add dual Cats to my exhaust system. The GHLs would make that pretty easy, by removing enough of the rear pipe to fit the Cats between the collector flange and the /6 muffler.
Posted by: Dr Evil Oct 30 2008, 03:53 PM
Hey Al, come April at the Hershey swap meet you can always find a set of stockers for $700-800. I had Root and John weld up a set that I was gifted right before I had them Jet hot coated. Cheaper and easier in the long run, IMHO.
Posted by: jim912928 Oct 30 2008, 05:26 PM
I purchased the GHL's however I don't know how they heat yet as it is part of my 3.2l conversion and I'm just at the point of getting ready to weld the RJ mount on my firewall. I have to say they were great to work with, didn't take long to get them and the workmanship looks great.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Oct 31 2008, 11:47 AM
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
What a thread!
I just got back last night form replacing my throw out bearing & starter in my pick up...
Today I wiped out in my Civic... . My fault- left rear tire was almost flat & I did not notice. Car kept pulling towards the left, I thought a caliper had locked up, since I had not driven the car in days, so I was trying to break it loose & slid off the road into a confield . Damage was minimal . 
as I write this.
E & Dr. Evil: I would not mind stock exchangers but I am very partial to stainless. I vividly remember riding around w/ my Pop in an exhaust filled 74 LE, which is why Pop parked the car & bought stainless exchangers in the first place. Now, w/ stainless exchangers & powder coated ducting, the heat is phenomenal in the LE. I would love to save some money, but have no idea what it would cost to repair & jet-coat exchangers. How long does jet coating last? I got a price from Ian for $2110.72US, including shipping. This was for 1.75" tubes.
Posted by: amallagh Dec 1 2008, 07:11 PM
Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ?
I've been looking for a set of heat exchangers myself but haven't been too keen on the BB & GHL versions. Similar to yourself I liked the look of the Hayward & Scott version which seemed the most similar to the originals but in stainless. They also look like they should flow OK. After some searching I've found a couple of people who have them in the UK and the reports of fit, quality and heat generated are good.
I see on here it has been commented about the preformed bends that are welded together to make the shape (you can see the construction technique in the plain 911 header set also produced by Hayward & Scott in the picture below). Some strong comments on here about this being dangerous. I would agree with this for carbon steel manifold tubes but with the thick gauge stainless used in the Hayward & Scott items it won't rust anyway. Not a problem as long as they are welded properly to start with, which is easy to check. The gauge of stainless tube that they use means that they can't form the tighter bends so they use preformed bends and weld then together on a jig. This is a time consuming way to make them but they say they would rather do this than use thinner gauge tube.
I've added a couple of pictures below that I got from a guy who bought a set 8 years ago. The area of enclosed header pipe in the heat exchanger boxes looks only slightly less then the originals. And another comment I have had from someone who has a set is that the heat generated is equal to his originals that he replaced. The picture of the set bolted up to the engine helps to show just how big the boxes are.
The costs of the Hayward & Scott items was the main problem for me when I was been able to find BB or GHL versions in the US for less than $1900 when I looked 12 months ago. Now that the £/$ exchange rate has moved to where it is, then this is looking less appealing anyway. And presumably £1300 for the Hayward & Scott items is looking more appealing to your guys in the US. My loss is your gain !
Ian is prepared to offer some more discount for multiple sets. He offered me £1170+vat for 3 sets or £1105+vat for 5 sets if we could rustle up the custom. I hoped he would go further but I haven't given up yet.
I am interested in one set but need the price to be lower then the std website listed price of £1300+vat to justify it. It's a lot of money to pay for a few winter outings given you guys are kind enough to send a load of Gulf Stream water to keep us warm each winter ! Many thanks !
Ian said to me the other day that someone from the US had ordered a set and someone else was thinking about it. Anyone on here ?
Anyone fancy combining forces to get the best deal for all ?
I'm sure Ian would accept orders separately to keep things simple if we could just get a group together.
(Ian can do them in different diameters as required)
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 1 2008, 08:08 PM
Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ?
Yes, I decided to go w/ the Hayward & Scott's & got a price of £1305.00 shipped. I ordered them w/ 1 5/8" tube diameter & 2.5" collector diameter. Now I'm just waiting on my order; should be 2 more weeks. Cost is high but I have no intention of ever selling the car & just want to enjoy it as much as possible.
Posted by: TedK Dec 1 2008, 09:25 PM
Their website says 1500 pounds before shipping, how did you get them to give you that price? I must say those do look nice, I am most interested in this product.
thanks
tk
Posted by: number6 Dec 1 2008, 10:01 PM
Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ?
I've been looking for a set of heat exchangers myself but haven't been too keen on the BB & GHL versions. Similar to yourself I liked the look of the Hayward & Scott version which seemed the most similar to the originals but in stainless. They also look like they should flow OK. After some searching I've found a couple of people who have them in the UK and the reports of fit, quality and heat generated are good.
I see on here it has been commented about the preformed bends that are welded together to make the shape (you can see the construction technique in the plain 911 header set also produced by Hayward & Scott in the picture below). Some strong comments on here about this being dangerous. I would agree with this for carbon steel manifold tubes but with the thick gauge stainless used in the Hayward & Scott items it won't rust anyway. Not a problem as long as they are welded properly to start with, which is easy to check. The gauge of stainless tube that they use means that they can't form the tighter bends so they use preformed bends and weld then together on a jig. This is a time consuming way to make them but they say they would rather do this than use thinner gauge tube.
I've added a couple of pictures below that I got from a guy who bought a set 8 years ago. The area of enclosed header pipe in the heat exchanger boxes looks only slightly less then the originals. And another comment I have had from someone who has a set is that the heat generated is equal to his originals that he replaced. The picture of the set bolted up to the engine helps to show just how big the boxes are.
The costs of the Hayward & Scott items was the main problem for me when I was been able to find BB or GHL versions in the US for less than $1900 when I looked 12 months ago. Now that the £/$ exchange rate has moved to where it is, then this is looking less appealing anyway. And presumably £1300 for the Hayward & Scott items is looking more appealing to your guys in the US. My loss is your gain !
Ian is prepared to offer some more discount for multiple sets. He offered me £1170+vat for 3 sets or £1105+vat for 5 sets if we could rustle up the custom. I hoped he would go further but I haven't given up yet.
I am interested in one set but need the price to be lower then the std website listed price of £1300+vat to justify it. It's a lot of money to pay for a few winter outings given you guys are kind enough to send a load of Gulf Stream water to keep us warm each winter ! Many thanks !
Ian said to me the other day that someone from the US had ordered a set and someone else was thinking about it. Anyone on here ?
Anyone fancy combining forces to get the best deal for all ?
I'm sure Ian would accept orders separately to keep things simple if we could just get a group together.
(Ian can do them in different diameters as required)
I'm pretty sure I'm the party "thinking about it" that Ian mentioned to you
and I'm still definitely interested. Though I won't know for sure probably until the end of this month, as my car is still not yet back from the shop. It's the welds inside the heat shells that's got me nervous, which is why I've been thinking about getting a set of stock HEs and having them restored/coated. Not the ideal solution for me, since I prefer the larger pipes and stainless construction. I did recently take my car for a quick spin, and the B&Bs did make a little heat, but it's hard to judge in this not-even-cold weather. Guess I'll have to wait and see under real living-with-them conditions.
Al, please let us know how your new H&S's turn out! From what's written above, it sounds like you're going to be very happy. After you make sure the initial welds are good, I assume!
-duc
Posted by: GeorgeRud Dec 1 2008, 10:08 PM
A good carbon monixide detector (used in small airplanes and RVs) would be an excellent safety item in either the new stainless exchangers or old repaired ones. This is not something to play around with!
Posted by: amallagh Dec 2 2008, 02:55 AM
Their website says 1500 pounds before shipping, how did you get them to give you that price? I must say those do look nice, I am most interested in this product.
thanks
tk
Ted, the price on their website is £1300+ VAT(17.5%)= £1527.50.
In the last few days VAT(Value Added Tax) has now been reduced to 15% in the UK. If Ian is sending them to the US maybe he does not have to charge you the VAT ?
Johnny, do you know if this is what Ian has done to give you the price of £1305 shipped ? I would be interested to know the breakdown of the £1305 between base price, tax (if any?) and postage if you know this ?
The 'leaking welds' thing does seem to have been mixed up with carbon steel items. Hayward & Scott have always made their huge variety of stainless manifolds, exhaust boxes and heat exchangers like this from component bends without a problem. As long as the item is fabricated properly to start with then it won't leak and can easily be tested during fabrication. Corrosion in use is then not an issue like it would be with any carbon steel items.
Regards
Andrew
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 4 2008, 03:14 PM
£1305.00 is the price Ian quoted me, including shipping. £130.00 was for the shipping. "VAT" is not applicable to a non resident/taxpayer so I was not charged w/ it. I believe they have lowered their price & did not update their website, but I'm not sure of this. In corresponding w/ Ian, I explained to him I could not order over their website, because I don't live in any of the English Counties listed on their order page. He understood & implied he's having difficulties updating the website.
I'm still waiting on the exchangers as they are being built. I hope I don't have to worry about CO2 or CO leaks w/ a new, stainless steel product. I am concerned w/ the difficulty of installation... might need a special 13mm wrench of some sort to tighten down the exhaust nuts. Does anyone make a ratchet box end wrench, that is also deep dish & small?
Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 4 2008, 04:34 PM
"Any" time you have welds hidden underneath your heat exchanger boxes I would follow George's advice.
It can be the best welds in the world but let's face it... these things can get hot and they bounce up and down under your car with the weight of the exhaust, road debry can hit them, etc. Things can and will change over time.
Please play it safe Al.
Posted by: thesey914 Dec 8 2008, 02:37 AM
I like the Eberspacher Idea. Cheaper than exchangers too. Has any one ever fitted one to a 914 (or any car)??
I know the 914-8 had one
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 20 2008, 10:44 AM
Well, the Hayward & Scott exchangers are on their way as of Monday. $1964.74US shipped to my house. Don't understand how the price is so low, but that's what I've been billed on my CC & I'm not complaining.
According to Ian, the units had to be tested for leaks before shipping... 
I've got my fingers crossed.
Posted by: number6 Dec 20 2008, 06:16 PM
Well, the Hayward & Scott exchangers are on their way as of Monday. $1964.74US shipped to my house. Don't understand how the price is so low, but that's what I've been billed on my CC & I'm not complaining.
According to Ian, the units had to be tested for leaks before shipping...
I've got my fingers crossed.Swweeet! Please let us know how they work out. My B&B are now confirmed no good in the heat department, so I'm really hoping this will be a good alternative to having to restore a set of original HEs. I definitely prefer stainless and don't mind running a CO detector as a precaution.
Hope the H&S are everything you expect and beyond!
-duc
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 24 2008, 06:42 PM
In writing w/ Ian the price I was quoted was less than it is on line & I fuched up & kept my mouth shut. I was told they would be shipped out this Monday. They were @ my door Tuesday around 4pm 
. Ian never said it would be an overnight delivery, which is why I was billed £130.00 for shipping. Had I inquired as to the breakdown of the billing, I might have paid even less & waited another month. Oh well...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: number6 Dec 24 2008, 07:15 PM
In writing w/ Ian the price I was quoted was less than it is on line & I fuched up & kept my mouth shut. I was told they would be shipped out this Monday. They were @ my door Tuesday around 4pm
. Ian never said it would be an overnight delivery, which is why I was billed £130.00 for shipping. Had I inquired as to the breakdown of the billing, I might have paid even less & waited another month. Oh well...Al, when will those puppies go on? Can't wait to hear what you report back. Here's to them working out as you hope! Happy holidays.
-duc
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 24 2008, 07:53 PM
Al, when will those puppies go on?
-duc
I have to finish getting everything I need to have heat- J tubes, black engine hoses & I'm not sure about the condition of my flapper lever & cable. I have 2 NOS bus flapper boxes that I have to re-weld the lever in the different position to make them work. Also have 2 new orange hoses for underneath. I need cable clamps, new exhaust gaskets for the block & muffler, new nuts & maybe new studs...
Posted by: number6 Dec 24 2008, 08:09 PM
Al, when will those puppies go on?
-duc
I have to finish getting everything I need to have heat- J tubes, black engine hoses & I'm not sure about the condition of my flapper lever & cable. I have 2 NOS bus flapper boxes that I have to re-weld the lever in the different position to make them work. Also have 2 new orange hoses for underneath. I need cable clamps, new exhaust gaskets for the block & muffler, new nuts & maybe new studs...
So tomorrow?
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 24 2008, 09:48 PM
Has anyone got a part number for the rubber gasket (giant o ring) that wraps the j tube in the engine tin?
Posted by: 9146986 Dec 24 2008, 10:56 PM
6's don't have that, and they don't have J tubes either. The heat set up on a 6 has paper hoses from the air nozzles on the fan shroud that go down to the heat exchangers. The paper hoses are a larger diameter than the ones that go from the 4 blower to the J tubes. It's late and I can't remember the right size. If you have the air nozzles then you can just measure them. Also the 3.0 and later engines don't have air nozzles on both sides.
Posted by: LarryR Dec 25 2008, 12:49 AM
In writing w/ Ian the price I was quoted was less than it is on line & I fuched up & kept my mouth shut. I was told they would be shipped out this Monday. They were @ my door Tuesday around 4pm
. Ian never said it would be an overnight delivery, which is why I was billed £130.00 for shipping. Had I inquired as to the breakdown of the billing, I might have paid even less & waited another month. Oh well...Wow those are sweet! I am planning on running headers initially to get my car running but those are now on the some day list.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 25 2008, 09:32 AM
6's don't have that, and they don't have J tubes either. The heat set up on a 6 has paper hoses from the air nozzles on the fan shroud that go down to the heat exchangers. The paper hoses are a larger diameter than the ones that go from the 4 blower to the J tubes. It's late and I can't remember the right size. If you have the air nozzles then you can just measure them. Also the 3.0 and later engines don't have air nozzles on both sides.
Thanks Perry, I did'nt know this. I do have nozzles on both sides. I still need that part number for the big rubber gromet- especially w/ a paper tube! Plus I need to replace them as well on the LE.
Posted by: 9146986 Dec 25 2008, 10:09 AM
Al, only the 4's have that grommet. The paper hose is larger than the J tubes. I'm pretty sure I've got some of those grommets in stock though. I'll PM you as soon as I get back to the shop. I'm hoping to play golf tomorrow! Forcast temp near 70 here in TN, been very wet though.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Jan 13 2009, 09:55 AM
Seems wanting some heat in my car is nickle & diming me to death. I got a VAT bill from fedex for an additional $48.50. Then, to add insult to injury, pelican screwed up my order & sent me 12 exhaust gaskets & billed me. Be nice if I had a 4.5litre flat 12, , & now I have to pay to ship 6 back just to get credited $30.00.
Posted by: PanelBilly Jan 13 2009, 10:57 AM
Come on now, get this done so we'll know if its the right thing for the rest of us.
Posted by: 6freak Jan 13 2009, 01:40 PM
Seems wanting some heat in my car is nickle & diming me to death. I got a VAT bill from fedex for an additional $48.50. Then, to add insult to injury, pelican screwed up my order & sent me 12 exhaust gaskets & billed me. Be nice if I had a 4.5litre flat 12,
, & now I have to pay to ship 6 back just to get credited $30.00.put the extras on the shelf( Gaskets that is) you will need them later after your valve ajustments and things like that....Save yourself time and money later down the road
Posted by: 9146986 Jan 13 2009, 06:43 PM
What I did on one conversion car was put the flapper boxes on the hard tubes coming out of the longs, and put the flex hoses from the heat exchangers to the mounted flapers. It did require grinding the welds off the arms for the flappers and re-indexing them so they worked properly. I also had to cut off the heater cable as it was too long to use the swaged ends, I just tightened them on the cable itself.
Posted by: morgan_harwell Feb 8 2010, 01:07 PM
>[Johny Blackstain, early 2009-ish].
>"Well, the Hayward & Scott exchangers are on their way as of Monday".
How well did the Hayward & Scott SS heat exchangers work out for you?
Did they fit well?
Do they heat well?
Was it worth your time & $$$ to find them?
Pictures?
While driving/shivering in to work this morning I thought of this thread.
--Moe--
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 8 2010, 02:25 PM
Great timing... I think Al's got about 3' of snow he can go run around in to test it out!
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Feb 8 2010, 04:31 PM
Here's a pic from the GHL website, the heater shells are much larger than the B&B's
Either there is some magic afoot or they are not equal (& proper) length headers.
These obviously in this configuration would completely rob the engine of power!
JOHN at Stainless systems said that the compound bending to get the exact length for performance would be very labor intensive to make and require a very large bender and therefore he will never make them. (he said when he was here visiting and showing me around a used set we have here)
With that said, Borla in Belgium has developed a set of 1.7 and 2.0 stainless heat exchangers that are dyno tested to give the exact horsepower as the original 914 heat exchangers, but in addition when mated to the custom muffler that they have built will give more. The problem is that the prices quoted for the setup were off the page.
They said that they could duplicate the original 914-6 heat exchangers in stainless and would if the demand was there, offering us exclusive distribution rights for both here in America. The problem was the price. Euros do not convert very well to dollars. How many of us would pay $1200 for a new set of 914 stainless heat exchangers when plenty of sets are still available every day on e bay for 165.00?
With that stated who of us would pay 3500.00 for a set of factory look 914-6 heat exchangers in stainless?
Posted by: PanelBilly Feb 8 2010, 04:51 PM
not I and I'm one known to waste money on such things
Posted by: Lavanaut Feb 8 2010, 05:48 PM
They wouldn't be flying out the door George but I bet they'd sell. That's a lot of cash but man, finding a decent set these days, having them repaired and finished - gets expensive. I think given the option plenty of six owners would be willing the shell out the big bucks knowing that their HEs will likely outlast their car. It doesn't hurt that ss HEs seem to be one of those few "acceptable" mods people do that don't hurt much come resale time.
Purely out of curiosity - how much demand would there need to be to start a production run, if you know?
Reid
Posted by: number6 Feb 8 2010, 09:32 PM
With that stated who of us would pay 3500.00 for a set of factory look 914-6 heat exchangers in stainless?
At this time, in this economy, I think my threshold is ~$2500-2700, shipped. If you can make that happen, George, I'm down for 1 set
Al, have you been able to test your H&S?
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Feb 9 2010, 07:38 AM
My lazy ass still has not put them in yet so I don't know yet. I just finished working on my motorcycle, my Civic & now I've spent the past month digging out of monster snow. I also fuched up when this 47yr old child, who was 5 in 1968, got involved in an on-line RPG that uses phasers & photon torpedoes . When I do get around to it I'll post & finish this thread.
Posted by: amallagh Feb 9 2010, 03:17 PM
I bought a set of the H&S heat exchangers in December 2008 and fitted them in spring 2009, so they have been on for nearly a year now.
The design of mine did not have the pipes crossing over in the heater box (compared to Johnny's which do) which means they have much better ground clearance and look completely flat.
Fit onto the head studs wasn't the best but with a bit of brute force we eventually managed to get them on. It was touch and go if they would need some minor rewelding to make them fit. Now they have been heated up a few times they have relaxed into the correct position so come on and off easily.
I had to send them back to H&S because they hadn't offset the 3 into 1 collectors so the primary headers were very different length. i.e the 3 into 1 collectors had been welded on the same distance from the rear flange connection to the rear box. They had been described to me as equal length headers. The design of the tube forms in the box doesn't make them equal length but having had the collector on one side repositioned then they are much closer in length then they were. Quality of the welding seems good and the rounded heater box design makes them look much better then some other aftermarket ones. The ground clearance is also excellent on my rally car. As for heating, then they are very good. Roof off motoring in the depths of winter not problem.
As for air flow performance then they seem OK. This was a concern given they are 'not quite' equal length primary headers but after the collector was repositioned there is only a few inches difference between the longest and shortest. I have a tuned 2.4 motor running PMO carbs (9.4:1 compression) and the power output on the rolling road was identical running on Bursch equal length headers as it is now with the H&S heat exchangers (202bhp). The power and torque curves are almost identical to what they were before with no flat spots.
Pluses -
Weld quality
Neat non boxy design
Good ground clearance (very important for me)
Excellent heat
Engine performance not affected compared to equal length Bursch headers
Cons -
Poor initial fit to head studs
Design is not quite equal length headers but not too bad with collectors positioned properly.
I was disappointed with them initially because of the fit and the fact I had to get H&S to move the collector, but now they are in and running I am very pleased with them. I am still not aware of another stainless 914/6 heat exchanger set I'd choose in preference as all the designs available seem to have some major shortcoming.
If George's idea of some stainless replicas of the originals had been available when I bought these then I'd have bought a set but still not sure I would have paid more than £1200.($1800)
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Feb 9 2010, 04:15 PM
They wouldn't be flying out the door George but I bet they'd sell. That's a lot of cash but man, finding a decent set these days, having them repaired and finished - gets expensive. I think given the option plenty of six owners would be willing the shell out the big bucks knowing that their HEs will likely outlast their car. It doesn't hurt that ss HEs seem to be one of those few "acceptable" mods people do that don't hurt much come resale time.
Purely out of curiosity - how much demand would there need to be to start a production run, if you know?
Reid
Reid 100 sets presold would do it. That is what they told me. Still have to deal with that TERRIBLE to buy exchange rate though
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Feb 9 2010, 04:19 PM
I will try to get and post a picture of the stainless four cylinder exchanger and muffler combination that Borla has come up with
With that stated who of us would pay 3500.00 for a set of factory look 914-6 heat exchangers in stainless?
At this time, in this economy, I think my threshold is ~$2500-2700, shipped. If you can make that happen, George, I'm down for 1 set
Al, have you been able to test your H&S?
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Feb 9 2010, 05:00 PM
Here is a picture of the four cylinder heat exchanger muffler system just developed for us by Bosal:
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)